homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Jeremy Corbyn out? (Page 22)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  ...  37  38  39 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Very good posts, hatless, esp. the long one above. There are so many contradictions in Labour at the moment, but I think Smith represents a retrograde step. Surely, he is a lightweight and a stalking horse.

I can see the problems with Corbyn, but I think he is going to be there for a while yet. I was looking at the meeting in Liverpool with 5000 people, and I think that is hard to resist.

One problem is the lack of alternatives. I think if an interesting and authentic MP stepped forward to oppose Corbyn, he/she would get support. But where are they?

As a footnote, my family are mad on Corbyn; whenever he is on TV, the room goes silent, and everybody listens avidly. This is quite something, but of course, not everything, and probably, not enough.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
We are not little children who need someone to adore or blame.
True, hatless. Idolatry and iconoclasm are a doleful pair of fashionable attributes in our modern world.

From an old Moody Blues song

quote:
I've been searching for my dream
A hundred times today
I build them up, you knock them down,
Like they were made of clay

Trouble is, sometimes we are all the builders up, sometimes the knockers down, sometimes both, particularly when disillusionment sets in.

Thangam Debbonaire's truly sad story is not a single, unfortunate, forgivable episode, but it is a series of episodes strung together, which paint the same picture. And that picture is reinforced by mdijon's other links.

It's hard to accept our common humanity, warts and all, be honest about our individual strengths and weakness. Sometimes we have to draw painful conclusions. Then the tide rushes in, and washes our castles away.

(edited for xposts and page turn)

[ 03. August 2016, 10:23: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm afraid my family's opinion of Corbyn is not so high. "A bit weird", "not up to much", "the most boring man in Britain" are example comments. YMMV, anecdotes are not polling.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I'm afraid my family's opinion of Corbyn is not so high. "A bit weird", "not up to much", "the most boring man in Britain" are example comments. YMMV, anecdotes are not polling.

Strangely enough, that's why I said 'as a footnote', since I agree that anecdotes are useless.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I'm afraid my family's opinion of Corbyn is not so high. "A bit weird", "not up to much", "the most boring man in Britain" are example comments. YMMV, anecdotes are not polling.

Strangely enough, that's why I said 'as a footnote', since I agree that anecdotes are useless.
Whatever. I don't think rallies of 5,000, or even 50,000 are any more significant. In 1983, Michael Foot ran an old-school election campaign, consisting largely of him "preaching" to large "congregations" in town halls, chapels etc. Every venue was packed to the rafters with adoring crowds, to the point where Foot was able to convince himself that the polls were all wrong and Labour would win by a mile. Not leaving your comfort zone is very dangerous.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I'm afraid my family's opinion of Corbyn is not so high. "A bit weird", "not up to much", "the most boring man in Britain" are example comments. YMMV, anecdotes are not polling.

Strangely enough, that's why I said 'as a footnote', since I agree that anecdotes are useless.
Whatever. I don't think rallies of 5,000, or even 50,000 are any more significant. In 1983, Michael Foot ran an old-school election campaign, consisting largely of him "preaching" to large "congregations" in town halls, chapels etc. Every venue was packed to the rafters with adoring crowds, to the point where Foot was able to convince himself that the polls were all wrong and Labour would win by a mile. Not leaving your comfort zone is very dangerous.
Well, I think large rallies are significant to some people. They may be wrong, as you say, if the polls show negatively, but I don't see a lot of members turning to Smith. If some people agree with Corbyn (to an extent), what are they to do, vote for Smith?

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I would encourage members to vote for whoever would be a good leader of the party, which means that I shall not be voting.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think one of the problems for Smith is that the coup by the plp, or part of it, was cack-handed and badly timed. So it's a bit weird to hear criticisms about incompetence from the same people. I think many Corbyn supporters are arguing that the polls were OK until the coup, and that the right-wing and centrists have basically sabotaged the struggle against the Tories; well, it seems impossible to prove that one either way.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Labour's polling has been dire for months. The Tories have recently had a "new leader boost", Labour never got one from Corbyn. There have been a handful of small Labour leads, otherwise it's been solid Tory leads since the general election (I believe in 95% of polls). Considering the Tories are a second-term government in mid term and have just perpetrated the most shocking political blunder since the Suez fiasco, this is remarkable.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And Suez affected Tory electability how?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And Suez affected Tory electability how?

It finished Eden's Career, and Labour had large poll leads immediately after Suez. Fortunately for the Tories an election was not imminent and McMillan had several years to turn things around.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Considering the Tories are a second-term government in mid term and have just perpetrated the most shocking political blunder since the Suez fiasco, this is remarkable.

This too has echoes of 1983. Thatcher was in full force with her dream to change the UK into a deregulated American style economy. Unemployment had passed 3 million as industrial output collapsed. The government was the most hated I can ever remember. The result was a Tory landslide. Down to only one thing. The total unelectability of Michael Foot's Labour Party. The Tories are now in their second term. The fiasco of this EU referendum is such that an opposition party should be riding high in the polls. Winning councils all over the country.

It isn't happening, and it won't as long as extremists are running the party. They appeal only to their own clique. The country doesn't want the likes of Corbyn, or the detestables like McDonnel or Ken Livingstone within a mile of power. Only when Labour gets this can it become a credible opposition and later government. If it starts the process now, there is hope before a 2020 general election. Otherwise prepare for the 18 years it endured in the wilderness last time around.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Exactly. And Eden was a shoo-in after Churchill. These things aren't comparable at all. ConservatISM is the natural party of government. I agree Corbyn hasn't got a cat in hell's chance one way and another, I don't care. Labour is the natural party of opposition until it goes conservative, as it would under the appalling Smith (would not have under John, God rest his soul).

If Labour don't find a way to roll out rent to buy they will have NOTHING to offer the working class in terms of its perception. They are expecting a reward for Brexit. They are that deluded. Poor buggers. And yes I know that a larger proportion of the technical and professional middle class voted Brexit.

Rent to buy SHOULD buy the entire working class and their dependents and the worse off than their parents children of the middle class. No?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Don't get too hung up on Suez, Martin60. I was only using it to put recent events in context.

If Labour ever resigns itself to being the natural party of opposition, I will be leaving. Politics has to mean more than going on demos and sticking your tongue out at the Tories.

Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ah come on Rocinante, I'm re-entering my baby Bolshevik second childhood! I'll be reading And Quiet Flows The Don again next! Followed by A Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich of course.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
leftfieldlover
Shipmate
# 13467

 - Posted      Profile for leftfieldlover         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich of course. [/QB][/QUOTE]

A book I read every year. Superb and moving. Every four or five years I re-read The First Circle.

Posts: 164 | From: oxford | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's been on my mind A LOT this year. Introduced my youngest to the former on Youtube late one night two years ago, the Tom Courtenay (Eric Magic Roundabout Thompson!) film. Did the trick.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
A Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich of course.

Continuing the wild tangent to say I reread this a few months ago. It confirms my theory that while there are many variables, the prison experience also features many constants across the ages, continents, and political systems.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ah, Ivan Denisovich! My intro to Solzhenitsyn. Denisovich, who survived by being bad at floor washing and brilliant at bricklaying.

What were we talking about? Oh yes. I agree with Doublethink. Jeremy is not a communist. I just wish he wasn't so prone to dropping bricks.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am interested in what happens after the leadership election. What are the most likely possibilities? Just supposing Corbyn gets in with an increased majority (as currently seems likely) what do JC's supporters hope will happen?

Best case scenario? - few or no Labour MPs leave to form / join another party. Those who don't regard the result as legitimate (there will be some), are deselected or they are quickly informed they will probably be deselected come the next election - sadly MPs who know they are out of a job in 4 years time could do a great deal of damage. However, most of the MPs try - with varying degrees of success - to start being more loyal than Corbyn ever was to previous leaders. The NEC is radically overhauled - to reflect the JC's vision.

I think this scenario won't be easy to sell on the doorsteps and will be depicted appallingly by the Tories / the press (why does Labour make the Tories job so easy?) It will be easy to portray JC's Labour as a bullying cult that tolerates no dissent.

The positive (for me) would be Corbyn supporters would have to stop blaming the PLP for every failure of the Labour party.

Worst case scenario: the party splits - in spirit or in actuality - with many MPs forming an alternative party in power*. The left is split for a generation and the Tories get a majority of around 100. A majority so large it cannot realistically be turned around in 2025.

Admittedly I can't see either Owen Smith or Corbyn winning in 2020. Even keeping the Tory majority to roughly where it is now, will be quite a challenge. (Most Psephologists would probably agree.) However, Smith (should he win) would have a much better chance of keeping the party together. He already has the goodwill of the PLP and he would also have the support of most of the members.

I also think he has done ok so far - I am not wild about him. But then I wasn't wild about Corbyn or any of his challengers. And I really see Corbyn winning as deeply destructive to the very fabric of the Labour party - it isn't about how left he is. I think the left wing Clive Lewis has the potential to do a much better job.

I will vote for Owen Smith as a tactical vote because I don't want the left to be split for a generation - which is all too possible if JC wins.

So come on - what is the best outcome? Even the best case scenarios sound pretty bleak to me!

*They could even be given the privileges of having the second largest number of MPsand be regarded as the official opposition.

[ 03. August 2016, 18:52: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
If some people agree with Corbyn (to an extent), what are they to do, vote for Smith?

They have to decide if Corbyn's appeal to a particular group is more important than immediate electability. Personally I think it's pretty finely balanced - the appealing and principled but impractical and failing versus the unappealing, apparently unprincipled with a dash of practicality but untested. Hobson would not be jealous.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
If some people agree with Corbyn (to an extent), what are they to do, vote for Smith?

They have to decide if Corbyn's appeal to a particular group is more important than immediate electability. Personally I think it's pretty finely balanced - the appealing and principled but impractical and failing versus the unappealing, apparently unprincipled with a dash of practicality but untested. Hobson would not be jealous.
I can see what you are saying. I must admit I have a problem with principled. People who stick to their principles come what may, will struggle to build bridges with others as that would mean compromise. Whilst compromise is regarded as a dirty word by some, I think the vast majority of the electorate know that compromise is an important part of everyday life as it means we can actually get things done.

As Maynard Keynes may have said: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?" Anyone who thinks politics can be done without compromise is deluded.

[ 03. August 2016, 19:02: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
People who stick to their principles come what may, will struggle to build bridges with others as that would mean compromise.

Yes, we like principled politicians until we don't like them. It's a two-edged sword.

It is a horrible and undeserved parallel, but I see something slightly Ayatollah-Khomeini-esque in Corbyn. It is the combination of the unflinching, calm expression, complete belief, unwavering conviction and seriousness and deliberate and measured mode of speech while outlining forthright views. A white beard and principles.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
People who stick to their principles come what may, will struggle to build bridges with others as that would mean compromise.

Yes, we like principled politicians until we don't like them. It's a two-edged sword.

It is a horrible and undeserved parallel, but I see something slightly Ayatollah-Khomeini-esque in Corbyn. It is the combination of the unflinching, calm expression, complete belief, unwavering conviction and seriousness and deliberate and measured mode of speech while outlining forthright views. A white beard and principles.

One of the things that makes me smile is when people claim they want politicians to stick to their manifesto commitments. What they seem to mean is they want them to stick to the policies they agreed with and ditch the ones they didn't like.

I also presume they actually want the politicians to respond to events.

[ 03. August 2016, 19:26: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think one of the problems for Smith is that the coup by the plp, or part of it, was cack-handed and badly timed. So it's a bit weird to hear criticisms about incompetence from the same people.

I think the incompetence and cackhandedness you mention are largely the responsibility of whoever drew up the rules in such a way as to allow the possibility of a Parliamentary leader with no support from the people he's supposed to lead. Which AIUI makes the NEC incompetent, rather than the PLP.

Regarding timing: you think that a leadership challenge should not happen while the Tories are in disarray, because it's passing up a chance to exploit Tory chaos. Surely the alternative is to launch a challenge when the Tories are functional and therefore able to exploit *Labour* chaos. I don't see how that's better. Remember that at the time it was predicted that the Tories would be leaderless until September.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the incompetence and cackhandedness you mention are largely the responsibility of whoever drew up the rules in such a way as to allow the possibility of a Parliamentary leader with no support from the people he's supposed to lead. Which AIUI makes the NEC incompetent, rather than the PLP.

Who was it who nominated a man they would never vote for because they thought a left-wing representative ought to be on the ballot (so their candidate looked better when he or she won)? Why, yes - it was a number of members of the PLP.

If the stupid idiots had stuck to nominating a candidate they would actually vote for then Corbyn wouldn't have made it on to the ballot, and we'd be sitting around discussing Andy Burnham.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
If some people agree with Corbyn (to an extent), what are they to do, vote for Smith?

If people are serious about providing an alternative to the economics of austerity, they might want to ask why the economists whom Mr Corbyn appointed to help him draw them up now back Mr Smith:
quote:
Originally posted by David Blanchflower:
Blanchflower, who is advocating a 5% cut in VAT, also said Smith had been better at consulting businesses and economists in three weeks than Corbyn’s leadership had over the last nine months.



--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the incompetence and cackhandedness you mention are largely the responsibility of whoever drew up the rules in such a way as to allow the possibility of a Parliamentary leader with no support from the people he's supposed to lead. Which AIUI makes the NEC incompetent, rather than the PLP.

Who was it who nominated a man they would never vote for because they thought a left-wing representative ought to be on the ballot (so their candidate looked better when he or she won)? Why, yes - it was a number of members of the PLP.

If the stupid idiots had stuck to nominating a candidate they would actually vote for then Corbyn wouldn't have made it on to the ballot, and we'd be sitting around discussing Andy Burnham.

Clearly Andy Burnham didn't want to go through it again. Who should the PLP have nominated then?
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think one of the problems for Smith is that the coup by the plp, or part of it, was cack-handed and badly timed. So it's a bit weird to hear criticisms about incompetence from the same people.

I think the incompetence and cackhandedness you mention are largely the responsibility of whoever drew up the rules in such a way as to allow the possibility of a Parliamentary leader with no support from the people he's supposed to lead. Which AIUI makes the NEC incompetent, rather than the PLP.

Regarding timing: you think that a leadership challenge should not happen while the Tories are in disarray, because it's passing up a chance to exploit Tory chaos. Surely the alternative is to launch a challenge when the Tories are functional and therefore able to exploit *Labour* chaos. I don't see how that's better. Remember that at the time it was predicted that the Tories would be leaderless until September.

Exactly!
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Clearly Andy Burnham didn't want to go through it again. Who should the PLP have nominated then?

My point was that (part of) the PLP caused this problem last year, by acing like a bunch of idiots and nominating Jeremy Corbyn when they didn't want him to win.

The nomination stage is the point where the PLP gets to have their say. If you start voting against your own interest because you think the other guy deserves a look-in as well, it's your own bloody stupid fault when you get stuck with the other guy.

If they hadn't acted like idiots, Corbyn wouldn't have made the cut, and the party would have elected Andy Burnham.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Clearly Andy Burnham didn't want to go through it again. Who should the PLP have nominated then?

My point was that (part of) the PLP caused this problem last year, by acing like a bunch of idiots and nominating Jeremy Corbyn when they didn't want him to win.

The nomination stage is the point where the PLP gets to have their say. If you start voting against your own interest because you think the other guy deserves a look-in as well, it's your own bloody stupid fault when you get stuck with the other guy.

If they hadn't acted like idiots, Corbyn wouldn't have made the cut, and the party would have elected Andy Burnham.

Fair enough, but I do accept the argument that it was good to widen the debate. Yes they were naive - it really was the law of unintended consequences. We have all made that mistake many times in life - I'd have thought.

However, having got a leader they didn't want, from what I have seen the majority felt they'd have to try to work with him until either he proved them wrong or he proved to himself that he wasn't up to the job.

How on earth could they have anticipated he'd have been so incompetent* and so arrogant / stubborn.** A lethal combination.

*See numerous examples: I will go with his response to the Paris shootings.
** Most politicians understand that carrying both your PLP and your members is important. Certainly any Tory would have, but then they understand electability.

[ 03. August 2016, 22:24: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Clearly Andy Burnham didn't want to go through it again. Who should the PLP have nominated then?

My point was that (part of) the PLP caused this problem last year, by acing like a bunch of idiots and nominating Jeremy Corbyn when they didn't want him to win.

The nomination stage is the point where the PLP gets to have their say. If you start voting against your own interest because you think the other guy deserves a look-in as well, it's your own bloody stupid fault when you get stuck with the other guy.

If they hadn't acted like idiots, Corbyn wouldn't have made the cut, and the party would have elected Andy Burnham.

Answering this and your previous post - IIRC, the PLP gave Corbyn only a vote or 2 more than the absolute minimum needed to get onto the ballot paper, somewhere around 20% of the membership. Then all over the country, people started paying their 3 pounds to beome members of the party and voted for Corbyn. The result of the present poll will be the same, with the PLP voting solidly against Corbyn and enough in the wider party to get him over the line.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Then all over the country, people started paying their 3 pounds to beome members of the party and voted for Corbyn. The result of the present poll will be the same, with the PLP voting solidly against Corbyn and enough in the wider party to get him over the line.

Just to correct one possible misinterpretation of what you said above. In last year's leadership election Corbyn would won a majority even if you discount the £3 votes.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
AFAIK that is true. This recent poll suggests that he would lose with pre-Corbyn era members but with those paying £3 or £25 he'll win easily. Here

[ 03. August 2016, 22:54: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry for the double post. On the subject of the coup - don't know if this has been posted before but this is the most credible version of it I have come across. At least it avoids the more ridiculous conspiracy theories. Click

[ 03. August 2016, 22:58: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Clearly Andy Burnham didn't want to go through it again. Who should the PLP have nominated then?

My point was that (part of) the PLP caused this problem last year, by acing like a bunch of idiots and nominating Jeremy Corbyn when they didn't want him to win.

The nomination stage is the point where the PLP gets to have their say. If you start voting against your own interest because you think the other guy deserves a look-in as well, it's your own bloody stupid fault when you get stuck with the other guy.

If they hadn't acted like idiots, Corbyn wouldn't have made the cut, and the party would have elected Andy Burnham.

Answering this and your previous post - IIRC, the PLP gave Corbyn only a vote or 2 more than the absolute minimum needed to get onto the ballot paper, somewhere around 20% of the membership. Then all over the country, people started paying their 3 pounds to beome members of the party and voted for Corbyn. The result of the present poll will be the same, with the PLP voting solidly against Corbyn and enough in the wider party to get him over the line.
All sections of the membership, including full party members, voted for Corbyn by some distance - it is not true to say he won the leadership via the £3 supporters.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Speaking as someone who voted for Corbyn, and probably will again - it is not so much about Corbyn personally, as about the political direction he represents. If Smith wins the leadership election, I have no confidence he will promote a left wing policy platform for any length of time. Corbyn losing would become to the excuse to say, oh everyone has changed their mind - we can forget about that now.

Corbyn's election has already changed the political debate, even the tories are talking about ideas that they haven't even bothered to pay lip service to for decades.

And like many members, I am furious with the shadow cabinet for letting down, not just labour, but the country at a crucial moment. I don't ever want to see a front bench try that again - and therefore I don't want it to succeed.

Even if Corbyn were re-elected then resigned a few months later, it would be better than their having behaved in such a totally irresponsible way and then been directly rewarded for it.

Moreover, Owen Smith is not more electable of effective than Corbyn. And therefore giving my vote to him is even more futile.

Most,of the problems described about Corbyn come down to needing a better press team, having to jump from backbench to front bench in five seconds flat, and what looks like expecting to be able to delegate.

Jamie Reed's objections to his cabinet meetings seemed to boil down to - he didn't tell us what to do. That is an expectation from a very specific type of model of leadership, there are others.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What is irritating about this is absolutely none of these complainants talk about trying to do anything meaningful about the issues. You are not happy with his performance at the dispatch box - OK so what constructive suggestions did you make about that ? When they say they tried to make it work, I see little evidence of that.

Take Lillian Greenwood's example, why the leadership reshuffle on that date - well because the party had been leaking it to the press for weeks building up pressure for it to happen - why did take so long, because the plp were playing silly buggers about not being prepared to serve under Corbyn.

Moreover, what is the point of doing the kind of operation she describes about rail fares she describes ? Everybody already knows rail fares are fubar. And then she was trying to prep 'lines' for interviews - part of the point of a politician like Corbyn is that they avoid sound bite politics. Though I notice he is gradually getting pushed in that direction.

I have far more sympathy with her comments re hs2 negotiations.

I don't think Corbyn is perfect, but I think he is our current best option - I also think we would be doing a lot better in the polls if the plp stopped shooting us repeatedly in the foot, they are creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

My best case scenario currently is, Corbyn wins - plp therefore agree to serve in cabinet, on the proviso that he replaces his press team. Policy manifesto then finalised at conference, including the post-brexit party position. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there are technical solutions that could be used to improve working practices and relationships across the plp and its leadership. (I also think that might benefit from a balint group, but I doubt they will do that.)

I support unilateral nuclear disarmament, and Imwould like to see the party adopt that at conference, I think they would have more chance of convincing the British public if they drew on military professionals who support this in making there case - rather than solely justifying it on humanitarian grounds.

I think you address the immigration issue by agreeing a points system - even though we don't like it. But making a point of isolating the problem, and proposing a solution: e.g. You have said the problem is waiting times for a doctors appointment, we will tackle this problem by doing x, you have said multi-occupancy housing is a problem, we will do y. We will pay for x from this bit of the budget, and y from this bit of the budget etc etc

Essentially demonstrating these problems arise from political choices that have little to do with immigration.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
When they say they tried to make it work, I see little evidence of that.

What evidence would you see?

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Take Lillian Greenwood's example, why the leadership reshuffle on that date - well because the party had been leaking it to the press for weeks building up pressure for it to happen - why did take so long, because the plp were playing silly buggers about not being prepared to serve under Corbyn.

Moreover, what is the point of doing the kind of operation she describes about rail fares she describes ? Everybody already knows rail fares are fubar. And then she was trying to prep 'lines' for interviews - part of the point of a politician like Corbyn is that they avoid sound bite politics. Though I notice he is gradually getting pushed in that direction.

I have far more sympathy with her comments re hs2 negotiations.

I think this misses the point. You can find excuses for individual items in the list, but her story is only one, but the point is he did lose someone who looks like they were "trying to make it work".

If Corbyn didn't like her line he needed to talk to her and get an agreed alternative position at a reasonable point in the process so that she wasn't apparently hearing about a new policy in the press. The sort of politician who just speaks their mind with no negotiation and no prior discussion is also the sort of politician that a team are going to find it very hard to work with. And there is a general theme of disorganization and disengagement in all these stories.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Who was it who nominated a man they would never vote for because they thought a left-wing representative ought to be on the ballot (so their candidate looked better when he or she won)? Why, yes - it was a number of members of the PLP.

I take your point, but what I was trying to get at was that the PLP looks ineffective because the rulebook currently gives them no means of being effective.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Most,of the problems described about Corbyn come down to needing a better press team, having to jump from backbench to front bench in five seconds flat, and what looks like expecting to be able to delegate.

I would suggest that if the leader is making policy announcements without consulting the relevant shadow ministers, then his problem is probably not 'expecting to be able to delegate'.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Most,of the problems described about Corbyn come down to needing a better press team, having to jump from backbench to front bench in five seconds flat, and what looks like expecting to be able to delegate.

I accept my error in the voting last time around.

I don't agree with this. Yes, it is a problem that he had to jump from the back bench to the front, but why had he been on the backbench so long? One reason is his continued disloyalty to voting decisions. But the real issue is that Corbyn has shown little ability to develop policies. He's great on ideas and aspirations, but shows no comprehension how those are to be translated into reality. He has not yet shown an understanding of the need to articulate his positions carefully and without leaving hostages to fortune.

It's a bit of chicken and egg perhaps - was he left on the backbench because of his lack of some very necessary abilities, or vice versa? I think it's probably the former, but the sad truth is that over his time as leader, he has shown as little understanding of the demands of his position as Trump is in the US. A very odd couple.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think it was reasonable to hope he would make the leap. Clearly many in the PLP didn't think he could and were totally against him, but for outsiders it was hard to see what the evidence was.

Now that we see the collection of stories from shadow ministers who seem to have tried but just haven't had the right level of engagement it seems clearer that he isn't able to lead a party.

If there is a problem with not being able to delegate it seems to be to do with not wanting to let others develop or contribute to policy, probably because of an unwillingness to negotiate so that it is a team effort rather than a decision taken by him and a few like-minded friends.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Doublethink - read both of your posts... twice. Thanks for a much more detailed and reasoned explanation of your pro-Corbyn position than is normal on social media. I'll respond later if I have time.

However, on the question of electability. Just look at all the elected leaders of our country over the past 100 years. No look wider, look at the elected leaders of similar democracies over the past 50 years. How many times have they elected an out and out pacifist?

Now look at how Corbyn questioned the shoot to kill policy at the time of the Paris shootings - he couldn't be arsed to be well-informed on current police policy even though he brought the subject up. (Yet more evidence of his incompetence.)

One of my non-political friends thought he came across as someone who in the middle of a terrorist attack would be phoning up the chief of police to check they weren't doing anything that might go against his 'precious principles'. Absurd I know - but you get the point.

Most people don't list all the policies and work out if they are right wing or left wing enough. They ask two simple questions: is this person going to be a safe pair of hands in a time of crisis; and do I trust them with the economy. In the current context, are the British public willing to trust Corbyn to lead us in a time of crisis. I think the answer will be a resounding no.

As to whether Owen Smith is more electable. We don't know yet - though he would almost certainly get a new leader bounce. However, I find it hard to believe that he could make himself even more un-electable than Corbyn.

[ 04. August 2016, 08:39: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think it was reasonable to hope he would make the leap. Clearly many in the PLP didn't think he could and were totally against him, but for outsiders it was hard to see what the evidence was.

Now that we see the collection of stories from shadow ministers who seem to have tried but just haven't had the right level of engagement it seems clearer that he isn't able to lead a party.

If there is a problem with not being able to delegate it seems to be to do with not wanting to let others develop or contribute to policy, probably because of an unwillingness to negotiate so that it is a team effort rather than a decision taken by him and a few like-minded friends.

To add to your very valid points. Three reasons I think there is good reason to think that most of the PLP were trying to make it work. The number of interviews I saw where the Labour spokesperson spoke very carefully so that differences within the party were minimised. Put simply they worked very hard at covering Corbyn's back.

Also many spent weeks / months working incredibly hard on policies - some of which were undermined by Corbyn flying by the seat of his pants. We never heard of them at the time: they were very patient and discreet. We have only heard of them since the leadership election and all patience has run out.

Thirdly, the PLP knew that he had been elected as a leader and was popular with the young idealists and the old-fashioned left. They knew they had to work with him and try to make it work for the sake of the party and their own jobs. The only reason this all changed was Brexit. The utter despair at both his campaigning (which was the straw that broke the camel's back for me) and his appalling decision making - announcing triggering article 50 without consulting or telling anyone else.

[ 04. August 2016, 09:26: Message edited by: Luigi ]

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
All that rings true Luigi and mdjohn.

If only the Lib Dems hadn't sold out to the Tories this would have been their hour. Tho if they hadn't done that Brexit wouldn't have happened, the referendum wouldn't have happened.

Ho-hum, 'what ifs' help no-one.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
All that rings true Luigi and mdjohn.

If only the Lib Dems hadn't sold out to the Tories this would have been their hour. Tho if they hadn't done that Brexit wouldn't have happened, the referendum wouldn't have happened.

Ho-hum, 'what ifs' help no-one.

I'll be honest Boogie. If the Libdems apologised for that rubbish about Labour crashing the economy. And accepted that Coalition Economic policy was with hindsight misguided - particularly in the first two / three years - I might even consider voting for them myself.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As long as Jeremy's half trillion anti-austerity plans include a massive rent to buy programme, perfect.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

If only the Lib Dems hadn't sold out to the Tories this would have been their hour. Tho if they hadn't done that Brexit wouldn't have happened, the referendum wouldn't have happened.

An EU referendum was, of course, a Lib Dem manifesto commitment (and in opposition Lib Dem MPs even marched out of the House of Commons when they couldn't get one). That was before they decided that holding a referendum was the worst idea ever.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

If only the Lib Dems hadn't sold out to the Tories this would have been their hour. Tho if they hadn't done that Brexit wouldn't have happened, the referendum wouldn't have happened.

An EU referendum was, of course, a Lib Dem manifesto commitment (and in opposition Lib Dem MPs even marched out of the House of Commons when they couldn't get one). That was before they decided that holding a referendum was the worst idea ever.
Indeed - at one point the Lib Dems were the only main party offering a referendum on EU membership. This, like the abolition of tuition fees, is the sort of thing third parties say when they want to get populist headlines and (despite what they say to the contrary) don't expect to be in a position to act on it... Rearrange own by petards hoist.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  ...  37  38  39 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools