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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The thing that amuses/amazes me is that the PLP, or the Blairites and Brownites, look astonishingly shambolic. Their coup has been ham-fisted, witness the to-ing and fro-ing of Angela Eagle, then Smith turns up and announces he is as left-wing as Corbyn! Eh?
Add to this the bricks through office windows, which weren't, the offices broken into, which weren't, the legal appeals on their own gerrymandering, the timing of the coup, when the Tories were in disarray. WTF is going on? They make Corbyn look like an icon of smooth efficiency. Is it panic?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is it panic?
Probably. Almost certainly some of it is. I would be too in their position.
By the way your comment about the window that wasn't broken (or at least that was broken but wasn't in Eagle's office) made me do some googling as I hadn't heard that twist. And it really does look like an extraordinary example of biased reporting. If it was of significance that the window was broken then the story that the location of the window may have been misrepresented is surely of equal significance.
[ 10. August 2016, 14:08: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Likewise, the police deny they advised her to cancel her consituency meetings. Connor McGinn's claims to have been threatened by 'thugs' form momentum outside a labour meeting have also been debunked.
One of the infamous internet trolls apparently threatening an mp (claimed by others, not the mp herself) to be a corbyn supporter, who was actually brought to court, turned out to be - unsurprisingly and internet troll with a history of abuse toward women who had absolutely nothing to do with either momentum or the labour party.
These smear stories are not helping. Nor does Tom Watson stating that young Corbyn supporters are being maniuplated by older trot entrists.
(Oh and Watson now wants to get rid of one member one vote.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I felt disappointed in Watson, blathering on about revolutionary socialists.
But I thought that one member one vote would come under the cosh, far too democratic, comrades. The right wing basically want a top down party, where the members follow orders, and turn up once a year at conference to rubber stamp some stuff decided by the top brass. It's socialism, comrades, but not as we own it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Likewise, the police deny they advised her to cancel her consituency meetings.
This is the sort of thing that, in reverse, the Corbyn camp rightly complains about. DCI Kenwright did release a statement saying, truthfully, that the decision to suspend surgeries was ultimately made by Angela Eagle herself. Which is true. Certainly the police wouldn't want to be seen to have forbidden a member of parliament from meeting with her constituents if she chooses to. But it's not the complete truth. The Echo had sight of the advice emailed to Angela Eagle by the police adviser and they quoted from it: quote:
“I believe it would be a good idea to, if possible, cancel or postpone these surgeries.
“Failing that I would recommend that a different location be used that can offer some form of access control or security on site to deal with any awkward situations.
“If you do decide to go ahead with the surgery I would recommend that you inform the local beat Inspector and advise him of the situation surrounding possible disorder.”
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/police-advice-led-angela-eagle-11652120
All of which would suggest that the police take quite seriously the threats to her safety, apparently from people who support Jeremy Corbyn but who are beyond his control. So too does Jeremy Corbyn himself, even if many of those who claim to support him choose not to follow his lead. Very properly he condemned those responsible.
Obviously, not every claim is going to be true or credible that someone who either supports or opposes Jeremy Corbyn has been threatened or abused by someone of the opposite view. But all too many of them are true and cannot be characterised as "smear stories".
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The thing that amuses/amazes me is that the PLP, or the Blairites and Brownites, look astonishingly shambolic. Their coup has been ham-fisted, witness the to-ing and fro-ing of Angela Eagle, then Smith turns up and announces he is as left-wing as Corbyn!
It's almost as if the Parliamentary Labour Party are not a hivemind of Machiavellian power grabbing conspirators.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The thing that amuses/amazes me is that the PLP, or the Blairites and Brownites, look astonishingly shambolic. Their coup has been ham-fisted, witness the to-ing and fro-ing of Angela Eagle, then Smith turns up and announces he is as left-wing as Corbyn!
It's almost as if the Parliamentary Labour Party are not a hivemind of Machiavellian power grabbing conspirators.
I don't think anybody has claimed that, have they? For one thing, the PLP contains various groups, who don't see eye to eye - in fact, some of them support Corbyn.
As to plotting, there are all kinds of stories about MPs plotting against Corbyn from day one, but I don't have enough information to say one way or t'other. The resignations from the shadow cabinet did look suspiciously regularly timed, but again, I don't know enough detail.
I suppose inept is the word, which characterizes Labour as a whole at the moment. Maybe in the shadows a future Blair lurks, with a masterful plan and masterful gift of rhetoric, things are too rough at the moment.
It will probably become a future political joke - Labour couldn't even organize a decent coup, never mind a piss up in a brewery.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I believe "fucking useless" was the statesmanly description of it.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes. I think it's the electoral cycle - after a big figure like Blair, political parties tend to have nervous breakdowns. It's necessary, I guess, to wash the old stuff out of your hair, get smashed, break the crockery, shag somebody unsuitable, and so on. Eventually, people sober up, and they can function again.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The thing that amuses/amazes me is that the PLP, or the Blairites and Brownites, look astonishingly shambolic.
Which would suggest it probably wasn't planned ... But I stand by my previous comment that the PLP looks ineffective because the rulebook doesn't give them a means of looking effective. On your specific complaints:
Ms Eagle's indecision: I think the whole point was to avoid a protracted leadership contest, but Mr Corbyn rejected every single compromise that would avoid it. If you accept the premise that it is reasonable for a Parliamentary leader to remain in position without the support of his MPs, then yes, I suppose the unreasonableness is on Ms Eagle's side, not Mr Corbyn's. I have not yet seen a convincing demonstration of that premise, though.
Mr Smith claiming to be left-wing: Don't see why this deserves a WTF. Don't you want all the MPs to perform this sort of volte-face in honour of Mr Corbyn's mandate?
Gerrymandering: A stupid decision, but one made by the NEC, not the PLP.
Timing: As I said before, if a leadership challenge has to take place it makes sense to do it when the Tories can't profit from it because of their own disarray. And as I also said before, if Mr Corbyn had stepped down like a normal person in exchange for continued support for his policies, as was offered by the PLP, then the whole thing could have been resolved in time for the Tories' expected summer of self-destruction. The fact that the Tories, by good luck rather than good management, united around Ms May was not predicted at the time.
Brick through window: Done to death above. I agree the thing with the office key was petty though.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose inept is the word, which characterizes Labour as a whole at the moment. Maybe in the shadows a future Blair lurks, with a masterful plan and masterful gift of rhetoric, things are too rough at the moment.
I doubt the future Blair figure is even an MP yet. Assuming that Corbyn is re-elected leader (although cracks are appearing, the GMB have just endorsed Citizen Smith), Labour need to Re-run their 1983 fiasco, then elect a Kinnock figure as leader. This will be the one senior figure who, like Kinnock, is generally considered to have performed well in an otherwise disastrous campaign. This person will do the heavy lifting of making Labour electable again, ready for the Blair-type voter-friendly leader to be the next Labour PM. In the best case of this best case scenario, this person is more like John Smith than Blair.
The alternative is that Labour splits in two, and/or disappears into obscurity.
[ 10. August 2016, 17:45: Message edited by: Rocinante ]
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I was interested in Starmer, until I saw him speak, kind of dull. Needs refurbishment. Also, can he play rough?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Starmer was Mrs Tor's old boss. He's a lawyer. Lawyers are usually dull and competent.
Dan Jarvis is often mooted as the face of 'electable Labour'. I don't know enough about his politics to say.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Rocinante is probably right. Some rough beast is even now slouching towards Westminster, with nary a gleam in its eye that its future will be to lead comrades to the bright new dawn.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I often toy with the idea of getting more involved and standing for public office. Then I think of my internet search history and decide against it.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I often toy with the idea of getting more involved and standing for public office. Then I think of my internet search history and decide against it.
Very good. I used to think of it, then realized how much of an anarchist I am. Not a Trot, so fuck off, Watson.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The thing that amuses/amazes me is that the PLP, or the Blairites and Brownites, look astonishingly shambolic.
Which would suggest it probably wasn't planned ... But I stand by my previous comment that the PLP looks ineffective because the rulebook doesn't give them a means of looking effective. On your specific complaints:
Ms Eagle's indecision: I think the whole point was to avoid a protracted leadership contest, but Mr Corbyn rejected every single compromise that would avoid it. If you accept the premise that it is reasonable for a Parliamentary leader to remain in position without the support of his MPs, then yes, I suppose the unreasonableness is on Ms Eagle's side, not Mr Corbyn's. I have not yet seen a convincing demonstration of that premise, though.
Mr Smith claiming to be left-wing: Don't see why this deserves a WTF. Don't you want all the MPs to perform this sort of volte-face in honour of Mr Corbyn's mandate?
Gerrymandering: A stupid decision, but one made by the NEC, not the PLP.
Timing: As I said before, if a leadership challenge has to take place it makes sense to do it when the Tories can't profit from it because of their own disarray. And as I also said before, if Mr Corbyn had stepped down like a normal person in exchange for continued support for his policies, as was offered by the PLP, then the whole thing could have been resolved in time for the Tories' expected summer of self-destruction. The fact that the Tories, by good luck rather than good management, united around Ms May was not predicted at the time.
Brick through window: Done to death above. I agree the thing with the office key was petty though.
Agree with pretty much all of this. I think the problem is that the two sides point to one big example of incompetence and they then imply that this example proves that their opponents are generally incompetent in all areas of life.
I work in education and most of the staff and leaders I have come across whilst capable of making some big mistakes have an impressively wide range of competencies and skills. They tend to come across as incompetent if the area in which they are asked to operate is really not suited to their skills and experience. Or when they are put in a situation where none of the options are good.
Take Corbyn, having a fair mastery of your brief is difficult especially when it is across a number of areas. Corbyn, clearly isn't a detail person or a natural team player, and so his incompetence is apparent because he is being asked to operate in an area that is almost completely foreign to him. He is very skilled in some areas however: he's very good at enthusing his home crowd and is clearly excellent one to one with the public.
The PLP - people complain about the inept 'coup'. I'd love someone to lay out how the challenge to Corbyn's leadership should have been done. When would be a better time? If they'd planned it more - probably impossible in the time frame - would it have come across any better?
The problem is that the PLP were in a Catch 22. You have a leader who was very popular with 60%+ of the members and really motivated many, particularly the younger idealistic ones. And yet you have opinion polls, personal ratings and local elections results that were pretty dire. History suggests that an opposition have to be ahead by 14% or more in such elections to have a good chance of forming the next government! Labour were just 1% ahead and this was after Tory EU infighting and Osborne's most unpopular budget.
The PLP knew that what might happen if they acted could be dire but the slow lingering death that they saw happening before their eyes was unsustainable. The many stories of the chaotic nature of Corbyn's leadership (quite a few coming from natural allies) suggest that there was an issue. Personally I am not surprised that they did what they did. The choice was rubbish but all other options looked even worse.
[ 10. August 2016, 19:43: Message edited by: Luigi ]
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
the GMB have just endorsed Citizen Smith
Well at least the GMB held a vote of their members, which produced a 60%/40% split in favour of Smith. Len McClusky is putting Unite's 1.4 million votes behind Corbyn without balloting his members. This is democracy Trot style. Of course it's quite likely that Unite would have backed Corbyn, after all they've voted for mandatory re-selection of all Corbyn opponents in the PLP. This will get worse. Governments always get the blame for economic disasters even when they clearly aren't to blame. Like Gordon Brown after the 2009 meltdown. I hope nothing bad enough happens in the next few years which could give this Marxist/Trotskyite faction any chance of power, and that Labour stays in the wilderness until it relearns the lessons of the 1980's and 90's on the electibility of its leaders and policies.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
the GMB have just endorsed Citizen Smith
Well at least the GMB held a vote of their members, which produced a 60%/40% split in favour of Smith. Len McClusky is putting Unite's 1.4 million votes behind Corbyn without balloting his members. This is democracy Trot style. Of course it's quite likely that Unite would have backed Corbyn, after all they've voted for mandatory re-selection of all Corbyn opponents in the PLP. This will get worse. Governments always get the blame for economic disasters even when they clearly aren't to blame. Like Gordon Brown after the 2009 meltdown. I hope nothing bad enough happens in the next few years which could give this Marxist/Trotskyite faction any chance of power, and that Labour stays in the wilderness until it relearns the lessons of the 1980's and 90's on the electibility of its leaders and policies.
Absolute bollocks. It's a total disgrace that you keep using terms like 'hard left' and 'Trotskyite', without defining them, despite being asked to. This is not what I call discussion. God help us all if this is how political discussion is conducted in the future.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Absolute bollocks. It's a total disgrace that you keep using terms like 'hard left' and 'Trotskyite', without defining them, despite being asked to. This is not what I call discussion. God help us all if this is how political discussion is conducted in the future
Membership of the Labour Party has doubled since the last election at a time when national support for the party has plummeted. This is an influx of activists whose motive is to move the party to the left. Left and right in party politics are quite well known terms and we all know what they mean. Perhaps Marxist and Trot are OTT and I apologise if you find them offensive. But the 2018 boundry changes have given Corbyn, by his own admission, the opportunity to reselect all Labour candidates for the 2020 General Election. Let's see how many of the current PLP survive this reselection. Let's see if long serving, well respected members such as Alan Johnson or Frank Field survive this cull. I could almost bet that you won't see Yvette Cooper or Liz Kendall representing Labour in 2020. Because they belong to the Blairite/Brownite faction, and now that Citizen Jezz is in charge, which he will be again after the vote, they will be purged. Now you are entitled to your opinion, but mine is that this represents a surge to the left. This is how most of the country sees it. You may gain power, but I pray to the living God that you never do.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
This is an influx of activists whose motive is to move the party to the left. Left and right in party politics are quite well known terms and we all know what they mean. Perhaps Marxist and Trot are OTT and I apologise if you find them offensive.
It's not that 'Marxist' and 'Trot' are offensive. It's that they're inaccurate. They mean political positions much further to the left than Corbyn or his supporters. It's like describing Michael Gove as a Nazi.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It's not that 'Marxist' and 'Trot' are offensive. It's that they're inaccurate. They mean political positions much further to the left than Corbyn or his supporters.
OK so the popular press describes Corbyn's leadership as a surge to the left. That is to the left of the party which made Tony Blair and Gordon Brown Prime Ministers. Do you deny that definition, given the common understanding of right and left in politics? Apart from Atlee's post WW2 government, we've never had a true socialist government in Britain. When Michael Foot took Labour to the left in 1980, he consigned them to almost 18 years in opposition. Labour had to rehabilitate itself in stages. Neil Kinnock did a great job in this, but he was Moses, who could never go to the Promised Land. John Smith could have, but for his untimely death. It's likely that the party will have to repeat all those stages, because I don't believe that the British electorate will want a Corbynite Labour government any more than they wanted Michael Foot.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
And still there is no explanation of what Trot and Trotskyite mean. This is so anti-intellectual, and replaces clear discussion with a smear.
Good grief, we must be in a worse position that I thought, when this kind of lazy verbiage is being used. Amazing that Corbyn is called extreme, when this kind of smearing is being practised by his opponents. Labour is doomed when this kind of rhetoric is being used.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I don't think Mr Corbyn's supporters are Trotskyists or Marxists (except in the generic sense that most left-wing ideology has been influenced by Marx to a greater or lesser extent whether its proponents are aware of it or not).
It's worth point out that the full quote from Mr Watson was this:
quote:
There are Trots that have come back to the party, and they certainly don’t have the best interests of the Labour party at heart. They see the Labour party as a vehicle for revolutionary socialism, and they’re not remotely interested in winning elections, and that’s a problem. But I don’t think the vast majority of people that have joined the Labour party and have been mobilised by the people that are in Momentum are all Trots and Bolsheviks.
Source here (and the interview as a whole is worth reading). Having said that, Mr Watson is media-savvy enough, or claims to be, to know how that would be spun so I don't have all that much sympathy for him.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
Some of the recent Labour joiners (and re-joiners) can probably be accurately described as Trotskyists in that they see themselves as the vanguard of revolutionary socialism in this country. However the large majority probably just want to take Labour back to democratic socialism as in the days of Attlee and Bevan. Whether this constitutes the right course for the Labour party, or is a viable path back to government, are separate issues.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
From Barnabas62's link:
The Socialist party’s leader, Peter Taaffe, a founder member of Militant who has continued to be involved since the 1980s, told the Guardian earlier in the day that he hoped to be readmitted to the Labour party if Corbyn saw off the leadership challenge from Owen Smith.
Militant were expelled from the Labour Party by Neil Kinnock in its last attempt to purge the hard left. Now men like Taaffe see a way back with Corbyn. Those who seem to object to my definition of Corbyn as hard left need to take note. Only if he keeps this riff-raff out can he make any claims to social democracy. Otherwise it's plain for all to see what he really is.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It's not that 'Marxist' and 'Trot' are offensive. It's that they're inaccurate. They mean political positions much further to the left than Corbyn or his supporters.
OK so the popular press describes Corbyn's leadership as a surge to the left. That is to the left of the party which made Tony Blair and Gordon Brown Prime Ministers. Do you deny that definition, given the common understanding of right and left in politics? Apart from Atlee's post WW2 government, we've never had a true socialist government in Britain.
Attlee's government was arguably the best government the UK has ever had.
Otherwise, your post seems to me irrelevant flummification. Yes, Corbyn is to the left of Blair and Brown. Blair and Brown were not borderline Marxists. There's plenty of room to their left. On the whole I don't think Corbyn is going to get himself elected. That's not because he's a Trot; it's because he seems to be making no effort to preach to people who aren't already converted. (And because the right-wing popular press are smearing him.)
Taafe is irrelevant, a smear by lack of association. He has not been in fact let back into the Labour Party under Corbyn. To argue that he might be is counterfactual speculation.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Trotskyism presumably refers to the violent overthrow of capitalism, followed by the dictatorship of the proletariat. In fact, it's close to Leninism, in those respects anyway.
To link these ideas with Corbyn or the Unite union just seems unintelligent to me, but I suppose if you are going to smear, smear hard, Daily Mail style.
I'm not sure what place this degraded rhetoric has in Labour or in fact, anywhere.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I think there are Trotskyists within Momentum, but the relevant question is whether Momentum and the pro-Corbyn movement would look significantly different if they all miraculously vanished. And I don't think it would.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
IIRC Taafe and the rest of Militant was expelled because of the Labour Party rule that no one could be a member of another political party while a member of the Labour Party. It took a while for Labour to see through the fiction of the Militant "Tendency", but once it had, that was it for the "Mutants" as some dubbed them.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I don't think the labels are all that useful. Infiltrators normally get their feet under the table before revealing their true colours, their particular agenda. But those true colours are always revealed by the way they behave.
In practice, how can you tell whether someone whose previous associations have been more with the revolutionary socialist movements will continue that way if they join a mainstream democratic party. Maybe they have changed their minds? Maybe they have decided that social democracy is a better way to go?
Personally, I have been disturbed by some of the aggression shown towards PLP MPs at local constituency meetings, and at other public meetings. And I've seen comments online (on Facebook pages and reports of the Corbyn/Smith debates) which give me cause for concern; folks stepping over the legitimate criticism line. My antennae are up. But I don't believe it's fair to go for more generalised criticism of the newer members of the Labour Party.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
As far as aggression to MPs goes, I think rank-and-file Labour supporters are fed up that the PLP have spent the last year attacking their democratically elected leader, rather than providing an effective opposition to Tory policy. That frustration is naturally going to spill out in face-to-face meetings.
My own MP (who is leftish) has accepted the vote, and has got on with working hard and welcoming new members. My previous MP (by boundary changes) is also Labour (and was an utter waste of space - little more than a seat-warmer) and has been wringing her hankie in public ever since Corbyn was elected.
Only one of these people comes in for serious criticism by their own constituency party. But perhaps I'm naive in sensing a pattern.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Begs the question, Doc. Why do you think that 80% of the PLP MPs are so fed up with Jeremy that they have openly lost confidence in him? To read many of the online comments, you'd think they were all a bunch of pathetic, stupid, traitorous, Blairite or pseudo-Blairite, crybabies. There is a lot of contempt, and a lot of it is levelled at the "temerity" of the PLP MPs who have dared to behave like constituency representatives (who are not delegated clones of the Labour Party members) have a perfect right to behave in a representative democracy.
Read the late Jo Cox.
[ 11. August 2016, 13:10: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Begs the question, Doc. Why do you think that 80% of the PLP MPs are so fed up with Jeremy that they have openly lost confidence in him? To read many of the online comments, you'd think they were all a bunch of pathetic, stupid, traitorous, Blairite or pseudo-Blairite, crybabies. There is a lot of contempt, and a lot of it is levelled at the "temerity" of the PLP MPs who have dared to behave like constituency representatives (who are not delegated clones of the Labour Party members) have a perfect right to behave in a representative democracy.
Read the late Jo Cox.
I don't think the majority of the PLP are crybabies, but I do think they are bending over backwards to gain the votes of what they perceive to be a selfish, greedy and increasingly mean-spirited and xenophobic electorate.
Sadly, they aren't wrong.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Begs the question, Doc. Why do you think that 80% of the PLP MPs are so fed up with Jeremy that they have openly lost confidence in him?
That also begs the question. The way you phrase it implies that the PLP MPs were at some point behind JC, and his subsequent actions have 'lost confidence'.
You know, as well as I, that was never the position. They hated him from the start, were and are utterly bewildered by the support he has, are at a complete loss to explain why he's struck such a chord with Labour members (despite having it explained to them at every opportunity), and are frantic to be rid of him.
It's not JC who's lost the confidence. It's the PLP. And the members are going to voice their opinions in the weeks and months ahead. As you sow, so shall you reap.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
There was a period of time when enough of the PLP thought their best interests were served by cooperating to some degree and it was possible to appoint a shadow cabinet.
Now they don't think that anymore. Did they always intend to go through this loop? I expect some did, but Corbyn had an opportunity to negotiate, develop a team and show some managerial competence and leadership. However well he's done considering his decades in the back benches it hasn't been enough to put a party together at the top.
I predict Corbyn's re-election and then de-selections of anti-Corbyn MPs at constituency level. I don't think that is going to go very well towards an electable functioning opposition. Corbyn will then be reaping.
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
Mr Corbyn has a mandate from his members. His MPs have mandates from their constituents. Normally, when two groups find their interests in conflict, and neither group is obviously in the wrong or subordinate to the other, the correct resolution is a compromise. The MPs have shown themselves willing to compromise by supporting policies and/or an alternative leader to the left of where they presumably stand. Mr Corbyn has not offered any compromise.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Mr Corbyn has a mandate from his members. His MPs have mandates from their constituents. Normally, when two groups find their interests in conflict, and neither group is obviously in the wrong or subordinate to the other, the correct resolution is a compromise. The MPs have shown themselves willing to compromise by supporting policies and/or an alternative leader to the left of where they presumably stand. Mr Corbyn has not offered any compromise.
Well, that's the narrative of the PLP. Apologies if I find it somewhat self-serving.
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know, as well as I, that was never the position. They hated him from the start, were and are utterly bewildered by the support he has, are at a complete loss to explain why he's struck such a chord with Labour members (despite having it explained to them at every opportunity), and are frantic to be rid of him.
I can believe there are a sizeable minority of MPs who disliked Corbyn solely on ideological grounds. But he can't get even 20% of MPs to back him. And I'm not hearing any MPs saying that they were against him at the start but he's not as bad as they feared.
At which point you have to either posit that the Labour MPs are a Blairite hive mind, or else that some of the problems stem from Corbyn.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm sure some of the problems do stem from Corbyn. But only some of them. I don't believe he's particularly easy to work with - ideologues often aren't - and I can imagine that 'his way of doing things' needs refinement, as despite his experience as an MP, he doesn't have the experience of a office of State, or leadership of a large organisation.
The PLP has, mainly, been an utter disgrace, but somehow it's all Corbyn's fault. But if you listen to everything written about him, you'd think next door's cat going missing was Corbyn's fault.
Owen Who will be thrashed in the election. Then it's up to individual MPs to decide what to do. Hopefully, they'll do what they should have done in the first place: stand with their leader, against the Tories, and work with him to promulgate Labour policies. Otherwise, deselection will inevitably follow, democratically, according to the party rules.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sure some of the problems do stem from Corbyn. But only some of them. I don't believe he's particularly easy to work with - ideologues often aren't - and I can imagine that 'his way of doing things' needs refinement, as despite his experience as an MP, he doesn't have the experience of a office of State, or leadership of a large organisation.
But he's the leader. It's his job to find the compromises on some points, and to force through his agenda and win on others. When he was a back-bench voice of protest he didn't need to compromise and could be an ideologue and have his special way of doing things. That won't work as party leader.
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Rocinante
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# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Owen Who will be thrashed in the election. Then it's up to individual MPs to decide what to do. Hopefully, they'll do what they should have done in the first place: stand with their leader, against the Tories, and work with him to promulgate Labour policies. Otherwise, deselection will inevitably follow, democratically, according to the party rules.
I think if it comes to this a lot of MP's will jump before they're pushed and initiate the Big Split. How this might play out, it's very hard to say. It would be a healthy development in some ways, but our electoral system doesn't favour new or breakaway parties.
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, that's the narrative of the PLP. Apologies if I find it somewhat self-serving.
How is it self-serving? At the moment support for Mr Corbyn gets you nominated as Metro Mayor for Liverpool whereas opposing Mr Corbyn gets you threatened with deselection.
And even if it is self-serving, how does that make it less true?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, that's the narrative of the PLP. Apologies if I find it somewhat self-serving.
How is it self-serving? At the moment support for Mr Corbyn gets you nominated as Metro Mayor for Liverpool whereas opposing Mr Corbyn gets you threatened with deselection.
I think you meant to say, 'elected in an open contest of several potential candidates, to stand as the Labour Party's candidate in an election for Metro Mayor of Merseyside, where other candidates from other parties will also stand'.
Which puts a slightly different gloss on it. You make it sound like the Mayorship is in Corbyn's gift.
quote:
And even if it is self-serving, how does that make it less true?
Sorry, when I said 'self serving' I was being polite. How about 'at variance with the truth'?
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I think you meant to say, 'elected in an open contest of several potential candidates, to stand as the Labour Party's candidate in an election for Metro Mayor of Merseyside, where other candidates from other parties will also stand'.
The candidate himself, in the article I cited, acknowledges his support for Mr Corbyn was a factor in his success at getting the Labour nomination. In this area, getting the Labour nomination is pretty much equivalent to getting the job. Ergo, supporting Mr Corbyn is an advantageous thing to do.
Not that there is anything wrong with that. But it would tend to suggest that not supporting Mr Corbyn is not a self-serving act.
quote:
Sorry, when I said 'self serving' I was being polite. How about 'at variance with the truth'?
In what way is it at variance with the truth?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The candidate himself, in the article I cited, acknowledges his support for Mr Corbyn was a factor in his success at getting the Labour nomination. In this area, getting the Labour nomination is pretty much equivalent to getting the job. Ergo, supporting Mr Corbyn is an advantageous thing to do.
It's a factor. Heavenforefend that those who subsequently voted might have considered that when casting their ballots. It's all Corbyn's fault, of course.
quote:
Not that there is anything wrong with that. But it would tend to suggest that not supporting Mr Corbyn is not a self-serving act.
The narrative the Chicken Coup have constructed is utterly self-serving. That Corbyn is impossible to work with and therefore they have absolutely no choice but to rescue the Labour Party from this itinerant hard-left prophet and his Trotskyite followers, who even now are swamping the membership lists with infiltrators and entryists, threatening decent MPs with deselection and physical violence if they don't get their hard-left way.
Sorry, it's bollocks.
quote:
In what way is it at variance with the truth?
See above.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Sorry, it's bollocks.
I think there's emerging quite a lot of evidence that he's difficult to work with. Granted, not difficult in a hard-left-Trot kind of way but difficult in a no-notice-press-announcement-no-engagement-in-committee sort of way. He also seems like a no-compromise type which is a bit wearing in the world of realpolitik.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think there's emerging quite a lot of evidence that he's difficult to work with.
As I've acknowledged.
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