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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I hear people remark that capitalism has almost never come up with worthwhile inventions.
I wonder how many of those people have smartphones? Or own a motor car?
I rarely see things the same way as you Anglican't but like you this comment about capitalism just strikes me as absurd.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I hear people remark that capitalism has almost never come up with worthwhile inventions.
You know some really weird people. I'm as left as you can imagine, and hang out with other lefties: I've never heard that, and even if I had, they'd have been laughed to scorn long before I'd chance to react.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I hear people remark that capitalism has almost never come up with worthwhile inventions.
You know some really weird people. I'm as left as you can imagine, and hang out with other lefties: I've never heard that, and even if I had, they'd have been laughed to scorn long before I'd chance to react.
Concerning your comments re hanging out with other lefties. I have been increasingly wondering whether the very different perspectives on Corbyn amongst us lefties arise not primarily in the area of policy but due to who we meet regularly. Over the past 5 years, through changes in work, I have spent significantly more time with floating voters and a few shy Tories. Many of them don't really know me and my views, so they are significantly less guarded in what they say amongst themselves.
I cannot see Corbyn winning any of them over. Only a very broad church Labour party would have a hope - and even then it would be tough.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Concerning your comments re hanging out with other lefties. I have been increasingly wondering whether the very different perspectives on Corbyn amongst us lefties arise not primarily in the area of policy but due to who we meet regularly. Over the past 5 years, through changes in work, I have spent significantly more time with floating voters and a few shy Tories. Many of them don't really know me and my views, so they are significantly less guarded in what they say amongst themselves.
I cannot see Corbyn winning any of them over. Only a very broad church Labour party would have a hope - and even then it would be tough.
I never leave the house if I can at all avoid it (not actually true - just when I do, I don't talk to anyone), so a lot of my interactions are online.
So I'm left wondering if you lot are statistical outliers amongst my leftist friends. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
My mum, bless her, is somewhere right of Genghis Khan - firmly on the Libertarian Right - and conversations with her can be quite exciting, as she has some peculiar blindspots (as I'm sure, I do). But she's one of the few people I actually know who votes Tory, and she's not (for all values of not) ever going to vote Labour, no matter how broad the church is. That probably skews my thoughts on Corbyn more than anything else.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I hear people remark that capitalism has almost never come up with worthwhile inventions.
I wonder how many of those people have smartphones? Or own a motor car?
The article I read listed the components of smartphones that were developed with public money; most of the important bits was the gist of it.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
There is something in this that is worth reflecting on and deserves more than our scorn.
Drawing on my experience of biological research I think it is true to say that all the really fundamental insights have been funded by charitable or government funding.
However the final mile of turning the insights into products is done by companies.
Why the difference?
Fundamental research is often cheaper (by comparison - i.e. millions rather than hundred of millions of pounds) but requires a degree of altruism.
The development of a product is massively expensive, and mostly selfish. A lot of the knowledge generated is of no use except in either supporting a license for the product or discarding it and moving on to the next idea. Universities and research institutions tend not to have the regulatory expertise to actually bring the product through the process, even if they've had the original idea.
The processes that government and charitable funders use to look at research are peer and expert review. This tends to not be very transparent and is very prone to group think.
The processes drug companies use are completely non-transparent and made by a few people, but those people end up in shallow graves if their bets don't come off due to the purifying Darwinian process that the share-holders implement. This seems to work better as a means of regulating multi-million investments betting on a return.
Hence I think it could be argued that although the product development is completely capitalist, the fundamental insights and interesting biology is outside capitalism, and capitalism left to its own devices would keep feeding of the corpse but not make any new kills.
I have heard similar things about electronics and car engines but have less first-hand knowledge.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
How does that deal with the motor vehicle, the first manned flights, the steam locomotive - in fact the steam engine in the various uses to which it was put, the spinning jenny, the printing press? OK, maybe that is pre-capitalism, but none of the others is.
Of course, that does not deal with the question of what makes an invention worthwhile. Many inventions have led to an increase in wealth for some in society at the expense of the hard labour of many others. Are they worthwhile if they have led to an increase in general well-being? The motor vehicle has had great positive effects on many societies while still causing huge increases in air pollution and global warming. Has it been worthwhile?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
There is something in this that is worth reflecting on and deserves more than our scorn.
I think we should probably start a new thread on this.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
I realise the plural of anecdotes isn't data
This is correct, but you don't seem to have applied it to your analysis.
quote:
The fundamental question is are the New Labour-ites who don't like Corbyn but have voted Labour for the last however many elections really going to jump ship over him? I can't see that happening, for all they might say that in anger now.
I disagree. I'm a New Labour voter gone ABC*, and I can assure you that's not going to change. However that's an even smaller sample size than you're using. So I'll just say that the voters who appear to have deserted Labour are probably also from the New Labour part of the spectrum.
For an analysis of recent Labour polling and results that is both neutral and hugely intelligent, try the 15 Aug article here.
*Anyone But Corbyn
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Looks like Jeremy was stretching the truth a bit about having to sit on the floor of a crowded train...
BBC News
I've been made aware of this through other sources.
Corbyn wants to renationalise the railways. No one on the train in question can be found to gainsay his original comments. The journalist who did the original filming on the train has also commented.
I think we can probably guess why this story has popped up just when Labour members are receiving their ballot papers.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Corbyn wants to renationalise the railways. No one on the train in question can be found to gainsay his original comments. The journalist who did the original filming on the train has also commented.
Well something doesn't add up. The journalist whose comments you referred to, Charles Anthony, says that Mr Corbyn walked past reserved seats in the video and the footage of him taking a seat is after he filmed his video piece sitting in the corridor, after the train emptied.
But the video stills on the Telegraph website appear to show Mr Corbyn walking by unreserved seating before then going through a reserved carriage.
Mr Anthony has retweeted a claim that Mr Corbyn walked through all the standard carriages looking in vain for a seat, but the video doesn't appear to support that view.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Mr Anthony is also the co-author of the original Guardian article which is entitled "Corbyn joins seatless commuters on floor for three-hour train journey" and says in the body of the piece:
quote:
Jeremy Corbyn, famed for standing up for his principles, sat down for them last week, along with 20 other seatless commuters on a three-hour train journey from London to Newcastle.
This rather suggests that Mr Corbyn sat for the whole journey, rather than 30-odd minutes (regardless of whether seats were available). Admittedly Mr Corbyn isn't responsible for the article.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Looks like Jeremy was stretching the truth a bit about having to sit on the floor of a crowded train...
BBC News
Indeed.
It is true that he may have sat for a short time on the floor - when he actually didn't need to: he could have taken a reserved seat that had been taken - but, the fact that he was subsequently shown to a seat should have removed any justification for him posting his party political broadcast later on. The broadcast which implied that he had spent the entire journey on the floor.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not to me it didn't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Not to me it didn't.
When you saw the video and his little speech about it, you didn't think he was sat there for the whole journey?
In that case, knowing as you evidently do that he sat for the majority of the journey on a nice comfortable seat, can you tell us why he failed to mention it in a supplementary broadcast?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Of course not. Why? Other passengers substantiate his experience. The Virgin film does NOT show empty unreserved seats at the time he walked through. One of his travelling companions said that the seats which APPEAR empty because you can't see people's heads and shoulders above the backs of the seats and occluded fronts, had children in them.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Indeed.
It is true that he may have sat for a short time on the floor - when he actually didn't need to: he could have taken a reserved seat that had been taken - but, the fact that he was subsequently shown to a seat should have removed any justification for him posting his party political broadcast later on. The broadcast which implied that he had spent the entire journey on the floor.
Quite. It's not earth-shaking that a politician would put a little gloss on the truth to make a political point, even a politician who seeks to portray himself as being above that sort of grubbiness. But it seems so typical that Jeremy Corbyn would do this (or, charitably, that he would neglect to correct a misleading statement given in his name) in circumstances where there was CCTV coverage and there were scores of people present, so that it was inevitable the gloss would rub off in no time at all.
Maybe there really weren't any empty seats when he first got on the train. Goodness knows I've stood in plenty of train corridors myself. But it certainly doesn't look like there weren't. And regardless, it doesn't matter now. Thirty minutes of photo opportunity is not three hours of cramped discomfort. His point is lost now in all the self-generated "noise".
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Okay. Let's assume Corbyn's a lying liar from Lyington. There were plenty of unreserved seats, enough for everyone to sit down.
You might want to ask yourself about all the other passengers who were sitting in the corridors on the same train. But you'll probably come to the conclusion that that was also Corbyn's fault. Like Schrodinger's immigrant (simultaneously taking our job and claiming our benefits), we now have Corbyn's arse - simultaneously occupying all the seats and yet none of them.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Just as well Corbyn wasn't sat in first class. All that comfort, space and complementary drinks and newspaper at public expense (cue: frothing at mouth).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Just as well Corbyn wasn't sat in first class. All that comfort, space and complementary drinks and newspaper at public expense (cue: frothing at mouth).
You mean like Gideon did, on a second class ticket?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
we now have Corbyn's arse - simultaneously occupying all the seats and yet none of them.
I was hoping to get through the day without thinking about Jeremy Corbyn's nether regions.
Thanks, Doc.
(If you buy an advance purchase ticket on these trains, you automatically get a seat reservation. Your ticket is valid on any train, not just on the one you get the reservation for, so it's pretty common for reserved seats to go unfilled. If you're getting on at London (where the train starts) you'll find a large number of seats reserved from London to X, but not know which ones are actually going to be occupied until the train starts moving. So people hanging about standing/sitting in the lobbies isn't uncommon at the start of a journey.
In my youth, I made a lot of journeys on the floor of trains because I didn't find a seat immediately, and once I was settled on the floor it was too much hassle to hump my bags around looking for a seat.)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If you're getting on at London (where the train starts) you'll find a large number of seats reserved from London to X, but not know which ones are actually going to be occupied until the train starts moving. So people hanging about standing/sitting in the lobbies isn't uncommon at the start of a journey.
In my youth, I made a lot of journeys on the floor of trains because I didn't find a seat immediately, and once I was settled on the floor it was too much hassle to hump my bags around looking for a seat.)
You and me both. This is almost exactly (according to Corbyn) what happened. He couldn't find a two-together with his missus, sat in the corridor with the others who couldn't find a seat, and after 40 mins or so into the journey, enough people had been shuffled around by the staff - unclaimed reserved seats and bumps into 1st class - that he was able to sit with his wife.
If you're going to call Corbyn a liar, you're calling a mum with two small kids a liar too. But they're just collateral damage in the rush to smear him.
Also, the Information Commissioner is reportedly interested in Virgin Train's 'use' of CCTV footage for blatantly political purposes.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(If you buy an advance purchase ticket on these trains, you automatically get a seat reservation. Your ticket is valid on any train, not just on the one you get the reservation.)
Not necessarily, it depends on the ticket. But even people on the right trains don't necessarily sit in their allocated seat.
P.S. I hate Pendolinos - so cramped. Give me a nice Mk.3 carriage any day.
[ 23. August 2016, 21:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Okay. Let's assume Corbyn's a lying liar from Lyington. There were plenty of unreserved seats, enough for everyone to sit down.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This is almost exactly (according to Corbyn) what happened. He couldn't find a two-together with his missus
This rather mirrors how Mr Corbyn's narrative has developed. In the film he made on the train, he described the train as 'ram packed' whereas there were, it appears, seats available, but not the seats he wanted. Isn't that rather two different things?
[ 23. August 2016, 22:18: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, the Information Commissioner is reportedly interested in Virgin Train's 'use' of CCTV footage for blatantly political purposes.
That looked a bit dodgy to me, too - I was under the impression that the CCTV was there strictly for security purposes.
In partial defense of Virgin Trains on the "blatantly political" front, it was Mr. Corbyn who started this particular fight, so perhaps Virgin Trains using its own video of Mr. Corbyn on the train is a fair response to Mr. Corbyn's own video.
On the actual factual content part, the Virgin Trains images agree with the testimony of Mr. Corbyn and of the other passengers that the train was full. Virgin Trains are claiming "we were only 98% full, and we found Mr. Corbyn a seat half an hour into his journey". Some of the other passengers are claiming that the train was 102% full.
Anyone who travels on peak time services out of London knows that this is always true. The trains are always close to full, and if you don't have a reservation and don't arrive early, it is often difficult to find a seat.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
In the film he made on the train, he described the train as 'ram packed' whereas there were, it appears, seats available, but not the seats he wanted. Isn't that rather two different things?
I'm not expecting you to explain that here, but I am expecting you to meditate on why all those other people who weren't Jeremy Corbyn were also preferring to sit in a corridor rather than take one of any number of apparently empty seats.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I've used to regularly get on the virgin train to Newcastle. It was usually completely packed all the way up to Birmingham, and North of York became fairly comfortable.
I'm no fan of Corbyn's but it seems crazy that we can't cope with the idea that train could be packed at one point and not at another.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
He certainly looked like he was enjoying himself there on the floor - having a bit of a smile and a chuckle.
I have often sat on a Virgin floor from London to Manchester (my dentist is in London ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) )
But, more often than not, I am then upgraded to first class when the staff walk through. Seems fair enough to me.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Anyone who travels on peak time services out of London knows that this is always true. The trains are always close to full, and if you don't have a reservation and don't arrive early, it is often difficult to find a seat.
Even when you have a booked seat, and also on off peak trains, the start of the journey is regularly spent finding your booked seat and persuading the person already sitting in it that it is reserved for you.
I've ended up standing on occasion even on the right train with an advance ticket because the person in my booked seat was not moving.
It's not helped by the reservation system on some trains that doesn't use those white tickets on the back of the seats but instead the indicator is in a little electronic screen on the side of the train above the seats. People sometimes board before that system is switched on.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
The hosts may have failed to stop the US Presidential Election thread descending into a discussion of the Gallipoli campaign, but are keen by way of penitence to stop this thread descending into a train discussion.
Thank you for your cooperation.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Okay. Let's assume Corbyn's a lying liar from Lyington. There were plenty of unreserved seats, enough for everyone to sit down.
You might want to ask yourself about all the other passengers who were sitting in the corridors on the same train. But you'll probably come to the conclusion that that was also Corbyn's fault. Like Schrodinger's immigrant (simultaneously taking our job and claiming our benefits), we now have Corbyn's arse - simultaneously occupying all the seats and yet none of them.
I don't know (nor do I much care) whether he really did walk past a lot of available seats before parking himself on the floor for the length of time it took to make a good photo op. The pictures Virgin released certainly looked like that, but they could be misleading for all I know.
The original story he released of spending a three hour journey squatting on the floor clearly was untrue though, and he knew it, but he didn't correct it until Virgin's tweeting forced his hand. In principle though "politician fibs" isn't exactly news.
But it IS newsworthy in two respects. First, Jeremy Corbyn has made a unique selling point of his integrity and principles, the fact that he doesn't do grubby traditional politics. Except, apparently, when he does.
Secondly it speaks to the whole competence issue. Trains are often genuinely packed solid so that there would be absolutely no question of people being shuffled around and freeing up some seats after 30 minutes or so. If he had wanted to make a point with that sort of photo op he could have caught any one of several thousand trains on any day of the week and been assured of having to stand photogenically squashed into a corner with no fear of contradiction.
And then there's the question of whether that sort of publicity actually does make his point anyway. I'm old enough (as is Jeremy Corbyn) to know that in the days of nationalised railways he would have been at least as likely then as now to have had to stand in a corridor of an overcrowded train. The train might well have been too old and too filthy to sit down on the floor though.
There IS a good case to be made for re-nationalising the railways. But even if he'd gone about securing his corridor photos with sufficient thought and basic competence to avoid losing his message in all this noise, this wasn't a plausible way to make it.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
But it IS newsworthy in two respects. First, Jeremy Corbyn has made a unique selling point of his integrity and principles, the fact that he doesn't do grubby traditional politics. Except, apparently, when he does.
I dare say if Jeremy Corbyn had accepted a seat in first class and any pictures had got out lots of people would have called him a hypocrite and made out that he paid for first class or felt entitled or heaven knows what else. And that would be have been unfair politicking. So I think that it's perfectly reasonable for him to put himself in the worst possible place on a train to avoid anyone having that stick to beat him with.
What's dodgy, as Pottage says, is that Jeremy Corbyn has made himself out to be better than politicking and then deliberately had his picture taken on the floor and used it for political ends. If someone had by chance taken a photo of him sitting on the floor he would have got credit for being a man of the people and his policy would have gained weight.
It's unfair that Corbyn is held to higher standards of conduct than the newspapers but equally he's made a big thing of having higher standards. And on this occasion, he blew it.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
One might have thought his press team would have asked themselves 'I wonder if Virgin will challenge this story?' Given that, aside from any Establishment concerns about nationalisation, he is basically calling their service crap.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I've used to regularly get on the virgin train to Newcastle. It was usually completely packed all the way up to Birmingham, and North of York became fairly comfortable.
I'm no fan of Corbyn's but it seems crazy that we can't cope with the idea that train could be packed at one point and not at another.
The implication was that Jeremy had to sit on the floor for the whole journey - this was shown to be untrue.
Also, I don't see a reason why he couldn't upgrade to first class? If he paid for it out of his own pocket, then why not?
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
The implication was that Jeremy had to sit on the floor for the whole journey - this was shown to be untrue.
This is, IIRC, what the press said. Corbyn didn't.
quote:
Also, I don't see a reason why he couldn't upgrade to first class? If he paid for it out of his own pocket, then why not?
Don't you see a reason? Really?
Corbyn abandons principles to sit in plush first class
Workers' champion upgrades himself, leaves ordinary travellers sitting on floor
First class Corbyn unfit to lead, says Smith
And now?
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Forward the New Republic
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nationalizing the railways is one of the reasons I supported Jeremy a year ago. Well played that man. He's got to top that with a massive rent to buy scheme of course. That Sadiq can implement in 2025. Unless May has a Thatcher moment and realises that would guarantee her reputation and One Nation Tory government for a generation.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Corbyn has now done a press conference in which he has admitted
"Yes, I did walk through the train. Yes, I did look for two empty seats together so I could sit down with my wife, to talk to her. That wasn't possible so I went to the end of the train."
Not being able to sit next to someone isn't very surprising. It's even less surprising that a large proportion of his press conference got hijacked by it, and that he got pissed about it.
I like some of Corbyn's ideas, but this episode inevitably just gives material for people who are already thinking "what the hell was he thinking"...
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
The implication was that Jeremy had to sit on the floor for the whole journey - this was shown to be untrue.
This is, IIRC, what the press said. Corbyn didn't.
This was a press release though, wasn't it. There were no reporters on the train. The Guardian reported this because Jeremy Corbyn or his immediate team sent them the video and some nice quotes. The report was misleading. It gave the impression that he had spent the entire trip in the corridor, not that he had sat there for about as long as necessary to get some pictures and then retired to a comfy seat for two and a half hours. Having stood in train corridors for hours myself plenty of times, I wouldn't have known that the story was just so much spin if Virgin hadn't challenged him.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I've used to regularly get on the virgin train to Newcastle. It was usually completely packed all the way up to Birmingham, and North of York became fairly comfortable.
I'm no fan of Corbyn's but it seems crazy that we can't cope with the idea that train could be packed at one point and not at another.
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
The implication was that Jeremy had to sit on the floor for the whole journey - this was shown to be untrue.
I don't see that implication is necessary to make the point he made, and I don't see anything attributed directly to Corbyn that carries that implication.
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Also, I don't see a reason why he couldn't upgrade to first class? If he paid for it out of his own pocket, then why not?
I bet even Corbyn's ham-fisted press team can spot the likely outcome of that one.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
This was a press release though, wasn't it. There were no reporters on the train. The Guardian reported this because Jeremy Corbyn or his immediate team sent them the video and some nice quotes.
The headline is misleading. Without seeing the press release that led to that title it's hard to say how much was unwarranted assumption. I hardly think it is fair to describe the story as "so much spin" given that he really didn't have a seat for a fair length of time and that is an extremely common experience.
(For the record you'll see upthread that I wouldn't vote Corbyn - and by the way I wouldn't renationalize the trains either. But one has to be fair to the opposition.)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I'm not sure who benefits from this drip drip drip of smears against Corbyn - presumably, the Smith camp thinks that it does. For me, it makes the whole Labour party look sleazy and unpalatable. If this is the way that their leader is treated by those against him, why would you want them in power, whoever the leader is?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Because in politics there is no pure-as-the-driven-snow option. It's all about the least bad.
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Because in politics there is no pure-as-the-driven-snow option. It's all about the least bad.
Fair enough. It just makes Labour look like a kind of minor Mafia. Votes gerrymandered, branch meetings closed down, non-stop smears against Corbyn.
I understand that the Corbyn people would say that Labour can be cleansed of this muck. Really? I remember it 50 years ago like this, and it looks no better.
[ 24. August 2016, 12:27: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The alternative is the major mafia.
Also it's probably a leap to think that Smith and team is behind all of this. After all, the smear campaign was in full swing well before the leadership challenge.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
This was a press release though, wasn't it. There were no reporters on the train. The Guardian reported this because Jeremy Corbyn or his immediate team sent them the video and some nice quotes.
The headline is misleading. Without seeing the press release that led to that title it's hard to say how much was unwarranted assumption. I hardly think it is fair to describe the story as "so much spin" given that he really didn't have a seat for a fair length of time and that is an extremely common experience.
(For the record you'll see upthread that I wouldn't vote Corbyn - and by the way I wouldn't renationalize the trains either. But one has to be fair to the opposition.)
That's a fair point. Perhaps the Guardian headline made more of it than the release sent to them by Team Corbyn.
I wouldn't vote for him either if I were a Labour party member but this business about the train journey, as amusing as it is, wouldn't be one of the reasons for that. It is a modest example of Jeremy Corbyn's incompetence (which IS one of the reasons I wouldn't vote for him), and it's a useful reminder that he isn't a saintly figure, he's not materially different from all the other politicians. But that's pretty much it.
I'm open minded about re-nationalising the railways, but what would make my mind up would be a factual analysis of how that might affect the service, the cost, the staff and the passengers over time. That the trains are often overcrowded is an everyday experience for most people, like me, who regularly use them. But it was before privatisation as well. By and large the trains then were also less frequent, less punctual and less well maintained than they are now, but arguably those are all things that could be addressed by a re-nationalisation that didn't attempt to recreate the status quo ante.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The alternative is the major mafia.
Also it's probably a leap to think that Smith and team is behind all of this. After all, the smear campaign was in full swing well before the leadership challenge.
I think Smith is the patsy. But I doubt if he is organizing the smears and other stuff. It's like lifting a big stone in the garden, and seeing unpalatable things beneath.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The PLP should remember Scotland. Kezia Dugdale's comments on electability were amusing, in the light of Scottish Labour's recent performance, but there is a cautionary tale here.
If the PLP keep on with their sleazy tactics, who's to say that there won't be a mass turning away from Labour in disgust, whoever the leader is?
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