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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The alternative is the major mafia.
Also it's probably a leap to think that Smith and team is behind all of this. After all, the smear campaign was in full swing well before the leadership challenge.
The academics at the LSE (report here - PDF) have written about this. Their conclusion?
quote:
The results of this study show that Jeremy Corbyn was represented unfairly by the British press through a process of vilification that went well beyond the normal limits of fair debate and disagreement in a democracy. Corbyn was often denied his own voice in the reporting on him and sources that were anti Corbyn tended to outweigh those that support him and his positions. He was also systematically treated with scorn and ridicule in both the broadsheet and tabloid press in a way that no other political leader is or has been. Even more problematic, the British press has repeatedly associated Corbyn with terrorism and positioned him as a friend of the enemies of the UK. The result has been a failure to give the newspaper reading public a fair opportunity to form their own judgements about the leader of the country’s main opposition.
I think that's a fairly uncontroversial statement.
As to why, which is a more interesting topic, I have theories. I'm sure you do too.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
He's 67 I believe. Why hasn't he retired? When can we hope he will do so?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
He's 67 I believe. Why hasn't he retired? When can we hope he will do so?
Hillary Clinton's 68. Why hasn't she retired? Why should she? What are you on about?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The alternative is the major mafia.
Also it's probably a leap to think that Smith and team is behind all of this. After all, the smear campaign was in full swing well before the leadership challenge.
The academics at the LSE (report here - PDF) have written about this. Their conclusion?
quote:
The results of this study show that Jeremy Corbyn was represented unfairly by the British press through a process of vilification that went well beyond the normal limits of fair debate and disagreement in a democracy. Corbyn was often denied his own voice in the reporting on him and sources that were anti Corbyn tended to outweigh those that support him and his positions. He was also systematically treated with scorn and ridicule in both the broadsheet and tabloid press in a way that no other political leader is or has been. Even more problematic, the British press has repeatedly associated Corbyn with terrorism and positioned him as a friend of the enemies of the UK. The result has been a failure to give the newspaper reading public a fair opportunity to form their own judgements about the leader of the country’s main opposition.
I think that's a fairly uncontroversial statement.
As to why, which is a more interesting topic, I have theories. I'm sure you do too.
I think one thing that has shocked people on the left has been the role of the Guardian. Well, if you go back to the first leadership contest, the Guardian published almost daily negative stuff on Corbyn, partly from their roster of columnists, such as Jonathan Freedland, Polly Toynbee, and so on.
Now it is happening again, with the second contest. Well, I think this is naive really. Did anyone really think that the Guardian was on the left? I suppose they are gunning for the Return of the Blairites, along the lines of Nightmare on Elm St, II, Tony's Revenge.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I'm used to the Murdoch press and Daily Mail attempting (and succeeding) to destroy every Labour leader (except one) in the last 30 years and their political stances are obvious.
I'm less used to the BBC and the Guardian joining in. It's a disgrace, and to tell the truth I suspect it wasn't necessary. I'm slightly bereft of theories that make sense to tell the truth.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It just depresses me. I admire Corbyn, but when you think what is against him, bloody hell. The Tories, most of the media, his own PLP. There will be some interesting books written on this in the next decades, but not by me. Politics is in the sewer. I can't see any way back.
[ 24. August 2016, 15:08: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Could it be the belief amongst the centre of the Labour Party that Jeremy Corbyn is bringing back a Trotskyite agenda and giving access for a Trotskyite invasion, as expressed by Margaret Hodge and Tom Watson and refuted in this Guardian article
That and the current involvement of Militant (Tendency).
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Could it be the belief amongst the centre of the Labour Party that Jeremy Corbyn is bringing back a Trotskyite agenda and giving access for a Trotskyite invasion, as expressed by Margaret Hodge and Tom Watson and refuted in this Guardian article
That and the current involvement of Militant (Tendency).
Those who consider themselves as the 'centre' need to recalibrate themselves in a party which emphatically rejected the more Blairite candidates and elected Corbyn with a huge majority. I'd contend that the centre of a Labour party with 500,000+ members has shifted significantly over the last 12 months.
And 'belief' is probably the best way to describe the alleged Trotskyite invasion. Even if every Trot in the country joined the the LP, they'd now be but a drop in the ocean.
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Forward the New Republic
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Could it be the belief amongst the centre of the Labour Party that Jeremy Corbyn is bringing back a Trotskyite agenda and giving access for a Trotskyite invasion, as expressed by Margaret Hodge and Tom Watson and refuted in this Guardian article
That and the current involvement of Militant (Tendency).
What on earth is a Trotskyite agenda? Presumably, this refers to fiscal stimulus, as carried out by Obama.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
That allegation of a Trotskyite Invasion seems to be what the centre left of the PLP believe and why they are acting to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn by fair means or foul. If that is the scuttlebutt in the Westminster bubble, it might explain the support of the Press. A very ideological pitch to dispose of the troublesome priest, and all that.
I think it's pretty scary that we're so far down the neoliberal agenda and the right of capitalism and market forces to reign supreme that a fairly moderate leftist manifesto is being seen as so radical.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quetzalcoatl - Trotskyite Invasion is a quotation from an interview with Margaret Hodge last week and Trotskyite Agenda was a quotation from the Guardian link. It is what is being said within the Parliamentary Labour Party.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That allegation of a Trotskyite Invasion seems to be what the centre left of the PLP believe and why they are acting to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn by fair means or foul. If that is the scuttlebutt in the Westminster bubble, it might explain the support of the Press. A very ideological pitch to dispose of the troublesome priest, and all that.
I think it's pretty scary that we're so far down the neoliberal agenda and the right of capitalism and market forces to reign supreme that a fairly moderate leftist manifesto is being seen as so radical.
Well, yes, social democracy itself is being impugned, since that's how I see Corbyn. As to why this is now intolerable, when it was a kind of consensus after the war - is troubling to think about. How far to the right can we go? It depends partly on how you see Brexit.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm used to the Murdoch press and Daily Mail attempting (and succeeding) to destroy every Labour leader (except one) in the last 30 years and their political stances are obvious.
I'm less used to the BBC and the Guardian joining in. It's a disgrace, and to tell the truth I suspect it wasn't necessary. I'm slightly bereft of theories that make sense to tell the truth.
Chatting with a friend about this, who said that the right wing are determined to crush Corbyn, who represents social democracy, or the postwar consensus. So the so-called liberal media such as the BBC and the Guardian are being recruited for this, ditto the PLP (or sections of it).
I don't know if this is true - it sounds paranoid, on the other hand, it sounds plausible.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Young people are far less swayed by newspapers or the BBC.
We'll see what happens.
Why do the Right hate social democracy so much?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Young people are far less swayed by newspapers or the BBC.
We'll see what happens.
Why do the Right hate social democracy so much?
I think humans oscillate between individual greed and collective welfare. After the war, there was a strong mood for the latter, expressed via social democracy, but also One Nation Toryism, but 30 years later, this began to fray, and we got the celebration of the entrepreneur. Today there seems to be a contest! But of course, the right wing have the wealth, the media, and so on. I must admit that it scares me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Chatting with a friend about this, who said that the right wing are determined to crush Corbyn, who represents social democracy, or the postwar consensus. So the so-called liberal media such as the BBC and the Guardian are being recruited for this, ditto the PLP (or sections of it).
What is "the right wing" and how does it (whatever it is) recruit a major broadcaster and a national newspaper?
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Same reason the British Left hates everybody to the right of Harold Macmillan?
xposted with quetlcoatl and Anglican't
[ 24. August 2016, 16:56: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
He's 67 I believe. Why hasn't he retired? When can we hope he will do so?
Hillary Clinton's 68. Why hasn't she retired? Why should she? What are you on about?
US politics and the US retirement age aren't relevant to this thread. How about trying to answer my question? In 5 years time this man will be 72. Suppose by some extraordinary fluke he wins the next election. His period of office wouldn't end until he is 77. Do you seriously think he would cope with the rigours of the job by that age? Is there not a retirement age for MPs, as for everybody else?
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Chatting with a friend about this, who said that the right wing are determined to crush Corbyn, who represents social democracy, or the postwar consensus. So the so-called liberal media such as the BBC and the Guardian are being recruited for this, ditto the PLP (or sections of it).
What is "the right wing" and how does it (whatever it is) recruit a major broadcaster and a national newspaper?
As far as the BBC is concerned we only have to look at Birtism, when the majority of production was outsourced (with no perceptible improvements in quality or cost savings). As far as newspapers are concerned one only has to look at the political allegiences of newspaper owners and editors.
Generally though, in response to "What is 'the right wing'?" the only valid response is that given when someone asks what jazz music is.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Is there not a retirement age for MPs, as for everybody else?
There isn't a retirement age for everybody else any more, although compulsory retirement at a certain age is less illegal in the UK than it is in the US.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Generally though, in response to "What is 'the right wing'?" the only valid response is that given when someone asks what jazz music is.
In his foreword to The Russia House, John Le Carré said of jazz players
"if such men would only run the world I would have no more conflicts to write about".
[ 24. August 2016, 17:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
What is "the right wing" and how does it (whatever it is) recruit a major broadcaster and a national newspaper?
The right wing is clearly everyone to the right of me. Duh.
How they recruit a major broadcaster and a national newspaper is by (in the case of the BBC) threaten its income stream and then are appeased by key appointments in the news room, who then go on to give the Conservatives an easy ride and lots of exposure. Nick Robinson was chair of the Young Conservatives, Andrew Neil is chair of the Spectator magazine, Kamal Ahmed was a Sunday Telegraph reporter, Laura Kuenssberg...
The Guardian? I have absolutely no idea what they're up to. I think it makes a lie out of the 'trendy lefty Islington' set running things there, because surely Corbyn - being an Islington MP - is part of that. Perhaps he's determined to make the Graun pay tax, or something. A lot - judging on the BtL comments - are really very cross about the Guardian's treatment of Corbyn.
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Forward the New Republic
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Guardian? I have absolutely no idea what they're up to. I think it makes a lie out of the 'trendy lefty Islington' set running things there, because surely Corbyn - being an Islington MP - is part of that.
Ah, but he's the wrong kind of Islington MP, and the wrong kind of trendy.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
What is "the right wing" and how does it (whatever it is) recruit a major broadcaster and a national newspaper?
The right wing is clearly everyone to the right of me. Duh.
But what are we talking about here? Are we talking about a cabal of people? Or is 'the right wing' just a euphemism for Tory politicians or the government or what? We're talking about a group of people who can, apparently, wield enormous power but I'm not really sure who we're talking about.
quote:
How they recruit a major broadcaster and a national newspaper is by (in the case of the BBC) threaten its income stream and then are appeased by key appointments in the news room, who then go on to give the Conservatives an easy ride and lots of exposure. Nick Robinson was chair of the Young Conservatives, Andrew Neil is chair of the Spectator magazine, Kamal Ahmed was a Sunday Telegraph reporter, Laura Kuenssberg...
You think Andrew Neil is soft on Tory politicians? Really? And Laura Kuennsberg is a professional journalist. Are you suggesting she is somehow incompetent or biased in that role?
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It just depresses me. I admire Corbyn, but when you think what is against him, bloody hell. The Tories, most of the media, his own PLP. There will be some interesting books written on this in the next decades, but not by me. Politics is in the sewer. I can't see any way back.
This is how I feel. I despair. Politics is in the sewer indeed, and the hatred and deliberate undermining of a decent man never seems to end. The bile shown towards Corbyn by Labour MPs and some members/supporters is worse and more venom-filled than that shown towards Cameron, but why?
No amount of 'incompetence' warrants the treatment he receives. Boris gets a sort of 'oh, boys will be boys' attitude for his spectacular incompetence, and Corbyn is pretty much accused of being Beelzebub whatever he does or says.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It just depresses me. I admire Corbyn, but when you think what is against him, bloody hell. The Tories, most of the media, his own PLP. There will be some interesting books written on this in the next decades, but not by me. Politics is in the sewer. I can't see any way back.
This is how I feel. I despair. Politics is in the sewer indeed, and the hatred and deliberate undermining of a decent man never seems to end. The bile shown towards Corbyn by Labour MPs and some members/supporters is worse and more venom-filled than that shown towards Cameron, but why?
No amount of 'incompetence' warrants the treatment he receives. Boris gets a sort of 'oh, boys will be boys' attitude for his spectacular incompetence, and Corbyn is pretty much accused of being Beelzebub whatever he does or says.
I thought that some in the PLP would prefer Cameron to Corbyn. Didn't Blair make a speech along those lines? Not just that Corbyn is not electable, but should not be elected at all.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As to why [the smears against Corbyn], which is a more interesting topic, I have theories. I'm sure you do too.
Maybe because the incompetence of Mr Corbyn's press team is without precedent?
quote:
Those who consider themselves as the 'centre' need to recalibrate themselves in a party which emphatically rejected the more Blairite candidates and elected Corbyn with a huge majority. I'd contend that the centre of a Labour party with 500,000+ members has shifted significantly over the last 12 months.
They have recalibrated, hence their support for a candidate who wants rail renationalisation and massive infrastructure spending.
But MPs are answerable to VOTERS, not just party members, and I see no evidence that their constituents have swung significantly to the left. The Corbynistas' belief that only their own vote counts as democratic is somewhat troubling. It is almost as though they regarded themselves as some kind of revolutionary vanguard ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
How about trying to answer my question?
Only by ignoring your blatant ageism, yes, okay. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:
In 5 years time this man will be 72. Suppose by some extraordinary fluke he wins the next election. His period of office wouldn't end until he is 77. Do you seriously think he would cope with the rigours of the job by that age?
Do I seriously think that? Unless you have a hotline to his GP and know otherwise, yes. Lots of people - a very great number of people - have busy, active lives deep into what we used to consider old age.
So, knock yourself out explaining how recently-elected Nigerian president Buhari is incapable at 73, or Aung San Suu Kyi at 71 (or Burma's president at 70), Portia Simpson-Millar (Jamaican leader of the opposition, 70), or indeed the aforementioned Hillary Clinton or her Democratic rival Bernie (74) are unfit for office.
Or are you simply now clutching at straws?
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Forward the New Republic
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The Corbynistas' belief that only their own vote counts as democratic is somewhat troubling.
I think you'll find that's the PLP and the NEC...
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Forward the New Republic
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
You think Andrew Neil is soft on Tory politicians? Really? And Laura Kuennsberg is a professional journalist. Are you suggesting she is somehow incompetent or biased in that role?
There is some evidence in aggregate that there is a bias: https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-biased-is-the-bbc-17028 and there is the general danger in groupthink when everyone at a particular level of a corporation is of a certain ideological stripe.
Furthermore, the bias extends further than political ideology. Take the ever present 'Adam Smith Institute' - regularly featured, without its biases ever being examined, explained or necessarily balanced out.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So, knock yourself out explaining how recently-elected Nigerian president Buhari is incapable at 73, or Aung San Suu Kyi at 71 (or Burma's president at 70), Portia Simpson-Millar (Jamaican leader of the opposition, 70), or indeed the aforementioned Hillary Clinton or her Democratic rival Bernie (74) are unfit for office.
I didn't say they were incapable. I just said I had doubts about anyone of that age coping with the rigours of the job. You need to be robust to cope with all the short-notice long-distance travel, the social functions and dinners, the ceremonies, the emergencies and all the meetings and summits and appearances in the House of Commons. The British and US heads of state possibly have a more active role in those respects than than the Jamaican and Burmese. You need to be physically fit and energetic to sustain it day in, day out for five years.
And I could be wrong but I doubt that the social side of things is Corbyn's natural home.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I didn't say they were incapable. I just said I had doubts about anyone of that age coping with the rigours of the job.
Considering how many meetings, often open air, he's done in the Referendum and his two almost back-to-back elections, I opine that your doubts amount to little than yet more smears.
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Forward the New Republic
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Considering how many meetings, often open air, he's done in the Referendum and his two almost back-to-back elections, I opine that your doubts amount to little than yet more smears.
Lots of international travel and ceremonies as well? Excellent.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Considering how many meetings, often open air, he's done in the Referendum and his two almost back-to-back elections, I opine that your doubts amount to little than yet more smears.
Lots of international travel and ceremonies as well? Excellent.
Well, remember how he needed Cameron's mum's advice on how to dress for state occasions? Or did you conveniently forget that he's Leader of HM Opposition? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, remember how he needed Cameron's mum's advice on how to dress for state occasions? Or did you conveniently forget that he's Leader of HM Opposition?
These were held abroad, were they?
He can call himself what he wants. He may be nominally Leader of the Opposition, but the Opposition is in a very sorry state because of him.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
He can call himself what he wants.
No, that's his official title. That's what he is. Perhaps it's parliamentary democracy you have a problem with? I mean, how dare someone be elected an MP and then the leader of the second largest party at Westminster without consulting you first...
( )
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Forward the New Republic
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The Corbynistas' belief that only their own vote counts as democratic is somewhat troubling.
I think you'll find that's the PLP and the NEC...
I will admit that, in the light of stories such as this one (Labour still not managed to sort out security for its September conference), it is possible that Iain McNicol may have exceeded Mr Corbyn in the incompetence stakes.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm used to the Murdoch press and Daily Mail attempting (and succeeding) to destroy every Labour leader (except one) in the last 30 years and their political stances are obvious.
I'm less used to the BBC and the Guardian joining in. It's a disgrace, and to tell the truth I suspect it wasn't necessary. I'm slightly bereft of theories that make sense to tell the truth.
Accusations of massive media bias against a 'different kind' of politician who refuses to play the normal political game, refuses to compromise to get his party politicians on board, and has political views some way away from the mainstream?
Now where have I heard that before?
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
[QUOTE]Boris gets a sort of 'oh, boys will be boys' attitude for his spectacular incompetence, and Corbyn is pretty much accused of being Beelzebub whatever he does or says.
The reasons Boris gets a bye unlike JC are
(a) Boris plays the media and JC disdains such things.
(b) JC can't even discuss nationalising the railways without being monumentally incompetent*, and reporting incompetence is the right thing for the press to do. Whereas Boris was a too-competent Brexit campaigner after being a highly competent Mayor.
*And I'm particularly annoyed on this latest bit of incompetence, because I think nationalising the railways is a good idea. By saying a supposedly packed train is a good example of a failing system he wants to fix, he undermined the case for nationalisation because he got it wrong.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Accusations of massive media bias against a 'different kind' of politician who refuses to play the normal political game, refuses to compromise to get his party politicians on board, and has political views some way away from the mainstream?
Now where have I heard that before?
I don't know.
[ 24. August 2016, 20:39: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Whereas Boris was a too-competent Brexit campaigner after being a highly competent Mayor.
I would not have described Boris as highly competent myself. There was apparently some good stuff done, but also too many eyecatching follies (a cable car, the garden bridge, the new routemasters).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
I'm particularly annoyed on this latest bit of incompetence, because I think nationalising the railways is a good idea. By saying a supposedly packed train is a good example of a failing system he wants to fix, he undermined the case for nationalisation because he got it wrong.
I disagree that he has been at all incompetent on this issue. The train was packed; there may have been one or two separate unreserved seats available but I see nothing wrong with wanting two seats together and sitting on the floor in that instance. Clearly other passengers had done the same and have stated as such. Corbyn may be incompetent in some matters and not the best of leaders but this has been blown up out of all proportion and has yet again sullied his reputation - in my opinion completely unjustly.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Now where have I heard that before?
Probably said about Hitler too but I doubt that's an appropriate parallel either.
I think it is pretty clear that the media really does have it in for Corbyn. There was an independent study quoted up the thread which provided quantitative data in support of this.
The parallel with Trump is a bit like sneering at any defendant in the dock that "they all claim innocence don't they?".
Where there is a parallel with Trump is the pattern of having very strong support by constituency groups, but almost no support in the party and weak support in the mainstream of the Country as a whole. I'd also see a parallel in the appeal to rather simplistic solutions, but there the parallels end. Corbyn is an honourable man, whatever one thinks about his competence as leader, and his attempts to articulate a political vision, ham-fisted as they are, are genuine attempts and not simply hubristic narcissism.
It's a very unfair comparison in that sense.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Young people are far less swayed by newspapers or the BBC.
Unfortunately they are too small a demographic to make a difference, as shown by Brexit where they voted strongly for remain but were out-voted by those over 40. Although the heartening thing is that this implies that as they 15-35 year old cohort grow up the power of the Murdoch/Dacre press (or whatever takes their place) will dwindle.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
He can call himself what he wants.
No, that's his official title. That's what he is. Perhaps it's parliamentary democracy you have a problem with? I mean, how dare someone be elected an MP and then the leader of the second largest party at Westminster without consulting you first...
I have no idea how you jumped to that and I think you’re getting disproportionately personal.
Very few hard left voters want to believe that Corbyn is anything other than a living saint and a model to us all, and if only we would open our eyes we would see the glory that is Jeremy and be converted. I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. I can't take him seriously as "Leader of the Opposition" when the opposition is in such a mess, basically because of him, and also because of the way he's conducted himself since he got in. The man has been a backbench rebel for years. That's what he's best at – not in the front line, not as a potential head of state or a leader. I also consider him untrustworthy. We will have to disagree on that.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
According to this morning's Guardian (which might now be discredited as part of a shadowy right-wing nexus, it's hard to keep up) as the train story was building on Tuesday it became difficult to reach Mr Corbyn as he was busy making jam.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
As a LibDem supporter I have a great deal of time for what Corbyn is saying and stands for. However I don't think that he has shown himself to be a good enough leader of the Parliamentary Party, and his conduct in the Brexit campaign appears to have been woeful, even if that was simply because he doesn't seem to have the now-necessary gift of massaging the media.
On the wider level, I think Labour have the problem they have faced ever since Michael Foot's days: they can remain true to their left-wing roots and be unelectable, or they can move to the centre and get into power. To my mind Tony Blair - admittedly standing against a divided and incoherent Tory party - succeeded in the latter, but only by disguising fairly right-wing notions in language which seemed to say something rather different.
What Labour needs to do s reinvent itself as a Socialist party which understands and challenges on its own terms the twenty-first century environment of cyber-business, insecure and often unorganised labour, the power of the international markets and so on, rather than returning to a model suited to a long-gone past. I'm sure that there must be many politicians who recognise this; but in my opinion no-one seems to have come up with a coherent and attractive model.
(Labour also have the huge problem of the loss of their Scottish seats; somehow they have to demonstrate that they are not irremediably London-centric, as they wait for the SNP to implode or shoot itself in the foot).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
According to this morning's Guardian (which might now be discredited as part of a shadowy right-wing nexus, it's hard to keep up) as the train story was building on Tuesday it became difficult to reach Mr Corbyn as he was busy making jam.
... to bring with him on his next train trip, so as to be able to say truthfully that the train was jam-packed?
[ 25. August 2016, 07:57: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
You think Andrew Neil is soft on Tory politicians? Really? And Laura Kuennsberg is a professional journalist. Are you suggesting she is somehow incompetent or biased in that role?
There is some evidence in aggregate that there is a bias: https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-biased-is-the-bbc-17028 and there is the general danger in groupthink when everyone at a particular level of a corporation is of a certain ideological stripe.
Furthermore, the bias extends further than political ideology. Take the ever present 'Adam Smith Institute' - regularly featured, without its biases ever being examined, explained or necessarily balanced out.
My experience is somewhat different. Just the other day I heard someone being introduced as being from the Adam Smith Institute, I instinctively knew that there would be another contributor to balance him out. There was, a trade union official. He disappointed me slightly as I felt a 'left of centre' academic could have made the debate more interesting and challenged the ideas better.
I think this claim of BBC bias is massively overdone. Yes there may be a little but the rigorous (non-partisan) studies I have come across have found the discrepancies not that great. Now factor in how problematic it has often been to get a Corbyn representative* and that seems to explain most of the problem. In the end Corbyn's team have got to learn how to use the BBC because one thing is sure they give him a much fairer hearing than Fox News would or a Daily Mail funded broadcaster.
*This has been acknowledged by some of his natural allies - Owen Jones.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Although the heartening thing is that this implies that as they 15-35 year old cohort grow up the power of the Murdoch/Dacre press (or whatever takes their place) will dwindle.
Don't hold your breath. Remember the hippies and all their peace and love stuff that surely presaged a new kind of politics once the older generation died out? They're now the conservative, right-wing, politically-dominant generation.
Youthful idealism seldom survives contact with the real world.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm 50, and I'm far more left wing now than I was in my twenties. (I was a paid-up member of the SDP, FFS).
I think my youthful idealism involved thinking that people were basically decent and wanted the best for everyone. Then, as Marvin says, I encountered the real world...
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Forward the New Republic
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