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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Neo-liberal, in this context, means Blairite: more interested in the City and its love of moving money around with no questions asked, and in pursuit of fame and its attributes than in integrity or the interests of inconvenient people with little money and no connections in Washington.
If Labour is going to actually hold onto power and itself at the same time, it needs to remember that its power comes from serving, not from lip service, patronising and betrayal.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Were it not for his age, for my money he'd make a good contender for leader.
Yeah, I mean what the country really need now is a Leader of the Opposition whose main achievements in public life have largely involved taking the piss out of Black Rod during the state opening of Parliament.
It's not a bad start. Skinner's achievements are understated; they mostly consist of being a supportive constituency MP. There's a reason that Bolsover has remained a safe seat long after the coal was sealed underground.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Maybe Tony Blair would be interested in leading the Labour Party again. Whaddya reckon?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
What'd be the point? Even if we needed two Tory parties (we don't) they way they're going at the moment we might soon have them.
Well, a man can dream can't he?
[ 27. June 2016, 20:40: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Neo-liberal, in this context, means Blairite: more interested in the City and its love of moving money around with no questions asked, and in pursuit of fame and its attributes than in integrity or the interests of inconvenient people with little money and no connections in Washington.
If Labour is going to actually hold onto power and itself at the same time, it needs to remember that its power comes from serving, not from lip service, patronising and betrayal.
I love the way that neoliberal means Blairite. We have had six years of Cameron and Osborne and we are now on the verge of being taking out of the EU by Incitatus and Gove, but no, the real enemy is anyone in the Labour Party who isn't convinced that a policy of warmed over Bennism is the way to do something to stop the country going to hell in a hand basket. Trust me, our children cowering in the backs of lorries where they will be smuggled into Scotland to work as hop-pickers will look back on the reign of Good King Tony as a halcyon era compared to what is to come unless the Labour party is led by someone credible. Which part of this is a national emergency are people currently struggling with?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Right, let me be a little clearer.
Blairite works as a description because, to my mind, he was/is fundamentally a Thatcherite who wanted to manage hardline free market monetarism slightly differently, and with a few mitigating measures round the edge.
My point is that we don't need a Labour party that does that; the divisions in the Conservative party will cover that base, since it is really a version of the One Nation Tory position.
What we need is someone fundamentally different who, for example, is sceptical about austerity and the prioritisation of corporate interests that it represents, will not use every opportunity to make money for their little friends in public/private partnerships, and generally behaves as if they might know what society actually is.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
We are on the verge of a national catastrophe. Jeremy Corbyn is clearly not up to the job. I have no idea whether anyone else is but it would be fairly difficult to appoint someone who would be worse.
Ed Milliband wasn't up to the job either. They can't afford a third mistake. It has to be someone who could win the next election and that means someone who looks and sounds like a world leader and not just a Labour party leader. I can see Keir Starmer having that kind of appeal. I happen to like Hilary Benn too.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Right, let me be a little clearer.
Blairite works as a description because, to my mind, he was/is fundamentally a Thatcherite who wanted to manage hardline free market monetarism slightly differently, and with a few mitigating measures round the edge.
My point is that we don't need a Labour party that does that; the divisions in the Conservative party will cover that base, since it is really a version of the One Nation Tory position.
What we need is someone fundamentally different who, for example, is sceptical about austerity and the prioritisation of corporate interests that it represents, will not use every opportunity to make money for their little friends in public/private partnerships, and generally behaves as if they might know what society actually is.
Oh, FFS, these words all mean something. He wasn't a Thatcherite. He fought Thatcherites in three general elections and beat them handsomely. He wasn't a monetarist. It's an economic doctrine which was pursued by Sir Geoffrey Howe and then quietly abandoned after the 1983 election. He was comparatively right-wing for a Labour leader but he wasn't really a One Nation Tory, either.
Broadly speaking, if you don't like austerity, the main thing to do is to stop Incitatus and Gove in their tracks. If you don't like Public-Private Partnerships, well, I sympathise, but that's really not a priority at present. You may not like corporate interests but, trust me, at the moment the City of London are on our side and if you care about society and solidarity then, presumably, you want the racists who have emerged from under their stones in the last few days to be driven back there. The odds are against us but with a Labour Party led by someone who can appeal to a broader constituency than Momentum we might be in with a chance. But if you are going to define the political spectrum between socialist virtue incarnate in Mr Corbyn and everyone else you can watch everything burn whilst congratulating yourself on your ideological purity. Your call.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Trust me, our children cowering in the backs of lorries where they will be smuggled into Scotland to work as hop-pickers will look back on the reign of Good King Tony as a halcyon era compared to what is to come unless the Labour party is led by someone credible. Which part of this is a national emergency are people currently struggling with?
This is exactly the point. More than a decade after Blair disgraced himself over Iraq, it's easy to forget that he was one of the most popular and successful Prime Ministers of all time. Corbyn never could be, because his brand of socialism, while it may appeal to a certain group, even some represented on this thread, is fundamentally opposed to the naturally liberal tendencies of the British people. Right wing columnist Peter Hitchens often complains that there's hardly any difference between Blair and Cameron. In many ways that's what the British people want. The days of Labour or Tories getting 50% of the vote are long gone.They now get in the 20's. No political consensus will ever form around a politician like Corbyn. Labour needs an electable leader.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You are going to get competing visions of the future, Johnson and co want us to become more like America, Farage and co want us to become a protectionist state with a privileged dominant culture closer to how Australia or New Zealand operate and I think Corbyn's version would be something like Norway's social organisation.
I'd much rather we be like Australia or New Zealand than America or Norway. Way to make Farage sound like the desirable choice!
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Those of us on the side of the dreamers and idealists say rather that it is our job to show that our dream is not impossible, that we can do better, and that it's worth voting for the dream because it can be achieved.
I don't object to Mr Corbyn because I think he's idealistic or impractical. I object to him because I think he's incompetent.
Besides, the Leave campaign appealed to many things, but I would not say 'pragmatism' was one of them.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Those of us on the side of the dreamers and idealists say rather that it is our job to show that our dream is not impossible, that we can do better, and that it's worth voting for the dream because it can be achieved.
I don't object to Mr Corbyn because I think he's idealistic or impractical. I object to him because I think he's incompetent.
But many did. Perhaps you're one of the dreamers.
quote:
Besides, the Leave campaign appealed to many things, but I would not say 'pragmatism' was one of them.
It was pretty hot on cynicism though. All that banging on about unelected bureaucrats. But I wasn't really thinking about the EU referendum here. More the general tenor of UK politics of late.
[ 27. June 2016, 21:24: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
A little more forensic analysis, then.
Let us detach the people, and the pursuit of power, from the policies supported, and then enacted while in power. Blair did indeed fight Thatcherites in order to win power, but he did it by convincing people that he could implement Thatcherism slightly better than the Thatcherites themselves.
In a country so torn apart by the legacy of Thatcherism that a complete clusterfuck like voting to leave the EU can occur, simply in order to remind the ruling elite that there are whole communities still needing to rediscover a point from the final collapse of mass employment in heavy industry during the mid 1980s, simply reinforcing that ideology will not do as a reconciling force. We need to come out of this process with a stronger society that actually functions better than what we went in with, not merely an immediate solution to the current bind. This involves having politicians who promulgate ideas which make a difference to those left behind, rather than merely placating those whose privilege is already so cemented in place that nothing, not even the current earthquake, will seriously threaten to dislodge it.
I'm not saying that Corbyn is in line for beatification, or that there is no alternative. I am saying that retreating to the policies which did nothing, after 13 years of allegedly Labour government, to touch the sides with these people (this being the process that broke their loyalty, after all) is really not a clever idea. That would result in the final total shattering of our society in a cacophony of competing interest groups whose primary conviction was of their mutual exclusivity.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I love the way that neoliberal means Blairite.
There are a fairly large number of people who would say that the two terms have large areas of overlap.
The problem with your analysis is that if you actually look at the depressed areas of the UK (those 'traditional Labour heartlands'), their circumstances haven't really changed in kind since Labour left office. Yes, there have been the effects of austerity, and I'm not minimizing them - but fundamentally austerity hit those areas so hard because they had very little else going for them. It's not as if they had a functioning economy back in 2007 that has since upsticks and walked.
Blair pursued a generally neo-liberal agenda, parallel to that he had a certain amount of re-distribution of the proceeds from the South East going on (though one wonders to what extent this was Brown rather than Blair). There was no real attempt to revive those post industrial areas at all.
I agree that in the present particular set of circumstances a Blair like figure is preferable to either Johnson or Gove, but there really is no one around with that combination of talent, charisma and drive. (Most of the current crop lack the first two, and the other Milliband seems to lack the last, if his subsequent movements are anything to judge by).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But many did. Perhaps you're one of the dreamers.
FWIW, I think his opponents in the leadership election must take some responsibility for running a joint campaign of 'Corbyn will make us unelectable', instead of 'This is why his ideas are wrong and ours are better'.
quote:
It was pretty hot on cynicism though. All that banging on about unelected bureaucrats. But I wasn't really thinking about the EU referendum here. More the general tenor of UK politics of late.
There seems to be a widespread opinion that all facts and statistics are manipulated for political purposes and that all experts have an axe to grind. Which leads to a weird mix of cynicism and idealism - no point arguing about trade figures because economists don't know what they're talking about, but we can vote out to satisfy some nebulous ideal of 'taking control'.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[qb] But many did. Perhaps you're one of the dreamers.
FWIW, I think his opponents in the leadership election must take some responsibility for running a joint campaign of 'Corbyn will make us unelectable', instead of 'This is why his ideas are wrong and ours are better'.
In his autobiography AJP Taylor recalls his experience of denouncing appeasement in the 1930s. He invariably got the same response. "What you say means war. We want peace". Of course, they got war in the end, anyway. Something similar happened to Liz Kendall. Kendall pointed out that Labour lost in 2015 because floating voters stayed with the Tories and set forth policies that might convince them otherwise. People responded: "what you want means Blairism. We want an end to austerity". Thanks to the EU vote and the fact that Jeremy Corbyn isn't a credible leader of the opposition we look set to get levels of austerity that make George Osborne look like Gordon Brown on steroids. Broadly speaking if a politician is offering you the moon on a stick (glares pointedly at the Labour Party and Leave voters) they are almost certainly deluding either themselves or you.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
No Confidence vote:
172 votes against Jeremy Corbyn
40 in support
4 abstentions
Chief Whip and PLP Leader talking with Jeremy Corbyn.
What next?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Crikey he's toughing it out - "Corbyn says no confidence vote has no constitutional legitimacy".
Can a leadership election be forced or not?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
What a fool. He has to go. Not even enough supporters to form a shadow cabinet.
He's got good policies. He is a decent and honourable man (I think). And he is a leader - just not the sort of leader we want or need (more's the pity, I like a leadership that gives space to others and is not authoritarian).
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
All they have to do is pick and nominate a candidate. They did not require a vote of no confidence or the resignation of the shadow cabinet to do this.
What they are trying to do, is to get Corbyn to resign so that a candidate doesn't have to run against him.
The reason they want to do this, is because they know that there is a very good chance he will win another leadership election. Which is a direct attempt to subvert the rules about how the party leader is chosen.
They are now also desperate, because having done this, if Corbyn carries the ordinary members with him they'll clearly think twice about deselecting MPs as candidates who stabbed him in the back, come the next election. An election that may happen quite soon.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
With the party members? I hope so! He's got my vote.
Alistair Campbell was just on, very good rhetoric. He's RIGHT. Jeremy isn't primarily interested in winning elections. GOOD! He is almost single-handedly Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, a job he should have for life.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Crikey he's toughing it out - "Corbyn says no confidence vote has no constitutional legitimacy".
Can a leadership election be forced or not?
I don't think that's the point, is it? In a new contest, Corbyn would win again, unless the rules are changed, which is unlikely.
Well, the Blairites and Brownites have made their coup, but will it work?
I don't really understand their argument, since most Labour voters supported Remain, about the same as SNP voters, I think.
The other stuff is just saying that they don't like him, well, we knew that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think he is right to force a leadership election even if he loses it, because that is what the process is supposed to be - not deals in back rooms.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, the Blairites/Brownites are trying to avoid a leadership contest, obviously. They would probably lose.
It's all a bit farcical, since everybody knew that most of the plp doesn't like Corbyn.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I also think they have behaved extremely badly, the honourable way to do this would have been for someone to decide to stand, resign from the shadow cabinet if they were in it and run for the office. Paralysing the opposition at the same time was unnecessary and not in the national or party interest.
[ 28. June 2016, 16:30: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It also pisses me off because despite the way they have plotting, briefing against him and arising about for 10 months - he honoured his pledge of an inclusive cabinet and not trying to stir his supporters to deselect MPs.
And then they indulge in this massive tantrum - as if it had anything to do with the referendum.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It also pisses me off because despite the way they have plotting, briefing against him and arising about for 10 months - he honoured his pledge of an inclusive cabinet and not trying to stir his supporters to deselect MPs.
And then they indulge in this massive tantrum - as if it had anything to do with the referendum.
Yes, the referendum is an excuse, since as I said above, Labour voters voted Remain in the same proportion as SNP.
It is ironic that the right wing should immobilize Labour, just as the Tories are in disarray. I guess they will blame Corbyn for that as well. It reminds me of those famous marital arguments, you made me hit you!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Well then. If they pick and nominate a candidate, and Corbyn wins again, what will happen after that? Will they secede and form SDP Mark II?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Well then. If they pick and nominate a candidate, and Corbyn wins again, what will happen after that? Will they secede and form SDP Mark II?
That is the ball-breaker, I guess. I think it's a ghastly historical reminder of what happens to split-away parties. They become remnants, and the Tories prosper.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Possibly, some will defect - partly because the lib dems are going to campaign for remain and partly because they'll fear deselection by the local parties if he wins. Some may say sod this and resign triggering by elections.
[ 28. June 2016, 16:43: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yeah, but Corbyn is the splitter. He made us split.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Whatever the rights of wrongs of calling the no-confidence vote ...
How can HM Opposition carry on under Jeremy Corbyn if he has insufficient MP's to fill his cabinet? If he goes to the Labour Party membership and wins - what then?
It's so stupid. He's got to go.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Whatever the rights of wrongs of calling the no-confidence vote ...
How can HM Opposition carry on under Jeremy Corbyn if he has insufficient MP's to fill his cabinet? If he goes to the Labour Party membership and wins - what then?
It's so stupid. He's got to go.
What is stupid is that half the shadow cabinet couldn't stand Corbyn, and were probably plotting against him from the time he was elected. Maybe they should go.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think we can cope without a shadow leader of the house for a couple of weeks.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Maybe this whole Labour crisis is a clever wheeze to get the Tories to call a snap GE.
No I don't really think that either.
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arse
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
There's no need for the Cabinet to be as big as it normally is, and there's certainly no need for any shadow cabinet to be as big as it normally is.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
The Tories, who by rights should be divided after the referendum went against a Tory government, probably can't believe their luck! Both the major parties have been kicked in the teeth and with the exception of Cameron falling on his sword a year or so before he might otherwise have done, they are still there and will be until 2020.
Labour. You've fucked up again.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Has a party leader ever managed to carry on after losing a no-confidence vote as badly as 172:40? Like him or not, it's a pretty overwhelming result.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The Tories, who by rights should be divided after the referendum went against a Tory government, probably can't believe their luck! Both the major parties have been kicked in the teeth and with the exception of Cameron falling on his sword a year or so before he might otherwise have done, they are still there and will be until 2020.
Labour. You've fucked up again.
The Blairites have fucked up again.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I don't know about that. There is a massive political realignment going on - it is by no means clear which party will end up strongest long term.
What may happen is that the tories split into turbo capitalists, and some version of ukip, the liberals get bigger and labour become more left wing.
[ 28. June 2016, 16:55: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Whatever the rights of wrongs of calling the no-confidence vote ...
How can HM Opposition carry on under Jeremy Corbyn if he has insufficient MP's to fill his cabinet? If he goes to the Labour Party membership and wins - what then?
It's so stupid. He's got to go.
What is stupid is that half the shadow cabinet couldn't stand Corbyn, and were probably plotting against him from the time he was elected. Maybe they should go.
Well, that sure would give us a Tory government for ever.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Has a party leader ever managed to carry on after losing a no-confidence vote as badly as 172:40? Like him or not, it's a pretty overwhelming result.
But what does it change? Everyone knew that the plp didn't like Corbyn. Watch PMQs, and see the Blair/Brownites glowering behind him, or next to him.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I don't know about that. There is a massive political realignment going on - it is by no means clear which party will end up strongest long term.
What may happen is that the tories split into turbo capitalists, and some version of ukip, the liberals get bigger and labour become more left wing.
Well, it's FPTP that screws it up. Otherwise, smaller parties would get a decent number of MPs, and you would get coalitions.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
If someone can survive the kind of rebellion that Corbyn is currently undergoing then whose to say he doesn't possess the necessary character to lead the country through these difficult times?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If someone can survive the kind of rebellion that Corbyn is currently undergoing then whose to say he doesn't possess the necessary character to lead the country through these difficult times?
It's positively Churchillian!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
There is precisely fuck all evidence they consulted either their constituents or their local parties on this either. It's not as if they don't have the contact lists, I've had several Labour Party emails since the referendum result including one from my local labour mp. Nothing asking what I think about this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
What is amusing in a sort of dark way, is that some of the right-wing are complaining about chaos in the party. Yes, you've brought it on with your plotting.
They forgot one of Napoleon's great maxims: never interrupt your enemy while he's making a mistake.
[ 28. June 2016, 17:15: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Still struck by how much all this is dependent upon the lack of elasticity in ridings results.
You can act however you want because your riding always votes for your party.
Ya'll need a lot more "independents" over there, instead of "labour voters" or "Tory voters" or whatever voters. Would keep your pols in line.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's civil war time in the Labour Party. There will be an leadership election. And this is a lot more complicated than some kind of binary New Labour v Old Labour battle.
Constituency MPs represent everyone in their constituencies, so they hear stuff at grass roots level, not just activist level. Maybe some are just running scared about an early election? But I'm sure that's not all of the 172. I think many of them really believe the party is in real trouble.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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