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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This isn't about middle England.
Oh Martin. We do this with Middle England or Boris does. We do not have time for experiments with Baroque neo-Bennery.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This isn't about middle England.
Whatever you may think of Blair, he was certainly electable, at least in 1997. After 18 years of the Tories, he swept to power bringing with him a euphoric brave new world. I was never happier with a decision of the electorate in my life. Winning middle England contributed to his landslide victory, though to be fair, he polled a million less votes than John Major did in 1993. With Labour in meltdown in Scotland, Labour has a mountain to climb to win a UK general election and Corbyn's appeal is too narrow to carry it off.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
But has anyone else got broader appeal?
Any challenge surely has to be broader than Labour?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
16,000 new members have joined Labour in the last 3 days, according to John McDonnell, "to support Jeremy".
Apparently the Lib Dems have acquired more than 10,000 new members since the EU exit vote.
At least interest in politics hasn't died out....
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If Corbyn were the decent and honourable man referred to at the beginning of this thread, he'd now do whatever is necessary to call a new election for leader of the PLP.
Your assumption of what is morally correct here is based on the result you would prefer.
Well of course I have no dog in this fight. But Corbyn was as clearly unelectable as so many Labor leaders here. Take for example Bill Hayden - a lovely man, decent, honourable and a loyal deputy. A hard worker who was popular with his department, and on top of his material. Respected by the general public. But totally unelectable as leader of the country.
I don't know how many of these qualities Corbyn has, but what he does have is the image of Michael Foot revived. If you want to get the Tories out, you need someone else.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally supported by Gee D:
I don't know how many of these qualities Corbyn has, but what he does have is the image of Michael Foot revived. If you want to get the Tories out, you need someone else.
This is the very point. When Michael Foot was leader of the Labour Party, he and it were unelectable. There was a split involving the "Gang of Four." This was when Thatcher was in power and we had 3 million unemployed! Despite this, she was never likely to lose to Foot. Neil Kinnock began to rebuild the party. When John Smith became leader, for the fist time in 15 years, the party began to look like a credible opposition. Blair's massive win in 1997 was the result of that long process.
If Corbyn stays as leader, much of this history may repeat itself. A split with the Blairite rump, the new social democrats is likely. Many years in the wilderness is a distinct possibility, especially if the economy stays robust (an unknown factor after Brexit). And the eventual realisation that Corbyn's style of socialism is not in tune with the British masses, so it must be dumped if they want to get in power. Do they never learn from history>
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
At least interest in politics hasn't died out....
It has been invigorated as never before, one good thing to come out of this debacle.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Churchill lost the election after WW11, after a great nationalist convulsion. Don't be so sure that you are looking at the relevant bit of our history.
Corbyn could be our generation's Atlee.
Has donned optimist hat.
[ 29. June 2016, 21:46: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
It beggars belief that so many of us see the 172 elected MPs as the enemy. They are not just telling Jeremy, they are telling Labour Party members that the man voted in by acclamation simply cannot lead the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Do we really believe they are unaware of Jeremy Corbyn's popularity amongst Labour Party members, that they think they can ignore that fact with impunity? It is the most obvious fact out there. What they are telling us all is that there is desperation in the Parliamentary Labour Party about the present and future electability of Labour MPs for so long as Jeremy Corbyn remains leader of the Party, leader of the opposition in Parliament. Not just that. They fear for the future of the Party if he remains as leader.
Please don't be so quick to vilify them. Of course it is an unpalatable message they are giving. And of course there may be some who are maneuvering for advantage. But sure as eggs are eggs, Margaret Beckett doesn't belong in that category.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I think the Labour Party needs to hold it's nerve in the way the Tories didn't hold theirs in the run up to last year's Election.
Cameron's referendum will go down in history as a monumental cock-up, consequently unchartered political territory lies ahead. Trying to quickly stitch together a painted shop-front Party to fight an imminent Election is panic, plain an simple.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Wow, agreeing with rolyn !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
172 panic-stricken wusses? Or even a majority of that number? I just don't believe it. I think they've just had enough.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Of what ? What is it they wanted, aside from repeating the word leadership - what did they actually want him to do ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
We'll hear more about specifics, no doubt, over the next day or so. But detecting extreme fed-upness, probably for a variety of reasons, doesn't exactly require sensitive radar. When John McDonnell compares the PLP to a "lynch mob", that gives us some idea of how poisoned relationships are.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Incidentally I tracked down the source of the claim half the labour voters didn't know the party was supporting remain:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
A memo sent at the beginning of May (so nearly six weeks before the vote) citing focus groups (not a poll) carried out in London, Brighton and Ipswich.
So they asked perhaps a hundred of the-sort-people-prepared-to-do-focus-groups whom they said were uncertain of the party's position or thought Corybn was campaigning for remain but didn't really want it.
Given that we are told not to trust polls of less than 1000, with clearly defined questions, I call bullshit on this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
This kind of 'rule by direct mandate from the people' is beginning to worry me, whether it's referenda or the appointment of a labour leader. I go to the poll booth in the conviction that Parliament is sovereign. It is the MPs who have been elected to govern, by millions of ordinary citizens, not party members. Ignoring the votes of those who'd vote labour but would not (like me) dream of joining the party, has dire consequences.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
It is the most obvious fact out there. What they are telling us all is that there is desperation in the Parliamentary Labour Party about the present and future electability of Labour MPs for so long as Jeremy Corbyn remains leader of the Party, leader of the opposition in Parliament. Not just that. They fear for the future of the Party if he remains as leader.
I think that desperation is exactly the right word. This is the political equivalent of chucking everyone up front, including the goal keeper, in the hope of scoring from a corner in the third minute of injury time when you are 1-0 down. You may not score. You may even be caught on the break and concede another goal. But as things stand, you are going to lose and you need to try and do something about it.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Callan, as plucky Johnny Major (for whom, as a rabid armchair Trot, I have immense respect) said, quoting old Otto of course, politics is the art of the possible.
Do you really think, a la PaulTH*, that the Blair-Brown Project can be resurrected? That that is possible? No you don't. That little punt down the halcyon Isis cannot be stepped in to again now that the Thames barrier is broken DOWN and England is flooded as far north as Berwick.
The working class margin (where the possible is most possible?) have stuffed it to the ruling class as they FELT shat on by the latter selling England by the Euro to Eastern Europeans and they weren't getting any:
"For Remain voters the economy was by far the most significant issue. But for Leave voters it was sovereignty and immigration:
53% the ability of Britain to make its own laws
34% immigration
3% the economy"
ed. of
Is it possible for Corbyn to appeal to these people? How about by a massive, high quality, green social housing and infrastructure (nationalize the railways of course) programme? Paid for by financial transaction tax? Taxing wealth above middle class perception?
Can Corbyn appeal to working and middle class self-interest?
Oooh and RIGID fishing limits.
Possible?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Prediction: If Corbyn is ousted, Labour will become the third party in England. New political set-up will be: Conservatives in the middle, UKIP (official oppo) on the right, Labour on the left. LDs might survive squeezed between Lab and Con or possibly make a deal with Lab.
If Corbyn is *not* ousted, Labour will become the fourth party in England. New set-up will be: Conservatives in the middle, UKIP (official oppo) on the right, Lib Dems on the left. Lab competing for voters with deep Green/ SWP / Respect.
[ 30. June 2016, 08:55: Message edited by: TurquoiseTastic ]
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
No, I think a return to Blairism is for the birds. Blair inherited a thriving economy from Kenneth Clarke at a time, ironically, when the Tories had forfeited their reputation for economic competence over the ERM recession. To be honest, I suspect that Labour Party is toast whatever happens but there is an outside chance that with a capable leader with a set of policies that appeal beyond the people who signed up to support Jeremy, that disaster may be averted. What that looks like (or not) we still have to find out but, thus far, Corbyn's record in office consists of losing Council seats as an opposition for the first time since the miners strike, a renaissance of the Tory Party in Scotland and Britain's ejection from the EU. The idea that Corbyn can turn around the Labour Party's parlous state between now and the next election would be improbable if the plan was to wait until 2020. If there's a snap election in the next few months - which seems likely - then frankly Labour is doomed. When this was put to Diane Abbott recently the best she could do was say that this was a very Westminster-centred perspective. I don't find that reassuring.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
I find myself torn on this. On the one hand, I think Corbyn bought something important to the attention of the party when he became leader: he bought the voices of a significant part of the party membership and, given the numbers who paid £3 to vote for him and the numbers who've joined the party since his election, a section of society that wanted to be part of Labour but didn't feel they could pre-Corbyn. I think, whatever his flaws as a leader, that's significant; maybe, given time (9 months isn't that long, really)those flaws could've been worked on.
I think Corbyn tried to begin to bridge the gap between the PLP and that section of the membership that elected him. I think the PLP should've listened more closely to what those members were saying when they elected Corbyn. I don't buy the "Corbyn was useless in the referendum campaign" line; I think he was just trying to articulate a more nuanced pro-Remain line and was hampered by a) the media's focus on the Tory party's squabbles and b) his own communication's team lack of success in getting their message across (I think Seamus Milne was a bad appointment).
I think the current, post-Referendum crisis is almost entirely of the PLP's making: when your opponents are in such disarray as the Tories are, you don't create a crisis for yourselves. The PLP have complained about not being an effective opposition: ISTM they've stopped themselves being that in these crucial days after the referendum by deciding to have their own leadership crisis.
All that said, I think he has to go now. Whether or not it's his fault, he's lost the support of the PLP and you cannot survive as leader without that. He wants to plough on because of his massive support within the membership: I think that's a huge mistake and will only increase the gulf between the PLP and the membership. I think Tom Watson got it exactly right in the video Barnabas62 linked to: the leader has to be supported by all sections of the party and Corbyn clearly isn't. He cannot lead like that. If nothing else, it's an open goal at every PMQs: no matter how sound his point is, all Cameron or his replacement has to do is point to the ranks of MPs behind him and make some cheap jibe about his lack of support. Which will get shown on the telly? It won't be Corbyn's point.
The huge question for Labour is: is there anyone who can unite all these different sections of the party? I'm not sure there is. Blair tried it by simply imposing his will, but that just kept a lid on all these divisions and maybe made them worse. I don't know if there's anyone who can unite the party; perhaps a split is the only way?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye Callan, have to agree, but there again you knew that. Blair was certainly Thatcher's beneficiary (recapitulating Wilson and Douglas-Home). She was his first guest in Downing Street.
UKIP are NOWT. A protest movement that 'won', that will win no seats, what for?
Is Gove Johnny Major to BoJo's Heseltine? I'd LOVE that.
In the mean time, my man will die a prophet hero's death.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I just started a new thread to discuss Conservative Party Leadership Elections. Looks like a separate but related issue.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think the plp have committed suicide, but there it is, it's done now. The next election looks like a goner.
I suppose it's part of the electoral cycle. I mean, that after a big leader, such as Blair and Thatcher, parties tend to go into conniptions for quite a long time. Was it 23 years before the Tories won again after 1992 (Major)?
It looks like a split, but I don't know how it can be managed.
I suppose if somebody like Eagle takes over, the left will drift away, or alternatively, run screeching for the hills. Now those Greens down the road are interesting people.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Some of Angela Eagle's constituents asking why they should follow her, when she has not conferred with them, and has proved inaccessible, and has plotted against the leader. Come on, you know it's comical.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
UKIP are NOWT. A protest movement that 'won', that will win no seats, what for?
They will claim that the settlement, such as it is, is a betrayal because it involves too much immigration and because the moon on a stick promised by Leave didn't materialise.
As a clergyman, part of my job involves visiting frail elderly people who often tell me that they had no idea how much they took their good health and independence for granted until they lost it. I suspect that we are all going to feel the same about living in a politically stable democracy in the not too distant future.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Hell's Bells!
Ruth Smeeth is Jewish. The Momentum activist who attacked her verbally at that event needs to be given their marching orders.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Stop Press, further to the exciting report that the Eagle has landed! Now, there has been a slight delay, and we would like to report that the Eagle is stranded! Web-cams are available now, to see how she takes off again.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
But most of the MPs were very unhappy about it because he's considered very left wing. (Though from a historical perspective he's fairly moderate.)
I'd like to come back to this because it's been bugging me for a few days. On the one hand, Mr Corbyn is the only hope of the socialist left and a standard-bearer in the fight against neo-liberalism - and on the other hand, he's not all that radical.
I'm afraid I think the answer is that although he is willing to (attempt to) sing The Red Flag and give enthusiastic support to peripheral left-wing causes such as Hezbollah and Irish Republicanism, he is not very good at articulating actual ideas, or at least transferring them from the backs of the envelopes on which he's written them. So what we have so far is:
People's Quantitative Easing: Irrelevant if the Bank is not engaged in a quantitative easing programme.
National Investment Bank: a means for the government to borow money to fund infrastructure projects (as every government has done in living memory) but in a way that's off balance-sheet - Mr Blair would be proud.
Opposing benefit cuts: probably a good thing (and supported by Tory backbenchers and Lib-Dem peers), but this is not in itself a blow against neoliberalism. The blow against neoliberalism would be to ask why benefits are necessary in the first place. (Mr Miliband once said that the flaw in Blairism was that it accepted most of the doctrines of Thatcherism but then tried to use the welfare state as a plaster to cover up the injustices that arise thereby.)
Making speeches against austerity: in the absence of specific costed alternatives, this only differs from soundbite politics in that at least soundbites are mercifully brief.
[ 30. June 2016, 16:56: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hell's Bells!
Ruth Smeeth is Jewish. The Momentum activist who attacked her verbally at that event needs to be given their marching orders.
Quite apart form the morally repugnant aspect of the story, this is a perfect example of why Corbyn has got to go. How incompetent to you have to be to get a report that says: "Basically, Labout has no significant problem with anti-Semitism but it wouldn't hurt everyone to be a bit more sensitive" and end up with a Jewish MP calling for your resignation after being abused by one of your supporters, and the Chief Rabbi issuing a sternly worded condemnation of your incautious comparison of Israel with Islamic State. The lazy cliche is to invoke The Thick Of It, at this juncture but really, compared to this lot Nicola Murray looks like Abraham Lincoln.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Why do people have to lie about Corbyn? He didn't compare Israel with Islamic State.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hell's Bells!
Ruth Smeeth is Jewish. The Momentum activist who attacked her verbally at that event needs to be given their marching orders.
Quite apart form the morally repugnant aspect of the story, this is a perfect example of why Corbyn has got to go. How incompetent to you have to be to get a report that says: "Basically, Labout has no significant problem with anti-Semitism but it wouldn't hurt everyone to be a bit more sensitive" and end up with a Jewish MP calling for your resignation after being abused by one of your supporters, and the Chief Rabbi issuing a sternly worded condemnation of your incautious comparison of Israel with Islamic State. The lazy cliche is to invoke The Thick Of It, at this juncture but really, compared to this lot Nicola Murray looks like Abraham Lincoln.
Here we go, the first casualty of war. This is all BULLSHIT.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
An unbelievable slur. He was saying the equivalent of that Muslims are no more responsible for IS than Anglicans are of Britain First.
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arse
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
If he can't make a simple point about anti-semitism without upsetting the Chief Rabbi, he's bloody incompetent. End of. For those of you who skipped history there is a reason that Jews tend to be a bit touchy about this sort of thing and it isn't because they are all admirers of Tony Blair.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If he can't make a simple point about anti-semitism without upsetting the Chief Rabbi, he's bloody incompetent. End of. For those of you who skipped history there is a reason that Jews tend to be a bit touchy about this sort of thing and it isn't because they are all admirers of Tony Blair.
But you lied. End of.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Steady q. Callan has a disposition with some facets that are more amusing than others.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If he can't make a simple point about anti-semitism without upsetting the Chief Rabbi, he's bloody incompetent. End of. For those of you who skipped history there is a reason that Jews tend to be a bit touchy about this sort of thing and it isn't because they are all admirers of Tony Blair.
But you lied. End of.
OK, this is the quote, via the Guardian. Originally posted by Jeremy Corbyn:
quote:
In prepared remarks, Corbyn said: “Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government than our Muslim friends are for those of various self-styled Islamic states or organisations.”
So, there you go. Prepared remarks. He sat down, wrote this down, shared it with his comms team. They presumably said, good stuff Jeremy, that will knock them dead. Now you can say, if you want, that this is obviously not anti-semitic. As one Gentile to another, you may be right. We don't blame Muslims for Al Qaeda, or IS, or Saudi Arabia or Iran any more than we blame Jews for the actions of Israel or the Likud Party. But, do you know, most Jews (and generally the majority of reasonable Gentiles) don't think that the actions of Israel, in most cases, and the actions of the Likud Party in a lot of cases are entirely comparable to the actions of Al Qaeda IS, Saudi Arabia or Iran.
Anyway, as I say, the Chief Rabbi who is Jewish and has fairly strong views on anti-semitism thought it could be better phrased. Broadly speaking, if you give a press conference on anti-Semitism and you aren't Nick Griffin, pissing off the Chief Rabbi is a bug, rather than a feature. Ruth Smeeth wasn't all that impressed either. Still, I expect they are neo-liberals or something like that.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're way off here Callan. Way off. Something else is going on here. And of course Israel can be compared with its power abusing neighbours.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
No, I'm not Martin.
Unless you can demonstrate a) that the treatment of Ruth Smeeth was morally acceptable.
And b) That Jeremy Corbyn's conduct demonstrated political acuity.
I think that neither is the case but I await your detailed apologetic with eager anticipation.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
So, there you go. Prepared remarks. He sat down, wrote this down, shared it with his comms team. They presumably said, good stuff Jeremy, that will knock them dead. Now you can say, if you want, that this is obviously not anti-semitic. As one Gentile to another, you may be right. We don't blame Muslims for Al Qaeda, or IS, or Saudi Arabia or Iran any more than we blame Jews for the actions of Israel or the Likud Party. But, do you know, most Jews (and generally the majority of reasonable Gentiles) don't think that the actions of Israel, in most cases, and the actions of the Likud Party in a lot of cases are entirely comparable to the actions of Al Qaeda IS, Saudi Arabia or Iran.
Nobody said they were. If you bothered to read the speech rather than the knee-jerk responses to it, you'll see that he was saying that nobody should be judged on-bloc. If you have a problem with Israel, don't take it out on Jews. If your stomach is turned by IS, don't try having a pop at the nearest Muslim.
Of course it is relevant because there is a tendency amongst some to suggest that every Jew is responsible or supportive of everything that Israel does. And of course there are some who say that IS makes every Muslim a terrorist.
quote:
Anyway, as I say, the Chief Rabbi who is Jewish and has fairly strong views on anti-semitism thought it could be better phrased. Broadly speaking, if you give a press conference on anti-Semitism and you aren't Nick Griffin, pissing off the Chief Rabbi is a bug, rather than a feature. Ruth Smeeth wasn't all that impressed either. Still, I expect they are neo-liberals or something like that.
I can only assume that the Chief Rabbi hasn't actually read the speech. Which is fair enough when nobody else has either.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Unless you can demonstrate a) that the treatment of Ruth Smeeth was morally acceptable.
It appears that an activist suggested that Ms Smeeth was somehow beholden to the right-wing press. Ms Smeeth said that this was an example of anti-semitism.
Explain to me how this is Corbyn's responsibility even if it is proved to be an anti-Semitic incident.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Mr Cheesy:
quote:
I can only assume that the Chief Rabbi hasn't actually read the speech. Which is fair enough when nobody else has either.
I think, call me dangerously radical, that it must be possible to give a speech about anti-semitism which does not lead to the Chief Rabbi of the UK getting a bit upset. If we could find such a person they might make a reasonably good Leader of the Opposition. Let's face it we have an annual Holocaust Memorial Day upon which plenty of Civic non-entities manage to suggest that anti-Semitism is a bad thing without annoying the Chief Rabbi. I'm somewhat boggled that Corbyn managed to fuck it up.
As I said, aside from the Ruth Smeeth business, which was pretty contemptible, this was the equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn being asked to stand up and say he was in favour of motherhood and mum's apple pie. I realise that we are a minority these days and must tread carefully, but broadly speaking among civilised people there is a consensus that Anti-Semitism is a Bad Thing. How the devil did he manage to fuck it up.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As I said, aside from the Ruth Smeeth business, which was pretty contemptible, this was the equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn being asked to stand up and say he was in favour of motherhood and mum's apple pie. I realise that we are a minority these days and must tread carefully, but broadly speaking among civilised people there is a consensus that Anti-Semitism is a Bad Thing. How the devil did he manage to fuck it up.
Yeah, funny how everything he is saying is being twisted and misquoted today, isn't it. I can't imagine why that could be.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Unless you can demonstrate a) that the treatment of Ruth Smeeth was morally acceptable.
It appears that an activist suggested that Ms Smeeth was somehow beholden to the right-wing press. Ms Smeeth said that this was an example of anti-semitism.
Explain to me how this is Corbyn's responsibility even if it is proved to be an anti-Semitic incident.
Well it was a Momentum activist at a Press Conference organised by Corbyn. Going out on a limb here but if I was to give a Press Conference on the evils of anti-semitism and one of my congregation had a go at a Jew in the vicinity, I'd probably feel that I'd let the side down if I didn't tell them to sit down and shut the fuck up.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Nobody said they were. If you bothered to read the speech rather than the knee-jerk responses to it, you'll see that he was saying that nobody should be judged on-bloc. If you have a problem with Israel, don't take it out on Jews. If your stomach is turned by IS, don't try having a pop at the nearest Muslim.
The problem with this comparison is that it's rather like invoking the Third Reich as a comparison in a discussion. Just don't do it, even if the trains did run on time.
Corbyn's statement is technically accurate, but by placing Israel and Islamic State in the same role in his sentence, he invites a comparison between the two.
[ 30. June 2016, 21:06: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Well it was a Momentum activist at a Press Conference organised by Corbyn. Going out on a limb here but if I was to give a Press Conference on the evils of anti-semitism and one of my congregation had a go at a Jew in the vicinity, I'd probably feel that I'd let the side down if I didn't tell them to sit down and shut the fuck up.
Sorry, a critic of Corbyn was accused by a Momentum activist of being beholden to the right-wing press. Now, that might not be correct, but there is clearly a view that Labour parliamentarians and the press are out to destroy Corbyn.
How that morphs into an "anti-Semitic" slur is beyond my understanding.
Personally I believe everyone should be extremely polite with each other in the Labour party and stop calling each other names.
But you have to use a large level of imagination to see this particular incident as anti-Semitic rather than anti-Blairite.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
He's not a momentum activist.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The problem with this comparison is that it's rather like invoking the Third Reich as a comparison in a discussion. Just don't do it, even if the trains did run on time.
It wasn't like that. Read the damn speech.
quote:
Corbyn's statement is technically accurate, but by placing Israel and Islamic State in the same role in his sentence, he invites a comparison between the two.
The comparison is there because there are (a) anti-Semitic incidents where Jews are held to be accountable for Israel and (b) where Muslims are held to be accountable for IS. In the UK in 2016.
FFS. Can we get on with monitoring the true fascists rather than turning over the stones looking for things to be offended by?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
He's not a momentum activist.
Right, OK he has denied being a Momentum activist. He was an activist.
I don't see that this makes any difference at all - what has it got to do personally with Corbyn? Nothing.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As I said, aside from the Ruth Smeeth business, which was pretty contemptible, this was the equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn being asked to stand up and say he was in favour of motherhood and mum's apple pie. I realise that we are a minority these days and must tread carefully, but broadly speaking among civilised people there is a consensus that Anti-Semitism is a Bad Thing. How the devil did he manage to fuck it up.
Yeah, funny how everything he is saying is being twisted and misquoted today, isn't it. I can't imagine why that could be.
Really, are you seriously saying that it is impossible for someone to get up and say that Anti-Semitism is a bad thing without being misquoted?
I mean, I'd have probably said something like this: "The Labour Party is implacably opposed to all forms of racism. Anti-Semitism is one of the oldest forms of racial hatred and has no part in our party. Any form of Anti-Semitic hatred or prejudice is unacceptable and has no part in the life of our great movement. I am very grateful to Shami Chakrabati for her report which demonstrates that Anti-semitism is not rife in our party. But she warns us that we cannot be complacent. There are those who, often for good and honourable reasons are critical of the policies of the State of Israel. I am one of them. But we must say that such criticism must be kept within honourable bounds. Shami has defined those bounds and I and all those who hold high office in our party will ensure that we remain within them. Let no-one who is Jewish or who sympathises with the Jewish national movement feel unwelcome on our party. Let us work towards that future when people of all creeds, colours and nationalities recognise one another on the basis of our common humanity. Thank you all very much"
I mean, candidly, it's boilerplate and I ain't expecting a nobel prize but if I can do better aa a form of displacement activity you would expect the Leader of the Opposition to do better as a matter of course.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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