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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
The problem we have is that the rightward shuffle has been completely normalised. This is one of the many fundamental betrayals perpetrated by Blair and his acolytes. It has become extremist to want to be anywhere significantly to the left of Thatcher, which a desperate state of affairs.
This is why Corbyn must not be replaced by a Blairite (i.e. a pink-washed Thatcherite) now. They are the freaks, not Corbyn. He is saying very little, ironically, that was not in the Tory manifestos of the 1950s and early 1960s. Perspective must be restored before the daggers are unsheathed. We cannot continue in this constant rightward shuffle forever: there is an imminent risk of politics becoming meaningless otherwise.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Leafleting for momentum today had some one come up, seig heil and yell Hitler was right, and call us communist bastards.
I feel the referendum has rather lowered the tone of political debate.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Leafleting for momentum today had some one come up, seig heil and yell Hitler was right, and call us communist bastards.
I feel the referendum has rather lowered the tone of political debate.
Litotes aside, that sounds a very scary experience. And, on a national scale, it is terrifying to contemplate the turbulence and murk the vote has released.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think it would have been intimidating if I'd been alone, but there was a small group of us there and it was a busy street. In retreospect, what shocks me is how unsurprised we were.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
On a lighter note, those with an interest in the Labour party's issues will probably enjoy Radio 4's Dead Ringers episode this week (you'll need access to BBC iPlayer).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07hj8bn#play
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
The PLP have gone too far to back down now. The membership are digging their heels in. This ends in one of two ways: JC resigns or a very, very messy and nasty run up to the next election.
The public simply won't vote in a Labour party so obviously at war. Blame the PLP if you like, but that's the reality of the situation.
If we want to help the most vulnerable in society, having a centre left government that tries to shield them from the worst effects of recession/austerity/Brexit is much, much better than having a fully left wing opposition to a Tory government that just doesn't care.
Compromise is how to get good things done in a world where people don't see things the same way.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
Sarah G you are so right ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
If we want to help the most vulnerable in society, having a centre left government that tries to shield them from the worst effects of recession/austerity/Brexit is much, much better than having a fully left wing opposition to a Tory government that just doesn't care.
Compromise is how to get good things done in a world where people don't see things the same way.
Up to a point - but part of the reason the UK voted Leave was because people were sick of compromises, and didn't see any real alternative.
Being Tory but only slightly less so, only works to a degree.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
If we want to help the most vulnerable in society, having a centre left government that tries to shield them from the worst effects of recession/austerity/Brexit is much, much better than having a fully left wing opposition to a Tory government that just doesn't care.
Compromise is how to get good things done in a world where people don't see things the same way.
Up to a point - but part of the reason the UK voted Leave was because people were sick of compromises, and didn't see any real alternative.
Being Tory but only slightly less so, only works to a degree.
It only works until the mogadon tablet with "there is no alternative" is spat out. That's the only level on which the leave vote makes any sense at all. The serious issue for all sides now is not to cause infinite pain to the newly conscious patient. Hypodermics full of anaesthetic, as proffered by the PLP, is not, in my opinion, the way to achieve this.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The problem is that the choice isn't left or centre-left, it's left or centre-right. That's how far the Blairites (don't oppose welfare cuts, remember) are from what Labour stands for. Austerity isn't a natural force to be defended or mitigated against, it's a political choice whether it's done by a tory or a Blairite. Anyone in a position of political power who tells you that austerity is necessary is flat out lying - it's actually harmful to the economy and the reason growth rates have been so sluggish since 2010. Even Brown/Darling realised stimulus was necessary to get the economy out of crisis mode. It's a real shame that under Miliband Labour's economic policy moved so far to the right to cosy up to Osborne's nonsense, which he himself has now had to abandon. It's allowed the right to have the argument all its own way, when in reality their approach is damaging to the economy and an excuse to punish the poor.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
The PLP have gone too far to back down now. The membership are digging their heels in. This ends in one of two ways: JC resigns or a very, very messy and nasty run up to the next election.
The public simply won't vote in a Labour party so obviously at war. Blame the PLP if you like, but that's the reality of the situation.
Another way to put that is that the reality of the situation is that that is what the party rules require. Quite why is open to some doubt. I can understand that taking a ballot of the entire party is a good method of selecting the leader of the party. What I cannot understand is why it is thought to be a good method of choosing the leader of the section comprising Labour MPs. The present problem was bound to occur sooner rather than later.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If the situation had been tackled differently, the Labour Party could have gone for an amendment of the rules similar to that of the lib dems, where you have a party president and a leader of the parliamentary party.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Much more sensible.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's a real shame that under Miliband Labour's economic policy moved so far to the right to cosy up to Osborne's nonsense, which he himself has now had to abandon. It's allowed the right to have the argument all its own way, when in reality their approach is damaging to the economy and an excuse to punish the poor.
The thing is, this isn't really true. The Labour manifesto 2015 was not as radical as I think it should have been but it was far more Keynesian that it was made out to be.
In part that was Labour's spin as well. Rightly or wrongly, Labour didn't believe they could win without appeasing the perception that the deficit needed fixing. Of course a big part of it as well was that Labour was portrayed as causing the financial crisis and thus everyone 'knew' what needed to be done. This narrative was overwhelming.
Labour was thus too left for some and not nearly left enough for others. A perfect political trap. (Partly but now wholly of their own making).
I do not know what the solution to that is. It seems to me that Corbyn for all his clear authenticity and insight does not cut through to most of the electorate. (See his spot on Channel 4's The Last Leg a couple of weeks ago and contrast that with how he's reported).
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I could see a president + plp leader being the long term structural change that comes out of this. But it won't happen before this impasse is resolved. I also think there is no way Corbyn will go pre-Chilcot.
[ 03. July 2016, 08:21: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
You'd think that Labour could profitably spend this time attacking Tory chaos and infighting, but I guess some genius decided that this was the perfect time to attack the leader, thus diverting attention from the Tory mess. You've got to hand it to Labour, never knowingly canny.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You'd think that Labour could profitably spend this time attacking Tory chaos and infighting, but I guess some genius decided that this was the perfect time to attack the leader, thus diverting attention from the Tory mess. You've got to hand it to Labour, never knowingly canny.
You mean the party led by the guy who couldn't mention IDS's resignation? I'm sure the Tories were quivering in their boots.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You'd think that Labour could profitably spend this time attacking Tory chaos and infighting, but I guess some genius decided that this was the perfect time to attack the leader, thus diverting attention from the Tory mess. You've got to hand it to Labour, never knowingly canny.
You mean the party led by the guy who couldn't mention IDS's resignation? I'm sure the Tories were quivering in their boots.
No, I'm talking about the plp, who with perfect timing, chose to attack the Labour leader, just as the Tories had gone into meltdown. As I said, that's genius.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I also think there is no way Corbyn will go pre-Chilcot.
What is your instinct about what might happen after?
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Compromise is how to get good things done in a world where people don't see things the same way.
Up to a point - but part of the reason the UK voted Leave was because people were sick of compromises, and didn't see any real alternative.
Being Tory but only slightly less so, only works to a degree.
You think “We don't like compromises” was a main reason for people voting leave?
Also, whoever follows Corbyn will not be “Tory but only slightly less so”. With the composition of the current membership the next leader will be well on the left, but with better leadership skills and more political savvy.
The country desperately needs a credible opposition that's going to get us out of this mess, not one putting all its energy into a civil war. The only realistic way it can get one from where we are now is for JC to do what he now has to do.
We need Labour in a fit shape to challenge the Tories when they start on the most vulnerable.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Who is well on the left? Angela 'Bomber' Eagle?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
You think “We don't like compromises” was a main reason for people voting leave?
No (and let's not forget that what we are actually talking about is people WHO WERENT ACTUALLY LABOUR VOTERS, but did live in 'Labour heartlands' voting leave). What I mean is that in the long term Blair's strategy was bound to lead to disillusionment - as he had no real policies to revive the post-industrial areas that have little to no functioning economy, he was essentially riding out a boom whilst implementing a limited amount of re-distribution from the South East to the rest of the country. During his tenure, people tended to switch off from politics and didn't vote - his victories were built on the backs of an ever decreasing share of the electorate.
quote:
Also, whoever follows Corbyn will not be “Tory but only slightly less so”. With the composition of the current membership the next leader will be well on the left, but with better leadership skills and more political savvy.
The same MPs currently kicking off about Corbyn would kick off over any left wing candidate (and Angela Eagle is hardly that) - and they were kicking off long before they even knew how Corbyn might function, purely on the basis of his politics.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I also think there is no way Corbyn will go pre-Chilcot.
What is your instinct about what might happen after?
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Compromise is how to get good things done in a world where people don't see things the same way.
Up to a point - but part of the reason the UK voted Leave was because people were sick of compromises, and didn't see any real alternative.
Being Tory but only slightly less so, only works to a degree.
You think “We don't like compromises” was a main reason for people voting leave?
Also, whoever follows Corbyn will not be “Tory but only slightly less so”. With the composition of the current membership the next leader will be well on the left, but with better leadership skills and more political savvy.
The country desperately needs a credible opposition that's going to get us out of this mess, not one putting all its energy into a civil war. The only realistic way it can get one from where we are now is for JC to do what he now has to do.
We need Labour in a fit shape to challenge the Tories when they start on the most vulnerable.
The PLP won't nominate another left wing candidate if Corbyn goes. If they were willing to do that then a negotiated solution might be possible. The fact of the matter is that the PLP don't want a left wing leader, full stop.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Chris Stiles:
quote:
No (and let's not forget that what we are actually talking about is people WHO WERENT ACTUALLY LABOUR VOTERS, but did live in 'Labour heartlands' voting leave). What I mean is that in the long term Blair's strategy was bound to lead to disillusionment - as he had no real policies to revive the post-industrial areas that have little to no functioning economy, he was essentially riding out a boom whilst implementing a limited amount of re-distribution from the South East to the rest of the country. During his tenure, people tended to switch off from politics and didn't vote - his victories were built on the backs of an ever decreasing share of the electorate.
1/ Some of them were.
2/ What you appear to forget is that Mrs Thatcher was elected in 1979 and Mr Blair was elected in 1997. Which means that whilst people did get better off in the Blair era he had a lot of catching up to do. I think it could be legitimately argued that he was to beholden to Middle England but it might be worth asking what happened in Labour politics between 1979 and 1997 to make Labour politicians a bit overly concerned about Middle England and, whether the current regime is actually addressing that.
3/ If you win an election with an eye-wateringly large majority and the sort of approval ratings that don't usually happen outside North Korea the only way is down. Governments generally run out of road and then have to reinvent themselves. Personally, I think a resurrection of the Blair bill of goods c1997 is for the birds but the bit about winning over Tory waverers is, really, quite important. I wasn't wildly enthusiastic about the Blair bill of goods at the time but there was a salient and important reason that he was elected as New Labour and governed as New Labour.
Government in the UK is a bit like the Sibylline books. if you remember the story one of the Sybils offered King Tarquin of Rome the books of prophecy. King Tarquin said no, so she set light to one of the books and offered the rest at the same price at which point his nerve went. Every time the other lot win an election your lot have to come back on their terms. For example, Liz Kendall got a lot of flack for suggesting that she could live with free schools but, of course, by 2020 a Labour opposition would have to win over marginal seats where the local free school was popular with parents who would resist its abolition. After 18 years of Tory rule, you would expect someone like Tony Blair to win for Labour. The longer to Tories are in power, the more right wing the next Labour government because their reforms will be entrenched. So spending five years testing to destruction the thesis that General Elections can be won by a man who has never run anything more demanding than an allotment and whose politics make the late Michael Foot look like Michael Heseltine is, really, an error of mind boggling proportions. Two politicians have markedly thrust the political consensus in away from their political enemies. Clement Attlee who was assisted by a World War and Mrs Thatcher who was assisted by an unelectable opposition and took three terms. Both of them were immensely able. It would be incautious for the Labour Party to assume that any of the conditions of their achievements are currently present.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just saw John McDonnell on BBC1 practically begging ex-Shadow Ministers to go back to their old jobs. I couldn't quite believe it, it seems like a monumental mistake or possibly admission of defeat.
I have to assume that he has more political nous than me, but to say I was surprised would be an understatement.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It's actually the sensible course. Corbyn is the one interested in unity here, and willing to work with people who disagree with him. It's the chickencoup crowd who are having a strop and trying to take their ball home with them (including the former shadow treasury minister who deleted files from a shared hard drive about Labour's plans for influencing the finance bill when he resigned; real team player that).
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I really don't think anything will happen before Chilcot is published. After that, many things can happen, but I wouldn't bet on any one of them.
I suppose there may be some linkage between the "no confidence" vote and the forthcoming public verdict on Tony Blair and one or two of his minister. Some parts of the press are saying as much. I'm not convinced. Jeremy has been causing increasing dissatisfaction in the PLP for some time now.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There are certainly many stories flying around that Chilcott is the key. According to these, Corbyn has waited so that he can condemn Blair as a war criminal, and also possibly apologize on behalf of the Labour Party, for Iraq. Correspondingly, the Blairites have been trying to stop this.
I have no idea if there is any truth in these stories, but I guess we will find out quite soon.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I really hope the PLP aren't so desperate that they'll sabotage the party just to avoid having to own their past mistakes.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I really don't think anything will happen before Chilcot is published. After that, many things can happen, but I wouldn't bet on any one of them.
I suppose there may be some linkage between the "no confidence" vote and the forthcoming public verdict on Tony Blair and one or two of his minister. Some parts of the press are saying as much. I'm not convinced. Jeremy has been causing increasing dissatisfaction in the PLP for some time now.
I'm just going to put this here now.
I think that when the Chilcott report comes out it will be nothing like as damaging in its condemnation of Tony Blair as people assume and I predict that the word "whitewash" will be used with some frequency when the contents are known.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn issues a formal apology on behalf of the Labour Party at the dispatch box at PMQs and, in his next breath, indicates that he is stepping down. Personally, I think he shouldn't have stood, shouldn't have been nominated, shouldn't have been elected and has been an unmitigated disaster for the country and the Labour Party but on a personal level, I imagine the last week has been utter hell for him.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Personally, I think a resurrection of the Blair bill of goods c1997 is for the birds
Well, I tend to agree with that - but that is what other participants in the thread appear to be calling for, additionally it seems to me what a lot of the PLP yearn for (without having a particular person in mind to carry out such a task).
In addition, I'm not really envisaging or calling for a return to 70s style Labourism, nor do I carry any particular torch for Corbyn. I am skeptical about the potential radical change especially given the influence of the media.
I do not think marginal policies like that of free schools either matter that much or a particularly big issue in terms of what needs to be dealt with (you'd probably get equal and opposite numbers living in marginals where free schools have failed). At the same time, I think it is possible to overestimate some of the change wrought in society as a whole (there is fairly substantial support for limited measures like renationalising the rail service even among the members of parties like UKIP whose leaders are libertarian)
quote:
It would be incautious for the Labour Party to assume that any of the conditions of their achievements are currently present.
My issue with people like Kendall is that they seem to assume that in the absence of any of those conditions, all that is necessary is to keep triangulating and eventually they'll get into power.
You don't implement your ideas by jettisoning them in order to get into power - additionally if you are going to compete on the basis of being tough, those who are already minded to vote for a right wing option will not be convinced by your protestations that you promise to crucify 10 immigrants every day, while you put off your core vote.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Callan
I'm giving your spidey sense a probable two out of three! Not sure if Corbyn will stand down on the same day.
And, yes, the last week must have been absolute hell for him.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I suppose there may be some linkage between the "no confidence" vote and the forthcoming public verdict on Tony Blair and one or two of his minister. Some parts of the press are saying as much. I'm not convinced. Jeremy has been causing increasing dissatisfaction in the PLP for some time now.
I think the PLP had assumed that the vote would be narrowly remain, and had planned the resignations and the like accordingly; in the event the vote didn't go the way it did, but they went ahead with bits of their plan anyway. With the problem that the leadership was suddenly a much more poisoned chalice than before.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I suppose there may be some linkage between the "no confidence" vote and the forthcoming public verdict on Tony Blair and one or two of his minister. Some parts of the press are saying as much. I'm not convinced. Jeremy has been causing increasing dissatisfaction in the PLP for some time now.
I think the PLP had assumed that the vote would be narrowly remain, and had planned the resignations and the like accordingly; in the event the vote didn't go the way it did, but they went ahead with bits of their plan anyway. With the problem that the leadership was suddenly a much more poisoned chalice than before.
I think the first part of this is undoubtedly correct, but the calculation was that they thought that he ought to be given a 'fair' chance, or more accurately, at least they ought to give the impression they were giving him a 'fair' chance before activating Operation Corbyncide. With Remain losing the prospect of a snap election suddenly loomed before them and the need for a coup concentrated minds. The other effect of the Leave vote was the rage and grief it generated. A Europhile Leader of the Opposition who had campaigned like her life depended on it would have probably been in trouble at this juncture. Given Mr Corbyn's lifelong hostility to Europe and the 'Europe, Meh, s'pose"nature of his pronouncements, such as they were, and the general lack of a sense of urgency in his campaigning, it was always likely that he was going to get it in the neck from Remainers if things went horribly Pete Tong.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I suppose there may be some linkage between the "no confidence" vote and the forthcoming public verdict on Tony Blair and one or two of his minister. Some parts of the press are saying as much. I'm not convinced. Jeremy has been causing increasing dissatisfaction in the PLP for some time now.
I think the PLP had assumed that the vote would be narrowly remain, and had planned the resignations and the like accordingly; in the event the vote didn't go the way it did, but they went ahead with bits of their plan anyway. With the problem that the leadership was suddenly a much more poisoned chalice than before.
Another problem being that the Tories went into meltdown, which you'd think might give Labour opportunities to attack. I suppose that couldn't be allowed to interrupt the poorly planned coup of the plp.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I really don't think anything will happen before Chilcot is published. After that, many things can happen, but I wouldn't bet on any one of them.
I suppose there may be some linkage between the "no confidence" vote and the forthcoming public verdict on Tony Blair and one or two of his minister. Some parts of the press are saying as much. I'm not convinced. Jeremy has been causing increasing dissatisfaction in the PLP for some time now.
I'm just going to put this here now.
I think that when the Chilcott report comes out it will be nothing like as damaging in its condemnation of Tony Blair as people assume and I predict that the word "whitewash" will be used with some frequency when the contents are known.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn issues a formal apology on behalf of the Labour Party at the dispatch box at PMQs and, in his next breath, indicates that he is stepping down. Personally, I think he shouldn't have stood, shouldn't have been nominated, shouldn't have been elected and has been an unmitigated disaster for the country and the Labour Party but on a personal level, I imagine the last week has been utter hell for him.
Right on Chilcott of course and no, Corbyn stepping down isn't going to happen in that context, he should have been nominated, should have been elected, has been a resounding success for the country and the Labour Party and I bet he's loved it. 1/6
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I really don't think anything will happen before Chilcot is published. After that, many things can happen, but I wouldn't bet on any one of them.
I suppose there may be some linkage between the "no confidence" vote and the forthcoming public verdict on Tony Blair and one or two of his minister. Some parts of the press are saying as much. I'm not convinced. Jeremy has been causing increasing dissatisfaction in the PLP for some time now.
I'm just going to put this here now.
I think that when the Chilcott report comes out it will be nothing like as damaging in its condemnation of Tony Blair as people assume and I predict that the word "whitewash" will be used with some frequency when the contents are known.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn issues a formal apology on behalf of the Labour Party at the dispatch box at PMQs and, in his next breath, indicates that he is stepping down. Personally, I think he shouldn't have stood, shouldn't have been nominated, shouldn't have been elected and has been an unmitigated disaster for the country and the Labour Party but on a personal level, I imagine the last week has been utter hell for him.
Right on Chilcott of course and no, Corbyn stepping down isn't going to happen in that context, he should have been nominated, should have been elected, has been a resounding success for the country and the Labour Party and I bet he's loved it. 1/6
Dear Admins,
Can we please have a "Dennis Mello from the Wire" emoji. It would save us the trouble, on occasion, of having to type: "I'll have what he's smoking".
Many thanks,
A Grateful Shipmate.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's all about what YOU bring to the party Callan.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The PLP won't nominate another left wing candidate if Corbyn goes. If they were willing to do that then a negotiated solution might be possible. The fact of the matter is that the PLP don't want a left wing leader, full stop.
The problem with this analysis is that you assume the 172 are all Blairites. They're not.
Some are, and were out to get JC from the start. A lot of others weren't happy, but were willing to give it a go. Still others were close to JC on the political belief spectrum, but are very unhappy with his lack of political skills, and now they've also turned. That's his problem.
It's entirely possible to like his policies, and still see he's just not a very good politician.
After he goes, the next leader will be the most left wing of the candidates- this is guaranteed by the membership. After everything that's happened, the PLP will just have to get on with it this time.
If JC stays we have a broken party handing the next election to the Tories. Nine years of foreign aid cuts, nine years of welfare budget cuts, cuts in schools, NHS, nine years of privatisation...
Given the unpredictability of the Tory membership, that could even be 9 years of Gove.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
It's 2003 all over again, but with Labour not the Tories. As things stand Labour will lose whatever happens but, with a leader who is not quite as good as Ed Miliband but better than Corbyn they might just hang on as the official opposition. As things stand, if the Leavers fuck off to UKIP, then Labour might be reduced to the position currently held by the SNP, as the third largest party.
As I type the latest ICM poll flickers into vision. 37% for the Tories 30% for Labour. So perhaps I am doom-mongering. Let us hope so. Let's hope that a divided Tory Party who have pretty much forfeited their claim to be a responsible party of government have a 7% lead over the opposition in the mid-term of a parliament. Good work, Jeremy! Good work, Corbynites! Onwards and upwards to being a bit more crap than Michael Howard! Are you thinking what we're thinking?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Sorry, you're blaming Corbyn because poll numbers are down after the Blairites started a fucking civil war?! Do you blame Corbyn when it rains, too?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Sorry, you're blaming Corbyn because poll numbers are down after the Blairites started a fucking civil war?! Do you blame Corbyn when it rains, too?
I think Sarah G's post above covered off all of those points.
Personally, I don't blame Corbyn when it rains but I do blame him for being the person who decided the Labour Party was ideologically wrong to possess an umbrella and only needed to believe strongly enough in Hawaiian shirts for the sun to shine.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Sorry, you're blaming Corbyn because poll numbers are down after the Blairites started a fucking civil war?! Do you blame Corbyn when it rains, too?
Well, you're off base here. You have to grasp the basic Blairite position: if something bad happens, this is Corbyn's fault, as he is the leader. If something good happens, this is in spite of him. If you apply this rule, you won't go far wrong. Glad to help.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, you're off base here. You have to grasp the basic Blairite position: if something bad happens, this is Corbyn's fault, as he is the leader. If something good happens, this is in spite of him. If you apply this rule, you won't go far wrong. Glad to help.
If the earth were ever threatened by alien invasion, some Labour MPs would write really cutting resignation letters.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Sorry, you're blaming Corbyn because poll numbers are down after the Blairites started a fucking civil war?! Do you blame Corbyn when it rains, too?
Well, you're off base here. You have to grasp the basic Blairite position: if something bad happens, this is Corbyn's fault, as he is the leader. If something good happens, this is in spite of him. If you apply this rule, you won't go far wrong. Glad to help.
I'm not a Blairite and if you think that the Parliamentary Labour Party consists of 172 Blairites and 40 True Believers then I have this really cool bridge, going dead cheap.
I presume the correct position on these matters then is that none of the Labour Party's problems are the fault of Mr Corbyn and all can be laid at the feet of the Blairites and the right-wing media. Oh, and Portland Communications. Let us not forget Portland Communications.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Sorry, you're blaming Corbyn because poll numbers are down after the Blairites started a fucking civil war?! Do you blame Corbyn when it rains, too?
Well, you're off base here. You have to grasp the basic Blairite position: if something bad happens, this is Corbyn's fault, as he is the leader. If something good happens, this is in spite of him. If you apply this rule, you won't go far wrong. Glad to help.
I'm not a Blairite and if you think that the Parliamentary Labour Party consists of 172 Blairites and 40 True Believers then I have this really cool bridge, going dead cheap.
I presume the correct position on these matters then is that none of the Labour Party's problems are the fault of Mr Corbyn and all can be laid at the feet of the Blairites and the right-wing media. Oh, and Portland Communications. Let us not forget Portland Communications.
I think that that would be another false dichotomy, wouldn't it? I accept that these are fun, but maybe there is another way forward.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Whether or no the current travails of the Labour Party can be laid at the door of Mr Corbyn is only of interest to those who think he gives a damn about the party as a whole rather than just the particular wing where he seems to find most comfort.
During the period of labour government 1997 to 2010 Mr Corbyn rebelled against the party whip 438 times, holding the record as the most rebellious MP in Parliament; he lost that record between 2010 and 2015 to John McDonnell (JC was second).
It doesn't seem to have occurred to Mr Corbyn that disloyalty can be infectious (and cut both ways): having been serially against party unity, it seems a tad hypocritical for him and his supporters to now be crying foul at those with whom he disagrees.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn issues a formal apology on behalf of the Labour Party at the dispatch box at PMQs and, in his next breath, indicates that he is stepping down.
Anyone who thinks Corbyn is going to resign has completely failed to understand him. Corbyn has been a Labour MP for over 30 years, dating back to the days in opposition to Thatcher. He is OLD Labour. He holds the old-fashioned view that having a public office means he is a public servant. He has been elected Labour Leader by his party. Therefore he believes he has a DUTY to serve in that role.
He will accept a challenge to his leadership which follows the constitution of the party, but he will only resign if he becomes personally unable to do the job, for example due to illness. The party membership has elected him to lead the party. Therefore he will lead the party to the best of his ability until either another leader is elected or he drops down dead.
This is where Corbyn differs completely from Cameron, who led his country and his party into a mess and then threw in the towel (conduct which would have got him court-martialled if he were an army officer).
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
He has been elected Labour Leader by his party. Therefore he believes he has a DUTY to serve in that role.
He will accept a challenge to his leadership which follows the constitution of the party, but he will only resign if he becomes personally unable to do the job, for example due to illness. The party membership has elected him to lead the party. Therefore he will lead the party to the best of his ability until either another leader is elected or he drops down dead.
I buy that line of argument but only if he's never called on any other Labour leader to resign (for whom the same reasoning would presumably have held good). Has he?
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
He has been elected Labour Leader by his party. Therefore he believes he has a DUTY to serve in that role.
He will accept a challenge to his leadership which follows the constitution of the party, but he will only resign if he becomes personally unable to do the job, for example due to illness. The party membership has elected him to lead the party. Therefore he will lead the party to the best of his ability until either another leader is elected or he drops down dead.
I buy that line of argument but only if he's never called on any other Labour leader to resign (for whom the same reasoning would presumably have held good). Has he?
Not sure the same reasoning would hold, because Corbyn's thinking if correctly described above would allow for him to be challenged and defeated.
However, Corbyn does have form for challenging leaders who are popular with the rest of the party but don't suit him. See for example his support of Tony Benn's almost entirely pointless challenge on Kinnock's leadership in 1988.
I say pointless, but it did achieve something - namely Labour having to completely turn inwards and fight each other for about six months of that year.
Needless to say, the challenge was unsuccessful, but it is an example of Jeremy being perfectly happy in the past to cock things up for everyone else, even when they've got a massive mandate (IIRC, Kinnock went *into* the leadership battle against Benn with internal Labour membership approval of over 80%....).
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Whether or no the current travails of the Labour Party can be laid at the door of Mr Corbyn is only of interest to those who think he gives a damn about the party as a whole rather than just the particular wing where he seems to find most comfort.
During the period of labour government 1997 to 2010 Mr Corbyn rebelled against the party whip 438 times, holding the record as the most rebellious MP in Parliament; he lost that record between 2010 and 2015 to John McDonnell (JC was second).
It doesn't seem to have occurred to Mr Corbyn that disloyalty can be infectious (and cut both ways): having been serially against party unity, it seems a tad hypocritical for him and his supporters to now be crying foul at those with whom he disagrees.
You're talking about a period when the Labour party abandoned its principles. Corbyn and McDonnell were among the few who stuck with them. Look at the topics of those rebellions and tell me which they were wrong about: the invasion of Iraq? Top-up fees (breaking a manifesto pledge I might add)? Academies? Foundation hospitals?
Besides, there is a massive difference between exercising one's conscience on a particular vote (as Corbyn has gladly tolerated e.g. on Syria) and secretly briefing the press to undermine the party leader and, in the case of one resigning shadow minister, deliberately sabotaging the party's strategy for a bill going through parliament by deleting work stored on a shared drive.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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