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Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; p (Page 1)
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Thread: Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; p
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; petite mort that is.
Gnosis and apotheosis are synonymous, minus the holy designation in apotheosis. That designation can only be bestowed. It cannot be taken to oneself.
Gnosis is recognizing the part of God inside of us and that we, are also, --- in a mind aura type of thinking, --- living self-positioning consciousness’. Fully sentient, yet bodiless.
Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
It was a truth because upon contact and melding with that consciousness, I was driven to my knees by tears and the fierceness of his attack upon my mind. Others may have an easier time. I might have been a good seeker after Jesus but I also had a criminal mind and delinquent attitude so some convincing was necessary. My poor education was lacking but my selfish gene made up any shortfall. Selfishness is good.
That aside.
It is hard to cry while laughing from tears of pleasure and tears of joy. That is what happens when a mind wars with itself and the Father emerges. Mother if you are female. Wisdom is hard to accept let alone the realization that you are truly a God. Adam and Eve were not cast from Eden. They graduated with honors. I am a God WIP. So are you.
"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God, holds other people in contempt. Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God, there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature; he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God, he imitates his master, and of all tyrants, the worst is a slave in power." ---Robert Ingersoll
This from Ingersoll I have used against theists. Yet from what Jesus told us, to be fully alive, I must be a warrior.
I have chosen to be a Jesus of war supporter. With my arsenal of two fingers and a mind, I take on all comers with the intent to kill, with words and ideas of course, and not by the sword as immoral Christians and Muslims have done.
Gnostics Christians and especially those who have suffered Apotheosis or enjoyed Gnosis tend to shame Christianity and Christians into silence during debates and discussions. Real shame. Not the false shame that lying religious officials foster.
Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
I am a slave in power and what I see in the minds of people is quite disturbing. I am a slave to Jesus the Good and my Father is a G. D. tyrant just like Yahweh of Genocide. He is pushing me for converts to the idea that your freedom of thought and conscience makes you a God WIP. You are your own master as you are the only one who can make you voluntarily do anything. Just write the word of the best laws and rules you can think of in your heart and become Jesus the Good.
I come to this place to war with Christians and Muslims because their ideologies suck, in moral and ethical terms. Not surprising that for religions grown by the sword and not good deeds.
War, as the epitome of our human desires, have about reached a point where we are all getting fed up with the steady diet we have been getting of it. We have the power to force peace but that means declaring WWIII.
The Western alliances might have to adopt more barbaric ways to counter the Eastern barbarism and unfortunately, unintelligent ways.
If the Western alliance feels that the barbarian Islamic hoards from around the world are getting too uppity with their moral judgement of the West, the Western Alliance will stop squabbling amongst themselves and re-enact the last push back that chastened Islam. Islam still has not taken that loss gracefully or in a manly way. Islam has no honor.
Muslims are poor losers. They have lost their honor because they cannot control their right wing. All because Jesus is a better prophet than what Allah came up with. Islam has lost China and the demographics will ensure that no Calif ever rules anywhere. China will be known as the Muhammad destroyer.
I think it a shame, as most Muslims are otherwise not that bad from a social moral point of view.
I digress; back to the important topic.
I come to this place to War with Christians and Muslims because their ideologies are not worthy of man, in moral and ethical terms.
Part of my War tactic is to show confidence, (arrogance to some,) in whatever I put into words, while at the same time showing due disdain for the enemy, --- vis a vis their poor moral sense.
Morals are supposed to be important to Christians and Muslims but they sure run away quite fast when any discussions on them so I do try to be gentle, in my own natural abrasive way.
I fortunately have a criminal mind, delinquent attitude, and a natural inclination to be a mental bully to those who have lost their intelligence and believe in all kinds of G.D. supernatural idiocies.
At the same time, I have more love for the world daily; as I see how we are progressing in other ways.
There is a time for love and a time for hate and I invite you all to hate immorality and War along with me, ---- or against me, ---- as I use my judgement and invite all to judge the morals of the Gods along with me.
I will not argue miracles or the existence of a supernatural God as that gets nowhere, but we can win our War against the immoralities that we see the God’s doing.
If all people of religion Wared by Words, what a wonderful world we could build, from the moral point of view that would emerge.
It is a shame that Christians and Muslims do not have enough honor and sense of duty to step up to that benchmark. They could get their honor back by electing a new Jesus but are too stuck in their immoral condition to do what is necessary for peace.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; petite mort that is.
La petite mort—I do not believe it means what you think it means.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; petite mort that is.
La petite mort—I do not believe it means what you think it means.
Oh come now.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
GIA--
Ohhhh, myyyyy.
(With a nod to George Takei.)
Isn't the Gnostic path supposed to make you free? ISTM you've weighed yourself down with a whole lot of Stuff. You seem to be envisioning yourself as a messiah, prophet, or God. That can trip you up.
Sometimes, it's best to just focus on getting your own self and life in order, and try to treat everyone decently.
If I may suggest, read Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart" and "After The Ecstasy, The Laundry".
Good luck. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; petite mort that is.
La petite mort—I do not believe it means what you think it means.
Oh come now.
Now, now boys, play nicely!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I come to this place to war with Christians and Muslims
Greatest I am, you've said something like this several times now.
Our Commandment 8 says
quote:
Don't use these boards to promote personal crusades. This space is not here for people to pursue specific agendas
The intro at the top of this board declares it to be quote:
our serious discussion space
and goes on to say quote:
All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challenged
You are welcome here to discuss, but you are not welcome to pursue a personal agenda or war, whether rhetorical or otherwise.
You are not required to change your ideas, but you are required to abide by our rules of engagement. Failure to do so will attract the intervention of an Admin.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; petite mort that is.
La petite mort—I do not believe it means what you think it means.
Oh come now.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And that's two fingers back from the People of the Book to yours GIa. Bless.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Gnostics Christians and especially those who have suffered Apotheosis or enjoyed Gnosis tend to shame Christianity and Christians into silence during debates and discussions.
It's odd, because the only place 'Gnostic-you' has engaged in debate or discussion on this website is on the thread you started where everyone else is still challenging you (and debating and discussing) and you're saying nothing. You're "carefully avoiding" questions and ignoring whole posts. No evidence of you "shaming Christians into silence" there.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Jesus’s ghost, as in consciousness, told me; I was only a little dead. So were you; petite mort that is.
La petite mort—I do not believe it means what you think it means.
That can be said of all words.
Did you have a pertinent judgement or comment of the O.P.?
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
GIA--
Ohhhh, myyyyy.
(With a nod to George Takei.)
Isn't the Gnostic path supposed to make you free? ISTM you've weighed yourself down with a whole lot of Stuff. You seem to be envisioning yourself as a messiah, prophet, or God. That can trip you up.
Sometimes, it's best to just focus on getting your own self and life in order, and try to treat everyone decently.
If I may suggest, read Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart" and "After The Ecstasy, The Laundry".
Good luck.
Thanks. Luck may have a function but perseverance and skill is more important. I hope.
My life is near perfect, so says my wife. I like to argue but as with many who believe in the supernatural, I just cannot win because of their delusion.
To your first.
Jesus dis say in scriptures that we are to pick up our crosses and follow him.
Strange that you would chastise me for doing so.
Call me what you will, but those who believe in the supernatural and follow the mainstream Gods cannot trip me up. Not where morals are being discussed.
What chance against good morals does a genocidal son murdering God have.
Yahweh and Jesus are moral midgets as compared to most moral people.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I come to this place to war with Christians and Muslims
Greatest I am, you've said something like this several times now.
Our Commandment 8 says
quote:
Don't use these boards to promote personal crusades. This space is not here for people to pursue specific agendas
The intro at the top of this board declares it to be quote:
our serious discussion space
and goes on to say quote:
All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challenged
You are welcome here to discuss, but you are not welcome to pursue a personal agenda or war, whether rhetorical or otherwise.
You are not required to change your ideas, but you are required to abide by our rules of engagement. Failure to do so will attract the intervention of an Admin.
/hosting
I will do my best.
By war, I meant that in debates, I go for the throat, so to speak, so I hope choking of immoral Christian throats does not bother you.
Just kidding my friend.
Sort of.
Regards
DL
P.S.
All here have an agenda encompassed in three words. Teach, preach or learn.
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Gnostics Christians and especially those who have suffered Apotheosis or enjoyed Gnosis tend to shame Christianity and Christians into silence during debates and discussions.
It's odd, because the only place 'Gnostic-you' has engaged in debate or discussion on this website is on the thread you started where everyone else is still challenging you (and debating and discussing) and you're saying nothing. You're "carefully avoiding" questions and ignoring whole posts. No evidence of you "shaming Christians into silence" there.
Are you the guy I challenged to debate the morality of Christianity?
If so, get to it.
If not, care to engage?
I had mentioned Jesus' no divorce law and his sacrifice law to be particularly immoral.
Let me know if and where.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Did you have a pertinent judgement or comment of the O.P.?
Not especially, other than that I found it tediously long, sophomoric and not really worth responding to, especially given the lack of any real engagement you've shown to responses to your other posts. I see no reason to play the game.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
By war, I meant that in debates, I go for the throat, so to speak, so I hope choking of immoral Christian throats does not bother you.
Just kidding my friend.
Sort of.
Regards
DL
P.S.
All here have an agenda encompassed in three words. Teach, preach or learn.
If you want to dispute host posts, do so in the Styx. Failure to respect the Ship's crew is a breach of our Commandment 6.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Are you the guy I challenged to debate the morality of Christianity?
I suspect I am one of several "guys" you challenged to debate the morality of Christianity, but debating is not something you ever get around to doing, here or anywhere else.
quote:
If not, care to engage?
I have engaged, several times. You "carefully ignored" my posts. Perhaps a good starting point in "engagement" would be for you to go back and answer the many questions you were asked but which you failed to answer.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Misha you are rapidly becoming one of my favorite "thinker" posters (along with Dyfed and Lamb Chopped, among others).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
P.S.
All here have an agenda encompassed in three words. Teach, preach or learn.
Or find out what's going on, work through our religious and other issues, vent, mourn, celebrate, pray for each other, make friends, or even just talk to each other.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hello G.B.
Not going to blow your "other board" cover here, but if you're evangelizing for Gnosticism, I don't know if the internet is really the forum you should be using.
Gnosis is insight that arises from direct experience. The best the internet can offer is meta-experience.
Debate only serves the purpose of hardening people's conviction of their being right. The more you push the harder they resist.
Can you tell us about some kind of direct, live and immediate experience you had that gave rise to some personal insight into what you declare in your original post?
As a small-g gnostic, I'm hoping you can share something of your own experience with us.
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
AFF--
Hey, good to see you!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Misha you are rapidly becoming one of my favorite "thinker" posters (along with Dyfed and Lamb Chopped, among others).
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Aw shucks. You say the sweetest things. (Sometimes.)
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
Not going to blow your "other board" cover here
There are enough links on the Ship to GIa/GB/DL's reiterative posts on other sites to... well... sink a ship. Interesting that you should think of him as using "cover" though.
quote:
...their ideologies are not worthy of man, in moral and ethical terms.
This, I think, is the comment that shows the most obvious lack of understanding. Christians (and, presumably, Muslims) believe their ideology to be "moral and ethical" because we judge our ideology* against a "moral and ethical" scale that we have determined within our ideology.
GIa, OTOH, views that ideology from a completely different perspective, interprets it in a way that suits his own ends and measures it against a "moral and ethical" scale that he has determined within his ideology. Lo and behold, the ideology he wants to discredit turns out not to fit within the "moral and ethical" band on his scale. And he is surprised by that? How odd (and how shallow).
It is as well to remember that there is no intellectual value in saying "A's morals and ethics are wrong according to B's scale of morals and ethics." So what? Who is to say that B's scale is correct? The ideology of Christianity and Islam are only lacking in M&Es - (a) according to GIa's (flawed) interpretation of Christianity and Islam and
- (b) according to GIa's code of morals and ethics.
Personally, I don't want my ideology to fit with GIa's or other gnostics' ideologies because, as somebody wrote recently; quote:
their ideologies suck.
*Sticking with "ideology" singular for convenience, although I'm not sure Christianity really has a singular ideology.
[ 01. October 2016, 12:40: Message edited by: Teekeey Misha ]
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
AFF--
Hey, good to see you!
And you as well!
Of course when I saw there was a Gnostic posting all over the place here I had to come in and have a look.
Having trouble following, but here I am.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
You're not the only one having trouble following.
I'm glad that you are here. I think we benighted Christians need some context. Or something. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
You're not the only one having trouble following.
I'm glad that you are here. I think we benighted Christians need some context. Or something.
Well, let's see if we can get some.
GIa hinted at a personal "dark night of the soul" that brought him to some kind of inner insight or contact with the numinous within.
But from there, I'm having trouble following the thread or placing it in context of one or the other Gnostic schools of thought - Manichaean or Valentinian - but it's the nature of gnosis to be personal. Individual, even.
So from there, it doesn't have to make sense to us.
But if it's a war of words that the GIa is bringing, then the first volley seems to me to be somewhat, erm, scattershot. It seems to me it's incumbent upon GIa to make his position comprehensible, at least in words.
Hoping for a little more clarity.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Good to see you back, AFF. I appreciate that the term Gnostic covers a spectrum of beliefs, central to which is the concept of salvific knowledge. But, like you, I'd appreciate a little more insight, more clarity, about where Greatest I am is within that spectrum.
Greatest I am, it would be wrong to assume that none of your Shipmates knows much about Gnosis. Personally, I've spent a good deal of time studying Gnosticism. I think if you want to engage with folks here, rather than confront our assumed beliefs and ignorance, it would help a lot if you got more involved with the opportunities for dialogue on specific issues.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
GIA--
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Thanks. Luck may have a function but perseverance and skill is more important. I hope.
Think of it as wishing you well on your journey, then.
quote:
My life is near perfect, so says my wife. I like to argue but as with many who believe in the supernatural, I just cannot win because of their delusion.
From your posts, you seem to me to be more interested in conquering and squishing anyone who disagrees with you, than in having an actual argument or discussion.
Have you any pity or empathy for those who haven't yet seen your truth? Or do you just want to be Right? Do you want to help them, or stomp on them?
quote:
To your first.
Jesus dis say in scriptures that we are to pick up our crosses and follow him.
Strange that you would chastise me for doing so.
Respectfully and TBH, your OP sounds like anything *but* that. To me, your posts read rather like you are the target of the Ingersoll quote in the OP.
quote:
Call me what you will, but those who believe in the supernatural and follow the mainstream Gods cannot trip me up. Not where morals are being discussed.
Actually, I didn't call you anything. I said that you seemed, from your posts, to see yourself in a certain way; and that *that* could trip you up. Think of it as a highway warning sign. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
If I may ask: is it the teachings and scriptures of the mainstream deities that bother you, or actual behavior of their followers?
Horrible things have been done, and are being done, in the name of religion. (I have days when I hum John Lennon's "Imagine". Look up the lyrics, if you don't know them. His commentary on the religious aspect of the Irish Troubles, AIUI.)
CS Lewis once said that someone should write a book that lists and apologizes for all the bad things done in the name of Christianity. But IMHO much good has been done, too, like medical care, schools, and help for the poor. Even people who loathe religion often acknowledge that.
quote:
What chance against good morals does a genocidal son murdering God have.
Actually, we've discussed this a lot on the Ship.
Some samples:
(Limbo archive) "Purgatory: God the pathological killer?"
(Limbo archive) "Purgatory: Theodicy and The Fall"
(Limbo archive) "Purgatory: P**d off with God"
(Limbo archive) "Hell: Calling God to Hell"
FWIW: there's more to us than your stereotypes.
quote:
Yahweh and Jesus are moral midgets as compared to most moral people.
Hmmm. I'm very familiar with that view of Yahweh. But I don't think I've ever come across that allegation aimed at Jesus. Would you explain a bit, please? And what is Jesus' "law of sacrifice" that you mentioned?
Thanks.
[ 02. October 2016, 11:31: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
OK did we lose the OP? Paging GIa. Help us out here?
Thank you Brother Barnabas, and Lyda Rose and Golden Key for the kind greetings. Hugs.
Maybe we can get establish some comprehension of GIa's gnosis - from there maybe we have a discussion.
On a personal note, I had an intimate, live and immediate revelation of the Christ in my living room (twice, 6 days apart) when I was 24. The message I got was different. Nothing about the experience told me to become a warrior or soldier for Christ.
In fact He told me that if He wanted the world to know what He was revealing to me, He would have appeared already at a NASCAR race, or the Superbowl, or the UN.
What was between us remains between us. But I don't think I'm special. In fact I think I'm kind of stubborn, slow and dense because most people understand without having to stick their hands in his wounds (like Thomas).
But that was my experience - everyone's mileage differs.
AFF
[ 02. October 2016, 14:47: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
GIa talks like all Gnostics askew the supernatural. I understand that he does; but I always previously thought that gnostics were usually more like you, depending on individual revelation, often within the framework of the revelations of historic Gnostics. Are you aware of a particular strand of Gnosticism that not only rejects Yahweh (pretty well ubiquitous) but also considers Jesus to have been a "moral midget"? Which is actually rather odd for someone who cites the directive of Jesus to "take up your cross" as something that motivates him.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
GIa talks like all Gnostics askew the supernatural. I understand that he does; but I always previously thought that gnostics were usually more like you, depending on individual revelation, often within the framework of the revelations of historic Gnostics.
Yeah. I was a gnostic before I knew I was a gnostic. The personal experiences that I had in my youth led me to certain conclusions, and I thought I was alone in my thought process.
When I encountered the translations of the non-canonical gospels in my late 20s, I was so comforted that not only was I not alone, I wasn't even the first.
It seems strange - even for someone who abhors groupthink as I do - to find relief in finding those of like mind.
But I never kid myself - gnostics agree on some of the broad strokes some of the time, and differ in the details almost all the time.
Like Manichaean dualism - I can't get with that. At. All. But I get why it makes sense to a lot of people. It's pointless to argue.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Are you aware of a particular strand of Gnosticism that not only rejects Yahweh (pretty well ubiquitous) but also considers Jesus to have been a "moral midget"? Which is actually rather odd for someone who cites the directive of Jesus to "take up your cross" as something that motivates him.
Not aware of the school of thought that places Jesus morally beyond the pale. I have to admit that reading GIa's original post it sounds like two people with two different viewpoints are interrupting each other mid-sentence.
This is why I want to find out more about GIa's gnosis and his personal experience. Like why would he focus on the immorality of Jesus' teachings on divorce, but ignore the morality of the Great Commandment?
(BTW if Jesus did in fact say anything about divorce I doubt it was Him. I rather suspect Paul of putting words in His mouth).
So there are many questions here.
Still waiting for some context.
LAFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
(BTW if Jesus did in fact say anything about divorce I doubt it was Him. I rather suspect Paul of putting words in His mouth).
tangent/
James Dunn (in "Jesus Remembered") suggests that what we have in the NT (different versions) are memories of a conversation between Jesus and the disciples. Within which his point is to say that both Rabbi Shammai and Rabbi Hillel were wrong in allowing divorce given the complete absence of rights for women. The aim was to remind husbands that if they broke their promises to their wives they were abandoning them without support and that was wrong. That was the "hardness of heart". The aim was not to produce an indissoluble straitjacket, simply to remind disciples of their responsibilities, which they had promised to keep. It was a specific outworking of "let your yes be yes", and it was addressed to men.
I think this is a pretty compelling reading.
/tangent
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
tangent/
James Dunn (in "Jesus Remembered") suggests that what we have in the NT (different versions) are memories of a conversation between Jesus and the disciples. Within which his point is to say that both Rabbi Shammai and Rabbi Hillel were wrong in allowing divorce given the complete absence of rights for women. The aim was to remind husbands that if they broke their promises to their wives they were abandoning them without support and that was wrong. That was the "hardness of heart". The aim was not to produce an indissoluble straitjacket, simply to remind disciples of their responsibilities, which they had promised to keep. It was a specific outworking of "let your yes be yes", and it was addressed to men.
I think this is a pretty compelling reading.
/tangent
Thank you for this Brother Barnabas.
As always, context is extremely helpful when we are called to understand another's point of view.
It hardly seems immoral from this angle.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Thank you for your answer, AFF. That's helpful.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Are you the guy I challenged to debate the morality of Christianity?
I suspect I am one of several "guys" you challenged to debate the morality of Christianity, but debating is not something you ever get around to doing, here or anywhere else.
quote:
If not, care to engage?
I have engaged, several times. You "carefully ignored" my posts. Perhaps a good starting point in "engagement" would be for you to go back and answer the many questions you were asked but which you failed to answer.
I do not bother with dumb questions.
My focus is moral values and most believers, cannot engage in those as they know they will lose.
Regards
DL
[ 04. October 2016, 14:52: Message edited by: Greatest I am ]
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I do not bother with dumb questions.
My focus is moral values and most believers, cannot engage in those as they know they will lose.
Truly, your intellect is dazzling us. Your skills in debating moral values are as legendary as Kim Jong-il's golfing abilities!
We bow to your superior....whatever.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
Hello G.B.
Not going to blow your "other board" cover here, but if you're evangelizing for Gnosticism, I don't know if the internet is really the forum you should be using.
Gnosis is insight that arises from direct experience. The best the internet can offer is meta-experience.
Debate only serves the purpose of hardening people's conviction of their being right. The more you push the harder they resist.
Can you tell us about some kind of direct, live and immediate experience you had that gave rise to some personal insight into what you declare in your original post?
As a small-g gnostic, I'm hoping you can share something of your own experience with us.
What I put of my apotheosis was a direct and live experience.
As to those who resist thinking in a good and moral way, if their morality is that unimportant to them then their religions have won and they have lost their humanity and are no longer my direct concern, although they are still not fit to be called a human.
Sheeple is what applies to such brain dead people.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Good to see you back, AFF. I appreciate that the term Gnostic covers a spectrum of beliefs, central to which is the concept of salvific knowledge. But, like you, I'd appreciate a little more insight, more clarity, about where Greatest I am is within that spectrum.
Greatest I am, it would be wrong to assume that none of your Shipmates knows much about Gnosis. Personally, I've spent a good deal of time studying Gnosticism. I think if you want to engage with folks here, rather than confront our assumed beliefs and ignorance, it would help a lot if you got more involved with the opportunities for dialogue on specific issues.
That will happen over time.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I do not bother with dumb questions.
The problem, I suspect, is that you don't bother with any questions.
quote:
My focus is moral values and most believers, cannot engage in those as they know they will lose.
There are, you will, far more people here who are capable of both engaging with your "focus" and of not "losing" than you suspect. Sadly, you are never going to witness them "winning" since, as soon as you find yourself "losing", you disengage.
Here are some more dumb questions for you to ignore.
quote:
As to those who resist thinking in a good and moral way...
Why do you get to decide what is "good and moral"? I have seen little in any of your posts to suggest that you are well-placed to judge what is either good or moral.
quote:
...if their morality is that unimportant to them...
Who are you to determine the importance other people assign to their morality and how do you determine it?
quote:
... and they have lost their humanity...
Isn't your deciding who is "human" just as presumptuous as you deciding what is "moral and good"?
quote:
...and are no longer my direct concern...
Is that why you challenge them to engage with you before refusing to engage with them?
quote:
..although they are still not fit to be called a human.
Why do you still think that's your call to make?
quote:
Sheeple is what applies to such brain dead people.
Why are they brain dead "sheeple" for following their belief system (any belief system) but you're not one of the brain dead "sheeple" for following your belief system? In other words, why do you assume that those whose thoughts lead to a different place than yours haven't thought at all? Is that not a case of one's arrogance maintaining one's ignorance?
[ 04. October 2016, 15:51: Message edited by: Teekeey Misha ]
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
they have lost their humanity ... not fit to be called a human.
Sheeple ... brain dead people.
The context of your post implies that you are directing these comments to people here. Name calling is not part of serious discussion. If you wish to call people here names, you can do so in Hell. I'm sure there would be a few people here who would quite like to see you post there.
If you can't make serious, intelligent comments then it raises the question whether this is the best place for you to discuss your opinions. There is a limit to how many times one of us will address your style of posting here, and you are very close to it.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
GIA--
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Thanks. Luck may have a function but perseverance and skill is more important. I hope.
Think of it as wishing you well on your journey, then.
quote:
My life is near perfect, so says my wife. I like to argue but as with many who believe in the supernatural, I just cannot win because of their delusion.
From your posts, you seem to me to be more interested in conquering and squishing anyone who disagrees with you, than in having an actual argument or discussion.
Have you any pity or empathy for those who haven't yet seen your truth? Or do you just want to be Right? Do you want to help them, or stomp on them?
quote:
To your first.
Jesus dis say in scriptures that we are to pick up our crosses and follow him.
Strange that you would chastise me for doing so.
Respectfully and TBH, your OP sounds like anything *but* that. To me, your posts read rather like you are the target of the Ingersoll quote in the OP.
quote:
Call me what you will, but those who believe in the supernatural and follow the mainstream Gods cannot trip me up. Not where morals are being discussed.
Actually, I didn't call you anything. I said that you seemed, from your posts, to see yourself in a certain way; and that *that* could trip you up. Think of it as a highway warning sign.
If I may ask: is it the teachings and scriptures of the mainstream deities that bother you, or actual behavior of their followers?
Horrible things have been done, and are being done, in the name of religion. (I have days when I hum John Lennon's "Imagine". Look up the lyrics, if you don't know them. His commentary on the religious aspect of the Irish Troubles, AIUI.)
CS Lewis once said that someone should write a book that lists and apologizes for all the bad things done in the name of Christianity. But IMHO much good has been done, too, like medical care, schools, and help for the poor. Even people who loathe religion often acknowledge that.
quote:
What chance against good morals does a genocidal son murdering God have.
Actually, we've discussed this a lot on the Ship.
Some samples:
(Limbo archive) "Purgatory: God the pathological killer?"
(Limbo archive) "Purgatory: Theodicy and The Fall"
(Limbo archive) "Purgatory: P**d off with God"
(Limbo archive) "Hell: Calling God to Hell"
FWIW: there's more to us than your stereotypes.
quote:
Yahweh and Jesus are moral midgets as compared to most moral people.
Hmmm. I'm very familiar with that view of Yahweh. But I don't think I've ever come across that allegation aimed at Jesus. Would you explain a bit, please? And what is Jesus' "law of sacrifice" that you mentioned?
Thanks.
Thank you for your first. Ditto.
To a Trinitarian, which is most Christians, Jesus and Yahweh are two of three who make up the Godhead.
I can appreciate why the holy Ghost does not associate with that combo of immorality.
Jesus, if moral, would have not agreed with Yahweh and his sacrifice.
I have this old apology.
Human sacrifice is evil and God/Yahweh demanding one and Jesus accepting one is evil. Jesus accepted the premise of his sacrifice being somehow just. This is evil.
Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.
Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.
Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?
In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
Do you agree?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.
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" Or do you just want to be Right?"
The opposite is true. I prefer to learn. Not teach or preach.
Imagine is a great song.
Imagine a world where religionist who believe in an immoral God were not kept in check by a much saner secular government.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
OK did we lose the OP? Paging GIa. Help us out here?
Thank you Brother Barnabas, and Lyda Rose and Golden Key for the kind greetings. Hugs.
Maybe we can get establish some comprehension of GIa's gnosis - from there maybe we have a discussion.
On a personal note, I had an intimate, live and immediate revelation of the Christ in my living room (twice, 6 days apart) when I was 24. The message I got was different. Nothing about the experience told me to become a warrior or soldier for Christ.
In fact He told me that if He wanted the world to know what He was revealing to me, He would have appeared already at a NASCAR race, or the Superbowl, or the UN.
What was between us remains between us. But I don't think I'm special. In fact I think I'm kind of stubborn, slow and dense because most people understand without having to stick their hands in his wounds (like Thomas).
But that was my experience - everyone's mileage differs.
AFF
You have yet to meet your Mother, as in the feminine side of Jung and Freud's Father Complex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_complex
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
GIa talks like all Gnostics askew the supernatural. I understand that he does; but I always previously thought that gnostics were usually more like you, depending on individual revelation, often within the framework of the revelations of historic Gnostics. Are you aware of a particular strand of Gnosticism that not only rejects Yahweh (pretty well ubiquitous) but also considers Jesus to have been a "moral midget"? Which is actually rather odd for someone who cites the directive of Jesus to "take up your cross" as something that motivates him.
A Gnostic Christian will like the more Eastern Jesus who is a seeker after God. We do not like the, --- supernatural son of Yahweh, --- Jesus who advocates barbaric human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.
Most have forgotten that they are Gods and refuse to judge that sacrifice policy as immoral.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
[qb]
This is why I want to find out more about GIa's gnosis and his personal experience. Like why would he focus on the immorality of Jesus' teachings on divorce, but ignore the morality of the Great Commandment?
(BTW if Jesus did in fact say anything about divorce I doubt it was Him. I rather suspect Paul of putting words in His mouth).
Jesus was clear that the Ten Commandments were not fit for man and that is why he basically change to his two commandments. Love God and love man.
The wrong order as love requires reciprocity and there are no Gods about to serve mankind.
As to the immorality of a no-divorce policy, it is clearly anti love and not even humane. It is not moral to deny anyone the opportunity to find a loving and lifelong situation in or out of marriage.
As to why I focus on the morality of the Gods; morality of the Gods should be the number one focus of all of us because their immoral ways created a lot of unnecessary evil in the world.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
None of this applies to anyone here, any Christian I know. Or any you know either. Or any Jesus anyone knows. Except you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
[qb]
The aim was not to produce an indissoluble straitjacket, simply to remind disciples of their responsibilities, which they had promised to keep. ]
First. You sell ancient Jewish women short.
http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm
Second. The aim may not have been to produce an indissoluble straitjacket, but that is what it was.
It stemmed from a paternalistic and misogynous mind set that did not want to share equality with women under the law.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
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Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
[QB]
quote:
...if their morality is that unimportant to them...
Why do you get to decide what is "good and moral"? I have seen little in any of your posts to suggest that you are well-placed to judge what is either good or moral.
-----
Who are you to determine the importance other people assign to their morality and how do you determine it?
I do not decide. I pick my side and the debate can decide.
If those in religions do not have the morality of their God and ideology, first and foremost, and their wish to emulate that God or follow his ideology as second, then what do you think they have as their first duties within their religions?
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
[qb]
The aim was not to produce an indissoluble straitjacket, simply to remind disciples of their responsibilities, which they had promised to keep. ]
First. You sell ancient Jewish women short.
http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm
Second. The aim may not have been to produce an indissoluble straitjacket, but that is what it was.
It stemmed from a paternalistic and misogynous mind set that did not want to share equality with women under the law.
Regards
DL
On whose part?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
[QB]
quote:
...if their morality is that unimportant to them...
Why do you get to decide what is "good and moral"? I have seen little in any of your posts to suggest that you are well-placed to judge what is either good or moral.
-----
Who are you to determine the importance other people assign to their morality and how do you determine it?
I do not decide. I pick my side and the debate can decide.
If those in religions do not have the morality of their God and ideology, first and foremost, and their wish to emulate that God or follow his ideology as second, then what do you think they have as their first duties within their religions?
Regards
DL
A lemon.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Imagine you have two children...
This tome was laughable and unimpressive the first time you posted it here on the Ship. (and ran away from discussing it) as I told you here.
I'm not sure which is worse; that you have already published this dross on a dozen other websites before the Ship or that you expect us to have it read it twice here. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 04. October 2016, 22:15: Message edited by: Teekeey Misha ]
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Martin--
Psssst. Is that a koan (Buddhist riddle); or are you saying "go suck a lemon"; or that the religious should hand out lemons; or that something GIA said is a lemon, as in it doesn't work?
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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