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Source: (consider it) Thread: When did humans become "Human"?
PaulTH*
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At some point in human evolution, and with our present knowledge we couldn't say when, humans developed enough imagination to stand outside themselves. A predatory species with a conscience formed from being able to feel the pain of the prey. Then every action becomes a moral choice. That's when we became human, because other predatory species have no such constraints on their natural behaviour. I believe that this is the meaning of the Fall. It isn't a fall from a previous perfection, but a failure to live up to the perfection we instinctively know. Thus we have moral codes and laws which attempt to bind the chaos of our instincts into the order of our reason. That's humanity and the battle rages on!

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
At some point in human evolution, and with our present knowledge we couldn't say when, humans developed enough imagination to stand outside themselves. A predatory species with a conscience formed from being able to feel the pain of the prey. Then every action becomes a moral choice. That's when we became human, because other predatory species have no such constraints on their natural behaviour. I believe that this is the meaning of the Fall. It isn't a fall from a previous perfection, but a failure to live up to the perfection we instinctively know. Thus we have moral codes and laws which attempt to bind the chaos of our instincts into the order of our reason. That's humanity and the battle rages on!

I agree 100%

We don't know when it happened, but it's clear that it did.

Did God give us this new form of instinct?

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Did God give us this new form of instinct?

Well this is the divide between people of faith and none. As believers, we would think so, but atheists could argue that it just happened along with the evolution of eyes or wings.

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quetzalcoatl
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Things don't just happen; they are selected by the environment. Or if you like, information from the environment enters into a particular organism.

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rolyn
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Maybe this is what happen to us, our brains grew, took in information from our environment and it made is afraid.
Afraid and aware of our own mortality to such a great extent that we became compelled to try and control everything.

The higher animals are, by contrast inquisitive, intelligent and even feeling. But no species, despite all the ability of evolution, has ever 'become' more, or developed beyond themselves in the way humans have. This makes humanity either a freak or a miracle, and I suppose that all depends on which side of the coin we study.

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mark_in_manchester

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quote:
I believe that this is the meaning of the Fall. It isn't a fall from a previous perfection, but a failure to live up to the perfection we instinctively know.
It has struck me before that the myth of the Garden of Eden sits ok with an evolutionary way of thinking about our origins. The eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents for me the moment this thread is all about, on our way from blue-green algae to modern humanity.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
All of which always produces the convoluted juxtaposition of human evolution against the evolution associated with the natural world.
For example if we were arrive at another planet and influence the development of life there, would that all be part of evolution in the Cosmos. Or would it be better described as part of God's Plan even by an atheist?

This can never happen. Ever. The distances are materially insurmountable. Even for communication. Nobody has discovered our biogenic oxygen in the past billion years and signalled us in the past thousand or so. It's obviously economically impossible, despite the galaxy teeming with sapience.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
At some point in human evolution, and with our present knowledge we couldn't say when, humans developed enough imagination to stand outside themselves. A predatory species with a conscience formed from being able to feel the pain of the prey. Then every action becomes a moral choice. That's when we became human, because other predatory species have no such constraints on their natural behaviour. I believe that this is the meaning of the Fall. It isn't a fall from a previous perfection, but a failure to live up to the perfection we instinctively know. Thus we have moral codes and laws which attempt to bind the chaos of our instincts into the order of our reason. That's humanity and the battle rages on!

I like it ... but. I like it because emotional intelligence, compassion, makes us better predators: what would I do if I were my prey, my competitor? But ... we don't know about any real perfection instinctively: there is no such thing. Certainly not 200,000 years ago. We feel conflicted. That's the human condition. No fall. No failure.

BUT ... I'm a sinner for sure. I fail morally, no problem. I am failing to reach let alone grasp. In caring for my 86 year old mother. In being a male with a pulse encountering quite savage pulses of lust and THEN realising I'm not reacting to my thinking quickly enough. I'm appalled at myself. Both the acute, which one can 'repent' of and the chronic which ... one can't. THAT'S human ...

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
At some point in human evolution, and with our present knowledge we couldn't say when, humans developed enough imagination to stand outside themselves. A predatory species with a conscience formed from being able to feel the pain of the prey. Then every action becomes a moral choice. That's when we became human, because other predatory species have no such constraints on their natural behaviour. I believe that this is the meaning of the Fall. It isn't a fall from a previous perfection, but a failure to live up to the perfection we instinctively know. Thus we have moral codes and laws which attempt to bind the chaos of our instincts into the order of our reason. That's humanity and the battle rages on!

This strikes me as a fantasy created by people who aren't part of the natural environment. Predation/hunting isn't the dominant form of food gathering for hunter-gatherer societies. It is in the few hunter-gather societies left in the world, e.g., northern Canada, but mostly it was gather-hunter societies. It is far less risky to gather than hunt. Fishing is better than hunting re risk. Even with hunting, the usual response to a successful hunt is to give thanks and make an offering to the "brother/sister animal" which gave its life for us. Not a feeling the pain of prey. Rather an understanding of the place of themselves and the animals killed and eaten in the chain of beingness.

The real move out of Eden is into farms and herder/ranches, where only certain species of animals and plants are valued. Now we're in a situation where humans are at the top of the hierarchy with the natural world subordinate, and disaster with crops or animal disease can spell disaster.

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quetzalcoatl
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British TV has an interesting programme next week, on BBC2. It's called 'lost tribes of humanity' and seems to look at different human species. 12 October, 9pm.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
The eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents for me the moment this thread is all about, on our way from blue-green algae to modern humanity.

Quite, and certainly the Spiritual equivalent of the moment at which our angst seemed to kick in.

Watched a prog recently about a human built structure buried by sand that pre-dated the pyramids by quite a long way. I think it was considered to be the earliest known temple, all tied up with early obsession over death, ancestors, immortality etc.
Interesting also because it appeared to pre date agriculture. Agriculture being the thing previously assumed to have driven humans to build permanent structures.

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Martin60
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That's fifteen thousand years ago at least, where is it?

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Penny S
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Interesting about the change from gathering/hunting to farming - because I have seen it argued that the farming developed from the women's gathering of crop species bringing the seeds to the current home base, so that there grew up little patches of grain where it fell, or, presumably, other plants from the midden. Which would make women responsible for the move to farming, and thus from the freer life of hunting to the slog of farming. And thus Eve.
Not that the gathering part of the the previous life wasn't a slog. (No, not the fishing, but the chipping limpets off the rocks, and the digging up pignuts, and other allied activities.)
(I gather that the men in societies still living on this scheme come back from the hunt and relax while the women prepare the meals, and don't do much else between hunts.)

[ 06. October 2016, 15:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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There isn't just one society. The two main indigenous groups where I live are Cree and Dené. The languages are as different from each other as English and Chinese. The cultures are widely different as well.

The other point is that hunting and gathering isn't that time consuming in many situations. The density of animals and fish where in the marginal climate where I live is enough, even with the best habitat converted to farms, forestry, mines, that it might take half a day on a bad day to get enough food together. I can imagine in nice environments the effort isn't very great, until the farmers had exterminated animals and plants they didn't value, and set about exterminating each other. It's an interesting thing to come upon a fish camp in late summer, where they are smoking hundred of fish. Or in the fall, about now, when they go off for a week as a community to shoot a couple of dozen elk for the winter. Yes, they are using modern equipment but even so.

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Penny S
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You are only talking about the animal protein, and the large animal protein at that, and not the grains, roots, berries, shellfish and so on, which are time consuming, as is the processing of the arisings, such as grinding, pounding, producing pemmican and suchlike for storing, making plant foods such as manioc edible, turning animal skins into clothing, turning anything into clothing. I saw a photo in Norway of the cod being dried on the cliffs above a fishing village. A field full of the stuff, which had to be taken in every night and then put out again in the morning. By the wife.

I think one study found that in an African h/g group, 20 percent of the food came from the hunt, and 80 from the gathering, and the men had the spare time, while the women didn't.

[ 06. October 2016, 17:12: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Penny S
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Having found the reference with the 20/80 split, I also find that the women in this group (the San) could sometimes collect enough for a week in a couple of days. OTOH, they weren't doing a lot of the other activities I mentioned.
I also found that among the Inuit, it was the men who got eat more vegetable matter, since they ate the stomachs of prey, deliberately to get the stuff.

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Penny S
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And the women of the nearby G'Wi (sp?) had to spend time prepping food after the gathering - boiling up and hammering the stones of fruit to extract the kernels, for example.

Mind you, there's an awful lot of waffle on the subject, and repetition, and copying. And rubbish Powerpoint presentations IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

I've given up.

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rolyn
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http://www.megalithomania.co.uk/michaelarticle.html
Managed a link here which might be a zany one.

The place I was thinking of is Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, which is in fact 11,000 years old.

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Martin60
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Good man. Wow. Knocks the Rollrights in to a cocked hat and they awe me every time.

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rolyn
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The working of gold from our very earliest beginnings looked interesting. It could be that humans became humans when they developed a taste for bling.
No change there then.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The working of gold from our very earliest beginnings looked interesting. It could be that humans became humans when they developed a taste for bling.
No change there then.

I like that. It's a hip-hop version of history.

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Penny S
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Interesting. Especially the selection of dolerite.

Not sure about all the astronomy, though. That the alignments refer to a particular date in the past.

He uses the difference in the north/south alignment as being related to the precession of the equinoxes. The problem with that is that north has always been north. The axis has always been the same. What changes with precession is where the axis points in the sky. Magnetic north moves about, but I can't think of a way in which it could be tracked back as far as he does. The magnetic field is based on a fluid system.

It's very impressive that there were early structures which were related to the calendar. It is a pity to load far more on that than it can reasonably bear.

It would be much more interesting to find out what the environment was like at the suggested times of occupation, what the flora was like during the glaciation of the north, for instance.

I'd like to see more about Rameses IIs visit to the south and so on - but the dates of that would not be so far in the high past as some of that article suggests.

People in the UK make claims about certain structures being on the same meridian when they are provably not. There are also claims about Stonehenge being aligned with the diagonal of the Great Pyramid. I think it would be quite difficult to have structures on the same meridian all the way up Africa. Survey techniques must have been superb.

The nice thing about gold is that you can do so much with it easily. You don't need to anneal it or melt it or anything like that if you find it native. You can bash it into shape, pull it into shape, hammer it thin, twist it, and it never argues with you as other metals do. Let alone it staying shiny whatever.

Why was it abandoned?

Has anyone done analysis of Egyptian artefacts to find the source of their gold? Should be possible.

[ 07. October 2016, 17:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Al Eluia

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't, therefore, hold with this "imbued with a soul at a particular point" guff. Souls, to the extent they exist, evolved along with bodies. But then I largely consider the "soul" to be an emergent property of a complex brain rather than a ghostly additive.

The notion of humans or a human being "imbued with a soul at a particular point" strikes me as an attempt to reconcile evolution with the idea of a (pre-)historical "Adam." I don't put much stock in the latter and don't see it as essential to the truth of Christianity, personally.

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Gwalchmai
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
It has struck me before that the myth of the Garden of Eden sits ok with an evolutionary way of thinking about our origins. The eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents for me the moment this thread is all about, on our way from blue-green algae to modern humanity.

I have thought for a long time that the Church misinterprets the story of Adam and Eve. Mankind didn't "fall" when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. It was only after they had eaten the fruit that they became self-aware and therefore fully human. Before that they were only proto-humans.

As has been pointed out on this thread, human beings are a mixture of good and evil - evil being what is called sin in theological language. Humanity needs to be redeemed from sin, but sinfulness is inherent in being human - there was never a time when there were human beings who were without sin until Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Before then "Adam" and "Eve" were not homo sapiens.

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Eutychus
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Mind officially blown.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
"Adam" and "Eve" were not homo sapiens.

Wow!

Yes - good point!

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
http://www.megalithomania.co.uk/michaelarticle.html
Managed a link here which might be a zany one.

The place I was thinking of is Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, which is in fact 11,000 years old.

The link is total bollocks.

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lilBuddha
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Non-bollocks Gobekli Tepe link.

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Martin60
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I never subscribe. Wiki is minimally OK.

It's easy to imagine pre-agrarian Neolithics with time and resources on their hands doing this. 20 ton stones are impressive. But it's amazing what a gang of guys can do with ground stone axes, earth ramps, logs and rope.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The link is total bollocks.

Did say I wasn't great with links.

However let's remember when archaeologists delve further back than the hieroglyphics, and recorded activity of Ancient Egyptian civilisation, then we are getting into the realms of speculation. So not surprisingly nut theories will tumble out of the closet.

I think there could be something here that sheds new light on the development of advanced societies like the Egyptians who, it has generally been believed, sprung up in splendid isolation and happened on incredible advances purely off it's own wits.
If transpires our ancestors were indeed playing around with gold thousands of years earlier, then it is this thinking that suddenly becomes the bollocks.

As a footnote, my parents generation thought the idea of the Dinosaurs being killed off by a 4km wide meteorite was also a nut theory.

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Martin60
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There is NO scientific basis whatsoever for the CLAIMS, made by a self-publicising provincial pharmacist, in the link. That Neolithics noticed gold in their campfires isn't significant. When we discover that upper and middle and even lower Paleolithics did won't be either. Of course ancient Egypt didn't arise from grunting naked berry pickers.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I never subscribe. Wiki is minimally OK.

Lol. My first reaction was [Confused] but then I twigged. I run a script blocker on my browser, so I was able to read the article I linked without seeing the subscription threat.
Apologies to those who clicked.

rolyn,

Gobekli Tepe is an impressive site and is pushing back certain timelines, but the site you linked is a load of high grade fertiliser.

[ 09. October 2016, 00:07: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Golden Key
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Re Eden, hunter-gatherers, fellow creatures, etc.:


The novel "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn, has an interesting take on it.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

rolyn,

Gobekli Tepe is an impressive site and is pushing back certain timelines, but the site you linked is a load of high grade fertiliser.

OK forgetting for a moment that my link was likely a 'Chariots of the Gods' type load of sh1t.
Are any of us prepared to accept theories that human technology, in terms of architecture and the smelting of precious metals goes back much much further than was previously thought? I.e. Ancient Egypt.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

rolyn,

Gobekli Tepe is an impressive site and is pushing back certain timelines, but the site you linked is a load of high grade fertiliser.

OK forgetting for a moment that my link was likely a 'Chariots of the Gods' type load of sh1t.
Are any of us prepared to accept theories that human technology, in terms of architecture and the smelting of precious metals goes back much much further than was previously thought? I.e. Ancient Egypt.

Egypt didn't invent everything. Smelting. Stone architecture.
Archaeologists are discovering new things all the time which push boundaries further back. And some of them do, and likely will continue, to alter older ideas.
But wild supposition without evidence is just that.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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rolyn--

I don't know what happened, but I'm willing to consider it. Partly because I like to play with ideas. Also because we keep finding that our assumptions and even our learned evaluations are wrong.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Combining this thread and the US presidency one, I am not entirely convinced that the entire human race has made it into being human.
Inventing trousers doesn't make you human if you think what they enclose is the most important part of the anatomy.

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

rolyn,

Gobekli Tepe is an impressive site and is pushing back certain timelines, but the site you linked is a load of high grade fertiliser.

OK forgetting for a moment that my link was likely a 'Chariots of the Gods' type load of sh1t.
Are any of us prepared to accept theories that human technology, in terms of architecture and the smelting of precious metals goes back much much further than was previously thought? I.e. Ancient Egypt.

What theories? Lead was useless, tin nearly so, copper much more useful. No evidence. None at all. That its use precedes 8000 years ago. So no bronze. For hundreds of thousands of years we did nowt.

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Love wins

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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The TV programme coming up on BBC2, is going to say that there were several human species. I think a new one has just been added, homo naledi.

Apart from that, the Neanderthals, the Denisovans, and not forgetting the hobbits.

I also recall the Heidelbergensis, Rudolgensis, Habilis, and Erectus.

Well, it reminds me of that joke, God was inordinately fond of beetles.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't know what happened, but I'm willing to consider it. Partly because I like to play with ideas. Also because we keep finding that our assumptions and even our learned evaluations are wrong.

I count myself as similar and enjoy, (if that is the right word), having our pre-conceptions challenged.
Here in this Country it was long assumed ancient Britons were just hairy dimwits hauling large lumps of rough stone about while Egyptian Civilisation was knocking spots off us.
Whilst the level of sophistication may have been different it is now thought our level intellect may not have been likewise lacking.

Further to theories re. very early human activity, I am thinking that if things were going on before the Ice Age, then who is to say evidence proving humans were doing rather more than diddly squit wasn't erased.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Martin60
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What pre-conceptions do you think you have that are relevant?

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Love wins

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Err, I personally don't have any.

Just talking generally. Like everyone had the commonly held preconception that the Earth was flat and the Sun moved until irrefutable evidence said different. And like I said above, until quite recently it was thought ancient Britons were near savages tamed by the Romans. New evidence has cast much doubt on that simplistic analysis.

No harm in thinking outside the box with regards to the origin of our intellect. It seems to me we have, for many Centuries, been subjected to a somewhat patronising view of our ancestors and their capabilities.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Martin60
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# 368

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We all got 'em rolyn. And I'm not aware of that view this century and much of the last.

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Love wins

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

rolyn,

Gobekli Tepe is an impressive site and is pushing back certain timelines, but the site you linked is a load of high grade fertiliser.

OK forgetting for a moment that my link was likely a 'Chariots of the Gods' type load of sh1t.
Are any of us prepared to accept theories that human technology, in terms of architecture and the smelting of precious metals goes back much much further than was previously thought? I.e. Ancient Egypt.

What theories? Lead was useless, tin nearly so, copper much more useful. No evidence. None at all. That its use precedes 8000 years ago. So no bronze. For hundreds of thousands of years we did nowt.


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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

rolyn,

Gobekli Tepe is an impressive site and is pushing back certain timelines, but the site you linked is a load of high grade fertiliser.

OK forgetting for a moment that my link was likely a 'Chariots of the Gods' type load of sh1t.
Are any of us prepared to accept theories that human technology, in terms of architecture and the smelting of precious metals goes back much much further than was previously thought? I.e. Ancient Egypt.

What theories? Lead was useless, tin nearly so, copper much more useful. No evidence. None at all. That its use precedes 8000 years ago. So no bronze. For hundreds of thousands of years we did nowt.

? he asked disingenuously.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
? he asked disingenuously.

That wouldn't be you trying to spill over conflicts from elsewhere into Purgatory, would it? I sincerely hope not, because you are in grave danger of attracting adminly attention once again.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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# 368

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No Sir. I was trying to semaphore the common man response to an empty quote of myself, i.e. an unspoken 'Why have you done this?' and then the spoken 'he asked disingenuously' of myself meaning that I know full well why I was quoted without comment, with a tacit 'We did nothing for two hundred thousand years because we weren't there, because we've only been here 6020.'.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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hosting/

Then pray be that explicit next time. Semaphore is about as useful in communicating on here as your raised eyebrows when you read a post.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Watched the lost tribes of humanity programme last night, quite interesting and plausible. An 80 thousand year old human tooth preserved as if it fell out yesterday, incredible.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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