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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Perception of skin color in TV
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is British TV preoccupied with black and white the same way American TV is? (I seem to hear the terms brown and First Nations more often in Canada at present)
Not sure what you mean by obsessed. It does not seem so to me.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is British TV preoccupied with black and white the same way American TV is?
No. ISTM that American TV portrays a melting pot, whilst in American society the races are fairly segregated. Whereas British TV portrays a monoculture, whilst in society the races are less segregated in some ways.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is British TV preoccupied with black and white the same way American TV is?
No. ISTM that American TV portrays a melting pot, whilst in American society the races are fairly segregated. Whereas British TV portrays a monoculture, whilst in society the races are less segregated in some ways.
It isn't quite that simple. A mixed couple is more likely to appear on British telly than American. Especially without that being the focus.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Curiosity Killed...
quote:
One of the summer 2015 productions, Nell Gwynn, moved to the West End and recast the lead as Gemma Arterton instead of the very good black actor who played the part at The Globe. With what we know of Nell Gwynn, it wasn't impossible she was black. King Charles II was famously swarthy.
I'd judge it unlikely, based on her portrait. Unless you take the Baldrick view of these matters.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A black actor playing Colombo without altering the script, what is he going to interpret differently?
Columbo (the character) was an Italian-American - the scripts reference his ethnicity several times, and in couple of episodes it's even significant. Peter Falk isn't, as far as I know, of Italian descent, and doesn't look or sound Italian to me. I didn't find that affected my enjoyment of the show. (I have the box set and watched it back-to-back while convalescing last year - there are some benefits to heart surgery).
I think a black Columbo would have been different - and interesting. Because quite a lot of the point of that show was character interaction - the detective solving the crimes by sympathy, manipulation and brainpower in approximately equal measures - and how the audience and the other characters perceived and reacted to Columbo was central. Given that I know that race and racism are issues in the USA, it would stretch credibility too far to think that the other character's could see, and be influenced by, the colour of his coat, but not the colour of his skin.
I think an actor could probably make that work with the script as written - but it would make a difference.
Summary - I've no problem (morally or artistically) with an actor portraying a character of another ethnicity, but I don't think you can always change a character's explicit or implied ethnicity without changing the message.
A recent character race change on TV was in the Preacher TV show, an adaptation of a series of graphics novels. In the books, Tulip O'Hare has an aggressively white American background. The TV character is non-white (the actor is of Ethiopian and Irish heritage, according to Wikipedia). Although both Tulips are intelligent, bad-ass, likeable, and of dubious morality, they are otherwise portrayed very differently. The white character's home life is shown as odd, but basically happy, she has wealthy and privileged friends, and her past character-shaping misfortunes are those associated with white America (hunting accidents and frat-party attempted rapes) whereas the black character comes from a deprived background, and her family is clearly viewed as trash. Both Tulip characters end up sleeping with the character Cassidy, but the white character does so because she is heartbroken, the black one because she is horny.
Since the TV show changes a lot of stuff that's in the books, it doesn't follow that all of those changes were made because of the change to the character's race, but it probably is significant that all of them were felt to be consistent with the change of race.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A black actor playing Colombo without altering the script, what is he going to interpret differently?
Columbo (the character) was an Italian-American
- the scripts reference his ethnicity several times, and in couple of episodes it's even significant.
This fellow is Italian American. Likely as much as many all-white Americans who claim the same.
quote:
I think a black Columbo would have been different - and interesting. Because quite a lot of the point of that show was character interaction - the detective solving the crimes by sympathy, manipulation and brainpower in approximately equal measures - and how the audience and the other characters perceived and reacted to Columbo was central. Given that I know that race and racism are issues in the USA, it would stretch credibility too far to think that the other character's could see, and be influenced by, the colour of his coat, but not the colour of his skin.
And yet, this show did that very thing for 56 episodes, years in syndication and a strong cult following to this day. I haven't seen as many episodes of this show, but I do not remember race being a factor for the ones I did.
This show did not reflect attitudes of the era in which it was filmed and certainly not of the era which it represents.
quote:
I think an actor could probably make that work with the script as written - but it would make a difference.
I am not saying that it would not make a difference, but challenging what needs to be changed and why as well as what differences it would make.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Columbo (the character) was an Italian-American
- the scripts reference his ethnicity several times, and in couple of episodes it's even significant.
This fellow is Italian American. Likely as much as many all-white Americans who claim the same.
And that guy, reading Columbo's script, would be playing a character that I would respond to completely differently to Peter Falk's interpretation. The ear-rings and the flamboyantly styled hair would mean that the character was projecting a wholly different image to the on-screen world, and would be engaging with suspects in a quite different manner to his alternate-self in a shabby rain-coat.
That's not because I think that a man with ear-rings is a fundamentally different order of being to a man in a rain-coat. In real life, I doubt I'd care either way about the appearance of either. But the story is one which is, to a large degree, about image, and about perceptions of and reactions to a projected image, and I know enough to find it very plausible that people are, in general, going to treat those two ways of accessorising very differently.
Exactly the same is true of skin colour.
I'm sure that there are roles where colour doesn't matter - and it is certainly possible to tell stories where race is not an issue. But not all roles, and not all stories.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
What I don't get is how a black Henry VI* is OK, but a white Aida isn't.
Especially given how one is a genuine historical character and the other is fiction.
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*= I saw all three plays, and by God he did a great job.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
And that guy, reading Columbo's script, would be playing a character that I would respond to completely differently to Peter Falk's interpretation. The ear-rings and the flamboyantly styled hair would mean that the character was projecting a wholly different image to the on-screen world, and would be engaging with suspects in a quite different manner to his alternate-self in a shabby rain-coat.
His youthful appearance wasn't the point of the image. It was to illustrate that perception of what characteristics a particular group has, does not always meet reality.
KA's suggestion of Delroy Lindo is fantastic. He could embody all the important story characteristics of Colombo.
quote:
That's not because I think that a man with ear-rings is a fundamentally different order of being to a man in a rain-coat. In real life, I doubt I'd care either way about the appearance of either. But the story is one which is, to a large degree, about image, and about perceptions of and reactions to a projected image, and I know enough to find it very plausible that people are, in general, going to treat those two ways of accessorising very differently.
Exactly the same is true of skin colour.
This is only because of aeons of pretending that colour imparts characteristics which it does not.
quote:
I'm sure that there are roles where colour doesn't matter - and it is certainly possible to tell stories where race is not an issue. But not all roles, and not all stories.
Which roles and what stories? The answers to that say a lot about the answerer. I think there are far fewer race specific roles than most would list.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What I don't get is how a black Henry VI* is OK, but a white Aida isn't.
Especially given how one is a genuine historical character and the other is fiction.
Black actors have fewer role choices, to give the role of a black person to a white person appears to perpetuate that discriminatory practice.
Giving a white role to a black pesron does not have the same effect.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
In "Homicide: Life on the Street", the *wonderful* US crime show, Yaphet Kotto played Lt. Al Giardino. His character's back story (which wasn't revealed right away) was that his father was Italian American and his mother was black. It was quite interesting and cool to see a Italian-American black character. The characters in the show were based on part on real Baltimore homicide detectives, one of whom was a (white) italian-American lieutenant who became "Al Giardino" in the show.
It's possible that the part was originally written for a white actor. I give the creators of the series kudos for not eliminating the Italian-ness of the character when Yaphet Kotto was chosen for the part.
If anyone has not seen "Homicide" and loves good crime drama, this show is a must. The show is based on a superb non-fiction book, "Homicide: a year on the killing streets" by David Simon. Simon was a creator of the "Homicide" show and went on to co-create :"The Wire".
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Which roles and what stories? The answers to that say a lot about the answerer. I think there are far fewer race specific roles than most would list.
After posting I realised that this could be perceived as a veiled accusation of racism. It is not meant to be.
IME, people attach meaning to some things that does not have to be there. Colour is one of those things.
It is often an unconscious attachment.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, when I read the phrase "Black person as Columbo , my heart did a little skip and I thought,"Delroy Lindo!"
Are you confusing Columbo with Kojak? Black Columbo would be somebody like Reginald VelJohnson.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is only because of aeons of pretending that colour imparts characteristics which it does not.
Yes. 100% agree. Only because of that.
But since we all know that's true, if someone is telling a story about a society vaguely like the real one, the race of the characters can affect how they see one another in the context of that story.
Your point seems to be that few modes of story-telling demand that level of realism and that writers are free to just cast black people as black characters without the story being about race. I suppose they can. but if they are telling a story where a black character would be treated differently from a white one if the story were real, they are also free to reflect that. The more realistic the genre, the more they ought to reflect it.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, when I read the phrase "Black person as Columbo , my heart did a little skip and I thought,"Delroy Lindo!"
Are you confusing Columbo with Kojak? Black Columbo would be somebody like Reginald VelJohnson.
Anthony Anderson could pull off Columbo as well. VelJohnson is too old. Anderson is a bit young. Hmmm?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Kojak was very Greek, and that was an integral part of the show and the plots. So a black actor playing him would have to look plausibly at least half Greek, IMHO.
Note: I don't know the demographics of Greeks in Greece. Given the Mediterranean, there may well have been a lot of ethnic mixing.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
But since we all know that's true, if someone is telling a story about a society vaguely like the real one, the race of the characters can affect how they see one another in the context of that story.
There are quite a number of online vids that point out that many of these "realistic" stories have little realism in them. Forensic science that is science fiction, computer science that is fantasy. "Romantic" plot lines that would have a real perpetrator in the dock for stalking and harassment. Court procedurals that would have the barrister debarred.
The list goes on and on and on. I would posit that the majority of television and film is more unrealistic than real.
Going back to the forensic science. I had a friend who was a forensic technician. A CSI, if you will. She spoke of how people believed the rubbish shown on the telly and how it affected the evidence presented in a real court.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kojak was very Greek, and that was an integral part of the show and the plots. So a black actor playing him would have to look plausibly at least half Greek, IMHO.
A great deal was made about Banacek's Polish heritage also, including the crazy Polish proverbs he would come up with. (E.g. "When the wolf is chasing your sleigh, throw him a raisin cookie, but don't stop to bake him a cake.")
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kojak was very Greek, and that was an integral part of the show and the plots. So a black actor playing him would have to look plausibly at least half Greek, IMHO.
A great deal was made about Banacek's Polish heritage also, including the crazy Polish proverbs he would come up with. (E.g. "When the wolf is chasing your sleigh, throw him a raisin cookie, but don't stop to bake him a cake.")
Ving Rhames played Kojak in a 2005 remake.
How much of the plot or story reveolved around Kojak being Greek? They mention it, but was anything else tied to it?
There are stories in which the character's background is tied to the structure of the show and those where it is decoration.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What I don't get is how a black Henry VI* is OK, but a white Aida isn't.
Especially given how one is a genuine historical character and the other is fiction.
Black actors have fewer role choices, to give the role of a black person to a white person appears to perpetuate that discriminatory practice.
Giving a white role to a black pesron does not have the same effect.
There is an example of this in the casting of "The Ancient One" for the forthcoming movie Doctor Strange. In the comics, the character is a really old (one might say "ancient") Tibetan mystic living in a Tibetan mountain lamasery. He is depicted as wise and powerful, being Earth's primary defense against mystic threats from other dimensions.
So: Old Tibetan man in Tibetan lamasery. So what does the film do? Cast a white woman (Tilda Swinton) in the part, of course.
But the reasons aren't all that straightforward, as explained by one of the movie's writers.
I am uncertain about calling the original role "a racist stereotype." Is suggesting that an Asian man is wise and powerful a stereotype? Maybe it is. It does bear some resemblance to Master Po in the Kung Fu television series. And Charlie Chan is always the smartest guy in the room. I guess a stereotype doesn't have to be a negative stereotype. But surely the head of a Tibetan lamasery should be Tibetan? What? They need a white person to guide them? Surely that is far more offensive than suggesting the head of the lamasery is wise.
But what is more interesting is the comment concerning the political situation. The argument is that casting an actual Tibetan to play a powerful Tibetan in Tibet would essentially guaranty that the film would not get released in China, thereby losing a huge potential audience. And, it is argued, to cast a non-Tibetan Asian (such as a Chinese, Japanese or Indian woman) would actually come across more culturally insensitive than going with a white woman.
BTW, the gender switch is not, in itself, all that controversial as far as I can determine--it is the perceived "whitewashing" of the role that gets comments.
Perhaps to combat the backlash against that, Marvel took another character (Baron Mordo), who in the comics is a white nobleman from Transylvania, and cast a black actor (the wonderful Chiwetel Ejiofor) in the part. I would consider Baron Mordo to be the sort of part where race is not an essential part of the character. There is no reason he cannot be black.
Although, in the comic books, Baron Mordo is a bad guy, so making him black may, again, trigger charges of being an offensive change ("Oh, so you think black people are evil?!?") but it is unclear whether he will be a bad guy in this movie. He is certainly not the central villain.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Ving Rhames played Kojak in a 2005 remake.
How much of the plot or story reveolved around Kojak being Greek? They mention it, but was anything else tied to it?
There are stories in which the character's background is tied to the structure of the show and those where it is decoration.
Greekness was deeply a part of the character--and the actor, Telly Savalas, whose parents were Greek immigrants. Take that away, and Kojak wouldn't be Kojak. You could do a show with a similar outline, but a lead character of a different ethnicity. But that would be a different show--and would need to focus on that lead character's ethnic roots.
Here is Wikipedia's list of Kojak episodes. If you search the page for "Greek", you'll find several episodes where his Greekness was a specific part of the plot.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
On the subject of Luke Cage: he has what in a white superhero would be generic powers: superstrength and bulletproof skin. I gather the creative staff realised as they were making it that this is far more charged when the character is black. In the light of the shootings of young black men by police a scene where Cage is confronted by two policemen who think he's guilty of murder takes on a whole lot of resonances. They touch on the theme lightly because they're making superhero television rather than The Wire, and don't want to scare the horses too much, but the theme is there (explicitly at one point).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I am uncertain about calling the original role "a racist stereotype." Is suggesting that an Asian man is wise and powerful a stereotype? Maybe it is. It does bear some resemblance to Master Po in the Kung Fu television series. And Charlie Chan is always the smartest guy in the room.
And Ellery Queen is always the smartest person in the room, as is Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple. He's the fucking lead character of a detective series. Of course he's the smartest person in the story. That's not racism that's detective fiction for God's sake.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Well, to be fair, there are sooooo many racist tropes in Charlie Chan that separating out the non-racist bits is a bit difficult.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, to be fair, there are sooooo many racist tropes in Charlie Chan that separating out the non-racist bits is a bit difficult.
Except the "smartest man in the room" trope which is not racist. There is no trope of "the middle-aged Chinese guy is always the smartest person in a group of mixed-race people." It just doesn't exist. Asian kids being better at math, sure. But that's not the same trope.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, to be fair, there are sooooo many racist tropes in Charlie Chan that separating out the non-racist bits is a bit difficult.
Except the "smartest man in the room" trope which is not racist. There is no trope of "the middle-aged Chinese guy is always the smartest person in a group of mixed-race people." It just doesn't exist. Asian kids being better at math, sure. But that's not the same trope.
Asian wisdom is and that is a short walk away in the film versions, despite the creator's intention.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, when I read the phrase "Black person as Columbo , my heart did a little skip and I thought,"Delroy Lindo!"
Are you confusing Columbo with Kojak? Black Columbo would be somebody like Reginald VelJohnson.
Anthony Anderson could pull off Columbo as well. VelJohnson is too old. Anderson is a bit young. Hmmm?
Delroy Lindo could do Columbo. ( And no, I haven't confused Columbo with Kodak. Hate Kojak, love Columbo.)
Delroy has a sort of paternal sage like warmth that can totally be spun into that chummy confidante thing Falk had going on. Put him in a flannel shirt with a cardigan and wire framed lenses,and I can totally see him flashing his grandkids' photos at a perp.
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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I dearly love Charlie Chan. Have, since I was a kid.
I've always seen him as wise, witty, smart, observant, shrewd, and kind. He just happened not to be entirely fluent in English.
I knew some of the other characters had racist ideas about him--AND that he sometimes played to those ideas, in order to get their guard down and find out the truth. If someone thinks you're of lower value and intelligence, they may not worry about what they say to you.
A local retro station periodically runs a couple of the films: "Charlie Chan In Egypt", with Warner Oland; and "Charlie Chan In Honolulu", with Sidney Toller, my favorite Charlie Chan. From what I've seen, CC isn't treated in a racist way by characters in either film. They may hate him for meddling in their business--but it's because he's a detective, not because he's Chinese.
(Just occurred to me: I think I've always thought of him as generally American. But he lived in Hawai'i, and all the original films were made before Hawai'i became a state in 1959. So no clue whether he was supposed to be a citizen or not--not that it matters.)
BTW, the Wikipedia article on Charlie Chan has some interesting info. The author of the original books was trying to counteract the "Yellow Peril" fear-mongering, and was inspired by a couple of detectives in Hawai'i. The earliest films had Asian actors portray Charlie, but the audiences didn't take to them. When they used a white actor, interest picked up.
From the middle or the article:
quote:
Critic Michael Brodhead argues that "Biggers's sympathetic treatment of the Charlie Chan novels convinces the reader that the author consciously and forthrightly spoke out for the Chinese – a people to be not only accepted but admired. Biggers's sympathetic treatment of the Chinese reflected and contributed to the greater acceptance of Chinese-Americans in the first third of [the twentieth] century."[48] S. T. Karnick writes in the National Review that Chan is "a brilliant detective with understandably limited facility in the English language [whose] powers of observation, logic, and personal rectitude and humility made him an exemplary, entirely honorable character."[25] Ellery Queen called Biggers's characterization of Charlie Chan "a service to humanity and to inter-racial relations."[6] Dave Kehr of The New York Times said Chan "might have been a stereotype, but he was a stereotype on the side of the angels."[17] Luke* agreed; when asked if he thought that the character was demeaning to the race, he responded, "Demeaning to the race? My God! You've got a Chinese hero!"[49] and "[W]e were making the best damn murder mysteries in Hollywood."[20][50]
*Keye Luke, who played Charlie's son (Jimmy?) in several films, and later played Master Po in "Kung Fu".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Greekness was deeply a part of the character--and the actor, Telly Savalas, whose parents were Greek immigrants. Take that away, and Kojak wouldn't be Kojak. You could do a show with a similar outline, but a lead character of a different ethnicity. But that would be a different show--and would need to focus on that lead character's ethnic roots.
4 episodes out of 125. How deep is that? If you switched Telly for his brother (who played Curly on the show) it would have been different. Same ethnic roots.
Cagney & Lacey need to be played by women because that is the premise.
Let me put it another way: Your house does not change architectural style merely because you paint the walls a different colour. Your perception of the house might change, but that is a function of your preconception.
IMO, from the admittedly few episodes I've seen, Kojak being Greek is merely paint and μπιχλιμπίδια*
*tchotchkes
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
lB--
Kojak's Greekness went much deeper than a paint job. It was part of the architecture.
FWIW, you might see it differently if you'd grown up on the entire series, plus re-runs.
{Hands lB a Tootsie Pop.}
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I dearly love Charlie Chan. Have, since I was a kid.
I've always seen him as wise, witty, smart, observant, shrewd, and kind. He just happened not to be entirely fluent in English.
[Snip]
BTW, the Wikipedia article on Charlie Chan has some interesting info. The author of the original books was trying to counteract the "Yellow Peril" fear-mongering, and was inspired by a couple of detectives in Hawai'i. The earliest films had Asian actors portray Charlie, but the audiences didn't take to them. When they used a white actor, interest picked up.
In the early films, with Asian actors (at least one of whom was Japanese IIRC) the character of Chan was very much a supporting role, only appearing near the end of the film. The actors really didn't have much of a chance to catch the public imagination.
But what I have always appreciated about the Chan films is that, while Charlie was played by a white man, without exception his children (numerous sons and at least 2 daughters) were always played by genuine Asian actors (who often would spout off some lines in Chinese--Mandarin, I assume, but I suppose it could have been Cantonese--as the white actor pretends to understand). As you can imagine, there were very few roles for Chinese actors in the 1930s and 1940s and the Chan films gave them their best exposure.
The other point is that, while Charlie spoke halting English like he was translating before speaking, his children (again without exception) all spoke perfect colloquial English--as well as Chinese.
And, yes, while the Chan films certainly had some "racist tropes" as lilB observed (heck, I think those films invented some of them!), compared to the "Yellow Peril" films (like the Fu Manchu franchise), the Chan films seemed like quite a breath of fresh air.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re CC's kids:
In "Charlie Chan In Honolulu", there's a great scene at the family breakfast table. Whole bunch of kids, sometimes raucous, and they've assimilated pretty well. (Not saying they should have, just that they did.) Mrs. Chan didn't have much screen time, but I think she was pretty middle of the road in assimilation.
Oh, and there's a list of the actors who played Chan in that Wikipedia article.
[ 11. October 2016, 01:54: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lB--
Kojak's Greekness went much deeper than a paint job. It was part of the architecture.
FWIW, you might see it differently if you'd grown up on the entire series, plus re-runs.
I'll defer to your greater knowledge of the show, whilst still mainlining that it matters in fewer situations than many people would think.
quote:
{Hands lB a Tootsie Pop.}
Many thanks. I love a good lolly.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Delroy has a sort of paternal sage like warmth that can totally be spun into that chummy confidante thing Falk had going on. Put him in a flannel shirt with a cardigan and wire framed lenses,and I can totally see him flashing his grandkids' photos at a perp.
Dude, we're both wrong! Mos Def!
I mean the guy is so disarming they should aim him at mine fields. That sunny smile, that perpetual twinkle in his eye. He's a little on the young side, but I have seen him play old before.
"Excuse me ma'am, can I ask you a question? " Can't you just hear it?
(I guess the point of this whole tangent is that a creative casting director could probably find a person of color to fit a fairly standard character template. Hollywood is just cowardly. They don't want to think outside the box because the box is safe.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And they know there's money in the box.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What I don't get is how a black Henry VI* is OK, but a white Aida isn't.
Especially given how one is a genuine historical character and the other is fiction.
Black actors have fewer role choices, to give the role of a black person to a white person appears to perpetuate that discriminatory practice.
Giving a white role to a black pesron does not have the same effect.
So the colour of an actor playing a role doesn't matter, except if it's a black role in which case it very much does matter?
Seems a bit "one rule for you, another for us" to me.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It's trying to balance out the scales. An example: many people read only books written by men. So at least one reviewer is, for a year, reading and reviewing only women authors.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
An example: many people read only books written by men. So at least one reviewer is, for a year, reading and reviewing only women authors.
And this in a world where seven of the top ten best selling books in the last fifteen years were written by a woman.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is British TV preoccupied with black and white the same way American TV is?
No. ISTM that American TV portrays a melting pot, whilst in American society the races are fairly segregated. Whereas British TV portrays a monoculture, whilst in society the races are less segregated in some ways.
It's interesting, though, that many black British actors claim that in order to be successful in their field, they have to go to the USA.
Of course, a number of white British actors also head for LA, but the issue seems to be more pressing for black actors.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
Kojak's Greekness went much deeper than a paint job. It was part of the architecture.
FWIW, you might see it differently if you'd grown up on the entire series, plus re-runs.
{Hands lB a Tootsie Pop.}
Who loves ya, baby?
quote:
originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Dude, we're both wrong! Mos Def!
Mos Def would work. Turns out, Peter Falk was only 44 when he started playing Columbo. Mos Def is 42. So, age isn't that big a deal. FWIW...Peter Falk was Jewish.
[ 11. October 2016, 14:42: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What I don't get is how a black Henry VI* is OK, but a white Aida isn't.
Especially given how one is a genuine historical character and the other is fiction.
Black actors have fewer role choices, to give the role of a black person to a white person appears to perpetuate that discriminatory practice.
Giving a white role to a black pesron does not have the same effect.
So the colour of an actor playing a role doesn't matter, except if it's a black role in which case it very much does matter?
Seems a bit "one rule for you, another for us" to me.
Plus, there are more white actors than white roles too. That's the nature of the biz. Somebody has to wait tables at high end restaurants in New York and Los Angeles.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Plus, there are more white actors than white roles too. That's the nature of the biz. Somebody has to wait tables at high end restaurants in New York and Los Angeles.
That's like saying that elite universities don't have a problem with the number of black students they admit because they reject a load of white kids too.
This isn't really the same question as the question of whether and when actors of a specific racial appearance should be used, but it becomes entangled with it because reality is messy.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So the colour of an actor playing a role doesn't matter, except if it's a black role in which case it very much does matter?
Seems a bit "one rule for you, another for us" to me.
No, it is really one rule: assist those who have been traditional excluded.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And don't forget that many a role clearly specifying a person who is not white (Othello instantly comes to mind) used to be played by a white man in blackface.
There is still a firm perception that the headliner, the star of the movie, has to be a white man. A good example would be the recent movie Moses, Prince of Egypt. The title character was played by Christian Bale. Everyone else, including all the children of Israel and Moses' family, were played by brown Middle-Eastern-looking actors. They wanted it to look right (better than Charlton Heston as Moses, right?) but they needed a star.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Plus, there are more white actors than white roles too. That's the nature of the biz. Somebody has to wait tables at high end restaurants in New York and Los Angeles.
That's like saying that elite universities don't have a problem with the number of black students they admit because they reject a load of white kids too.
This isn't really the same question as the question of whether and when actors of a specific racial appearance should be used, but it becomes entangled with it because reality is messy.
Yeah and I'm OK with saying that.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yeah and I'm OK with saying that.
OK, let's break this down. Begin with the assumption that natural ability at X doesn't correlate with skin tone (whether X is acting, mathematics, or whatever).
Now look at your highly-selective set of X-doers (Holywood movies, big-name universities, whatever - all things that get lots of applicants, but most are rejected.)
If our assumption holds, then you should expect to select actors, undergraduate mathematicians, or whatever else, with racial characteristics that resemble the wider population. There will be statistical fluctuations, but that is what you expect.
When you discover that, in fact, you're not hiring black actors, or admitting black mathematicians, in anything like the numbers that the naive expectation would predict, then you have two possibilities.
Either black people suck at acting, or math (ie. our assumption was false) or there's racial bias going on.
Now, in itself, that doesn't tell you where the racial bias is - it's possible that your admissions process is fine, and all the potential black mathematicians are being diverted elsewhere in middle school.
But it tells you that you have a problem somewhere, and you can't pretend it's not there by saying "but we rejected several talented white men, so we can't have racial bias."
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
minor spoiler alert, at some point the main white dude will be in a relationship with a black character.
Without knowing the show, isn't that the likely explanation ?
That the production team thought that the important relationship later in the series would be seen in a subtly different light if there's a significant cross-racial relationship in episode 1 ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Following Learning Cnight's lead:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And they know there's money in the box.
If you have a bunch of trees in an orchard, and if you only feed and water one, that will be the one that produces.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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