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Source: (consider it) Thread: To Halloween or not to Halloween?
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I know from one of those regional dialect quizzes that the night before Halloween is still (apparently) called "Mischief Night" in New Jersey and Philly, and is set aside by teenagers as a night for egging and TPing houses. So maybe the mischief part of the holiday just runs strong in that part of the world?

Yes, that was true in my childhood. It went out of style in the 1970s.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Gramps49
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The information I used came from the History Channel. But my point remains: the day of the dead is found in all cultures. It is not a "Christian" festival. All Saints Day is the Christian festival. Halloween literally means All Hallows Evening. Depending on the culture you come from All Saints Day starts at Sundown.

You have something similar with Christmas. For Germanic cultures, Christmas starts at Sundown, the 24th of December.

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Gwai
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I've been hired to fact-check material from the history channel. Don't believe everything you hear.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I've been hired to fact-check material from the history channel. Don't believe everything you hear.

Will you be fact-checking Ancient Aliens? That will keep you gainfully employed for some time. [Big Grin]
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Yes, God. Hold our sister Gwai up, she does righteous work. [Overused]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Who was it who said that there's no harm in telling kidz about witches and demons, as long as they're also told that witches and demons can be defeated (or words to that effect)?

Ian J.

I think GK Chesterton (or George MacDonald?) said something to the effect of "Fairy stories don't tell children that monsters exist--they already know that. Fairy stories tell them how monsters can be defeated."

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

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Posted by Prestor John:
quote:

Will you be fact-checking Ancient Aliens? That will keep you gainfully employed for some time.

You got there before me [Big Grin]

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Boogie

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I'm 'bah humbug' about the whole thing. But, when my kids were small we simply talked of ghosts and demons as any other fantasy character - which is what they are.

Luckily all the young kids in our area are Muslims and don't seem to bother with haloween.

I dislike horror films and books because I'm a big softy.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Graven Image
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Loved Halloween as a child, we often got home baked cookies, candy apples, and popcorn balls from our neighbors. One set of parents usually went with us but stayed in the background. Where we live the local merchants open downtown for several hours and have someone out front with treats. We do not have anyone come to our house because it is on a steep hill. On the flat area of our neighborhood they close the street for an hour so the kids will be safe. [Devil]
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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Luckily all the young kids in our area are Muslims and don't seem to bother with haloween.

I have always heard that trick-or-treating is one of the first bits of American culture which immigrant children adopt. Free candy is enough for most kids to be all over it.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Gramps49
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I am working part time at a Big Box that has a very large Halloween section. I have been zoning that section for the last week.

We have a large international student population (about 13% of the community).

Of the international families, I have noticed the Chinese have taken quite an interest in Halloween.

Among the Muslims it seems that if the family appears more secular, they seem to be perusing the section too.

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Prester John
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Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.
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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Luckily all the young kids in our area are Muslims and don't seem to bother with haloween.

I wonder if that's because (some) Muslims believe they shouldn't make/have images of any living thing? So maybe a mask, jack-o-lantern, etc. would be forbidden?

Of course, many Halloween images are of the undead, not the living, so... [Biased]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Erroneous Monk
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My (probably terribly unsound) Catholic position is that there's nothing much wrong with having a night in honour of the unrestful dead before we spend the next 30 days praying for them to rest in peace.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Anyuta
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I love Haloween. It's always been one of my favorites. Dressing up, being out at night without parents (as was the way back in my day), candy, decorating the house, getting scared in a fun way.. I'm still a big fan, and am sorry that due to the way my house is situated, we don't get many trick or treaters. Not enough to really justify sitting in the family room waiting for the few who do stop by.

In terms of my faith, I don't really see any relevance. There is zero religious aspect to the way I celebrate the day. It isn't even "all saints" eve in my tradition. It's just a day of fun. That some of the fun involves scary images is no different from watching a scary movie (which I actually don't like), and that somewhere some Pagans or even Satanists might be using that day to celebrate something non (or un-) Christian is none of my business. I'm sure there are many days when the same is true. That there was a Pagan celebration from which Halloween sprung is also no big deal: same holds for many other holidays, Christmas in particular.

This year I'll be in Guatemala on "The Day of the Dead" (their version of Halloween). I"ll be on a sibling vacation with my brother and sister (a first for us). We will be attending the "Giant Kite Festival" that occurs on Nov. 1. People in all towns fly kites and visit cemeteries on that day, honoring their departed loved ones. but in several towns they take this to another level, building HUGE, beautiful kites. I really like the idea of honoring your ancestors, and the thought of flying a kite up to "heaven" as part of that appeals to me as well (as a symbol, of course). I'm very much looking forward to it.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.

However, when I lived in a community of mostly recent Chinese immigrants, explaining Halloween was a challenge-- mostly because it happened at the moment I was standing in their doorway with my 4 year old, trying to convince them that "I know I'm a random stranger, but my son is dressed like a pirate so you give him candy."

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.

However, when I lived in a community of mostly recent Chinese immigrants, explaining Halloween was a challenge-- mostly because it happened at the moment I was standing in their doorway with my 4 year old, trying to convince them that "I know I'm a random stranger, but my son is dressed like a pirate so you give him candy."
My work around is to visit only those houses that are decked out appropriately. I find if they have children/grandchildren in school then they seem very eager to go along.
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justlooking
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quote:
I know from one of those regional dialect quizzes that the night before Halloween is still (apparently) called "Mischief Night" in New Jersey and Philly, and is set aside by teenagers as a night for egging and TPing houses. So maybe the mischief part of the holiday just runs strong in that part of the world?
I remember 'Mischief Night' as November 4th - the night before Guy Fawkes Night' or 'Bonfire Night'. It refers to the 'mischief' of the plotters as they made their arrangements to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

Halloween wasn't celebrated much in the North of England in the 1950's, probably because Bonfire Night was the big event. However I do remember making witches' hats and other spooky decorations at junior school - a CofE school.

AFAIK the American idea of Halloween developed from Irish immigrants who, being Catholic, wouldn't have celebrated Guy Fawkes Night.

These days, what with Health&Safety and the price of fireworks having taken the edge off Bonfire Night, I can see the appeal of Halloween for children. It's fun. Children have a right to have fun.

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justlooking
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sorry - didn't attribute above quote - it's from Og, King of Bashan
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Penny S
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My local big mall has an entire shop dedicated to the sale of Halloween merchandise.
Though not tin baths for apple bobbing, or washing lines to hang buns for trying to eat with hands behind the back.

It will probably become an Xmas shop next week.

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Bishops Finger
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My local Co-Op is already selling Christmas stuff, virtually alongside the Halloween junk.

[Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Penny S
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Yup. And Waitrose.
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Eutychus
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hosting/

Public Service Announcement

If this thread turns into a whinge about how early people have Christmas decorations out or the like, it's going to die a horrible death. Posters are invited to study the terms of the OP.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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The 'reformed' churches should embrace it cognitively as part of the possibly distinctly Christian - not pagan Samhain - tradition Allhallowtide, I don't know what the problem is. Mocking death and other evil?

Xmas has been going the inevitable cultural, solstitial way from whence it came for centuries, encouraged by Henry VIII and Cromwell, but still survives with Advent. The church used to be brilliant at redeeming these celebrations.

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Love wins

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Martin:
quote:

The church used to be brilliant at redeeming these celebrations.

Today the church collapses under the weight of it's own lazy assed negativity and outrage. It rarely offers anything creative and constructive these days. All Hallowes Eve is a prime example of the church even getting outraged at itself. It's like its eating itself and loving it.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Odds Bodkin
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The problems with Halloween (not Samhain, different issue) are pretty much the same as the ones with Christmas, in that they are both a festival dominated by the loud and the greedy.

Done well, both are times of quiet family cosiness; one with added ghost stories whilst the other has the Christmas story...although ghost stories are part of both traditions in many places.

Done badly, both are times of cacophonous, brash, self-indulgent, idiocy; each with the usual naff and gross offerings from Holywood.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.

The vast majority of my trick & treaters are Chinese and Vietnamese (an element in the demographics of my barrio)-- I do not know if the Chinese are among the members of the two substantial Chinese evangelical congregations in my area (the small Anglican one seems to be smaller than ever now that they have lost their priest).

I have just surveilled the internet and find little reference to Monday night commemorations of the vigil of All Saints in local churches, but perhaps some of that is transferred to the Sunday preceding, much like the (somewhat orgiastic) Hallowe'en parties of my younger friends have been transferred to the previous Saturday. I gather that we will have vespers at the Cathedral of the Pantocrator, but there are no Monday services at Our Lady Joy of All Who Procrastinate so far scheduled, all very moot as I will be in a train coming back from Toronto. The Dominican university chapel up the hill will have vespers (the only place in Ottawa for RC vespers AFAIK) but it will likely only have the usual group of intense doctoral students.

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