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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Trajectory and Sexual Morality
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm pretty sure we had all these arguments out with our erstwhile shipmate IngoB. There's probably a thread in the archives on it.
All that happened is exactly what's happening here: if it's not PIV with the possibility of pregnancy, it's a sin. If that's what OB believes, then there'll be no arguing with him. Dogma trumps common sense, compassion, and the real, complicated world we - well, most of us - find ourselves living in.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
How about a very pious chappie asks his wife if it's her fertile time, to which she replies "Yes". Then proceeds to ask if they can have sexual intercourse -- "yes".
But Hey Ho, some weeks later it becomes apparent the poor old tadpole failed to do the biz.......
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) Wanker
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
How about an elderly married couple where the woman is post menopause and no longer fertile. Are they no longer supposed to have sex? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
p in c in v is masturbation according to o b as is p in v on p
Brevity, when it reaches the point of incomprehensibility or ambiguity, is neither the soul of wit, nor good posting manners.
/hosting
I had to read it three times before I got it, but it did make it a good bit funnier than it would have been all typed out in words...
In case of doubt, all please note:
Purgatory is not anybody's private playground where they can amuse themselves setting little word-puzzles for everybody else.
Style and wit are appreciated, but not unintelligibility.
And if you want to dispute a host ruling, do so in the Styx.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Odds Bodkin
Apprentice
# 18663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
You can't receive masturbation from someone else. Masturbation is something you do to yourself. To classify p in v sex as somehow special and different from other forms of sexual activity is one thing. To classify all others as specifically masturbation is absurd.
You've never heard of mutual masturbation?
I find that hard to believe, given that the internet is full of examples of it...
[ 28. October 2016, 08:05: Message edited by: Odds Bodkin ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'll take your word for it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm pretty sure we had all these arguments out with our erstwhile shipmate IngoB. There's probably a thread in the archives on it.
All that happened is exactly what's happening here: if it's not PIV with the possibility of pregnancy, it's a sin. If that's what OB believes, then there'll be no arguing with him. Dogma trumps common sense, compassion, and the real, complicated world we - well, most of us - find ourselves living in.
I don't think it's dogma. I think it's an excuse to behave badly.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm pretty sure we had all these arguments out with our erstwhile shipmate IngoB. There's probably a thread in the archives on it.
All that happened is exactly what's happening here: if it's not PIV with the possibility of pregnancy, it's a sin. If that's what OB believes, then there'll be no arguing with him. Dogma trumps common sense, compassion, and the real, complicated world we - well, most of us - find ourselves living in.
Yes, more fallacious appeals to nature, dressed up with sprinkles.
You can see this in the weasel words 'fundamental function of the sexual organs', which as others have said, is empty reasoning. It's conflating function with purpose, but nature doesn't have goals or destinations. Gravity is a fundamental force, but nature doesn't really object if you take to the skies. Nature doesn't object if you fall down, actually.
Why not just say, 'God creates the sex organs, blah blah blah'? I suppose some natural law theorists try to take God out of the equation, to make it look respectable!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmm. To be inclusive I have to exclude ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I don't think that's fair Boogie. Those enslaved by the tyranny of dogma cannot help it. And they can't be reasoned out of it; they are not open to reason. I wasn't. Not for 30 years.
My church is homophobic, islamophobic, teaches against divorce and remarriage to an adult congregation that is at least half divorced and remarried, including serially and to people in the same congregation; and always will be until it's no longer economically sustainable. Which will be a longer sunset than mine due to the collapse to the centre, students, particularly foreign ones (African and Chinese). The little parochial village church was far more subtle. All, and that's all, of the non-Established churches I know in and in contact from Leicester (bar Oasis of course) are far worse.
They can't help it at all. They can't be led out of it. They have to be included by those of us who think we stand. Loved regardless, without hope. Lest we fall.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
So Turing was driven to the grave by homophobes, but they can't help it? I don't think that degree of pessimism and stasis is warranted, since Turing is now pardoned. My lifetime has seen a huge change in relation to gays, and it wasn't caused by people saying 'they can't help it' of the homophobes.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No they couldn't q. And they can't now. They are being left behind by social evolution enshrined in Western law now, still a minority influence globally and not supreme even in the West; the poor, the emotionally stunted, you will always have with you. In Russia, the Ukraine (one thing they unite on like No'rn Ireland). In Islam. In Christian conservatives and traditionalists. Poor Alan Turing was a horribly 'necessary' martyr. There are no short cuts. Every cul-de-sac has to be explored at vast cost in suffering. With globalization expect MORE.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
No they couldn't q. And they can't now. They are being left behind by social evolution enshrined in Western law now, still a minority influence globally and not supreme even in the West; the poor, the emotionally stunted, you will always have with you. In Russia, the Ukraine (one thing they unite on like No'rn Ireland). In Islam. In Christian conservatives and traditionalists. Poor Alan Turing was a horribly 'necessary' martyr. There are no short cuts. Every cul-de-sac has to be explored at vast cost in suffering. With globalization expect MORE.
Christian masochism is alive and well. Enjoy.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Christian realism. This is the way the world is. Our privileged little bit is being subject to globalization. A blip in Islamic homophobia in the Netherlands recently. Bataclan. Nice. Trump. There will be more in Germany, Sweden. At least. Transient and cyclical phenomena. All part of assimilating the other in our heads.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. To be inclusive I have to exclude I don't think that's fair Boogie. Those enslaved by the tyranny of dogma cannot help it. And they can't be reasoned out of it; they are not open to reason. I wasn't. Not for 30 years.
I would not exclude him, he'd be welcome in my home. But I would not agree with him, never.
You changed your mind, which proves there is always hope.
My MIL was ignorantly racist. I loved her and welcomed her but never agreed with her. Every racist comment was countered with examples to show how wrong she was. I won her over. It took 10 years.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
How about an elderly married couple where the woman is post menopause and no longer fertile. Are they no longer supposed to have sex?
Absolutely they are, I was in jest mode with my post, (if yours was in response). Whatsmore with age comes wisdom. The wisdom to discover that sexual intercourse, good as it is, by no means represents the be all and end all of intimacy.
It has long baffled me as to why the Church deemed it necessary to instruct people so implicitly about their private lives. Could it have been in response to witnessing the greatest and most powerful Empire in history fall apart amidst sexual excess and debauchery?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
How about an elderly married couple where the woman is post menopause and no longer fertile. Are they no longer supposed to have sex?
Absolutely they are, I was in jest mode with my post, (if yours was in response). Whatsmore with age comes wisdom. The wisdom to discover that sexual intercourse, good as it is, by no means represents the be all and end all of intimacy.
It has long baffled me as to why the Church deemed it necessary to instruct people so implicitly about their private lives. Could it have been in response to witnessing the greatest and most powerful Empire in history fall apart amidst sexual excess and debauchery?
One feminist argument is that the patriarchal system (of which the church has been an important part), was determined to copyright reproduction, children and the family as its own. This found its way into natural law, which seeks to prove that non-procreation is not just sinful, but against nature.
I'm not suggesting this is the only cause.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Yes, that is an interesting take Quetzal..
Christianity's near obsession with sex, or the repression of it, (women's sex drive being top of it's list) , does smack quite alot of patriarchal control.
One of my theories is that the maintaining of population was vital in the face of pestilence diminishing numbers and the risk of being overrun by invading armies. So maybe the 'every sperm is sacred' came from that?
Strikes as odd that ancient Egyptian civilisation knew about contraception in terms of preventing sperm coming out the willy during intercourse, yet this knowledge was either lost or deliberately abandoned when organised Religion grew into this massive Big Brother in the bedroom-- Thing
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
You've never heard of mutual masturbation?
I find that hard to believe, given that the internet is full of examples of it...
"Mutual masturbation" is not "masturbation", that's why it specifies "mutual", to indicate the difference.
What about my other question, about the elderly couple? Are they supposed to give up sex when the woman becomes post menopausal?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And when does the penis appendage's manual clitoral stimulation become masturbation by proxy? When it results in female orgasm?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
One of my theories is that the maintaining of population was vital in the face of pestilence diminishing numbers and the risk of being overrun by invading armies.
It is much simpler than that. The easiest way to gain new members is to breed them. Your first religion will be that of your parents. We identify with our parents' beliefs even when we reject them. That is why many people mark Christian and CofE when they are more honestly agnostic.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why not just say, 'God creates the sex organs, blah blah blah'? I suppose some natural law theorists try to take God out of the equation, to make it look respectable!
I was reading the quotes file backwards last night, and some of our most genius quotes come from the last go round we had with Ingob. Indeed, we have discussed the hell out of it.
One thing that hadn't come up in that round, though, was the Divine Mystery of the Clitorus" which in my mind is the logical answer to the form- follows- function argument. Fine, God creates the sex organs, blah, blah blah. Now look at how they have been created.
As pointed out, the clitorus grows more sensitive as fertility decreases.
The male G- spot is located in the anus.
For most women, the clitorus is positioned in a location that avoids penile friction. Foreplay is not an extra for female orgasm, it is a necessity.
For someone who is such a strict functionalist, God is making some really weird design decisions.
Unless! Sex play is part of the Divine plan. In which case anybody else's opinion of the matter amounts to jack shit.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The WHAT?!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Christianity's near obsession with sex, or the repression of it, (women's sex drive being top of it's list) , does smack quite alot of patriarchal control.
One of my theories is that the maintaining of population was vital in the face of pestilence diminishing numbers and the risk of being overrun by invading armies. So maybe the 'every sperm is sacred' came from that?
Strikes as odd that ancient Egyptian civilisation knew about contraception in terms of preventing sperm coming out the willy during intercourse, yet this knowledge was either lost or deliberately abandoned when organised Religion grew into this massive Big Brother in the bedroom-- Thing
Population growth has been very slow for most of human history, and human existence precarious, so fears of annihilation might have been high in very many societies at various times.
Nevertheless, I've often wondered why contraception wasn't more widely available in throughout history. But I don't think this was an exclusively Christian lack. People in a number of non-Christian early societies were willing to have unprotected penetrative sex - but they were also willing to leave unwanted babies to die, which the early Christians didn't want to do.
Without widespread access to or knowledge about contraception abstinence outside marriage wasn't a way to repress women; in practical terms it was surely more like a form of protection for women. But this isn't to deny that female sexuality was often problematic to men. Not necessarily, though; some early modern European commentators apparently believed that the female orgasm was essential to conception, and hence valuable if you wanted to have a baby.
Myself, I have a feeling that the appeal of the ascetic life must in some cases (along with other very important factors, obviously) have been due to disgust and horror regarding the high rates of death in childbirth. It's clear that sex hasn't always been carefree fun, even if you remove the sexual anxieties of monotheism.
[ 28. October 2016, 23:33: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Some day I'd be interested to see exactly when the God-as-strict-functionalist idea came in. I have a sneaking suspicion it was a spillover from the whole survival-of-the-fittest meme, the one that grimly assures us that animals never do a damn thing for fun but only to survive. (Yes, it's hyperbole, but think of the last twenty nature documentaries you saw, and tell me what fills up the last five minutes? Uh huh.) And then there's Freud et co., where every freaking dream and idle thought has Deep.Psychological.Meaning.
It's weird, this whole cultural urge to assign a (usually) grim utility to every freaking thing. As if art did not exist, or fun, or simple messing around.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I think I disagree LC. It, IMO, is a reaction to evolution by religious groups that no longer debate evolution but still want to control what is acceptable.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm speaking in historical terms. There appears to be a Zeitgeist that comes in at a particular point in history and suddenly everything (religion, animals, etc.) are all about grim function-only. Even movements as seemingly opposite as the RC church and Darwinism can share some elements of the Zeitgeist. But not being a trained historian, I cannot be sure exactly when this theme started showing up in the various components of western cultures. I don't think it's widespread before the Renaissance, though. Probably not during the Renaissance either, but I'd want to ask someone who's a real historian, unlike me, who studied it primarily as an adjunct to English and biblical/ecclesiastical studies.
[ 29. October 2016, 04:37: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm speaking in historical terms. There appears to be a Zeitgeist that comes in at a particular point in history and suddenly everything (religion, animals, etc.) are all about grim function-only. Even movements as seemingly opposite as the RC church and Darwinism can share some elements of the Zeitgeist. But not being a trained historian, I cannot be sure exactly when this theme started showing up in the various components of western cultures. I don't think it's widespread before the Renaissance, though. Probably not during the Renaissance either, but I'd want to ask someone who's a real historian, unlike me, who studied it primarily as an adjunct to English and biblical/ecclesiastical studies.
Can't we refer this partly to the 'mechanical' view of the universe, which is often dated to the 17th century, e.g. Descartes, Newton, and so on? We get the notion of the clockwork universe then, I think.
But I think there are medieval precursors to this, for example, in the separation out of secondary causes, which can be studied without reference to God, (Albertus Magnus). This seems to lead forward to the famous statement of Laplace, 'I have no need of that hypothesis'.
But the notion of function is often conflated with purpose by creationists, natural law theorists, and others. I suppose it's quite normal in ordinary speech also, 'nature intends us to digest our food quite quickly', and so on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The part that is most striking to me is the sheer absence of "fun." You'd think they never saw a dog chase its own tail, or a squirrel drunk on fermented fallen fruit, or a baby laughing maniacally as it yanks on your hair. Every freaking thing has to have a species-saving purpose.
That's the kind of thing I see in those who similarly insist on making sex only about reproduction. I don't think it's so much a mechanical view of creation/evolution as it's a grim and joyless view.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The notion of creation and therefore creator as clock and all the nonsense about the future already having happened goes back to C2nd Ptolemy at least.
I'd agree that reductionist functionalism surfaces with C17th science which picked up on the 2000 year older thinking of Aristotle and his predecessors.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Martin60 wrote: quote:
I'd agree that reductionist functionalism surfaces with C17th science which picked up on the 2000 year older thinking of Aristotle and his predecessors.
Yes, it became clear around then, but I think its proximate cause was more the extreme logicality of the scholastic era preceding them. Aristotle fed into that right enough, but it needed the sort of filtering that this logical chain sort of argumentation provided.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
(oh - PS -
quote:
But I think there are medieval precursors to this, for example, in the separation out of secondary causes, which can be studied without reference to God, (Albertus Magnus). This seems to lead forward to the famous statement of Laplace, 'I have no need of that hypothesis'.
Not apropos anything particularly relevant, but Laplace was separating out the need for tertiary causes evinced in Newtonian celestial mechanics. It wasn't a comment on primary causes.)
[ 30. October 2016, 20:58: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My superficiality knows no bounds.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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