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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: University serves Halal meat in canteen
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
* for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.
To my knowledge, pacificism within Christianity as practiced institutionally is based not on the fallneness arguement, but on a careful reading of the gospels and the prophets. That is certainly the basis for its practice and/or doctrine as found within Anabaptist groups.
The fallenness discussion you mention sounds like something I've heard of in late 1800's systemic theology as practiced by individuals within Anglicanism, Presbyterianism and Methodism. It would be a personal systemic theology as against a doctrinal one.
I would be curious to know of any group who had a doctrinal statement of pacifism based solely on the fallenness of the world.
[ 22. October 2016, 15:42: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
<snip>
And the whole topic of discrimination as such in my opinion gets very confusing [eta while still being important and very real]
[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]
There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Og
Let me be clear, I am not saying that form does not exist but that it is not the only form and the form that seeks to be about the New Creation exists as well.
In other words, you have assumed a monolith where there is diversity. Just as vegetarianism may be adopted for a wide range of reasons. If you want me to list for vegetarianism then at present as well as the witness stated other reasons include:
- animal welfare
- distaste of the idea of eating animals
- aesthetic discipline
- social justice
- dietary concerns
- environmental concerns
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Makes me wonder if ritual slaughter religions may hunt. How does one shoot a deer for food. FWIW, thanking the animal for giving itself up for food is part of some indigenous cultures. It's prayer.
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.
Again that's looking at the consumers.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.
Again that's looking at the consumers.
No it flippin' doesn't. Jews and Muslims can buy from Christian butchers. Where is the discrimination?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]
I hung out with the ChaBaD Chassidim for about 5 years. If I recall correctly, if it has scales and fins, it's halachah.
So shellfish and eels are right out. So are catfish.
Three of my favorites right there. I guess it was just another reason why I could never have made an Orthodox conversion.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.
Again that's looking at the consumers.
No it flippin' doesn't. Jews and Muslims can buy from Christian butchers. Where is the discrimination?
Jewish customer, Muslim customer, agnostic customer, pastafarian customer are all customers. They BUY. Both sets of people you listed as counter examples are in this set.
Christian butcher, Muslim butcher, Pastafarian Butcher, are suppliers, they SELL. The OP postulated them.
Tesco, Sainsbury's, Carrymore, are the middle men, they BUY from the supplier (in theory the Christian Butcher, the Jewish Butcher, the Muslim Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher) and SELL to the consumer (in theory the Christian customer, the Jewish customer, the Muslim customer, the ...).
However if Tesco just serve arbitrary meat they buy from (in theory the Christian Butcher, the Muslim Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher) but only sell to the Christian, agnostic, and pastafarian customers. Which is a bit unfair on the Muslim and Jewish customer, but there's ways round it (such as clear labeling) and they can always go elsewhere [at the moment]. Which would be what your second comment would have dealt with had it come up. And agree, there would be no intentional/unreasonable discrimination (at least probably, you could possibly consider the effects of food deserts and the like [so personally I'd want to do a bit more thinking before quite agreeing, but they weren't under discussion])
However, the other approach is for Tesco to buy Halah (or equiv Kosher), at which point they can sell to the Christian, Islamic, agnostic, and pastafarian customers.
Which your first comment says, that you would be happy to be a customer, which is the assumption they've made. This time, absolutely no discrimination against any of the customers. However the original point wasn't about the customer
However now they are not buying from the Christian Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher, etc..., but only from the Muslim Butcher.
That is, subject all the qualifications that were made from Gramps original post, and my attempts to clarify my understanding of it, The Christian Butcher (or rather the Non-Muslim Butcher) is being discriminated against.
I'm not sure how it works with direct customer/supplier contact, but in large influence over a nations suppliers..
And it clearly would be discrimination if even the corner shop only hired whites so they could serve to the Klan more easily.
Like I implied earlier, it's not exactly the most urgent case, and I guess the existence of Hooter's shows even corporations can discriminate legally. And you've made a bit of a mountain of a molehill of a very minor point, it really wouldn't be something that fussed me, if you hadn't been turning the wrong cards over.
[ 22. October 2016, 17:30: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.
That's as sweet a dodge as we've seen here in a long time. Jay-Emm produced a very thoughtful, well-reasoned response using lots of examples. And this is the best you can come up with?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.
That's as sweet a dodge as we've seen here in a long time. Jay-Emm produced a very thoughtful, well-reasoned response using lots of examples. And this is the best you can come up with?
We were at cross purposes. It's not like I've not been the other side before.
Cage wasn't rattled, but by that point struggling.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.
That's as sweet a dodge as we've seen here in a long time. Jay-Emm produced a very thoughtful, well-reasoned response using lots of examples. And this is the best you can come up with?
We were at cross purposes. It's not like I've not been the other side before.
Cage wasn't rattled, but by that point struggling.
Jay-Emm, you were quite right.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
However, the other approach is for Tesco to buy Halah (or equiv Kosher), at which point they can sell to the Christian, Islamic, agnostic, and pastafarian customers.
Which your first comment says, that you would be happy to be a customer, which is the assumption they've made. This time, absolutely no discrimination against any of the customers. However the original point wasn't about the customer
However now they are not buying from the Christian Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher, etc..., but only from the Muslim Butcher.
That is, subject all the qualifications that were made from Gramps original post, and my attempts to clarify my understanding of it, The Christian Butcher (or rather the Non-Muslim Butcher) is being discriminated against.
That's not discrimination, or at least not in the negative sense that you're implying. There's no requirement for supermarkets to source their produce from a variety of suppliers - they are free to choose the best supplier for their business needs. If they can sell meat from one supplier to anyone but from another supplier only to some people then of course they're going to choose the former.
Of course, anyone who feels strongly about the matter is free to buy their meat from any butcher that meets their standards. And if enough of them do so then it might even change the business decision described at the end of the previous paragraph.
The ongoing popularity of bacon suggests that non-halal/kosher butchers aren't going to disappear any time soon.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I would like to have the choice. Clear labelling would help, but I see that calls for the government to discuss this have had nowhere near enough support for it to be considered an important issue.
Does this indicate fear - perhaps of being accused of racism or fanaticism - or simply a lack of interest?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
My money's on lack of interest. Most people just don't care how their meat is killed.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I would like to have the choice. Clear labelling would help, but I see that calls for the government to discuss this have had nowhere near enough support for it to be considered an important issue.
Does this indicate fear - perhaps of being accused of racism or fanaticism - or simply a lack of interest?
To be honest, I suspect the real answer is that people are not terribly concerned about animal welfare. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Halal butchery it's hardly the only bad thing that happens to animals in the food chain.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Re labelling: bottles of wine come variously embroidered with the level of alcohol, presence of sulphites, recommended daily intakes, warnings against ingesting while pregnant or operating heavy machinery, and various other informational and hortatory tidbits. Have any of them ever stayed my hand from a glass? Not really.
I'm not against such labelling: but, like previous posters, I suspect more people are influenced by appetite than by health or conscience.
[ 24. October 2016, 15:50: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
... The rule if you wish to satisfy all religious groups is vegetarian and preferably vegan. The vegan is not simply for Rastafarians but has a long history of adoption by a minority of Christians within Protestantism*.
Jengie
* for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. ...
Jengie, I appreciate it's some days ago now, but coming back to this, I find it quite strange.
It seems to negate what I would regard as the much more fundamental point that Jesus made at Mk 7:19 that all foods are clean. So we can neither be saved nor make ourselves either more holy or less so by eating some foods or cutting some other foods out of our diet.
Most Christians are so used to this that they no longer appreciate how revolutionary a step that is in the history of world religions.
I am very suspicious that those sort of ideas are starting to creep back into public consciousness when I hear some of the arguments some vegetarians and vegans put forward for their decisions. Under modern conditions, I would say that it is quite an important Christian witness to say that whatever else the advocates of any permanent diet may claim for it, it does not, and cannot, make its adherents morally, ethically or spiritually better.
In addition to not being paraded in front of other people, though fasting is commended, it also normally supposed to be temporary.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My money's on lack of interest. Most people just don't care how their meat is killed.
The parallel argument is made in North America about GMO foods. The industry says people don't care if it is GMO. However, there is strong opinion (is there any data?) that if labelled, people choose non-GMO.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Let me just say, when I posted that Halal implies that the animal was butchered by a Muslim butcher and then made the somewhat snarky--but misinterpreted--comment that this is discrimination, I was referring to the original post which asked if using Halal was discriminatory .
In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.
The more important aspect is that the animal be grass fed and not ingest any alcoholic product.
Myself, I also prefer grass fed animals.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I seem to remember some heated statements (don't know where, but believe the source was American - not that that is a criticism of a nation, merely an attempt to identify the source) that being vegetarian was an indicator of definitely not being a Christian. The two were mutually exclusive.
Since the heated statements - possibly on the dead BBC boards - were by people associated with creationism and other dead horsey subjects, I was never inclined to take them as Gospel.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Let me just say, when I posted that Halal implies that the animal was butchered by a Muslim butcher and then made the somewhat snarky--but misinterpreted--comment that this is discrimination, I was referring to the original post which asked if using Halal was discriminatory .
In the UK Halal and Kosher have very specific meanings about who is involved in the kill and how they've done it.
quote:
In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.
Well I think the problem here is this: it depends. When I had this discussion with a group of British Muslims ranging from the very observant to the very secular, I understandably got a range of answers.
At one extreme someone said that they wouldn't buy meat from a supermarket because they won't eat pre-stunned meat. Others said that they'd automatically choose Halal but that if it wasn't available then Kosher was also perfectly acceptable. Others said that they weren't bothered at all.
And, I suppose, whilst I can see that some people who eat meat also happen to have an ethical or religious view against Halal or Kosher meat, those people seem to be in a small minority. So it feels like a university or producer in an area with a lot of Muslims and a lot of people who aren't bothered may well chose to only sell Halal. I note, for example, that many kebab shops seem to sell exclusively Halal meat.
Of course, that's not going to be good enough for some Christians and presumably some observant Jews. Although one might think that the latter are going to have an issue eating in any establishment that only has one kitchen.
So I suppose it comes down to buyer beware - given that the majority aren't bothered, that a significant minority are interested in buying Halal and only a small minority want to avoid it, then in some ways it feels a bit unreasonable to cater for them.
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arse
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.
The more important aspect is that the animal be grass fed and not ingest any alcoholic product.
That can't be right. It is important that the animal wasn't stunned as part of the slaughter.
[ 24. October 2016, 19:08: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.
The more important aspect is that the animal be grass fed and not ingest any alcoholic product.
That can't be right. It is important that the animal wasn't stunned as part of the slaughter.
That is debated within the Islamic world. The important thing is that the method of stunning not kill the animal. For this reason, some groups will prohibit stunning. It is not important that the animal suffer, only that it not die before exsanguination.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]
I hung out with the ChaBaD Chassidim for about 5 years. If I recall correctly, if it has scales and fins, it's halachah.
So shellfish and eels are right out. So are catfish.
Three of my favorites right there. I guess it was just another reason why I could never have made an Orthodox conversion.
AFF
Are you sure about the scales. Fish like salmon are OK, and salmon has scales. Or maybe I misunderstand here. Does "halachah" mean that it's allowed, as salmon have both scales and fins?
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Yes, "halachah" means it is allowed. "Tref" means it is not allowed.
[ 25. October 2016, 21:55: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]
I hung out with the ChaBaD Chassidim for about 5 years. If I recall correctly, if it has scales and fins, it's halachah.
So shellfish and eels are right out. So are catfish.
Three of my favorites right there. I guess it was just another reason why I could never have made an Orthodox conversion.
AFF
Are you sure about the scales. Fish like salmon are OK, and salmon has scales. Or maybe I misunderstand here. Does "halachah" mean that it's allowed, as salmon have both scales and fins?
It was more the ritual elements I was wondering at. At the time was vaguely wondering if you could have something that was simultaneously fully Kosher, fully Halal and fully secular in a more positive way than just having vegetables.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I have a friend whose brother works at one of the local (Ottawa) supermarket chains as a butcher, and he informs us that there are many non-religious customers who prefer to buy kosher and halal meat as they believe that the animals are raised and processed in a more humane manner--he is not certain that they are really well-versed in the rules of halalit and kashruth, but says that this belief is widespread through Canada as well as the US.
I recall reading in the NY Times that many of the workers in midwestern (US) abbatoirs are Muslim, primarily as these are jobs which newly-arrived immigrants take.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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