|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Religious Experience
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Your sig quote is quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Is it enough to take part? Must I have a religious experience beyond saying the prayers and involving myself in the liturgy and taking communion. Can I please avoid all the experience parts of it? No Really Big Feelings, no transcendent spiritual orgasms, just being there, and trying in a stupidly incompetent way to follow the Jesus teachings? Is it enough?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Why not? I don't see anything in Scripture that says "Thou shalt have shivery feelings and a Really Good Testimony Story."
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Exactly!
And I don't think it is 'second rate'. It was realizing this that let us continue and not walk away.
I get the excitement of these experiences, but we mustn't ever replace the simple core, the foundation of Jesus-following with anything.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Ah well, everybody thinks their own way is the best. Like the time I got thrown out of a Korean Bible study for not having the proper spiritual gift. They wanted speaking in tongues, and nothing else--even healing--would do. I was quite chuffed to be thrown out of a Bible study. It made me feel Big and Bad. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Can I please avoid all the experience parts of it? No Really Big Feelings, no transcendent spiritual orgasms, just being there, and trying in a stupidly incompetent way to follow the Jesus teachings? Is it enough?
I'm in no better position than anyone else here to tell you what is "enough". But since you address me personally, as far as I'm concerned, quote:
While some people clearly have subjective religious experiences that make a profound impact on them, I'm not sure mind-blowing experiences are the norm or even a legitimate expectation.
However, quote:
When Paul says "I know whom I have believed", I don't think he's talking about mere head knowledge.
This resonates with me. It quote:
may well not revolve around the sort of thing we mostly seem to mean by "religious experience", but I think it does involve a subjective sense of "knowing" that goes beyond logic and reasoning alone
As explained earlier, my understanding of the New Covenant is that it is a work of the Holy Spirit in the believer.
(I do not base this view on a single verse, as was asserted earlier, but on a much broader reading of the NT. This is of course open to challenge, but nobody's actually challenged it yet here).
How that translates into feelings or any degree of experience clearly varies widely between believers, but I (personally!) find it hard to understand how, if the person of the Holy Spirit is the modus operandi of the New Covenant, this could not involve something beyond mere intellectual assent or obedience based solely on the law.
I am not into intense spiritual experiences. But on the days when I have my greatest intellectual doubts about the whole thing, what keeps me on track is a not a series of intellectual arguments, however compelling they may be, but a sensation that to me at least makes sense in the light of Scripture passages like that quote from Paul, or where he says things like "the Spirit bears witness to my spirit that I am a child of God".
If that's "Jungian knowing", so be it. And if other believers see things differently, and make sense of their attachment to following Christ differently, that is fine as far as I'm concerned. I have been trying to share my own take and reasoning, undoubtedly clumsily, but honestly. I would just like to know their take and reasoning.
[ 06. November 2016, 05:55: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But this fact cannot be known to us in any meaningful sense if it is not felt.
When Paul says "I know whom I have believed", I don't think he's talking about mere head knowledge.
The disciples on the Emmaus road had their heads stuffed full of the Scriptures by Jesus, but what they referred back to after all was made plain was the fire burning in their hearts.
There's an experiential component to knowing this sort of "fact", one you can't prove by logic alone.
As this has been quoted from again recently, Paul had [head] knowledge of the gospel of the risen Christ whom he knew personally. It affected him deeply. What else did he know? What else could he have known? What else did he need to know? There is no need for Jungian 'knowledge' here. He'd MET the risen Christ in no uncertain terms and may have spent YEARS with Him in Arabia. What's to 'know'?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
And of course when I said 'quoted from again recently', it was you, Eutychus, quoting yourself unattributably above ...
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
|
Posted
Martin60 wrote: quote:
He'd MET the risen Christ in no uncertain terms and may have spent YEARS with Him in Arabia.
Hmm. What Paul himself talks about (not, incidentally, Luke's conversion story from the Road to Damascus) is being caught up in the Spirit into the seventh heaven [2 Cor 12:2], and then essentially he holds back from trying to define or explain or even narrate it, because he heard 'inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.' (NIV)
So where does "may have spent YEARS with Him in Arabia" come from? Yes, I know Paul says he spent years in Arabia [Gal 1:17].
It has however long seemed to me to be rather crucial that unlike the Apostles from the original Twelve, Paul did NOT 'meet' Jesus in the flesh.
--------------------
keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
He may have done, but it don't sigger-ni-fy.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Susan--
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Susan--
I'll try to find something for you. The latest I heard was on the radio, over the weekend. May be a couple of days before I have time to track it down.
Thank you, Golden Key, that would be most kind of you. It certainly sounds interesting! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Profuse apologies for the delay! Fallout from the campaign and election.
I couldn't find the radio program I mentioned, but here are some other links:
"In Awe Of Everything" (Daylight Atheism blog at Patheos).
Atheist Spirituality
"Atheists Take Old Hymns Out Of The Chapel And Into The Streets." (NPR) (That's just for fun--street choir of mostly atheists and agnostics, singing Renaissance music. Has both text and audio.)
[ 24. November 2016, 23:56: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
Golden Key
Many thanks for the links. I will follow them up later today.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
Golden Key
What interesting links - the first one in particular has been added to my 'favourites' list. I very much liked the singers too. The best part of singing part music like that is, I think, the discipline of following a line of music - wish I could still do it! I watched a few moments of the video of the 'Unbeliebable' TV programme, but I'm afraid it was too saccharine for me - especially the mention of WLC put me off straight away, even though he wasn't actually on the programme - he really sets my teeth on edge! I'll have another look at that later on.
There was mention of
The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality': Andre Comte-Sponville, . I read that with my reader a while ago and we both found it very interesting.
Thankse again, I really appreciate your help.
[ 25. November 2016, 13:07: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
