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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is there really such a thing as atheism? (I don't think so)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But religion is not fact-based theory either.
One sees the world as it is and, for some, the interpretation needs something more.
This is a subjective, I do not se how it can be quantified into a this is type of statement.
But ISTM it is in a similar category to magic in that it operates outside of the rules of the rules.
It is not necessary that the practitioners of a religion manipulate anything, just that some of their rules/beliefs do.
In other words, God = magic for all practical purposes.
For some values of God, but not for the one who thinks universes. No more than for the unthinking thing that makes universe if He doesn't exist.
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Love wins
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well if you insist on defining religion as magic, and poo-poo the words of people who actually belong to a religion, there's not much more to be said.
I am not doing what you think I am doing.
All I am saying is that religion is not objective. If you can show me how it is, I am willing to listen.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But religion is not fact-based theory either.
One sees the world as it is and, for some, the interpretation needs something more.
This is a subjective, I do not se how it can be quantified into a this is type of statement.
But ISTM it is in a similar category to magic in that it operates outside of the rules of the rules.
It is not necessary that the practitioners of a religion manipulate anything, just that some of their rules/beliefs do.
In other words, God = magic for all practical purposes.
For some values of God, but not for the one who thinks universes. No more than for the unthinking thing that makes universe if He doesn't exist.
I'm not sure what you mean. If you are trying to say that not completely understanding the universe is equal to believing in God, then I disagree.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well if you insist on defining religion as magic, and poo-poo the words of people who actually belong to a religion, there's not much more to be said.
I am not doing what you think I am doing.
All I am saying is that religion is not objective. If you can show me how it is, I am willing to listen.
So everything that's not objective is magic? This makes sense of those love songs that say oh oh oh it's magic.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well if you insist on defining religion as magic, and poo-poo the words of people who actually belong to a religion, there's not much more to be said.
I am not doing what you think I am doing.
All I am saying is that religion is not objective. If you can show me how it is, I am willing to listen.
So everything that's not objective is magic? This makes sense of those love songs that say oh oh oh it's magic.
I am not saying that. But God, as described by Christians, is extra-natural.
A lot of people I respect are Christian. Since I respect their judgement, I respect that they see/experience things that support their belief. This does not mean it is the same as objective.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I agree that one's personal internal experiences are not objective. Heck, when Paul heard Jesus saying "Why are you persecuting me you prick," the people with him heard thunder or a loud noise. So even personal EXTERNAL experiences are not objective in the sense of shareable.
And yet. And yet.
Neither are the personal experiences that go into making scientific hypotheses and observations. Every person's sense data are their own. But we talk to each other and say, "Did you see the dial go to 83? Yeah, me too." And if enough people have the same experiences, we admit there's "something there" -- something objective, if you will. And it becomes part of the scientific corpus of theory and observation.
In like manner people who have had religious experiences talk to each other and say, "Was it like thus-and-such for you? Yeah, me too." So at what point do we admit there's "something there?"
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In like manner people who have had religious experiences talk to each other and say, "Was it like thus-and-such for you? Yeah, me too." So at what point do we admit there's "something there?"
I'm not sure that we need to. Experience is a bitch, it is filtered through perception, conditioning, expectation, fear, etc.
But I do not claim to have the answers, I just get annoyed with those who do so claim.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Me too. Nobody's doing that here are they. And of course the unthinking thing, that would have to superphysically exist if God didn't, makes all theoretically possible universeS infinitely. Doh.
[ 07. November 2016, 08:59: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Who said anything about stage magic?
quote:
mag·ic
ˈmajik/
noun
the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
The Christian religion is not about influencing events by using any forces. God cannot be manipulated. There is no magic involved.
Prayer doesn't influence events ? Sacraments don't accomplish anything ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Prayer doesn't influence events ? Sacraments don't accomplish anything ?
We ask God to influence events, but God is not under our control. When prayers are answered it is by God's grace, not by our manipulation of God's power. As with the sacraments.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Spirit orthodoxly teaches, testifies, guides, speaks, enlightens, strives, commands, intercedes, calls, comforts, works (with) us ineffably. S/He doesn't find your car keys.
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Love wins
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
We don't make sacraments, God does. Our partaking of the sacraments, even the priest's hocus pocus, is less analagous to a magician than to a person turning on a spigot above a drinking glass. The water company that keeps pressure in the pipes isn't a power we turn on by magic when we open the faucet. Nor is God's power to turn bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ something we do any more to or for than go through the motions he prescribed. We hold a glass under the faucet and open the tap. That is, we bring bread and wine and pray the prayers. He provides the water, that is the mystical change in the elements.
I hope I've said this enough ways to prevent misunderstandings as to my meaning.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
The analogy that has come to me is asking someone for something. Asking someone for something isn't a technique for getting that something. It's not a means to the end of getting what you want. People can view it that way if they're sociopathic or if they're talking in the abstract in thrall to a certain view of economics or human nature. Some people can see other people as just means to their ends and interacting with them as just a techique to get what they want. But if you're not that kind of sociopath then you don't do that. Even if - especially if - you're quite certain that the other person will do what you ask because you ask.
A lot of the ways in which economics and modern philosophy talk about human nature don't recognise the distinction, which is a problem for our public life I think.
That's the difference between prayer and magic. The second is a technique for imposing your will on reality and the first is not.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The analogy that has come to me is asking someone for something. Asking someone for something isn't a technique for getting that something.
That is exactly what it is. It may not include a guarantee of receiving, but it is a method of getting.
quote:
It's not a means to the end of getting what you want. People can view it that way if they're sociopathic or if they're talking in the abstract in thrall to a certain view of economics or human nature.
No, it is reading the bible. You may assert that it is not the correct translation/intention of the words, but to say the words are not their is wrong.
quote:
Some people can see other people as just means to their ends and interacting with them as just a techique to get what they want. But if you're not that kind of sociopath then you don't do that.
Not how people work at all. If you only think of people as a means to an end, you are a sociopath. But nearly everyone thinks in these terms to some degree.
quote:
That's the difference between prayer and magic. The second is a technique for imposing your will on reality and the first is not.
It is not such a clear line. The main functional divide between magic and "true" religion is belief. Prayer to the divine for a result, whether it is expected or merely hoped, is assigning the control elsewhere. It is still an appeal to the supernatural. Or extra-natural if you prefer.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
<snip> It is still an appeal to the supernatural. Or extra-natural if you prefer.
Magic is not an appeal to the supernatural. Magic is manipulation or command of the supernatural.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The line between magic and Christian faith is that magic is in its essence an attempt to compel God/the universe/whatever into giving us what we want. Faith asks; magic says "to hell with you, I'm going to MAKE it happen."
Which is why Christianity forbids magic to believers. It's unbelievably rude if you believe in a personal God who pays attention and cares about you. As we say to children, "Don't grab; ask nicely."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
That you have to ask is a ritual to manipulate a supernatural force.
IMO, it is semantics to elevate one's own practice above others'. And I have major issues with Christian prayer as it is generally portrayed.
I sense we are merely going to disagree here.So, unless one of you has a dramatically different line of reasoning, I've no interest in continuing this tangent on this thread.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Whether you consider it dramatically different I con't know, but a key word in your post was "force." He isn't a force, he's a person; that's why it's absurd (and rude) to attempt to manipulate him. I doubt we can cojvey to you just how utterly jarring it is to me to hear prayer described as manipulation. I'd as soon call conversation with my husband that.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The analogy that has come to me is asking someone for something. Asking someone for something isn't a technique for getting that something.
That is exactly what it is. It may not include a guarantee of receiving, but it is a method of getting.
No. I am sorry, but no. Asking someone for something is not a technique. It just isn't. It's an entirely different stance. Maybe to some people there is only a difference in degree between asking, manipulating, and coercing. But the stance of technique and the stance that treats other people as people are fundamentally different. As different as the I-It / I-Thou stances that get brought up by people on these kinds of thread.
The reliability of receiving is not what makes the difference at all.
Maybe as you say we do all adopt an I-It stance towards other people to a greater or lesser extent some of the time, because we're sinners or unskilful people in the grip of samsara or whatever you prefer. But not all the time if we're at all moral.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I doubt we can convey to you just how utterly jarring it is ... to hear prayer described as manipulation. I'd as soon call conversation with my husband that.
Then again there are some who would say that all interaction with other people is, at root, manipulation. Our conceit of treating one another as subjects and not objects (as I believe Kant put it) is pretence.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That you have to ask is a ritual to manipulate a supernatural force.
IMO, it is semantics to elevate one's own practice above others'
I am imagining a book that explores the concept that asking is manipulation. Perhaps, Asking as Magic: Incantations to Get Loved Ones to Pass the Salt Every Time.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Pfui! Try something really hard, like
"Spells Guaranteed to Get Your Kids to Put Out the Garbage". Hopefully they won't involve a dozen repetitions.
[ 11. November 2016, 22:54: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That you have to ask is a ritual to manipulate a supernatural force.
IMO, it is semantics to elevate one's own practice above others'
I am imagining a book that explores the concept that asking is manipulation. [/i]
Take manipulating out of it, then. It is still a ritual performed to receive. And that is what a lot of magic is. Look, I am not defending magical rituals, I am just point out that it is less different tan presented.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
No. I am sorry, but no. Asking someone for something is not a technique. It just isn't. It's an entirely different stance.
I did not say asking is the same thing as demanding. The verse is ask and you shall receive. That is what asking is for. Getting. It is that simple. By what definition is it something else?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Asking a question ≠ performing a ritual.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Asking a question ≠ performing a ritual.
It does when the question should not have to be asked.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Asking a question ≠ performing a ritual.
It does when the question should not have to be asked.
I don't understand what you mean.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Asking a question ≠ performing a ritual.
It does when the question should not have to be asked.
I don't understand what you mean.
God, as posited by mainstream Christianity, is all knowing, all powerful and all loving. As such he doesn't need to hear you ask. As such, your suffering, or that of who you ask prayers for, should not need to wait until someone asks.
Prayer, as a request, makes no sense to me in the Christian context. I understand that is not the only way it is used, but it certainly a legitimate way in all the mainstream sects.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Prayer, as a request, makes no sense to me in the Christian context.
It makes no sense to a lot of Christians too, for the reasons you cite. I think we've had a thread recently asking exactly that: what's prayer for? Why pray when God already knows what you need? Is it just for OUR benefit, i.e. makes us feel better? And so on. These are all very live questions in the church, and people agonize over them (or laugh over a beer over them) all the time.
But not understanding it does not make it magic.
[ 12. November 2016, 01:24: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Asking a question ≠ performing a ritual.
It does when the question should not have to be asked.
This is a really basic misunderstanding of what prayer is about. Of course God knows what we need already! Jesus himself admitted it--heck, he didn't admit it, he stressed it over against the fools who thought otherwise! And of course he wants to give us what we need, as he also said.
But prayer--even asking in prayer--is hugely different from "them as don't ask, don't get." Take the example of a child with a loving parent. Does the parent know what the kid needs? Yes. Does the parent want to supply that? Yes. Does the parent still want the kid to ask? A lot of the time, yes.
Why? Because asking does several things. First, it reinforces the kid's knowledge of his own needs and inability to fulfill them, which is one way of grounding the kid in reality. There are few things nastier than a kid who treats his parents like shit because he has never for a moment experienced a sense of dependence. He takes them for granted, not in the good sense but in the bad sense. And he demands stuff as his right which is unreasonable even as a gift. If he never learns a sense of reality, you wind up with people like the young man in the affluenza case.
The second thing asking does is to train the kid in the basic human grace of gratitude. If you ask for what you need and see another person respond with care, gratitude is a pretty natural response. I think this is pretty much the only way a person learns that grace.
Third, asking teaches you to be content with what you have. When you ask--whether it be parents, teachers, or God--you become aware that what you want is coming from someone else, freely to you, at a cost to them. You become a bit more careful with your asking, because you begin to realize it is costing someone you care about something. Thus my son has learnt to ask for new Legos or software about once a month rather than every freaking day. He gets a lot more out of what he already possesses, as well.
All of this is part of the civilizing process. And the analogy with us and God is pretty strong. We too learn gratitude by asking. We learn contentment, we learn to appreciate what he gives us, and we even learn to value things more because of what it costs him (here I'm thinking primarily of forgiveness and our re-creation).
The last thing asking does for us is to build a stronger relationship between us and God. We have one strong disadvantage in that relationship as opposed to others, which is that we cannot physically see or hear him. That means it's very easy to forget all about him. The prodding of need is something that sends us back to communicate, much as certain college students away from home only contact their folks when they run out of money! It is not where you want to end up, relationship-wise, but it will do for a very basic beginning, until we mature more.
Getting booted off the computer--husband has asked me to set up his Vietnamese program. Relationship building, heh.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Asking a question ≠ performing a ritual.
It does when the question should not have to be asked.
This is a really basic misunderstanding of what prayer is about. Of course God knows what we need already! Jesus himself admitted it--heck, he didn't admit it, he stressed it over against the fools who thought otherwise! And of course he wants to give us what we need, as he also said.
But prayer--even asking in prayer--is hugely different from "them as don't ask, don't get." Take the example of a child with a loving parent. Does the parent know what the kid needs? Yes. Does the parent want to supply that? Yes. Does the parent still want the kid to ask? A lot of the time, yes.
Why? Because asking does several things. First, it reinforces the kid's knowledge of his own needs and inability to fulfill them, which is one way of grounding the kid in reality. There are few things nastier than a kid who treats his parents like shit because he has never for a moment experienced a sense of dependence. He takes them for granted, not in the good sense but in the bad sense. And he demands stuff as his right which is unreasonable even as a gift. If he never learns a sense of reality, you wind up with people like the young man in the affluenza case.
The second thing asking does is to train the kid in the basic human grace of gratitude. If you ask for what you need and see another person respond with care, gratitude is a pretty natural response. I think this is pretty much the only way a person learns that grace.
Third, asking teaches you to be content with what you have. When you ask--whether it be parents, teachers, or God--you become aware that what you want is coming from someone else, freely to you, at a cost to them. You become a bit more careful with your asking, because you begin to realize it is costing someone you care about something. Thus my son has learnt to ask for new Legos or software about once a month rather than every freaking day. He gets a lot more out of what he already possesses, as well.
All of this is part of the civilizing process. And the analogy with us and God is pretty strong. We too learn gratitude by asking. We learn contentment, we learn to appreciate what he gives us, and we even learn to value things more because of what it costs him (here I'm thinking primarily of forgiveness and our re-creation).
The last thing asking does for us is to build a stronger relationship between us and God. We have one strong disadvantage in that relationship as opposed to others, which is that we cannot physically see or hear him. That means it's very easy to forget all about him. The prodding of need is something that sends us back to communicate, much as certain college students away from home only contact their folks when they run out of money! It is not where you want to end up, relationship-wise, but it will do for a very basic beginning, until we mature more.
Getting booted off the computer--husband has asked me to set up his Vietnamese program. Relationship building, heh.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
mag·ic
ˈmajik/
noun
the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
If something beyond my understanding - like my car - isn't working as I want, I can try to influence it in three different ways.
One is to treat it as a person - ask it politely, cajole it, threaten to reject it, reason with it to try to get it to see that our interests are aligned, etc
One is to treat it as technology - as an object that could be manipulated if I only knew how, by applying the Ritual of the Jump Leads or other techniques that I count as knowledge even if I lack the understanding of how and if they work.
And the third is to reach deep inside and just will it to work.
Different writers of fantasy have portrayed magic in terms of all three models - as relationship with non-embodied intelligences who may or may not co-operate, as fragmentary knowledge of superior technology, and as personal power.
So yes I see a real difference between the relationship model (where the source of power is a person-like other), the technology model (where power is there for anyone to take it if they know how) and the interior model (where power resides within oneself but the struggle is to release and control it).
But I don't in general see Christians rigorously sticking with the relationship model in the way they talk about religion. How many times have you heard that prayers are answered if you pray the right way ? Or if you call up enough inner resources ? Or that sacraments if performed correctly confer graces ? With no mention of God as a person who chooses to give or to withhold.
Getting a drink of water from the tap is use of technology, not asking and receiving.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But I don't in general see Christians rigorously sticking with the relationship model in the way they talk about religion.
Okay this is your first problem right here, referring to "Christians" as if we were an undifferentiated blob, a puréed soup rather than a chunky stew. You can hear different Christians saying myriad different things, especially if you define "Christian" as "anybody who claims to be a Christian." It would be very odd if you didn't find differences in what they say about things like God, prayer, the sacraments, the Church, the morality of fair-trade tea.
quote:
How many times have you heard that prayers are answered if you pray the right way ? Or if you call up enough inner resources ?
Innumberable. Just as I have heard people say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different aspects of one God (among many other heresies). But Lamb Chopped will join me in condemning all of these things.
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Or that sacraments if performed correctly confer graces ?
I'd agree with that. Because God has promised us this will be the case. That if we set the table, He will come.
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With no mention of God as a person who chooses to give or to withhold.
It seems a bit much to insist that we lay out our entire theology every time we mention something. "Oops, you talked about buying more incense without mentioning that God may or may not find pleasure in the sweet odor ascending." Puh-leeze.
quote:
Getting a drink of water from the tap is use of technology, not asking and receiving.
So that metaphor doesn't work for you. Fine. People here have used others.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You know, all this is why I get pissed off with the people (Christians--others may be excused!) who post crap on FB like "Prayer changes things." Fuck no it doesn't. God changes things (if he likes) when we ask; we change things (if we can) under his will. But prayer in itself is no power. It has no will of its own, it releases no energy of its own, and it has no control over the events that may come in response to it. Those events (if any) are firmly in the control of the one prayed to.
And he may choose to react differently to the identical same prayer as prayed by two different people. Technology doesn't do that. With tech, you flip the switch and you get light*, end of. You don't get sausage. But if God (or one's smart ass mother) chooses to answer a request for more light with "No, you've had enough reading, have some dinner now," you may in fact get a sausage. There's no predicting the response if you look only at the prayer, or even the pray-er. You must look to the one being prayed to.
*
(Or you don't, if there's a freaking power outage--in which case nobody else who performs the same action will get light either. The rule of "do the same thing, get the same result" still holds true.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Magic is not an appeal to the supernatural. Magic is manipulation or command of the supernatural.
So on the one hand there's this big important difference between religion and magic, that religion appeals to a personal mysterious force (like asking an invisible parent) and magic atempts to manipulate mysterious forces (like a mechanism, like switching on a light or turning a tap).
And on the other hand, a whole heap of Christians have a mechanistic atitude to prayer without you disowning then as practicing magic rather than religion. And a whole heap of Christians including you talk of sacraments in terms that are somewhat mechanistic, but that's not important.
Which of your faces are you expecting me to believe ?
One moment religion has nothing to do with magical thinking, and the next expecting Christians to have a common position on how close to magical thinking they get is asking too much ?
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with your principle but think you're not carrying it through. But I could be wrong.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hey LC. What does He change? When? How? You know you don't have to respond to me, but hey.
I'm happy with Him changing bread and wine into His body and blood for mousethief and our Roman sibs here and graces proceeding from that. I love communion. I was able to make the hymns and the prayers and the other liturgy including the sermon work on Sunday. By a good spokesman for the badly named South Asian Concern. A lovely friend with barely managed depression for many years went for prayer last week. My wife actually went this week, which is unheard of. I was delighted. If my symptoms had come up in the pre-service words of knowledge I'd have felt obliged to even though I know I'm not the only one there with an abnormal prostate and any foolishness declaring literal healing would have had me assuming worse. I'd have confronted that with whoever was praying for me.
And I'm happy to ascribe to the Holy Spirit the orthodox benefits I receive on a daily, constant basis. Furthermore I actually BELIEVE what I'm saying ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Even though the psychology of religion probably explains that. Couldn't care less, yet. Nothing is convincing. As disturbing as the utterly ineffable facts of eternity and infinity which don't need God, in fact make Him unbelievable, along with the perfection, the fullness of reality beyond which I can envisage no meta-reality. No afterlife.
That's scary. But I can leave it alone. It can be the room, but there's a crucifix on the wall.
But should I expect other change?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
He changes what he sees best to change.
I suspect you mean "can we hope for a miracle." Certainly. But these are obviously rare and tend to come (in my experience*) not when we want them, but when (I theorize) they serve to advance God's kingdom. Which means that most of the time, we get other changes--subtle changes to circumstances, mental and emotional changes in ourselves or others, and so forth. Which frustrates the hell out of me, but God didn't ask me. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
*Yes, I've seen one and witnessed the aftereffects of another. I say that here because I don't want to hijack this thread with people asking.
[ 14. November 2016, 22:29: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Magic is not an appeal to the supernatural. Magic is manipulation or command of the supernatural.
So on the one hand there's this big important difference between religion and magic, that religion appeals to a personal mysterious force (like asking an invisible parent) and magic atempts to manipulate mysterious forces (like a mechanism, like switching on a light or turning a tap).
And on the other hand, a whole heap of Christians have a mechanistic atitude to prayer without you disowning then as practicing magic rather than religion. And a whole heap of Christians including you talk of sacraments in terms that are somewhat mechanistic, but that's not important.
Which of your faces are you expecting me to believe ?
One moment religion has nothing to do with magical thinking, and the next expecting Christians to have a common position on how close to magical thinking they get is asking too much ?
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with your principle but think you're not carrying it through. But I could be wrong.
I'll thank you to never, ever call me two-faced again. Thank you fucking much.
I am confused by your accusations. It seems to me that they are answered by this post. I rather DO disown their opinions, I thought pretty clearly.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But I don't in general see Christians rigorously sticking with the relationship model in the way they talk about religion.
Okay this is your first problem right here, referring to "Christians" as if we were an undifferentiated blob, a puréed soup rather than a chunky stew. You can hear different Christians saying myriad different things, especially if you define "Christian" as "anybody who claims to be a Christian." It would be very odd if you didn't find differences in what they say about things like God, prayer, the sacraments, the Church, the morality of fair-trade tea.
quote:
How many times have you heard that prayers are answered if you pray the right way ? Or if you call up enough inner resources ?
Innumberable. Just as I have heard people say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different aspects of one God (among many other heresies). But Lamb Chopped will join me in condemning all of these things.
I really think your caricature of my position:
One moment religion has nothing to do with magical thinking, and the next expecting Christians to have a common position on how close to magical thinking they get is asking too much ?
is ridiculous. I never said anything about "how close they are getting to magical thinking." That's your straw man, not my words or my thoughts. And expecting me to live up to your straw man is just not going to get you very far in any debate, let alone this one.
[ 14. November 2016, 23:47: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Cool it or take it to Hell.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thanks Lamb Chopped. You are most consistent. That's good by the way! For me there can be no miracles beyond the subtle, orthodox, cessationist, normative, deconstructed workings of the Spirit. Which covers a lot of possibilities. I'm not questioning yours or asking. They won't be transferable for me.
On the theme of respecting, embracing the other, difference, I must go further, which overlaps something I said in the mail to which you replied.
Though they're not transferable to me, they may be real. I said that "I'm happy with Him changing bread and wine into His body and blood for mousethief and our Roman sibs here" which is insufficient. If He does, then the Greco-Roman Church is more or solely valid. But I am invincibly ignorant of that in the same way as I am for all claims of miracles beyond the circle of the Son of Man.
I've never been able to articulate that before. And this year, more than any other, I've thought of going to a Roman Catholic church just to get away from char-evo content. I'm invincibly ignorant of that too.
But then I realised I must embrace it. Sigh.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
So where did this all end up?
It seems to me that it all hinges on the definition of "God" that you choose to use when analyzing someone's beliefs. While it is quite possible to redefine "God" (or "believing that God exists") in such a broad way that very few would qualify as an atheist, it is also possible to make such a specific definition that most Christians would end up as atheists. Neither approach is particularly helpful.
In practice, being an atheist doesn't imply that one is an "anti-theist", or that one might not have non-theistic religious or semi-religious beliefs, or that one must be particularly militant that others share their beliefs (or lack thereof.)
A Vajrayana Buddhist priest was describing the attributes and characteristics of the various dakinis* when he paused and observed, "But of course, they are all just aspects of your mind." Sometimes it is difficult to know where to draw the line. Besides many Buddhists, Taoists and some Unitarians may be atheists, and likely others. But again, it depends on the specific definition of "God" that you use to determine whether they believe it exists or not (especially because some will use the term "God" to describe different concepts or ideas.)
Personally, I'd assume that "God" would mean some powerful non-physical external entity capable of sentience, though that might not be a complete definition. But it does rule out some of the variations of belief: for example, a Taoist view of a "Path" along which the world flows more smoothly may provide a sense of direction and morality, but without the anthropomorphic aspects of a "God".
So there is a very wide range of beliefs among atheists, and picking any one group as an example of them all would like choosing one Fruitcake Zone candidate as being typical of all Christians.
* Powerful female figures that could be interpreted as goddesses. No link given because many drawings are more anatomically correct (ignoring the number of arms and heads, skin colors, etc.) than may be suitable in some environments.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Yes.
Some days I don't believe that goodness is personal but believe that acting as if He were does more to bring Him into my life than not...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Russ--
I'm that way about free will.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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