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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pope celebrates the reformation with agnostic leaders
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gorpo
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# 17025
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Posted
It has been reported yesterday that 500 years after the beginning of the Reformation that split western christianity, Pope Francis has celebrated the reformation in Sweden yesterday, along with representatives of the Lutheran World Federation.
What the news donīt tell us is that the "churches" that are celebrating with the Pope arenīt in any way representatives of the though of the 16th century Reformation. "Churches" that would elect an archbishop who thinks Jesus and Mohammed are equal, or the preaching of salvation trough faith in Christ is seen as offensive to religious pluralism, cannot in any respectful way be called "lutheran".
Itīs not like anybody cares, since people have long ceased to expect institutions like Church of Sweden (or even ELCA) have anything to do with christian belief.
I hope the presence of Pope Francis can be a good influence for lutherans. Itīs very interesting that 500 years after the reformation, the best person we can look forward or some good protestant teaching is the Pope. Our own "lutheran" leaders are only interested in promoting gender theories that the Pope himself has clearly stated that are ideological, and mistakes that lead to confusion.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
Itīs not like anybody cares, since people have long ceased to expect institutions like Church of Sweden (or even ELCA) have anything to do with christian belief.
A few months ago I was in the headquarters of the Christian Council of Sweden in Stockholm, which shares a building with the Swedish Free Churches headquarters, and was given a presentation of the CCS.
You might like to take a look at its list of member churches, which includes all the Lutherans, and tell me that they don't have a thing or two to tell us about Christian unity.
Can you think of anywhere else in the world where the Vineyard, apparently all the local varieties of Orthodoxen, the Catholics, the Pentecostals and the Baptists all sit down together, along with the various Lutherans, and are happy to acknowledge the latter as Christians?
If that's not something of a testimony to Christian belief, what is?
Could you not find it within yourself to celebrate the Pope's acknowledgement of the importance of Luther's key messages for the Church today, rather than complain?
[ 01. November 2016, 11:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Gorpo, is there anything to this other than a moan that the Lutheran Churches aren't as fundamentalist as you are?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I worshipped at a Lutheran church in Japan. OK, so most closely affiliated to the LCMS rather than ELCA but still with some ELCA people there. Also, one friends there regularly share memes from ELCA on Facebook. I've seen nothing to suggest that ELCA are "not Christian" in any meaningful way.
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that Lutheran Churches are "agnostic" or otherwise "not Christian"?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Graham J
Apprentice
# 505
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Posted
Hi Gorpo
You might need to rethink your source of information about the Church of Sweden.
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GJ
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gorpo
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# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Gorpo, is there anything to this other than a moan that the Lutheran Churches aren't as fundamentalist as you are?
Itīs not that they are not fundamentalist. Itīs just that they are not lutheran. Why use the word "lutheran" if you donīt believe lutheran stuff?
Again, itīs not like anybody cares. These churches are empty. People pay to have their weddings and burial ceremonies.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
The CofS website states that, although there are those with more Evangelical and "High Church" emphases giving a "high degree of comprehensiveness", it could best be characterized "as 'middle of the road,' uniting high-church concerns for liturgy and ministry with an openness to evangelization, and a pattern of parish life typical of a national or folk church".
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gorpo
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# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I worshipped at a Lutheran church in Japan. OK, so most closely affiliated to the LCMS rather than ELCA but still with some ELCA people there. Also, one friends there regularly share memes from ELCA on Facebook. I've seen nothing to suggest that ELCA are "not Christian" in any meaningful way.
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that Lutheran Churches are "agnostic" or otherwise "not Christian"?
LCMS is not affiliated with Lutheran World Federation. They would never associate with an institution that promotes gender ideology and abortion, and therefore is not actually christian. I never said ELCA and other lutheran church members are not christians. For a church member, it is permited to have christian beliefs. Itīs only if you want to apply for a bishop, you will have it easier if you stay away from the Jesus-stuff.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
You're still not presenting much in the way of evidence.
What does "promoting gender ideology" or "promoting abortion" actually mean? And, how does the views of a church on secondary issues like gender and abortion relate to whether or not that church (or, the leadership thereof) is "agnostic", "not Christian" or even "not Lutheran"?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
gorpo
Of course you're going to be criticised here for questioning Swedish Lutheran Christian credentials, but it's true that the Church of Sweden is very liberal according to most standards.
The interesting question, then, is why the Pope chose this particular branch of the Lutheran Church for his ecumenical commemoration. This article gives some clues.
The article highlights the Pope's desire that even Christians who are divided by dogma should and must work and pray together. A liberal denomination and a strict and conservative one obviously have the most distance to cover, so perhaps he thought that this partnership was the most important to nurture. Moreover, he's already made overtures to evangelicals in the past, and if he really wants to overcome divisions he has to include the most liberal churches as well.
It's probably also significant that the Pope chose to visit one of the most secular countries on earth. I see an obvious PR focus in that. There's a desire to show that Sweden is still a 'Christian' country, that its Protestant heritage (which Swedish evangelicals and liberals alike would want to acknowledge) is still important. The alternative, after all, is to admit defeat in the face of enormous societal change and church decline.
In general, then, I think the anniversary of the Reformation provided the opportunity to kill two or three birds with one stone.
[ 01. November 2016, 13:11: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
The Church of Sweden synod has published a paper detailing position on Sexual and Reproductive Rights. (Sorry, I can't get a URL link to work).
A footnote states that the Church "has discussed questions relating to abortion on several occasions, most recently in autumn 2013. The Synod has repeatedly decided, due to the complexity of the issue, not to formulate a single principle opinion on abortions but has instead emphasized the churchs pastoral task relating to the decision to undergo an abortion. Both the 2009 and 2013 statements emphasize that there is no one, singular, Christian viewpoint on abortion. This statement indicates that while the Church of Sweden recognizes the inalienable value of each individual there can exist a variety of opinions on the ethical dilemma that abortion poses. The dilemma should be taken seriously and the church should offer pastoral assistance to those individuals that have gone through or have been affected by an abortion".
It continues: "The Church of Sweden affirms the current Swedish legislation regarding abortions. Womens legally protected right to choose to undergo an abortion is considered to protect women from the serious risks to health that illegal abortions pose".
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Eutychus:
Could you not find it within yourself to celebrate the Pope's acknowledgement of the importance of Luther's key messages for the Church today, rather than complain?
I can't imagine that Martin Luther would look at the Church of Sweden and be anything but appalled that they claimed to be his theological descendants. For Luther and most Lutherans who have ever lived, belief in God was not a mere pious opinion. Now, you may be appalled at the fact that Luther would be appalled and think the Church of Sweden has improved on the message of Luther and the vast majority of Lutherans who've ever lived but that is a different question.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[QB] Gorpo, is there anything to this other than a moan that the Lutheran Churches aren't as fundamentalist as you are?
The Church of Sweden isn't as fundamentalist as the ELCA. Most Lutherans in the world would insist that their pastors actually believe in God. Not so in the Church of Sweden
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
it's true that the Church of Sweden is very liberal according to most standards.
There's still a substantial distance between liberal (or, even very liberal) and "not Christian" or "not Lutheran".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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uffda
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# 14310
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Posted
It's been some time since I posted on the ship. Today I stopped by to see what, if anything, people thought of the Ecumenical Celebration yesterday in Sweden. What I stumbled into is a neck-high pile of bile and judgment. On my church and on my tradition.
Thanks a lot.
I don't expect I'll be back any time soon.
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Alan Cresswell
Maybe so, but there's obviously a degree of subjectivity in analysing who's included and who isn't. (Quite apart from the official status of various denominations.)
TBH, I also think there's a certain pragmatism involved in these questions. If the Church of Sweden, which is the largest denomination in a highly secular country, is excluded, then the number of self-professed Christians there automatically plummets even further. Who would benefit from such an exclusion? The RCC wouldn't. The small evangelical churches there might not find it advantageous either.
However, in Gorpo's country, there are so many 'Christian' groups (and individual Christians) that the socio-cultural exclusion of one or two of them probably wouldn't make much difference to overall numbers, or to national identity.
This might be seen as a distasteful way of looking at it, but I do see denominations as institutions responding to the environments they find themselves in. The RCC clearly acts in different ways in different contexts.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
It's been some time since I posted on the ship. Today I stopped by to see what, if anything, people thought of the Ecumenical Celebration yesterday in Sweden. What I stumbled into is a neck-high pile of bile and judgment. On my church and on my tradition.
Thanks a lot.
I don't expect I'll be back any time soon.
However, most of the responses have actually rejected the criticisms set out in the OP!
Secondly, the OP wasn't referring to your church so much as a sister denomination. AFAIUI the Church of Sweden is independent, and probably differs in certain respects from the ELCA. If you stayed around you could help to clarify how they're similar and how they're different.
Myself, I don't have any bile for the Church of Sweden. I studied in Sweden many years ago, and occasionally attended worship in Lutheran churches there. It was an enriching time in my life.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You might like to take a look at its list of member churches, which includes all the Lutherans, and tell me that they don't have a thing or two to tell us about Christian unity.
Can you think of anywhere else in the world where the Vineyard, apparently all the local varieties of Orthodoxen, the Catholics, the Pentecostals and the Baptists all sit down together, along with the various Lutherans, and are happy to acknowledge the latter as Christians?
The Canadian prairies. Link: Prairie Centre for Ecumenism. Membership is Lutherans (3 varieties), Baptists, RC, Anglican, Presbyterians & Methodists (both in and outside of the United Church of Canada), Orthodox, and several others. Lots of shared things here.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
an institution that promotes gender ideology and abortion, and therefore is not actually christian.
Wow. This is obviously some new litmus test of orthodoxy I'm not familiar with.
Please explain the "therefore".
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I can't imagine that Martin Luther would look at the Church of Sweden and be anything but appalled that they claimed to be his theological descendants.
So what? I think the really newsworthy item in this event is that the Pope (as in "is the Pope a Catholic?") publicly acknowledged the applicability of Luther's teaching to the Church today, including his own: quote:
He recently called the German theologian a reformer of his time who rightly criticized a church that was "no model to imitate."
"There was corruption in the church, worldliness, attachment to money and power," Francis told reporters this summer.
They are the same abuses Francis has criticized in the 21st-century Catholic Church he now leads.
I'm disappointed uffda has seemingly almost missed everything on this thread after the OP. A colleague on an international committee on which I serve is a Swedish Lutheran pastor (another is a Uniting Church pastor). I count her as a sister in Christ, and why should I not?
We might have our differences, but anything that bucks the global trend to isolationism and withdrawal behind secular lines is a good thing.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
What's "gender ideology" when it's at home?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
TBH, I doubt whether Tomas de Torquemada would recognise the Roman Catholic Church of today, but that hardly means it's no longer Catholic. Things change. Thank God.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose the interesting question is whether these labels have any meaning when the content has changed so much.
In many cases not really, which is why many churches have been able to merge with others. Elsewhere, sticking with what's familiar is more about loyalty to a family or local tradition, to a social group, or to a prestigious and memorable heritage than it is about theology. This is true in Sweden, where the CofS's value is in maintaining the national identity by way of public rituals rather than by offering particular doctrines for the contemplation of the Swedish public.
Anyway, it occurs to me that there's a mutual PR benefit to this RC/CofS event. The small CofS gets to cosy up to a large, prestigious, highly visible institution in the form of the RCC, and the far more conservative RCC gets credit for hanging out with a much more liberal, tolerant institution in the CofS.
You might see a sort of trickery in this, because the CofS is not actually going to become any more conservative, and the RCC is unlikely to end up particularly liberal. But each absorbs a little of the aura of the other. The RCC might have more to gain because it's surely under far more pressure than the CofS. OTOH, cynics might grumble that this is just more of the same: Pope Francis talking up tolerance and togetherness but not changing his church's rules in any practical sense.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Eutychus:
and withdrawal behind secular lines is a good thing.
Why use the term Christian or Lutheran to refer to what you are when you don't even believe in God? Even the term Christian excludes those that don't self-identify as Christians. Can't there just be something like an International Committee of Nice People that does collectively whatever the ICNP deems nice people should do as a collective? St. Paul warned of those having the appearance of godliness but denying the power thereof. Now, we aren't even bothering with the pretense of God.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
You might see a sort of trickery in this, because the CofS is not actually going to become any more conservative, and the RCC is unlikely to end up particularly liberal. But each absorbs a little of the aura of the other. The RCC might have more to gain because it's surely under far more pressure than the CofS. OTOH, cynics might grumble that this is just more of the same: Pope Francis talking up tolerance and togetherness but not changing his church's rules in any practical sense.
To be fair to His Holiness, it's not really like he's able to.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The pope's visit is a godsend to conservative Christians. They get to hate on a lot of people all at once.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Eutychus:
and withdrawal behind secular lines is a good thing.
Why use the term Christian or Lutheran to refer to what you are when you don't even believe in God? Even the term Christian excludes those that don't self-identify as Christians. Can't there just be something like an International Committee of Nice People that does collectively whatever the ICNP deems nice people should do as a collective? St. Paul warned of those having the appearance of godliness but denying the power thereof. Now, we aren't even bothering with the pretense of God.
The worship and doctrine of The Episcopal Church has, featured intermittently on these boards since I signed up in 2001. I would suggest, therefore, that you take the raisin cake from your own eye before pronouncing on the mote in your Swedish Lutheran brothers.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Gorpo, did you by any chance study at Moore College? Lecturers there, too, skip over John 3 .
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Point of information: Dr Munib A. Younan is the bishop of The Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Lands. He is far from an archbishop. He is the elected president of the Lutheran World Federation, but it is far from being an archbishop.
My son personally knows Dr. Younan and worked under him for a full year. My son has the highest respect for him as a man of faith and a leader.
To the point of alleging that Younan thinks Jesus and Mohammed are equal, nothing can be further from the truth. Younan has a clear understanding that Jesus is the Son of God. He testifies to that every time he preaches.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why use the term Christian or Lutheran to refer to what you are when you don't even believe in God?
Didn't your church have someone in it called Spong or Pike or something?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
an institution that promotes gender ideology and abortion, and therefore is not actually christian.
Wow. This is obviously some new litmus test of orthodoxy I'm not familiar with.
Please explain the "therefore".
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I can't imagine that Martin Luther would look at the Church of Sweden and be anything but appalled that they claimed to be his theological descendants.
So what? I think the really newsworthy item in this event is that the Pope (as in "is the Pope a Catholic?") publicly acknowledged the applicability of Luther's teaching to the Church today, including his own: quote:
He recently called the German theologian a reformer of his time who rightly criticized a church that was "no model to imitate."
"There was corruption in the church, worldliness, attachment to money and power," Francis told reporters this summer.
They are the same abuses Francis has criticized in the 21st-century Catholic Church he now leads.
I'm disappointed uffda has seemingly almost missed everything on this thread after the OP. A colleague on an international committee on which I serve is a Swedish Lutheran pastor (another is a Uniting Church pastor). I count her as a sister in Christ, and why should I not?
We might have our differences, but anything that bucks the global trend to isolationism and withdrawal behind secular lines is a good thing.
Iīm not criticising the Pope for his visit to Sweden, let alone moaning about it. In fact, I think this is a great event. I only wanted to express the irony that it is the Pope who is remembering a supposed "lutheran" church about the importance of Lutherīs teaching, which they no longer hold. Neither have a denied that true christians in lutheran churches (as in all other denominations) are real brothers and sisters in Christ. Of course, the church as an institution is corrupt, with atheists taking the leadership of it and doing their best to assure christianity disappears from the map as quick as possible. Thatīs why theyīll make anything in the church as boring as possible and will avoid any orthodox christian teaching as "fundamentalist". You have to admit they do a great job. Neo-atheists like Richard Dawkins are not as good as driving people away from churches as are liberal church leaders.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
The world wide Lutheran church does not promote abortion.
It says that governments should not dictate a woman's choice but it encourages women to consider carefully their reproductive decisions.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Aha! We're at the true christian stage already.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Aha! We're at the true christian stage already.
That began at the OP.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
Of course, the church as an institution is corrupt
The universal Church as a human institution is corrupt, yes. That's life. But it also bears in it the hope of redemption. quote:
with atheists taking the leadership of it and doing their best to assure christianity disappears from the map as quick as possible.
Ah. I must have missed the bit about exactly what "gender ideology" is and how it's promoted, and why the peculiar combination of this and "promoting abortion" is a direct ticket to Hell over and above anything else.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
There is a difference between the church being a human institution and, therefore, subject to human weaknesses and being corrupt.
Sure, in any bureaucracy, there is waste.
However, I do think the vast majority of Lutheran leaders try to live honest lives--and I think a majority of the Roman establishment try to be honorable too.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What's "gender ideology" when it's at home?
Yes, I found that baffling as well. It's Brazilian Portuguese in which ideologia is clearly of feminine gender. Not Swedish.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
atheists taking the leadership of [the church] and doing their best to assure christianity disappears from the map as quick as possible.
A conspiracy of atheists seeking to destroy religion by infiltrating the highest positions of leadership. Did they perhaps arrange the assassination of Princess Diana and fake the moon landings as well?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I thought the leaders of the Church of Sweden (and others, presumably) were being accused of being agnostic.
Now, they're atheists , according to gorpo.
What next, I wonder? Fellow fallen angels of Lucifer, maybe? Brothers and sisters of Beelzebub?
I wonder if gorpo is thinking of taking over from Jack Chick RIP...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
atheists taking the leadership of [the church] and doing their best to assure christianity disappears from the map as quick as possible.
A conspiracy of atheists seeking to destroy religion by infiltrating the highest positions of leadership. Did they perhaps arrange the assassination of Princess Diana and fake the moon landings as well?
It's probably not the case that these clergy want Christianity to disappear (which would presumably remove their own jobs). The issue is rather that having 'non-believers' in leadership posts in the church is unlikely to encourage lay church members in their faith, should they have any.
In fact, I've read (pp.237-238) that the degree of secular political control over the CofS has been particularly high over the past century, and that the church basically acquiesced in the face of this. The CofS has now been disestablished, but would appear to have retained a strong secular focus.
That being the case it's perhaps unsurprising that issue of whether the Church remains within the Christian tradition has been touched on by a commentators. According to one Swedish Lutheran bishop it's not necessary for clergy in the CofS to 'believe in Jesus Christ'.And a minister and a professor of theology have recently resigned regarding the official CofS responses to Christian persecution in the Middle East.
The conservatism of some English-language online critics of the CofS is perhaps to be expected. There may be more balanced commentary available in Swedish; OTOH, most 'ordinary' Swedes are probably uninterested in what the CofS's clergy believe about Jesus or crucifixes, etc. Islam is a topical issue of concern, though.
[ 02. November 2016, 01:14: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Callan:
The worship and doctrine of The Episcopal Church has, featured intermittently on these boards since I signed up in 2001. I would suggest, therefore, that you take the raisin cake from your own eye before pronouncing on the mote in your Swedish Lutheran brothers.
I've often said TEC and all mainline churches in the United States struggle to distinguish themselves from the Rotary Club. However, TEC is not as far gone as the Church of Sweden. Sure, some within dream of being like the Church of Sweden. I would even say we are on our way to being like the Church of Sweden. Personally, TEC will not survive if it becomes like the Church of Sweden. The US doesn't need a national church to fulfill the role now performed by the Church of Sweden. Give it another 30 years and neither will Sweden. I suspect The Episcopal Church of the future should it conserve will be somewhat more conservative than it is now. In the future, there will be less of a reason to even go to church much less pursue ordination if you believe the whole thing even the existence of God is just a metaphor for something. We don't need the church to teach our children to be nice. We have cartoons for that.
quote:
originally posted by Ricardus:
Didn't your church have someone in it called Spong or Pike or something?
Both should have been removed from the episcopacy. Letting Pike off was TEC's way of signalling to the wider culture that they didn't take the core doctrines of Christianity seriously. I'm sure they did that to stay relevant. Problem was that people who do take the core doctrines of Christianity seriously look for a church that takes them seriously. The people who don't take them seriously no longer have much reason to attend church.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... In fact, I've read (pp.237-238) that the degree of secular political control over the CofS has been particularly high over the past century, and that the church basically acquiesced in the face of this. ...
Interesting, and if true, seriously depressing. However, equally depressing that anyone should publish something with the contentious subheading,
"Europe's regulated and monopolized (sic) religious economies",
and expect to be taken seriously. There's some quite interesting arguments in the article, but that subheading indicates an approach to Christian faith that verges on blasphemy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
While I am in no way contesting the historical aspects of the quoted article, one must remember that Rodney Stark is by no means a disinterested academic; his thesis over many years has been that a "free market" religious economy is of necessity more vibrant than any State-oriented system.
My claim for saying this is having studied his "General Theory of Religion" some years ago, leading to an extended essay, when I was studying for my Masters in Anthropology and Sociology of Religion. I felt that he had not always understood the European situation and had been unduly influenced by American culture.
Nevertheless, I am not querying the actual facts that he states about the Church of Sweden (about which I know very little!)
[ 02. November 2016, 17:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
.........as we all know the Pope is the Anti-Christ, the Whore of Babylon, etc.etc.. Against that a liberally-minded, possibly atheistic Church of Sweden, seems closer to the Kingdom of God than gorpo's outfit. Give us a break, guys!!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
The Church of Sweden has some good hymns (as you'd expect from a Lutheran denomination).
Here's one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiH9qB4hMog&nohtml5=False
This was the closing hymn at Mariakyrkan, Vaxjo, on Advent 3 a few years ago. The girls in albs are a group of confirmands - they acted as servers and acolytes during the Eucharist.
All looks fairly mainstream Christian to me...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Which reminds me - a recent Mystery Worshipper report from Visby Cathedral. Again, sounds pretty mainstream Christianity to me, though admittedly the sermon was preached by an English bishop!
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2016/3068.html
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
It has been reported yesterday that 500 years after the beginning of the Reformation that split western christianity, Pope Francis has celebrated the reformation in Sweden yesterday, along with representatives of the Lutheran World Federation.
What the news donīt tell us is that the "churches" that are celebrating with the Pope arenīt in any way representatives of the though of the 16th century Reformation. "Churches" that would elect an archbishop who thinks Jesus and Mohammed are equal, or the preaching of salvation trough faith in Christ is seen as offensive to religious pluralism, cannot in any respectful way be called "lutheran".
You mean that those "churches" aren't anti-Semitic in the way Luther's Church was? How sad for you.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Dr. Younan does refer to God as Allah, but that is a common name for God in Arab lands no matter whether one is Christian or Muslim. Does not mean Jesus and Mohammed are equal for Christian Arabs.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Dr. Younan does refer to God as Allah, but that is a common name for God in Arab lands no matter whether one is Christian or Muslim.
Not this again ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Allah is not just a "common name for God", it's the Arabic word for "God".
Its use to denote God by Christians speaking Arabic is no more heretical, (and no less so), than English-speaking people referring to the deity as "God".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
And the Romans used deus, except that it referred to a whole menagerie of supernatural beings.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Not the same thing. Deus means a god, Allah means the God.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Point of information: Dr Munib A. Younan is the bishop of The Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Lands. He is far from an archbishop. He is the elected president of the Lutheran World Federation, but it is far from being an archbishop.
My son personally knows Dr. Younan and worked under him for a full year. My son has the highest respect for him as a man of faith and a leader.
To the point of alleging that Younan thinks Jesus and Mohammed are equal, nothing can be further from the truth. Younan has a clear understanding that Jesus is the Son of God. He testifies to that every time he preaches.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Dr. Younan does refer to God as Allah, but that is a common name for God in Arab lands no matter whether one is Christian or Muslim. Does not mean Jesus and Mohammed are equal for Christian Arabs.
I assume that the elected archbishop to whom gorpo was referring was not the president of the LWF, but rather was the Archbishop of Uppsala, who is the primate of the Church of Sweden.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
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