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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Trump's Evangelical Endorsers
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I've listened to Morris's talk at HTB now (call it taking one for the team ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ).
I was very chummy & friendly indeed, but politics wasn't mentioned either directly or indirectly. Lots of lovely stories about God giving Morris a jet, and so forth.
However, I do think there's an issue to be answered in terms of being careful who you associate with. Right back on p1, it was suggested that this is just HTB trying to get in with the powerful, and that it's naivity rather than anything more sinister. And so it seemed - they seemed to be basking in the reflected glory of having such a Big Cheese coming to speak, and to promote his book at their church.
And yet. And yet. Morris's name was published on the list of Trumps evangelical advisory committee back in July. The interview takes place way after Trump's comments about women, Mexicans, disabled people, not paying his taxes etc are widely known, and there's no mention of any role his advisors might have, even tangentially.
Also - Gumbel (who the atheist husband recognised as "Argh! It's the man in the jumper!") says that Morris's church have supported HTB & supported alpha. How they have done so is not discussed. I'm going to try to ask them.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I figured my chance of asking clergy directly on the phone was slim, so I've emailed....
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm surprised it was the father and not the son. I wonder if the father actually approved it?
Yes, I had much the same thought when I saw the story initially, and would tend to give BG the benefit of the doubt.
The underlying issue is still the same though - wrt a religious organisation pushing a political agenda, though I suppose the argument would be that the advert was about 'values' and not any one particular candidate and was in some way personal rather than organisational.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I figured my chance of asking clergy directly on the phone was slim, so I've emailed....
HTB has already had outspoken Trump supporters in the shape of Bill and Beni Johnson. I don't see how inviting Morris could, in any way, be seen as a politically neutral act.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
quote:
I was very chummy & friendly indeed, but politics wasn't mentioned either directly or indirectly. Lots of lovely stories about God giving Morris a jet, and so forth.
He's like the Mel Smith vicar in the 'Not The Nine O'Clock News' sketch. 'The Devil, Is He All Bad'. The Smith character's line, you will recall, was: "'Less of the 'Get Thee Behind Me Satan' and more of the come into the kitchen me old mate, and have a cup of tea". Presumably this guy is "less of the 'You cannot serve two masters, God and Mammon' and more "Come into the kitchen, me old mate Mammon and have a glass of this rather exquisite Chateau Lafite '69".
They are just making this stuff up as they go on, aren't they?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I figured my chance of asking clergy directly on the phone was slim, so I've emailed....
HTB has already had outspoken Trump supporters in the shape of Bill and Beni Johnson. I don't see how inviting Morris could, in any way, be seen as a politically neutral act.
K.
And Brian and Jenn Johnson too, if it comes to it. But I'm not sure it's exactly cozying up to the American Right. HTB have Catholics and Orthodoxen speaking at their events. No-one thinks they are in some secret pact to restore papal rule, though.
Komensky, I know from your previous posting that you are very familiar with HTB. Have you any direct evidence that there is a desire to support those with a right wing agenda, as opposed to the sort of general goodwill towards those with a similar theological (rather than political) outlook. Hell, I went to see Brian and Jenn Johnson (I happened to be in town at the same time; for the record I thought they were vacuuous - worship by numbers), and though I'm a fully paid-up,card carrying charismatic, I'm more Tony Benn than Tony Blair in political terms, much less a fellow-traveller with the Trumpite (or more significantly Pence-ite) tendency.
My impression, based on a much less intimate knowledge of the HTB leadership than yours, is that NG and co have been, quietly, distancing themselves from their former positions under Sandy Millar, particularly on the licitness of same-sex intimate relationships. This seems an unlikely way to curry favour amongst American culture warriors.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
HTB have Catholics and Orthodoxen speaking at their events. No-one thinks they are in some secret pact to restore papal rule, though.
My own feeling is not that they are necessarily right-wing, but they tend to quite like associations with power.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
HTB have Catholics and Orthodoxen speaking at their events. No-one thinks they are in some secret pact to restore papal rule, though.
My own feeling is not that they are necessarily right-wing, but they tend to quite like associations with power.
Yes, I think that's right. Specifically, that they want to influence those in power. Witness Ken Costa's influence in the City. It's a bit like the Bash camps, brought up to date.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That is very much what it is. Eww.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Well, yes and no. There is nothing specifically wrong in trying to influence people. Everyone does it all the time, and especially those who believe that they have a positive truth they want to share. The problem is, who is running who? It's quite clear, istm, that in the States, is a small number of, put frankly, evil people with a lot of money and a lot at stake, are running many, maybe a majority of USA evos for all they are worth.
Do I think this is what's happening at HTB? No, but I really hope Nicky Gumbel has an awfully long spoon.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
quote:
I was very chummy & friendly indeed, but politics wasn't mentioned either directly or indirectly. Lots of lovely stories about God giving Morris a jet, and so forth.
He's like the Mel Smith vicar in the 'Not The Nine O'Clock News' sketch. 'The Devil, Is He All Bad'. The Smith character's line, you will recall, was: "'Less of the 'Get Thee Behind Me Satan' and more of the come into the kitchen me old mate, and have a cup of tea". Presumably this guy is "less of the 'You cannot serve two masters, God and Mammon' and more "Come into the kitchen, me old mate Mammon and have a glass of this rather exquisite Chateau Lafite '69".
They are just making this stuff up as they go on, aren't they?
I'd never seen that sketch, so I'm glad I went to look for it! Thank you. Yes, the interview is awful. I was washing up so at least it wasn't half an hour of my life utterly lost. The plane, though, you must understand, came from God for the ministry . Not for personal use, oh no. And - wait - it was provided by a donor just after Morris & his missus had sold their cars because God had told them to. Fancy that!
And he double tithes, you know. He's not saying that just to show off. He just drops it into conversation.
Komensky - I didn't know the history of other Trump supporting visiting speakers. So, a random email from not-a-church-member is unlikely to be met with a positive response.
I used to worship at an HTB affiliated church. I am so so glad I'm out of there. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I'm going to end up before a faceless Jack Chick God, aren't I, and be told: "You corrupted Jemima the 9th, didn't you". I'm not sure my "On the plus side, I've read the Prophecy of Habakuk" is going to cut it. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Well, yes and no. There is nothing specifically wrong in trying to influence people.
At uni I rubbed shoulders with people who went to Iwerne, the successor to Bash camp. It took a while to realise that this was very much something one had to come from a certain background to be eligible for, and from which one was selected with the deliberate agenda of placing CoE evangelicals within handy reach of the corridors of power.
I admit to being really conflicted about this.
Some of those people seem to have turned out to be fine, godly, and upstanding, and yes, in certain situations it's nice to have someone with a bit of clout on your side.
But I can't help think that the whole thing runs so counter to the way the Kingdom of God is supposed to work, and is in danger of being corrupted by politics.
Joseph didn't get to have Pharaoh's ear by going to the right schools. He got there because God put him there.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Moses on the other hand had been to the right school.
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Yes, but no-one planned to send him there except God!
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
But not because Mummy and Daddy put his name down for it.
(x-post)
[ 17. November 2016, 21:39: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Well, yes and no. There is nothing specifically wrong in trying to influence people. Everyone does it all the time, and especially those who believe that they have a positive truth they want to share. The problem is, who is running who?
There is nothing wrong in the abstract about trying to influence people. The reality of it is much more sticky though and prone to a kind of 'regulatory capture'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
HTB have Catholics and Orthodoxen speaking at their events.
Sadly there are numerous Orthodoxen to back any position, no matter how extreme. We're like the converse of Poe's law.
Or as a friend responded to someone gushing that an Orthodox (Priebus) was on Trump's cabinet, "Rasputin and Stalin were Orthodox too, and how did that work out?"
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
HTB have Catholics and Orthodoxen speaking at their events.
Sadly there are numerous Orthodoxen to back any position, no matter how extreme. We're like the converse of Poe's law.
Or as a friend responded to someone gushing that an Orthodox (Priebus) was on Trump's cabinet, "Rasputin and Stalin were Orthodox too, and how did that work out?"
You think you have some disreputable Orthodoxen? Hehe. This is one area where we evangelicals have you beat many, many times over. You may do a lot of things well, but bat-crazy ideologues? No one does that better than we do.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I'm going to end up before a faceless Jack Chick God, aren't I, and be told: "You corrupted Jemima the 9th, didn't you". I'm not sure my "On the plus side, I've read the Prophecy of Habakuk" is going to cut it.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) I'm utterly corrupted and happy that way! That would look good on a t shirt, come to that...
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Komensky, I know from your previous posting that you are very familiar with HTB. Have you any direct evidence that there is a desire to support those with a right wing agenda, as opposed to the sort of general goodwill towards those with a similar theological (rather than political) outlook.
I've been out of the direct HTB loop for around eight years, so I can't speak with any great insider's authority. From what I know of NG and his outlook, he is very conservative (people should not have good friends of the opposite sex, for starters—not even 'tennis coaches' [now there's South Ken approach!] and he believes the future of evangelical movements is in the US mega-church sphere. Have a look at who he invites to speak at HTB and to the Leadership Conference. Sure, he has some RC and Orthodox friends, but they are a minority. There is another important factor in his approach and that is to accept anyone who professes Jesus Christ. It is this latter category where he steadfastly refuses to discern good from bad (he openly supports the loony-tune fringe of Todd Bentley and co. Mark Driscoll, Bill Johnson, Rich Warren, etc.). His Kingdom [Now] Theology is mixed together with conservative Calvinism (frequently flip-flopping between determinism and free will), which is topped with a thin layer of CoE icing. He is really not that bothered about truthfulness with facts if he believes that the Kingdom can be furthered. There were outright liars who gave fake testimonies for the Alpha Course. Once this was discovered by NG, he usually pulled the speaker from future occasions, but never offered public admissions and/or apologies. He happily repeats lies, for example, about Einstein's belief in God, even when he knows such claims to be false. It furthers the Kingdom—full stop. That brings us back to his support for Trump.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
My impression, based on a much less intimate knowledge of the HTB leadership than yours, is that NG and co have been, quietly, distancing themselves from their former positions under Sandy Millar, particularly on the licitness of same-sex intimate relationships. This seems an unlikely way to curry favour amongst American culture warriors.
There were some signs of that position shifting, but now he merely guards his language about it. Someone from the Grauniad told me that he will no longer do interviews where issues of homosexuality are raised. NG maintains many of Millar's hardline positions (as above about friends of the opposite sex, he echoes J-John's insistence on not dating people out of the faith, not having boyfriends/girlfriends even sleep under the same roof until they are married, not taking boyfriends/girlfriends on holiday). Using the language 'same-sex attraction' is merely homophobia in a cozy jumper. The other part of NG's close relationship with the far-right US evangelicals is the prosperity gospel. My partner and I spotted this trend not long after NG's takeover after Millar's departure.
I do not think that NG speaks for all of his congo—that should be obvious. As to why his own position is more hardline than that of most of the C of E and, I would guess, most of his own flock, is worthy of further consideration.
This is depressing me.
K.
[fixed code]
[ 18. November 2016, 11:10: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
There is another angle we ought to address/admit. I suspect I would congratulate a member of clergy who spoke against Trump's bigotry and hateful rhetoric—but perhaps that also crosses the line as far as the tax-exempt status goes?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think the challenge for Christians of all persuasions is to resist being enslaved to partisan politics, either for or against, especially along the lines defined by the right as hot-button topics. As Martin60 has recently argued on another thread, our priorities should be elsewhere.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I must say that it doesn't surprise me; charismatics especially have a tendency to romanticise the strongman, possibly due to the dynamics of the movement.
This I don't get. How does it chime with:
quote:
Originally posted by St Paul:
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Or even:
quote:
Originally posted by one of the Isaiahs
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth
[ 18. November 2016, 11:44: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think it comes from the concept of "anointed leadership", especially prevalent in charismatic/new church settings, plus a confusion, especially in "God's own country", between the promised land of the OT and the US*. The OT kings, prophets, and royal court are taken as archetypes.
==
*Over this side of the pond this goes along the slightly different lines of "the Christian heritage of our nation", which in France at least is a dog-whistle for anti-immigration/anti-Islam policies.
[ 18. November 2016, 11:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
IME the concept of "conquering by His own defeat" (pace Michael Card) is a notion with plenty of traction amongst many charos. Make of it what you will.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
There used to be a bunch of musclemen charismatic/conservative Christians whose signature move was blowing up hotwater bottles until they (the hotwater bottle) exploded. It was quite entertaining.
I wonder what happened to them.
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arse
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
IME the concept of "conquering by His own defeat" (pace Michael Card) is a notion with plenty of traction amongst many charos. Make of it what you will.
Wasn't that Benny Hinn's soteriology?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I must say that it doesn't surprise me; charismatics especially have a tendency to romanticise the strongman, possibly due to the dynamics of the movement.
This I don't get. How does it chime with:
The cynical tl;dr answer is that they ignore the second part of 1Cor12:31, and emphasise the first part.
The more extensive answer is that once the emphasis is on supernatural gifts, the mantle of authority ends up following those with the most visible and flashy gifts - who often tend to be the naturally charismatic to start with.
Add to that the theology of 'prophet, priest and king' that Eutychus describes above, and you have the conditions for the lionisation of power, and secular power can always be described in terms of Cyrus.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't see the problem. Some emphasise on thing, others another. Some see "muscular Christianity" modelled after the great warriors like David and Samson, some see models of ephereal Christianity after Ezekial etc some see models of non-violent radicalism after Daniel's friends in the furnace etc.
That's the most maddening thing about the OT, you tend to see in it whatever you want to see.
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arse
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
IME the concept of "conquering by His own defeat" (pace Michael Card) is a notion with plenty of traction amongst many charos. Make of it what you will.
Wasn't that Benny Hinn's soteriology?
Jurgen Moltmann, I think, originally, but I think it's a favourite theme of Frederick Beuchner as well. I doubt Mr Hinn is very keen on it. I think the original quote is to the effect that God is never so powerful than when he shows his vulnerability in the helplessness of Jesus on the cross.
[ 18. November 2016, 15:41: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There used to be a bunch of musclemen charismatic/conservative Christians whose signature move was blowing up hotwater bottles until they (the hotwater bottle) exploded. It was quite entertaining.
I wonder what happened to them.
They missed the bit in parentheses.
All a bit messy really.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I don't have a vendetta against him, no. I will, however, call out snakes in the grass. Should a C of E vicar be taking part in promoting political candidates at home or abroad? No. I will certainly write to HMRC to see that HTB is investigated for breaking the rules that determine tax-exempt status. This is not his first time. ....
I agree with you. I don't personally approve of clergy espousing party politics from the pulpit, but for a different reason. By implication it could be construed as unchurching those who disagree with them.
Even on that, IMHO there are rare exceptions. I've commented before on these threads, that I've come to the conclusion that, very rare though it is that one can say such a thing, to have voted for Trump is not just stupid, immature, naive or unwise, but does actually tip over into being a sin.
Nevertheless, Komensky, it might be worth checking first that you aren't confusing US and English and Welsh law there (I don't know about Scotland. Charities work slightly differently there). Besides, the whole area of clergy engaging in politics is much more unclear than that. There is a clergyman who is a Police Commissioner carrying a Labour Party label. I think he's retired from being an incumbent, but I suspect is still licensed. He was, in earlier years a city councillor in a major UK city. What is more I discovered recently that back in the sixties, Bristol had a Lord Mayor who was a Labour Councillor, a reverend and rector of a parish in the city.
I don't think that has any effect on the charitable status of parish funds - and I don't think it should. After all, the church treasurer can't restrain the Reverend if he or she goes off on some oratorical jolly of their own. It's more a question whether it is or could be a disciplinary matter for the clergyperson concerned.
Or would you regard that as OK if they take up politics for the same party as the one you usually vote for - but not otherwise?
More generally, though, it isn't only clergy on the evangelical wing who have sometimes had an over-close relationship and appeared to have shown undue admiration for people in power. Right back to ancient Israel and Judah, kings could always find priests and prophets (usually condemned as false ones) to cosy up to them. In the C18-19 everyone took it for granted that Prime Ministers would fill episcopal vacancies with Whig or Tory bishops. More recently, Cosmo Gordon Lang was no evangelical. Nor were Geoffrey Fisher.or any of the other political Archbishops of that era. Neither the RCC nor the Orthodox Churches have been that reluctant to cuddle up with the powerful, including some very dodgy examples. It would have been even harder for the RCC to avoid doing when being Pope did not just make you head of state of a postage stamp sized enclave, but a swathe of territory across central Italy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've come to the conclusion that, very rare though it is that one can say such a thing, to have voted for Trump is not just stupid, immature, naive or unwise, but does actually tip over into being a sin.
Worthy of the Quotes file, and 'twill be my new signature, I think. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I agree with you. I don't personally approve of clergy espousing party politics from the pulpit, but for a different reason. By implication it could be construed as unchurching those who disagree with them.
There is a clergyman who is a Police Commissioner carrying a Labour Party label. I think he's retired from being an incumbent, but I suspect is still licensed. He was, in earlier years a city councillor in a major UK city. What is more I discovered recently that back in the sixties, Bristol had a Lord Mayor who was a Labour Councillor, a reverend and rector of a parish in the city.
I don't think that has any effect on the charitable status of parish funds - and I don't think it should. After all, the church treasurer can't restrain the Reverend if he or she goes off on some oratorical jolly of their own. It's more a question whether it is or could be a disciplinary matter for the clergyperson concerned.
Personally, I'd distinguish between the office and the man in all such cases - and yes, if the rev went off on an oratorical tangent whilst acting in their official capacity as cleryperson then that's something I would disagree with no matter what the politics.
The problem arises in this case due to the evangelical celebrity culture - which equally applies in the case of Robert Morris being chosen (presumably Trump wouldn't pick a bunch of nonentities who happened to be pastor of Second PCA church of Peoria, etc.) as part of the 'evangelical council' as to NG, SM and others. [Of course it could arise due to the other factors as you mention]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've come to the conclusion that, very rare though it is that one can say such a thing, to have voted for Trump is not just stupid, immature, naive or unwise, but does actually tip over into being a sin.
Worthy of the Quotes file, and 'twill be my new signature, I think.
I am honoured. Thank you.
I probably ought to say, though, that although I think they would make it too long to be a sig, the words 'very rare though it is that one can say such a thing', are also a fundamental part of what I think. I'm not sure that I can think of any other electoral event in recent years that I've known anything about in respect of which this conclusion could be deduced.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Enoch
More recently, Cosmo Gordon Lang was no evangelical. Nor were Geoffrey Fisher.or any of the other political Archbishops of that era.
Well they were political, no doubt about that, but I think they were (in at least their own eyes) more about speaking truth to power than cosying up to powerbrokers; more an authentic prophetic voice than a false one. I can understand that one might consider them ill advised or wrong, if one were of a different political persuasion, but I think that they were fairly uncompromising in speaking out the biblical truth as they understood it, regardless of fear or favour.
[ 19. November 2016, 08:25: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Well they were political, no doubt about that, but I think they were (in at least their own eyes) more about speaking truth to power than cosying up to powerbrokers; more an authentic prophetic voice than a false one. I can understand that one might consider them ill advised or wrong, if one were of a different political persuasion, but I think that they were fairly uncompromising in speaking out the biblical truth as they understood it, regardless of fear or favour.
Are you sure of that? Most of the time, part of what the role of being an establishment bishop has been understood to be has been to massage the consciences of those in power and to endorse them in the eyes of the rest of us.
Partly, how you see this may depends on how you view the coup in 1936. As it happens, I think the outcome was the right one. I agree with it. But I recognise that for those that didn't, the Archbishop's role could look very dodgy. His speech broadcast on 13th December 1936 is quoted against him to this day.
[ 19. November 2016, 10:38: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
The RC church is just as quick as the con-evo's to jump into bed with the powerful. The RC church has the advantage of a greater sense of coherence and integral structure, whereas the con-evo groups are largely independent of one another and/or loosely related through more informal networks (which can more easily be disavowed if things look ugly to the public).
Goebbels was only excommunicated from the RC church for marrying a protestant, not for his role in war crimes or mass murder of Jews. #howitworks
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Goebbels was only excommunicated from the RC church for marrying a protestant, not for his role in war crimes or mass murder of Jews. #howitworks
The RCC had been officially and with impunity killing Jews for a thousand years. Nothing new.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In summary, for him DH issues trump social justice ones.
I think that it is even simpler than that.
The best description is from the book "Why Liberals Win the Culture Wars - Even When they Lose Elections."
This is purely and simply a conservative/liberal event. Evangelicals voted with the conservatives out of concern for liberal trends.
This is the normal back and forth of social evolution. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Goebbels was only excommunicated from the RC church for marrying a protestant, not for his role in war crimes or mass murder of Jews. #howitworks
The RCC had been officially and with impunity killing Jews for a thousand years. Nothing new.
Links please.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The RC church is just as quick as the con-evo's to jump into bed with the powerful. The RC church has the advantage of a greater sense of coherence and integral structure, whereas the con-evo groups are largely independent of one another and/or loosely related through more informal networks (which can more easily be disavowed if things look ugly to the public).
Goebbels was only excommunicated from the RC church for marrying a protestant, not for his role in war crimes or mass murder of Jews. #howitworks
K.
True.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Bingo.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Goebbels was only excommunicated from the RC church for marrying a protestant, not for his role in war crimes or mass murder of Jews. #howitworks
The RCC had been officially and with impunity killing Jews for a thousand years. Nothing new.
Links please.
Link
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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