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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Remembrance Day/Remembrance Sunday. Who may be remembered
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
We have located the grave of my cousin who was killed 31 Oct 1945 in Grand Rapids, Michigan whilst a POW of the Americans, captured in Italy near Monte Casino. Fought in Russia before that. May we remember him in the same way we remember my mother's brothers who were with the Canadian Army? No-one has ever remembered him before. They were all killed.
Is Remembrance for our side, or for all in war, and all the tragedy of war? Is it a patriotic thing? Should I shut up already?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
It looks like you may be a few days early. I don't see anything wrong remembering your family member on that day.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
..........I guess it's a question what is being remembered. A hard question might be to ask what was your relative doing in Russia, and why he was defending fascism by Monte Casino? Your relatives who died in the Canadian army fought for a more noble cause, and their sacrifice is one for which many of us have cause to be grateful. The brutal fact is that there is a difference. We remember people in different ways, which enables us to remember them all with integrity.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Be gentle with yourself. Remember all the boys and men who fought in wars, your side, the other side, their side. They were (are) someone's son, daughter, husband, wife and parent. They are human. They should be remembered, if only during the silence, to avoid complications with the super-charged "patriotism" present at most memorials.
Je me souviens/I remember
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I recently visited Heilbronn , 62% of which was flattened during WW2. Mostly, probably, by Lancaster bombers built by my Dad. It was a strange and sobering visit.
Of course we should remember all sides. War is terrible, from every angle.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Thanks Pete.
Kwesi: they fought because their country asked or made them. Which seems the same everywhere. The only surviving German cousin (and family) I have was born in 1942. My father is alive because his family left in 1936 being of the wrong persuasion, and fled again from Singapore in 1942 to Canada.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I didn't formerly observe the silence today but intend to do so on Sunday 13th
On our news they showed the 19,000 plus effigies, (representing each British soldier killed on 1/7/16), made by a local artist all laid out in formation on Westminster Green. The news reader said it was a day to remember 'everyone killed in every conflict around the world'. This sounded like a very general statement and it all seemed strangely vacuous to me.
The visual impact of the display was powerful enough, but what actually are we commemorating in this instance? Bravery/obedience on a grand scale yes, but military incompetence on an even grander scale I should have thought.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The BBC news (online) refers to 11th November as 'Armistice Day', i.e. specifically remembering the end of WW1 (which ISTM means remembering not only the slaughtered, but also the military nincompoops who 'led' them to the slaughter....).
The nearest Sunday to 11th November, says the BBC (so it must be right) is now 'Remembrance Sunday', presumably not only to honour the dead of WW1, but also all the other wars since then.
Not sure what to make of all this, TBH.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
@rolyn, point of information, sir, it was College Green, Bristol.
I find myself unable to acknowledge thanks for the British dead on whom my freedom rests. I want to acknowledge their loss. But I'm not glad they fought and killed and died for my freedom.
But this is a very recent development, from my 6th decade and so I'm strongly conditioned to love my nation's warriors, from the Civil War onwards, which I find intriguing. I'm reading a biography on Lincoln and find myself enormously moved by him; a consummate warmonger of the highest dominant principle in our culture.
Unfortunately!
And yes no..., I'm happy to acknowledge your cousin. How was he killed? I can't find anything about Italian POWs killed in Canada after the war. Or during. As the Calormene soldier Emeth's good works done for Tash were accepted as works done for Aslan in Lewis' The Last Battle, so are your cousin's if our side's are.
We are patriots of a higher kingdom that does not war and that should frame our remembrance of our dead and all dead in the futility of war.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
As noted in my original post killed in the USA. Fort Custer was a large POW camp in Michigan. He is German.
[ 12. November 2016, 14:36: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
It seems clear to me; Remembrancetide is a time to remember those who have died in war. Perhaps we might focus foremost on those in the armed forces who have "willingly given" their lives but that is not to forget those whose lives have been "unwillingly taken" when they were civilians. It matters not to me; we remember those who have died in war - any war, any way.
They shall grow not old, as we that left grow old; age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn; at the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I no longer do anything to observe Remembrance Day, except to put a sign on my office door and take the day off. Why? Because the best way to observe Remembrance Day is to stop creating more dead soldiers to remember. What we celebrated yesterday might as well be called Amnesia Day.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As noted in my original post killed in the USA. Fort Custer was a large POW camp in Michigan. He is German.
That'll learn me. Corrected rolyn and misread you.
You should still remember your cousin as one of the fallen. We can't be grateful for war.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
I should probably put this down to too much Facebook, but I’ve become disillusioned with remembrance over the last few years. Social media is full of people attacking “liberals” who are offended by poppies, before anyone has expressed offence. The Britain First party seems to have adopted the poppy as their logo. I even saw one of them claim that the 2nd world war for nothing, because we got invaded by Muslims anyway. And there seems to be an increasingly amount of pressure to join in. With poppies being worn on TV from some time in October; controversies about footballers not being allowed to wear the image; brooches, pins, jumpers; tapestries; flower gardens all in poppy logos. It’s no longer about remembering anyone who was killed in war – it’s become a self-serving industry. A must-have fashion accessory.
I’ve spent remembrance Sundays standing by the war memorial in silence, holding the cross or a candle; but no more. If I want to remember the victims of war, be amazed at their sacrifices, or be thankful for what was won, I shall do it when I please, without announcing it to the world. If I want to give money to the RBL, I shall do likewise. It’s time to rethink remembrance.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
@rolyn, point of information, sir, it was College Green, Bristol.
Thanks for that correction. Half an eye on the TV, saw Prince H and put 2 and 2 together to make 5. Longstanding fault.
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Posted by Martin60:
We are patriots of a higher kingdom that does not war and that should frame our remembrance of our dead and all dead in the futility of war.
That encompasses the only real feeling that can come to me on Remembrance Day. Usually if I happen to hear the strains of Elgar's Nimrod played in the open air of the Cenotaph.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As noted in my original post killed in the USA. Fort Custer was a large POW camp in Michigan. He is German.
When you say 'killed', what exactly do you mean? 31st October 1945 is several months after VE day. Did he die of wounds suffered earlier? Did he die of some other cause, illness or whatever? And if so, was that natural, accidental or caused by poor conditions in the camp.
Or was he put to death by his captors on that date. Unless the circumstances were very odd, that would have been a serious war crime. If he has no other kin and you were only recently to have discovered this, that might impose on you some sort of obligation to take up his cause.
Unless that really is the case, it is, I'm afraid, misleading to say he was 'killed on 31st October 1945'. If he died of wounds, Monte Cassino was in the winter of 1944.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
@rolyn, point of information, sir, it was College Green, Bristol.
...
I can confirm that. I visited it this morning.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Ten members of the Luftwaffe who died when their planes were shot down are buried in the next parish to mine. There will be poppies placed on their graves tomorrow;their graves are treated exactly as the British war graves in the same cemetery.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Our service this morning was rather special and I shan't go into all the detail. After the welcome to special guests, the initial words of the service itself were the reading of Wilfred Owen's poem starting "So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went" which got me as it always does.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As noted in my original post killed in the USA. Fort Custer was a large POW camp in Michigan. He is German.
When you say 'killed', what exactly do you mean? 31st October 1945 is several months after VE day. Did he die of wounds suffered earlier? Did he die of some other cause, illness or whatever? And if so, was that natural, accidental or caused by poor conditions in the camp.
Or was he put to death by his captors on that date. Unless the circumstances were very odd, that would have been a serious war crime. If he has no other kin and you were only recently to have discovered this, that might impose on you some sort of obligation to take up his cause.
Unless that really is the case, it is, I'm afraid, misleading to say he was 'killed on 31st October 1945'. If he died of wounds, Monte Cassino was in the winter of 1944.
That's when he died. They had a truck full of German boys, taking them out to work on farms. Crashed a train into it. The newspaper articles from 1945 say accident. We don't know really. He fought in Poland, Russia before being wounded before Leningrad, then recovered, sent to Italy.
Link to POW deaths listing
I took the info to Germany in 2011 and again 2 years ago. The village my family lived in was carpet bombed. The whole of the Rhineland was. In the hill country between Solingen and Cologne. The tour of the area is troubling with people who know: das haus kaput, pointing and saying kaput alot. Very round ponds. Rough count is 90% of houses destroyed. 4 of 5 families of immediate relatives all killed in their homes. I have no idea what cause to pursue. Except peace and general disapproval of wars, soldiers etc. And prizing the family I have got.
[ 13. November 2016, 03:59: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
That looks like a well-maintained cemetery, and the plaque mentions an annual memorial ceremony. I can't see any reason not to include your cousin in Remembrance.
FWIW, this is the Commonwealth War Graves listing for Dyce Old Cemetery, not far from where I live. You will see that the war dead are listed alphabetically, with no division between the Germans and "ours". The gravestones are of the same design, the Germans are included in Remembrance.
The Dyce burials are all Luftwaffe who were shot down. There was also a German prisoner-of-war camp in a different parish. That parish church has preserved the German Bible used by the prisoners-of-war for their Sunday services in the church. Any relative of one of those prisoners-of-war would be treated as an honoured guest at a Remembrance service.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That is first class, from the time. First class.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The Armenians should be remembered. It was the largest loss of life during World War 1 relative to a distinct population, 1.5 million Armenians perished, from a population of 2-3 million. There is state-sponsored denial of the event in Turkey and internationally states don't seem keen to ruffle feathers in Turkey. No-one seems to want to remember. One Remembrance Sunday I'd like to see a particular point made of remembering the Armenians.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmm. Radical that I am, that's not going to work, except in Armenia or countries with large Armenian populations (the States, Russia, France, Georgia, Brazil, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Ukraine, Greece but NOT Turkey!).
The emphasis has to be on the dominant culture, being inclusive from there.
Couldn't find my white poppy to go with the red this year. Most annoying.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Martin
Peace Pledge Union always sells white poppies.
A couple of years ago I decided I did not want to wear any symbol. I still donate (I consider it a disgrace that we ask people to serve and then when discharged they end up relying on charity to survive, so I will always donate). This year I decided for my own mental health I had to donate to a peace charity as well.
Needless to say, my remembrance focuses on the horror of war.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Jengie -
I wear the two poppies when I lead worship. Apart from that I am completely with everything you say.
And I detest "civic religion" - but that's probably a tangent.
[ 13. November 2016, 14:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I used to do the two poppies, in the end, I decided it was nobody else's business to know where I stood or what I have given to charity.
Actually, it goes wider than that. I dislike the sense in which wearing badges becomes a form of proclaiming the goodness we do, or our righteousness to complete strangers. This goes for the pink breast cancer awareness ribbon, the yellow Macmillan daffodil and the Peace Symbol as well as any coloured poppy. I simply feel it is none of the people I pass in the streets fucking business where I stand on this issue. If you want to know then you need the decency to talk with me and not rely on symbols I wear.
If you want to feel good by wearing the badge to say you support something or other then fine but remember Matthew 6:2. Our motives are rarely simple. I will sometimes wear a badge if I can see the purpose, but never just for having given to a charity.
I suppose with poppies it came to the end when I decided people were judging others who did not display them. I wore them as a symbol long after I gave up charity stickers simply because they were a sign of communal mourning and I valued that. When I sensed the judging I wanted people to deliberately undermine it and that was best done by wearing nothing.
There is a very raw nerve here. Maybe because I have always had a sense of being watched and judged by an unseen viewer.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That's when he died. They had a truck full of German boys, taking them out to work on farms. Crashed a train into it. The newspaper articles from 1945 say accident. We don't know really.
Right. The Americans staged a train crash in order to execute a small number of German POWs. Seems a little baroque.
quote:
I have no idea what cause to pursue. Except peace and general disapproval of wars, soldiers etc. And prizing the family I have got.
Don't forget "insinuating that my family member might well have been the victim of an American war crime."
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I'm another that stopped wearing a poppy a few years ago as it was beginning to feel almost compulsory. I am happy to donate to the Legion, though.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I wear the two poppies when I lead worship. Apart from that I am completely with everything you say.
And I detest "civic religion" - but that's probably a tangent.
Can you explain why you wear them when leading worship yet feel uneasy about wearing them otherwise?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm not particularly uneasy about wearing them at other times, although I don't much like wearing any badges which proclaim my position on "issues". To be honest though I can't be bothered to pin them onto my clothes! In church I feel I must wear a poppy as to desist would cause offence among the congregation; however by wearing the white one as well I am hoping to make a positive statement about peace.
What I detest is the way in which many aspects of Remembrance services make it appear (I choose my words carefully) that the churches endorse the notion of war - by including parading soldiers, the flying of colours, bands and fanfares, prayers which do not seem to question the notions of warfare and patriotism, the constant talk of "sacrifice" of people who in many case were frightened conscripts who had no option but to fight ...
I would much prefer civic remembrance commemorations to be secular - which doesn't mean that they cannot contain any Christian (or other religious) reflection.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm proud of you BT.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm relating less and less to Remembrance Day commemorations and 2 min silences, etc., as time goes by. It's not a part of the society I see around me. There's something strangely exclusive about it all.
When it comes to churches seeming to 'endorse the notion of war', Remembrance Sunday (and its associated events) represents one of the few occasions when many ordinary people actually expect the participation of the state church, so it would be difficult for the denomination as a whole to take a step back.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The emphasis has to be on the dominant culture, being inclusive from there.
You mean *has to be* in the regrettably-so sense not in the ought-to-be sense I think? Surely the ought to be should be standing up for the most marginalized, the most injured, the most stigmatized.
Using Remembrance Day for the most forgotten *has to be* right.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Today, at our Remembrance Services, I highlighted not only those who died but those who lived. Those who served in the forces, risking their lives, and yet survived. Those who stayed at home because they were in Reserved Occupations, or were bringing up a family - those whose small, unspectacular acts of heroism meant there was a home for the troops to return to after battle was done. All those who did their best, whatever it was, even when they were scared by world events they could not understand or explain. Somehow that seemed fitting at this time.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The emphasis has to be on the dominant culture, being inclusive from there.
You mean *has to be* in the regrettably-so sense not in the ought-to-be sense I think? Surely the ought to be should be standing up for the most marginalized, the most injured, the most stigmatized.
Using Remembrance Day for the most forgotten *has to be* right.
Definitely mdijon. Lest we forget.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, at the service I went to, Mother Vicar took great care to 'remember the forgotten', and mentioned a number of 'forgotten wars' in her sermon, as well as remembering the huge numbers killed in the major conflicts of 2015 alone.
Being held in the parish church of a small suburban village, which still contains families related to those listed on the War Memorial, it was also entirely appropriate that the names of those local lads killed in WWs 1 and 2 were read out, along with that of a more recent casualty - a 23-year old killed in the Falklands War of 1982.
All in all, a sombre, moving, well-balanced, and challenging service.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I can't find anything online to support this, but I have a recollection that relatives of Turkish soldiers who fought at Gallipoli are allowed to participate in the ANZAC Day parade. There is a substantial Turkish immigrant population in Melbourne who must have lobbied for this I suppose. Everything to do with these events and remembrances is organised by the Returned Services League here. That said, online statements about what is remembered limit memorial to those who served in Australian forces or for our cause.
Found some evidence - the Turks are a special case
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I took part in the Remembrance parade with Guides, colour party, uniforms and all. The most mind-boggling bit is all the the clubs, societies and businesses that feel they have to lay a wreath: Army cadets, police, uniformed groups I get. I even understand the local secondary school remembering an ex-student who died in Afghanistan. But the Art Society, founded in 1975? A group committed to conserving a local mansion, founded in the 1980s?
That parade is in the afternoon with parade to civic church service away from the normal congregational services. We don't tend to take the Guides into the service; an hour of parading and standing in silence watching 40 wreaths being laid is enough.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
I note that one I remember is Ferenc Békássy, an Hungarian who was at King's College, Cambridge. He returned to Hungary, joined up, and was killed very shortly after reaching the front in 1915. His brother was to later marry my great-aunt and I can remember various relatives over the years showing me his name in King's College chapel (alone on one wall, on another are the dead who fought on the British side).
Too many died for nothing much.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That's when he died. They had a truck full of German boys, taking them out to work on farms. Crashed a train into it. ...
That really does sound like a tragic accident rather than anything purposive such as ''They .... crashed a train into it" would grammatically imply.
North East Quine, on your reference to a preserved prisoners' bible, there is a famous chapel built by Italian prisoners on Orkney. I've never been there, but there is a website here with pictures.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
But the next 2 sentences are: The newspaper articles from 1945 say accident. We don't know really. I read the whole as Dave W did - and asked myself why anyone would bother to stage a train crash when other means would be much easier and cheaper.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm not particularly uneasy about wearing them at other times, although I don't much like wearing any badges which proclaim my position on "issues". To be honest though I can't be bothered to pin them onto my clothes! In church I feel I must wear a poppy as to desist would cause offence among the congregation; however by wearing the white one as well I am hoping to make a positive statement about peace.
What I detest is the way in which many aspects of Remembrance services make it appear (I choose my words carefully) that the churches endorse the notion of war - by including parading soldiers, the flying of colours, bands and fanfares, prayers which do not seem to question the notions of warfare and patriotism, the constant talk of "sacrifice" of people who in many case were frightened conscripts who had no option but to fight ...
This. I find the "gave their lives" language problematic; apart from a few suicidal sorties to save comrades the majority had their lives taken away from them. For all the talk of dying for ones country, the actual practice of war is aimed almost exclusively at trying to ensure that instead the bloke on the other side gives his life for his country.
[ 14. November 2016, 11:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I find the "gave their lives" language problematic; apart from a few suicidal sorties to save comrades the majority had their lives taken away from them.
My wife and I were saying exactly the same thing in the car yesterday evening.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Of course, there was a deliberate WW1 narrative that directly sought to link soldiers' deaths to Christian symbolism.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I presume the aim of that - in a country where Christian discourse was far more generalised than it is today - was to try and give meaning and value to so many senseless deaths. Indeed it could have been the only available way of expressing things at that time.
Nevertheless my feeling is that this has had the effect of almost sanctifying "the fallen" (another phrase I dislike), quite apart from denuding the phrase "greater love has no man ..." of its implied inference, "But Christ gave his life for his enemies".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I would suggest that a lot of that was an attempt to give legitimacy to warfare and to state policy regarding war. Remembrance has gone beyond the act of remembering. I can't even begin to imagine how many heretical sermons and addresses I've heard comparing killed soldiers to Jesus going to the cross. It's become such a habit that we don't even filter it through a critical process any longer. That, and the fact that 'protestant' denominations seem to have prayers for the dead with about as much pomp and ceremony as one could possibly hope to muster, yet at the mere mention of All Souls they have some kind of melt down. Again; there is a total and utter disconnect of any form of critical thinking about what they are doing and why, which would lead me to begin believing that it is actually all about nationalism, which is something I find problematic anyway.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I presume the aim of that - in a country where Christian discourse was far more generalised than it is today - was to try and give meaning and value to so many senseless deaths. Indeed it could have been the only available way of expressing things at that time.
Nevertheless my feeling is that this has had the effect of almost sanctifying "the fallen" (another phrase I dislike), quite apart from denuding the phrase "greater love has no man ..." of its implied inference, "But Christ gave his life for his enemies".
Just read the words of O Valiant Hearts for full confirmation of that - especially the bit about the deaths being lesser Calvaries.
OTOH it is a lovely hymn and sets me off every time we sing it.*
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In church I feel I must wear a poppy as to desist would cause offence among the congregation; however by wearing the white one as well I am hoping to make a positive statement about peace.
I realise you are being realistic and pragmatic, but why should it offend people that a leader of worship of Christ does not wear a symbol which is not Christian? The cross is the only statement about peace that should be required on any Sunday of the year.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm not particularly uneasy about wearing them at other times, although I don't much like wearing any badges which proclaim my position on "issues". To be honest though I can't be bothered to pin them onto my clothes! In church I feel I must wear a poppy as to desist would cause offence among the congregation; however by wearing the white one as well I am hoping to make a positive statement about peace.
What I detest is the way in which many aspects of Remembrance services make it appear (I choose my words carefully) that the churches endorse the notion of war - by including parading soldiers, the flying of colours, bands and fanfares, prayers which do not seem to question the notions of warfare and patriotism, the constant talk of "sacrifice" of people who in many case were frightened conscripts who had no option but to fight ...
This. I find the "gave their lives" language problematic; apart from a few suicidal sorties to save comrades the majority had their lives taken away from them. For all the talk of dying for ones country, the actual practice of war is aimed almost exclusively at trying to ensure that instead the bloke on the other side gives his life for his country.
Surely if you're in the Armed Services, especially at war time, you know you could be killed at any time? In that sense, by staying where you are, and risking your life, you are offering it for your country if necessary?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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