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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: TV documentary on black Pentecostals
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
The BBC have just screened a documentary about black Pentecostals in Brixton, part of its 'Black Britain' series on BBC2.
The Beeb has been criticised at times for aspects of its religious coverage but I was impressed by this. It let the Penties speak for themselves and gave a moving insight into the life of that particular community.
Do Shippies think this represents a 'coming of age' in the way mainstream media is treating forms if religion that may once have been presented as marginal and odd?
Or is it a one-off?
Would HTB or other more 'establishment' congregation have been treated with as much respect?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It's apparently not a one-off if this sympathetic and to the best of my knowledge accurate article is anything to go by.
But I think these things may get airtime because they have a whiff of the exotic that makes them less personally challenging to many.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's apparently not a one-off if this sympathetic and to the best of my knowledge accurate article is anything to go by.
I am short. It is an accurate statement, but it does not give much information. Neither does that article.
Sympathetic? It isn't antagonistic but, again, too little there to discern much beyond that.
quote:
But I think these things may get airtime because they have a whiff of the exotic that makes them less personally challenging to many.
"Look at those mad bastards, they are not completely mental".
Though, to be fair, it is a difficult line to walk. The most honest effort will have that accusation directed at it.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, I had seen the article about Romany Christians too and wondered whether to connect the two in the OP.
Like Eutychus, I also wonder whether it's easier to make V a more positive, or at least less antagonistic line, when it looks exotic or doesn't involve middle-class white folks such as at HTB ...
However, I've long being saying that black Pentecostals, white-working class Pentecostals and Gypsy Pentecostals are somehow more authentic than posh charismatics - although that does run the risk of being patronising or of inverted snobbery.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I too thought it was an excellent programme, too. I particularly liked the youth leader's comments on baptism: "It's just the same Thames water that gets piped to every house in the street. You go in as a dry sinner, and you come out as a wet one"!
In answer to your question, Gamaliel, "I don't know" - I suspect that the wacky and unusual always make better television than what is normal! But it does follow an equally excellent pair of programmes a year ago about the East London Mosque, so perhaps things are improving.
FWIW my wife and I went to a lecture a year or so back given by the current Head of Religion at the BBC and were impressed by his approach (we were able to chat with him afterwards). This article gives something of the flavour.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've long being saying that black Pentecostals, white-working class Pentecostals and Gypsy Pentecostals are somehow more authentic than posh charismatics.
Ah, so you sup at the table of Professor Andrew Walker (the Orthodox ex-Pentecostal sociologist/theologian) who has often said that charismatics are really posh Pentecostals, but without the working-class "nous".
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, I've long being saying that black Pentecostals, white-working class Pentecostals and Gypsy Pentecostals are somehow more authentic than posh charismatics - although that does run the risk of being patronising or of inverted snobbery.
Yes, I think you're wrong, at least as far as the Gypsy Pentecostals go.
I am very familiar with the Light and Life mission mentioned in my linked article, to the extent of having preached in a Vie et Lumière church and in one of their tent meetings. I oversee some 30 chaplains and perhaps half of them are Light & Life pastors, and I'm regularly in their caravans - was in one last week.
The movement is certainly an extraordinary and genuine one, and exceptional in being an evangelical revival that began in France in the mid-20th century (most French evangelicals are entirely ignorant of this fact). Meet any gypsy in France and they will almost certainly have evangelical christians in their family and have at least a 'cousin' who is a pastor. The movement also has a major social dimension and the change in lifestyle of gypsy christians is often remarkable.
However, like all revivals it is an inch deep and a mile wide. I have plenty of questions about financial transparency, motives, and accurate reporting, and plenty of gypsy inmates from this background in the prison I serve in. Still, if you want to step into a revival experience, go to a Light & Life tent meeting.
(Alternatively, watch - in French - La BM du Seigneur ('The Lord's Ride', trailer) or the follow-up film Mange tes morts ('Eat your bones' - this is a link to the full-length film!). The films are fictional but the actors are non-professionals, the events are loosely based on real life, and are wholly representative in my experience. 'Eat your bones' ends with a baptism).
[ 21. November 2016, 07:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ok - I was being broad-brush ... and yes, I have supped at the table of Dr Andrew Walker ... and like him, grew up in South Wales where, although I wasn't a Pentecostal, I was familiar with Welsh working-class Pentecostalism ...
On the Gypsy thing - yes, the Gypsy churches I've encountered were in Spain in the 1980s and my impression was that the revival there was a mile wide and an inch deep.
That said, it was clearly 'authentic' in the sense that it was obviously a grass-roots thing and very transformative for many of those involved - although some seemed to be going through the motions as it were, because it was expected of them ... but it's always difficult to make those kind of value judgements ...
On the baptism thing, I knew you'd like the youth-pastor's patter in the programme, Baptist Trainfan. I did too, on one level, but it's perhaps an indication of my heading in a different direction that I didn't leap my feet and applaud it but thought, 'Well, ok ... I can see what you're saying but ...'
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That said, it was clearly 'authentic' in the sense that it was obviously a grass-roots thing and very transformative for many of those involved
I apply Luther's "simul iustus et peccator" to all of this, along with Paul's "the Gospel is preached and I rejoice".
I think the fact is that, dare I say it, even HTB, Alpha and the like can be genuinely transformative for at least some of those involved. I put that down to the power of the Gospel, despite the packaging rather than aided by it.
Another way of putting it is that just like those first-century Christians, all of us in various ways are simply struggling, amid our fallenness, to come to grips with the reality of the Holy Spirit at work in our lives and manage it as best we can.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, my point is more about whether we cut black working class Pentecostals or Romanies and Travellers more slack - and run the risk of being patronising - than we do the likes of HTB.
I've seen HTB and Alpha come in for a lot more stick on the BBC than traditional Pentecostalism does ... excellent dramatisations of 'Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit' on TV and radio notwithstanding ...
Jon Ronson did a real hatchet-job on Alpha a few years ago - and one could see why to a certain extent. But even so, would he have done the same thing in a working-class Pentecostal chapel in South Wales or up South Shields, say?
I'm just asking the question ...
To what extent does our sense of what is 'authentic' or what is ach y ... (as in 'ach y fi' to use a Welsh term) derive from our ideological stances?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
As for "transformative", a religious shift from something like RCC to Pentecostal is not unlike joining a cult. Many cults work by offering something different with the bones of the familiar. Revivals are a lot of show and glow on the surface without much substance, IMO. And I am admittedly very skeptical of emotional conversions.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Then you should visit a gypsy revival and/or watch Eat my bones.
The idea of a wild youth followed by a baptism in one's early 20s following which one settles down and behaves is now well-established in gypsy culture and actually seems to work in many cases. Gypsies are by nature an emotional people. In terms of transactional analysis they are hugely Child.
As far as I can tell, gypsy christianity does not bear the hallmarks of a cult but does bear the hallmarks of a revival in that it leads to social transformation - increase in literacy, decrease in crime, better social inclusion, etc.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
One man's revival is another man's cultic phenomenon ...
I think the comment from the RC priest quoted in the BBC article is a telling one, rather than condemning the movement and decrying the way it's drawing people away from the RCC and into sectarian territory, he's saying, 'These people have got something. We might not like all of it but there are aspects here the RCC can learn from ...'
I've heard similar sentiments from RC clergy in Latin America where Pentecostalism has drawn away many cradle Catholics into new and fissaporous Protestant sects ...
I think there are aspects of any religious tradition that can turn cultic - and I'm sure that's true within Buddhism, Islam, Judaism and other world faiths as well as Christianity.
Coming back to the somewhat Dead Horse comment on baptism I made ... thinking about it, I'm not sure most sacramentalists would consider the water they use to be anything but Thames Water or whatever water it happens to be ... except ...
If one wanted to, one could pick holes in a lot of what the Pentecostals interviewed on the programme were saying. A Calvinist could have a go at them for being too Arminian, they could be seen as overly pietistic, too close-knit, too this, too that, too the other ... as could anyone else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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lowlands_boy
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# 12497
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Posted
Getting back to the original question, most feedback I've read has said that the BBC's treatment of religious issues has improved a lot under the appointment of Aaqil Ahmed. Perhaps, despite the furore about him being a Muslim, he's just been doing a really good job, and as an "outsider" (in the sense of not being a Christian) has been quite happy to focus on different areas of the Christian faith.
Apparently he recently announced he is leaving the BBC though, effective in a few months.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Jon Ronson did a real hatchet-job on Alpha a few years ago - and one could see why to a certain extent. But even so, would he have done the same thing in a working-class Pentecostal chapel in South Wales or up South Shields, say?
I've read the Ronson articles and also heard him speak on the topic, and would tend to disagree that it was a hatchet-job. IME a reasonable number of people have the same reaction to Alpha as he did (especially around the way in which the 'holy spirit weekend' functions as a locus)
To your comparison; I suppose the difference would be the extent to which the original experience of the 'working class Pentecostal community' was contrived. Of course all movements end up becoming encultured, but it often seems that Alpha is intentionally so *from the start* and that is the difference, and I believe what Ronson was picking up on.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Then you should visit a gypsy revival and/or watch Eat my bones.
The idea of a wild youth followed by a baptism in one's early 20s following which one settles down and behaves is now well-established in gypsy culture and actually seems to work in many cases.
I would be interested in hearing you comment more on this, it seems like what you are saying is that it ends up being framed as a set of cultural expectations? [Also interested in to what extent you believe the initial period of being a 'wild youth' actually plays into the cultural expectations].
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ok, I think 'hatchet-job' was probably too strong a term, Chris Stiles, but I was trying to balance out some of my earlier comments.
I agreed with Ronson's take on the 'Holy Spirit weekend' and would be happy if the Alpha folks got rid of it - it causes more problems than it resolves.
I'm not saying they should ditch the charismatic emphasis, if that's one they want to retain or promote - but there are ways of doing that without building it into the course in such a contrived kind of way.
I also agreed with Ronson's comment that in trying to make charismatic phenomena 'fun' and 'normal' and so on, the Alpha/HTB axis were trivialising the issue - 'speaking in tongues is not fun,' he said, 'It's serious ...'
Yes. If we do believe in supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit and do not see them (or the 'pretence' to them) as 'an horrid thing' as good Bishop Butler did in his famous exchange with John Wesley,* then we need to treat them with more respect than the join-the-dots card-board cut-out Alpha approach ...
* 'Sir, the pretending to special gifts and revelations of the Holy Ghost is an horrid thing, a very horrid thing.'
At least with the black Pentecostals, for all the slight embarrassement and messing about the teenagers displayed when writing their testimonies, they take these things seriously.
As Baptist Trainfan has already observed, the stress on repentance as a component/essential part of baptism and discipleship was very strong. Rightly so.
On the thing about transformation/conversion as part of the teenage/young person rite of passage - that's an interesting one and by no means confined to Romany cultures.
If you look at any culture that has been shaped to some extent by religious revivalism - in its Calvinist or Arminian forms - you'll see an element of that.
The historian Henry Lack traces the standard evangelical born-again experience to the late 1590s, early 1600s ... prior to that the first generation or so of Reformed Christians tended to view conversion more in terms of a switch from Romanism to the new Reformed or reformed doctrines.
Gradually, they began to look for 'signs' of grace among their congregations and among their families - particularly teenagers and young people. So they began to 'preach for conversion' and eventually this led to the adoption of tactics and measures that were intended to achieve that result - as per the revivals of Charles Finney in 19th century New England ...
Across the Baptist churches I knew in South Wales as I was growing up there'd long been an expectation that teenagers would seek baptism in a similar way to how confirmation candidates would be confirmed in Anglican churches.
It was a rite of passage.
You can ratchet that sort of thing up several times in communities such as the Roma and ethnic minority groups where there is an expectation that, were it not for religion, you could easily end up in trouble with the law or involved with drugs, alcohol abuse etc etc.
I've heard the liberal theologian Robert Beckford observe that he is grateful for his black Pentecostal upbringing, even though he no longer shares its assumptions and theology, because otherwise as a teenager he'd have got into crime and drugs ...
Ok, so there weren't drugs in 19th century Wales, but there was booze and there was grinding and dehumanising toil in mine or forge ... Just the sort of thing to encourage the growth in transcendent or revivalist religion.
That doesn't deny or obviate the divine aspect or the providential workings of God the Holy Spirit.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As Baptist Trainfan has already observed, the stress on repentance as a component/essential part of baptism and discipleship was very strong. Rightly so.
Interestingly enough, I felt that they almost lapsed into making repentance "per se" a salvific work (as in "justification by works").
If you see what I mean.
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As Baptist Trainfan has already observed, the stress on repentance as a component/essential part of baptism and discipleship was very strong. Rightly so.
Interestingly enough, I felt that they almost lapsed into making repentance "per se" a salvific work (as in "justification by works").
If you see what I mean.
Yes, that was my (pretty well only) concern about the way they went about things. Well, that and the "wet sinner" gag, which, apart from being a great one-liner, seriously underplays God's part in the conversion process. I think that sanctification (the process by which we take hold (or, rather are taken hold of) by salvation, iyswim, seldom has such a linear, sequential, dynamic. Repentance is much more of a fruit than a seed of regeneration, ime.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Well, that and the "wet sinner" gag, which, apart from being a great one-liner, seriously underplays God's part in the conversion process.
Not when you realise that, like many Baptists, they see Baptism as no more than a public declaration of what God already hath wrought in the individual, together with a statement of what it is hoped He will yet do.
Tugs vigorously at steering wheel to avoid veering towards the Stable for Defunct Equines.
[ 21. November 2016, 12:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On the thing about transformation/conversion as part of the teenage/young person rite of passage - that's an interesting one and by no means confined to Romany cultures.
If you look at any culture that has been shaped to some extent by religious revivalism - in its Calvinist or Arminian forms - you'll see an element of that.
Sure, to an extent - and in the evangelical circles I grew up in there was some expectation that some teens would be converted via an altar call of sorts - while that may not have been mandated as universal, it was certainly felt as among a set of normative maturations into the 'Christian life'.
I was specifically interested in Eutychus' description because of the timeframe over which this evolved into a norm and the extent to which the 'wild youth' took on a greater significance, purely because a dramatic conversion was what was wanted.
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Well, that and the "wet sinner" gag, which, apart from being a great one-liner, seriously underplays God's part in the conversion process.
Not when you realise that, like many Baptists, they see Baptism as no more than a public declaration of what God already hath wrought in the individual, together with a statement of what it is hoped He will yet do.
Oh, I absolutely agree with that, it's just I don't see that sort of thinking referenced in what the youth pastor said. But, of course, he was speaking to specific people at a specific time and in a specific context, rather than giving a theologically nuanced account of his own soteriology. All in all, he seemed a well adjusted, kind, loving man who cares deeply for those entrusted to him, and wants them to grow to be mature disciples of Jesus.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
Without labouring the point about the different attitudes taken by programme makers to this group of Pentecostals in contrast with Charismatic christians of the HTB stripe, I do note that the older ladies seemed to be involved is some sort of street ministry no too far removed from "Healing on the streets", which has been pretty well caned on these boards. Which does seem, to me, to suggest that there are some dual standards (Shock! horror Double standards in the media! The apocalypse is just around the corner).
I'm not sure that I buy into Gamaliel's idea that pentecostals are more authentic than charismatics. I think Pentecostals are authentic to their context, but that Charismatics are equally authentic to their, different, context. Emphasising the sense of "fun" or, if you like "divine playfulness" is a sign of such authenticity, rather than a negation of it, istm. We have fun at home, at the (insert sport of choice) match, when we meet up with our mates. Why should only black people be allowed to have fun in their churches/christian expression?
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Yes, he did - and he had certainly invested a lot of time and energy into the young people.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, there were holes to be picked if one had a mind to pick them ...
One could argue that there was an element of superstition in their approach to the 'dedication' of infants, for instance - but a similar charge could be made against many paedobaptists ...
There was also an element of prosperity gospel in their approach to tithes and offerings, although they made it clear that such 'blessings' they 'harvested' were not necessarily financial ...
The yoof Pentecostal church struck me as rather odd, but that might be an age thing - I'm sure I'd find most youth-oriented congregations rather difficult to take ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I've just found out something interesting.
Churches Together in England has six Presidents: Anglican, RC, Free Church, Orthodox, Pentecostal and one which lumps together diverse constituencies from Lutheranism to New Churches and the Quakers.
Bishop Eric Brown of last night's programme is currently serving his second term as the Pentecostal president. An impressive man!
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Jolly Jape - I accepted that I might be being a little unfair - I do feel somewhat uneasy classifying middle-class charismatics as 'inauthentic' ...
I think a better term might be 'self-conscious'.
I'm not saying that only black people or working-class people should have 'fun' in church, but it's the way that middle-class charismatics are so self-conscious about it that bugs me.
'Oh, look, we're having such fun ... church should be such fun ... I'm going to tell a god-awful joke now and that's going to be great fun ...'
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
The reality is that 99.9% of the time it's not fun at all. I'd rather watch a plank warp.
If I want to have fun I go down the pub or play a game or something.
That isn't to say that I think that church services should be endured rather than enjoyed, but its the self-conscious way that many contemporary charismatics try to ratchet up the fun-quotient that bugs me.
I have a lot of sympathy with la vie en rouge's reaction to the French cathedral service, but on one level one could argue that the regulars there were gaining nourishment from the Mass itself - the Body and Blood of Christ as they'd see it - rather than any extraneous attempts to whip up some fun and frivolity.
Pretty crap as the service sounds to have been, it was probably 'authentic' to their context in a way that a 'Clown Mass' wouldn't be ...
It's all about context.
I'm not saying that middle-class charismatic outfits can't be great places to be - they can - but I do have a quibble about some of the self-conscious attempts to make things 'fun' or 'relevant' or whatever current fad it is that they are following.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Two thoughts.
1. One influential member of our church quite pointedly says, "I don't do fun". That's a shame, as there is a place for (limited) light-heartedness in church life, even within worship. Indeed, at times it can stop us from taking ourselves too seriously.
2. To expect "fun all the time" is wrong - life is too important for that and, as Gamaliel says, most of it is pretty prosaic. It's a bit like saying that church life should reflect all the exciting bits of Acts, without remembering that the book covers a 20-year period rather than just a few miraculous days.
[ 21. November 2016, 13:24: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
1. One influential member of our church quite pointedly says, "I don't do fun". That's a shame, as there is a place for (limited) light-heartedness in church life, even within worship. Indeed, at times it can stop us from taking ourselves too seriously.
IME light-heartedness emerges naturally, it's trying to organise it top down that makes it ludicrous and cringe worthy (see also 'bloke' culture in certain con-evo circles).
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think there are aspects of any religious tradition that can turn cultic - and I'm sure that's true within Buddhism, Islam, Judaism and other world faiths as well as Christianity.
That is because a lot of the same mechanism exists in them all. Cults* can be more overt, but they are not unique.
What is bonding in the accepted is brainwashing in the unaccepted, what is stripping oneself bare before God is tearing down individuality, what is team building is indoctrination, etc.
It goes beyond religion, of course. But we separate by motive and that is subjective.
*What defines a cult vs a mainstream religion is not always as knife-edged as is comfortable to contemplate.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, absolutely.
Obviously, within those church cultures which do 'try too hard' or too self-consciously to create whatever it is they are after - be it a sense of fun or togetherness, or a sense of community - then there'll be instances of authenticity as well as cringe-worthiness.
Again, it's down to context.
The way the Pentecostal pastor took a handbag and developed a point/routine around it as to how his congregation might react if a prostitute sat next to them - ie, clasping their handbags closer, was clearly an authentic and 'telling' piece of preaching theatre in his particular context.
If someone else tried to replicate the same thing somewhere else it mightn't work so well or be out of context and inappropriate.
On the 'Street Healing' stuff, yes, as Jolly Jape observes, that was roundly roasted on these boards.
Deservedly so, I'd say.
I don't particularly have an issue with what those Pentecostal women were doing out on the streets - although it looked as if they might be doing the tongues thing a bit too much for my taste - save to observe that:
- The woman they were shown talking to and comforting, although clearly helped by it, could have done with rather more support than a few prayers and hugs. If they have something more to offer than a well-meaning clasp and prayers on the pavement then more power to their elbows.
- If we're going to go out doing that sort of thing then we need also to be prepared to engage the relevant authorities when we encounter instances of real need.
The issue I have with the whole 'Healing on the Streets' schtick is the same issue I have with a lot of charismatic stuff - it becomes faddish and sets trends that take on a life of their own and which become seen as the 'next big thing ...'
Don't get me started on all that cold-reading 'Treasure Hunting' malarkey. I don't know whether to laugh, cry or scream when I hear about that sort of thing. I probably do all three. Simultaneously.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
it seems like what you are saying is that it ends up being framed as a set of cultural expectations? [Also interested in to what extent you believe the initial period of being a 'wild youth' actually plays into the cultural expectations].
Yes I think it does become a set of cultural expectations, or at least one clear option.
I'm not sure about the second half of your question. I attended a screening of Eat Your Bones with the producer, who is of gypsy descent, and that seemed close to what he was saying and is not inconsistent with my observations.
Don't the Amish have a tradition a bit like that?
(Even if you speak good French, Eat Your Bones will probably be a challenge to understand, but it conveys that idea quite powerfully).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
I tried to get this programme on BBC2 last evening but they were showing something entirely different I felt very disappointed. I do' know why they changed the advertised programme.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If you'd hung on for another 15 or 20 minutes, barrea, you would have seen it. They ran it behind schedule but it did run.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I enjoyed it. One thing that struck me was that although the culture might be a bit unfamiliar, in so, so, many other ways it wasn't that different from church life anywhere else. There were three things that particularly struck me. Two have already been mentioned.
1. If you're not repenting, all that will happen is that you'll go into the tank a dry sinner and come out a wet one.
2. The way the pastor used the handbag to get across a telling message. It was also clear from the responses in the congregation that they did get it.
3. The calibre of his wife's pastoral administration.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I am just watching it now (on iPlayer). Initial thoughts are:
1. They are playing up the social and community aspect. It is so not about Sundays only. I think the BBC is always fascinated with communities that are defined.
2. It is part of their Black and British season. I don't think you could do a season on the black communities without some significant consideration of faith, spirituality and the church community.
I think because it is "someone else" not "us" that makes it acceptable to discuss their faith. It seems to come more out of an anthropological perspective rather than addressing the True English Christianity. That is wrong, of course, but it might help them to be able to be positive about it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Can you get access to iPlayer on your computer, barrea?
You may be able to watch the programme there.
Meanwhile, yes Enoch, I agree with all of that.
I'm not too sure about Schroedinger's Cat's final observation. There was a programme about new types of church on the BBC recently - featuring Fresh Expressions type settings, some Polish RCs, some attempts at Christian communal living, Hillsongs ...
Whilst there was more analysis and criticism in that one, I felt they gave the various expressions a fair crack of the whip and the tone was respectful - ie. they weren't taking the mickey out of them.
And some of the participants were pretty posh and plummy come to think of it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think I saw that Gamaliel (or a similar one). It might be I am wrong, but I thought that was definitely more critical, more analytical of the faith/church experience.
But the one last night was very good, very positive (just coming to the end of it now). It still felt like an insight into another culture, about what that culture is like, not about what Christianity could/should/might be like.
That is my perspective. This is what I perceive from my (quite distinctive) position. Others may see it differently. That is not a criticism, just what I get out of it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I don't think it was setting out to be anything other than a snapshot of a particular community, so it wasn't aiming to comment on Christianity more broadly.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If you'd hung on for another 15 or 20 mins, barrea, you would have seen it. They ranit behind schedule but it did run.
Thanks I should have done, but I was able to see the repeat last night, it was a bit late but well worth staying up for. I thought it was very well made and so good to see a programme that that gave a positive view of Christianity without the sneering and sarcasm that usually accompanies such reports. Good to see the way that they were helping people in the community, I felt quite blessed by it.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I am just watching it now (on iPlayer). Initial thoughts are:
1. They are playing up the social and community aspect. It is so not about Sundays only. I think the BBC is always fascinated with communities that are defined.
2. It is part of their Black and British season. I don't think you could do a season on the black communities without some significant consideration of faith, spirituality and the church community.
I think because it is "someone else" not "us" that makes it acceptable to discuss their faith. It seems to come more out of an anthropological perspective rather than addressing the True English Christianity. That is wrong, of course, but it might help them to be able to be positive about it.
They have to be respectful of the minority involved, whereas they - wrongly - don't of the dominant culture.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I liked the programme - especially the inclusive feel of the church.
The BBC aren't replacing the religious head.
The gypsy article has a misquotation about confession.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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