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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Russian anti-gay bill passes, protesters detained
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, Russian Christians can surely see their duty today - to reach out to gay people, offer them succour, shelter them from the attacks of thugs, whether official or unofficial, defend their right to form organizations, welcome them into their churches. Nothing could be clearer!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Trying to track down the quote, but can't.. I believe it was in Randy Shilts' And the Band Played On that an interview with a Soviet diplomat was quoted. The diplomat stated "there is no AIDS in the Soviet Union" and when challenged, went on to say "There are no gays in the Soviet Union."
Which is a chilling statement-- either the guy was in dangerous denial, or he was making some sort of policy statement.
All this to say that the Russian church can't claim anti-gay sentiment as some sort of spiritual mandate.It was going on even when the Church wasn't in power, when the Church was suppressed. Seems more like a sadly stubborn residue of archaic public attitudes.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I said the Orthodox faith in Russia is once again thriving and as such Russia can be considered an Orthodox country and legislates taking that into consideration.
Regardless on whether such legislation violates international treaty obligations or promises within the Russian Constitution?
These issues may be disputed by the legislators of course. But there is a case to answer. It has not been answered; all I have seen is an assertion that there is no case to answer. A short hand way of saying "we're just going to do this, stuff the niceties".
I think you are endorsing a piece of legislation which is backed by the interesting moral principle that our yes should have been no, therefore we are free to change our minds without regard to our solemn and binding promises.
That's not Orthodox Christian morality is it?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ad Orientem--
Have you had a chance to read the first link in my earlier post? It's pertinent, and won't take long.
Thanks.
I opened it but saw it was a poem and decided not to read it. Not really into poetry.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It is never too late to learn.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Your responses remind me of the irrelevant things my kids say and raise when I want them to address something important like going to bed or getting ready for school.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I think I have already explained my own views in this thread. I think there's a lot of false logic in this thread. The first is that no one has actually shown that A is the cause of B. Talk of pogroms and Jews earlier in the thread are used a debate killers.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think I have already explained my own views in this thread. I think there's a lot of false logic in this thread.
You bet.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think I have already explained my own views in this thread. I think there's a lot of false logic in this thread. The first is that no one has actually shown that A is the cause of B. Talk of pogroms and Jews earlier in the thread are used a debate killers.
Well, tell you what, forget all the violence and the Priests who are not expressing anything to do with Orthodoxy when they lead crowds of thugs in violent attacks on gay rights activists, just for a moment, and address the effect this legislation would have on someone in the position of Louise's friend? Or is the odd suicide and life of misery an acceptable price to pay for legal powers to enforce your morality on other people?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
The scapegoating of unpopular minorities is driven by powerful irrational forces of fear and evil and the search for easy and false solutions to complex problems, it has nothing to do with logic.
The church that claimed at various times that Irish immigrants to Scotland were 'all on the dole' and yet somehow 'taking our jobs' wasn't employing logic. It then also pretended to be shocked when a Catholic eucharistic congress was attacked by 'Protestant Action' with lots of their church goers out on the attack. How many examples would you like of how religious persecution works in practice? Denounce a group that is already stigmatised, demand state action against them and then claim 'it's nothing to do with us' like Pilate washing his hands when physical attacks and discrimination increase.
Refusing to discuss anything because historical parallels you don't like have been raised is a simply an excuse not to answer the serious charges against the position you have taken. If you don't want to talk about how state discrimination created an unsafe persecutory society for Jews in Russia, fine, you've been offered other examples of how scapegoating works in different modern day societies and have simply ignored them.
You could, if you wanted to answer this, raise counter-examples of hated minority groups being targeted by church and state to the point where the state passes discriminatory laws against free speech for them, and you could then try and show that in many cases this was harmless and that persecution of such groups had no evil results and violence against those groups didn't increase.
I'd be very interested to see where you could find such examples, and I'd posit that you can't. We know perfectly well from the disciplines of history and politics what happens in such cases, pretending it doesn't happen or demanding to be shown 'logic' for illogical scapegoating behaviour comes across as an excuse to support persecutory measures while pretending they won't have evil consequences.
We also know in heart-breaking detail what happens to gay teenagers in conservative areas who are left isolated, exposed only to information which attacks them, exposed to anti-gay bullying because teachers are afraid to teach against it, and with nowhere to find support from other gay people. They have a higher prevalence of suicide attempts and increased mental health problems. Many drop out of school because school becomes unsafe for them.
Maybe you have some picture in your head of some sort of imagined or real activist that you hate, but you should replace that picture with one of the first young teenager who walks past you, and ask youself if you're happy to have them placed at greater risk of suicide, misery and isolation, if they should happen to be gay. People like them in Russia would be the real victims of the policies you support. What have those kids ever done to you to deserve such lives?
[ 13. June 2013, 12:09: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Sorry, but I still don't see how legislating against minors being prevented from being subjected to gay propaganda, like being told that homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality or being taught about bum sex in sex education lessons, leads to violence against gays or suicides. I certainly wouldn't want any if my children to be subjected to such things, assuming I had children of my own. Such laws, like this or the one banning gays from adopting, may be unpopular in the West but that is only because it no longer defines itself as Christian and thus no longer holds to Christian morality. However, if a nation defines itself as such then it has a duty to govern itself accordingly.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's absurd to say that historical references are debate killers. As Santayana said, those who do not remember the past, are compelled to repeat it.
I think there is a parallel between the historical persecution of Jews in Russia, often instigated by the ruling authorities as a distraction from their own corruption, and the present targeting of gays. In both cases, you have a reactionary and nationalistic drum-beat which accompanies the persecution of some scape-goat, in classic projection style - bad stuff can be projected onto this alien people, and destroyed. It's primitive, and it's surprisingly effective.
In fact, it's going on all over Europe now - especially with the attacks on immigrants and Muslims. Gays provide another target.
Well, denial was always the handmaiden of persecution.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
If attacks on minorities in Europe are rising then I would argue it is due to the failure of western liberal secularism. It has failed the people of Europe, especially if you happen to be white, Christian and straight.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If attacks on minorities in Europe are rising then I would argue it is due to the failure of western liberal secularism. It has failed the people of Europe, especially if you happen to be white, Christian and straight.
Well, you would do. It could never be the fault of over zealous authoritarian governments driven (allegedly) by a religious agenda.
Moreover, where did violence against minorities in Europe come from before western liberal secularism? Did The Annunaki bring it?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If attacks on minorities in Europe are rising then I would argue it is due to the failure of western liberal secularism. It has failed the people of Europe, especially if you happen to be white, Christian and straight.
Yes, straight white Christians are exactly the sort of people being targeted by the EDL, the Front National, Jobbik, and all the rest of them.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think Ad Orientem is partly right. Capitalism is going through one of its periodic semi-collapses, and these often give rise either to war, or to the persecution of minorities, or in fact, often both. I suppose every ruling class wants to distract attention from its own utter failure and corruption - a good way of doing this is to think of some terrible Other who can then be attacked. Look, it's the fault of the Jews/blacks/gays/Muslims!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think Ad Orientem is partly right. Capitalism is going through one of its periodic semi-collapses, and these often give rise either to war, or to the persecution of minorities, or in fact, often both. I suppose every ruling class wants to distract attention from its own utter failure and corruption - a good way of doing this is to think of some terrible Other who can then be attacked. Look, it's the fault of the Jews/blacks/gays/Muslims!
So instead of bread and circuses we have state-approved (or at least tacitly encouraged) beating up on the gayers and darkies. Great... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
They often go together, don't they? Bread, circuses, and let's beat up the darkies and queers. Trouble is, it's often accompanied also by the lowering of wages and other benefits! So you get bread and circuses and beating up darkies and queers and starvation.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Sorry, but I still don't see how legislating against minors being prevented from being subjected to gay propaganda, like being told that homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality or being taught about bum sex in sex education lessons, leads to violence against gays or suicides. I certainly wouldn't want any if my children to be subjected to such things, assuming I had children of my own. Such laws, like this or the one banning gays from adopting, may be unpopular in the West but that is only because it no longer defines itself as Christian and thus no longer holds to Christian morality. However, if a nation defines itself as such then it has a duty to govern itself accordingly.
Then you haven't informed yourself fullly about the law you say you support. This is not confined to what is taught in schools but covers the internet and media ( broadcast and print) - we're talking censorship which will affect society as a whole.
The Russian journalist I mentioned above was sacked simply for coming out as gay already, people like him could now be prosecuted or have publications fined out of existence for coming out and saying that gay people of all ages don't deserve to be persecuted, that they are not mentally ill and that they deserve to be treated fairly. They could be prosecuted for running a story against anti-gay bullying in schools. You can't guarantee that there are no children reading a paper or watching a TV channel. Run a story about what is happening in schools and you could be said to be targeting minors with your information.
To avoid risks like this bulletin boards, TV stations and health information services run scared of the law and go beyond it to avoid the risk of being charged or sued. This very bulletin board you're posting on runs a hugely strict policy on possible libel because it simply can't afford to defend itself even if it might eventually win the case. When Britain had similar but milder laws, schools were afraid to address anti-gay bullying because saying it was wrong could be construed as 'promoting' homosexuality (see what those loose bogey words in legislation do? That was our one). They were afraid to tell gay teenagers they weren't sick or to give them information about where to find support.
This law uses, in the same way as the Pakistan blasphemy laws, a loose concept which can be stretched by hostile authorities to cover many things - services such as counselling for gay teenagers, or general safe-sex advice, or advice about respectful relationships, or testimonies that being gay is OK and shouldn't mean being isolated or alone or hating yourself. It will have a chilling effect as no-one will be quite sure what is covered or not by the law, and everyone will be aware of what a hostile court can do in terms of elastic definitions.
My posts above could be covered by this law if I lived in Russia because a gay teenager could find them on google and read them as being affirming of gay teenagers and telling them they were OK. The people around you on this bulletin board, if they lived there, could risk being arrested for what we discuss with you. If you saw a post you didn't like on this subject, you'd be able to go and turn us into the police and get the board fined out of existence. At the very least you could get the owner harassed by the police. Anything affirming that gay teenagers have the right to information counselling, sex education and support could count as propaganda.
Cutting gay teenagers off from sources of support, affirmation, counselling and advice leads to the isolation and misery I've described to you above. If you can't see how that poses a risk to them, then maybe it's that you don't want to see it.
[ 13. June 2013, 13:44: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Sorry, but I still don't see how legislating against minors being prevented from being subjected to gay propaganda, like being told that homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality or being taught about bum sex in sex education lessons, leads to violence against gays or suicides. I certainly wouldn't want any if my children to be subjected to such things, assuming I had children of my own.
First off, the law doesn't prohibit teaching minors "about bum sex", it just stipulates that only heterosexual "bum sex" may be taught.
Second, do you really not see the connection between insisting that kids be taught homosexuals are an inferior class of human and anti-gay violence? Dehumanizing an unpopular minority almost always leads to that sort of thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Such laws, like this or the one banning gays from adopting, may be unpopular in the West but that is only because it no longer defines itself as Christian and thus no longer holds to Christian morality. However, if a nation defines itself as such then it has a duty to govern itself accordingly.
Does Russia really see itself as a Christian theocracy? Is the next step the banning of all non-Christian worship? Compulsory attendance at Orthodox services? How far do you think the state should go in giving its preferred religion a "leg up" on intellectual competitors? You're obviously comfortable with fines and imprisonment. How much further can the state go along these lines?
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Then you haven't informed yourself fully about the law you say you support. This is not confined to what is taught in schools but covers the internet and media ( broadcast and print) - we're talking censorship which will affect society as a whole.
<snip>
My posts above could be covered by this law if I lived in Russia because a gay teenager could find them on google and read them as being affirming of gay teenagers and telling them they were OK. The people around you on this bulletin board could be arrested for what we discuss with you. If you saw a post you didn't like on this subject, you'd be able to go and turn us into the police and get the board fined out of existence. At the very least you could get the owner harassed by the police. Anything affirming that gay teenagers have the right to information counselling, sex education and support could count as propaganda.
As I mentioned earlier Ad Orientem's claimed opposition to anti-gay violence could itself be considered pro-homosexual propaganda, and since he(?) made that claim on the internet it's obviously available to minors. Yet he(?) claims to support a law he's{?) willing to violate.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
So this actual conversation that we are having here, might well fall foul of the laws in Russia. I suppose Ad Orientem would be content with that - after all, it's all good clean Christian right living, and if we have to censor ourselves, it's worth it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So this actual conversation that we are having here, might well fall foul of the laws in Russia. I suppose Ad Orientem would be content with that - after all, it's all good clean Christian right living, and if we have to censor ourselves, it's worth it.
I suspect most of the Dead Horses board would fall afoul of the new Russian law. It's on the internet and therefore accessible to minors. Of course, any comments denigrating homosexuals would be okay. Only expressing a "pro-homosexual" opinion would raise the censor's ire.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Yet he(?) claims to support a law he's{?) willing to violate.
To say nothing of the law of the faith he claims to follow: love one another.
And then there’s this:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Sorry, but I still don't see how legislating against . . . being told that homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality (snips and emphasis mine) . . . leads to violence against gays or suicides.
Really? You don’t see how passing laws which institutionalize and validate inequality can lead to people being dehumanized, discriminated against, and treated with violence?
Read much early Christian history? Anything about Rome, lions and Christians ring any bells?
[ 13. June 2013, 14:24: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Or about microaggressions, toxic stress, and PTSD if you want modern, scientific reasons for why discrimination is awful on a physical and mental basis.
Also? Would this be a place to talk about the fact that Greece is apparently rounding up trans* people in INTERNMENT CAMPS?!
From that link:
quote:
In May, the official broadcast to publicise Athens Pride was banned as it included a lesbian kiss, while in Thessaloniki, the Metropolitan of the Greek Orthodox Church described Pride as an “unholy and unnatural event”, urging citizens not to take their children and indicating that he would like to see the event shut down. At the end of last year gay men were repeated assaulted by member of the Golden Dawn, sometimes armed with knifes, in the wake of the violent and vicious rabble that saw the opening of the play “Corpus Christi” besieged by Nazis. One MP from the fascist Golden Dawn attacked a journalist, punching him in the face and screeching after him as he escaped “You run away you faggot, you ass-muncher“, while the police silently watched.
Lord Jesus Christ, son of the Living God, save me from your followers!
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Does Russia really see itself as a Christian theocracy? Is the next step the banning of all non-Christian worship? Compulsory attendance at Orthodox services? How far do you think the state should go in giving its preferred religion a "leg up" on intellectual competitors? You're obviously comfortable with fines and imprisonment. How much further can the state go along these lines?
The answer, of course, is genocide, which is part of the Russian "tradition" that Ad Orientem so indiscriminately admires.
[ 13. June 2013, 16:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
From that link:
quote:
In May, the official broadcast to publicise Athens Pride was banned as it included a lesbian kiss, while in Thessaloniki, the Metropolitan of the Greek Orthodox Church described Pride as an “unholy and unnatural event”, urging citizens not to take their children and indicating that he would like to see the event shut down. At the end of last year gay men were repeated assaulted by member of the Golden Dawn, sometimes armed with knifes, in the wake of the violent and vicious rabble that saw the opening of the play “Corpus Christi” besieged by Nazis. One MP from the fascist Golden Dawn attacked a journalist, punching him in the face and screeching after him as he escaped “You run away you faggot, you ass-muncher”, while the police silently watched.
I'm guessing Ad Orientem will be along shortly to invoke Godwin's Law in protest of the Golden Dawn being referred to as "Nazis" and "fascists".
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The answer, of course, is genocide, which is part of the Russian "tradition" that Ad Orientem so indiscriminately admires.
Not true! AO seems to be quite discriminating in these matters. Anti-Jewish pogroms: bad. Anti-gay pogroms: good. Noting the similarity between anti-Jewish pogroms and anti-gay pogroms: double-plus ungood!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ad Orientem--
Have you had a chance to read the first link in my earlier post? It's pertinent, and won't take long.
Thanks.
I opened it but saw it was a poem and decided not to read it. Not really into poetry.
Ok, let's try this another way. It's a poem called "The Hangman", by Maurice Ogden. I studied it in grade school. It's a story poem, and easy to follow. It does rhyme, but that isn't obvious with that particular typesetting. Here's how it starts out:
quote:
Into our town the Hangman came,
Smelling of gold and blood and flame.
And he paced our bricks with a diffident air.
And built his frame on the courthouse square.
The scaffold stood by the courthouse side,
Only as wide as the door was wide;
A frame as tall, or little more,
Than the capping sill of the courthouse door.
And we wondered, whenever we had the time,
Who the criminal, what the crime,
That Hangman judged with the yellow twist
Of knotted hemp in his busy fist.
And innocent though we were, with dread
We passed those eyes of buckshot lead;
Till one cried: "Hangman, who is he
For whom you raise the gallows-tree."
The hangman kills everyone in the town, one by one--until the narrator is the only one left. Then:
quote:
"For who has served me more faithfully
than you with your coward's hope?" said he,
"And where are the others that might have stood
Side by your side in the common good?"
"Dead," I whispered; and amiably
"Murdered," the Hangman corrected me;
"First the alien, then the Jew...
I did no more than you let me do."
Beneath the beam that blocked the sky,
None had stood so alone as I -
And the Hangman strapped me, and no voice there
Cried "Stay" for me in the empty square.
Here is a short film version.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
From that link:
quote:
In May, the official broadcast to publicise Athens Pride was banned as it included a lesbian kiss, while in Thessaloniki, the Metropolitan of the Greek Orthodox Church described Pride as an “unholy and unnatural event”, urging citizens not to take their children and indicating that he would like to see the event shut down. At the end of last year gay men were repeated assaulted by member of the Golden Dawn, sometimes armed with knifes, in the wake of the violent and vicious rabble that saw the opening of the play “Corpus Christi” besieged by Nazis. One MP from the fascist Golden Dawn attacked a journalist, punching him in the face and screeching after him as he escaped “You run away you faggot, you ass-muncher”, while the police silently watched.
I'm guessing Ad Orientem will be along shortly to invoke Godwin's Law in protest of the Golden Dawn being referred to as "Nazis" and "fascists".
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The answer, of course, is genocide, which is part of the Russian "tradition" that Ad Orientem so indiscriminately admires.
Not true! AO seems to be quite discriminating in these matters. Anti-Jewish pogroms: bad. Anti-gay pogroms: good. Noting the similarity between anti-Jewish pogroms and anti-gay pogroms: double-plus ungood!
If by "pogroms" you mean violent acts against groups of people then I support no such thing, be it against Jews or poofs or whatever. I don't, however, believe homosexual relationships are equal to heterosexual ones and I don't believe Judaism is equal with Christianity (being, as far as the ancient faith of the Church is concerned, an apostate sect, having rejected and put to death its Messiah and God).
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
AO--
To truly reject Jesus as Messiah, they'd have to know that's who he was/is. ISTM that generally wasn't the case.
There's a saying: when Jesus comes back as the Messiah, Jews will say "welcome!" and Christians will say "welcome back!"
BTW, re pogroms: have you seen the film "Fiddler on the Roof"? What happened in it is one kind of pogrom.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If by "pogroms" you mean violent acts against groups of people then I support no such thing, be it against Jews or poofs or whatever.
Doesn't that count as "pro-homosexual propaganda"?
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't, however, believe homosexual relationships are equal to heterosexual ones and I don't believe Judaism is equal with Christianity (being, as far as the ancient faith of the Church is concerned, an apostate sect, having rejected and put to death its Messiah and God).
Wow. Been a while since I've come across the old "Jews are Christ-killers" meme. I'm guessing religious freedom is another part of "western liberal secularism" you find distasteful.
Which brings me back to the question you've been avoiding. What limits, if any, are there on how far the state can go in suppressing ideas not sanctioned by the state's preferred religion? You've already stated support for censorship and suppression of pro-gay (and presumably pro-Jewish) publications. What about forbidding groups or assemblies of gays/Jews? Mandatory conversion/adherence to the Orthodox faith? Some kind of Orthodox Inquisition? Where's the limit, or is there one?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Sometimes, Christianity can seem like a deeply unpleasant body of ideas. When it embraces politics, it often seems to be like this, supporting reaction, authoritarianism, nationalism, fascism, racism, homophobia, and prejudice.
I guess it doesn't have to be like this, does it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Wow. Been a while since I've come across the old "Jews are Christ-killers" meme.
It's always been exceedingly popular in Russia. It's part of their Tradition.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
AO--
To truly reject Jesus as Messiah, they'd have to know that's who he was/is. ISTM that generally wasn't the case.
There's a saying: when Jesus comes back as the Messiah, Jews will say "welcome!" and Christians will say "welcome back!"
BTW, re pogroms: have you seen the film "Fiddler on the Roof"? What happened in it is one kind of pogrom.
Ecunenical bollocks! The time is now. When our Lord returns it will be too kate.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
That logic is as sound as the spelling contained therein.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't, however, believe homosexual relationships are equal to heterosexual ones and I don't believe Judaism is equal with Christianity (being, as far as the ancient faith of the Church is concerned, an apostate sect, having rejected and put to death its Messiah and God).
What do you mean by "equal" here? Obviously, homosexuality is a minority orientation; I've read estimates that roughly 8-10% of people are attracted to same-sex partners.
This minority status is part of the problem. The human race has a long, troubling history of treating outsiders, minorities, and "the different" very badly.
But again, where did Jesus teach, "You're not like us! Get away! We hate you!"
And as for the Jews killing Jesus, well . . . I recall my time within the Church. If I learned nothing else from that experience, I learned this over several Passion seasons: we are all Jews, every one of us.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Ecunenical bollocks! The time is now. When our Lord returns it will be too kate.
I'm guessing then that you don't believe in death bed conversions then. Of course, how would you know that at least some Jews won't recognize Jesus as Messiah and Lord when he comes back. In fact there is no reason to believe that all Christians will recognize him either...
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Ecunenical bollocks! The time is now. When our Lord returns it will be too kate.
That's so-o-o western. How long have you been Orthodox?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If by "pogroms" you mean violent acts against groups of people then I support no such thing, be it against Jews or poofs or whatever.
Doesn't that count as "pro-homosexual propaganda"?
Even if the broad sentiment does (which is open to debate), I think the use of "poofs" should signal his loyalties fairly effectively and get him off with a slap on the wrist and a warning to be more careful.
Seriously, did I just fall through a time warp to the 1970s?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Ecunenical bollocks! The time is now. When our Lord returns it will be too kate.
That's so-o-o western. How long have you been Orthodox?
Silly mousethief, hate transcends hemispheres. It is the true ecunenisn. Ecunemisn. Ekewnemysm. Oh, bother, you you the word. The one about actually giving a shit about your fellows.
Really fucked up my spell check with that one.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
From my point of view, the Patriarch and Putin deserve each other's thuggery.
They are definitely cut from the same cloth, and it's not a cloth that has boded well for Christians down through the centuries -- particularly in the East. Ignorance of history coupled with blind hate -- and you get the makings of an even greater tragedy. How long until the ROC isn't necessary for Putin's (or his sucessor's) machinations? And then watch your icons. Stalin appealed to "Holy Mother Russia" when it suited his purpose during the Great Patriotic War.
[ 14. June 2013, 17:48: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
From my point of view, the Patriarch and Putin deserve each other's thuggery.
But the Russian people do not deserve either one.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Many people are heavily prone to sexual immorality. In fact this is so much so that sexual sin is the origin of almost all other sin. Russia has had enough, as the sexual libertinism of the Yeltsin era showed. I weep at the industrial scale abortion in that country, where it was first legalized by those wonderful feminists Stalin and Lenin, in a concerted effort to destroy the Christian faith and and the family. Same thing is happening in Britain.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Many people are heavily prone to sexual immorality.
This may or may not be so but, in any case, does making sexual immorality illegal actually reduce its occurrence or help the situation in any other way? I interpret Jesus' approach as notably not calling for such actions to be outlawed.
Rather, he spoke of sin being an internal matter; so it'd be perfectly possible for homosexual acts to be completely illegal but for many people nevertheless to sin (as you see it) by looking at someone of the same gender with the intention of fantasising about having sex with them.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The Russian law is not about hatred, even if some use it as an excuse (such should be dealt with by the law). It's about preventing gay propaganda and this is not contrary to the Gospel.
Why is a belief different to yours 'propaganda', exactly?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's a standard conjugation:
I think gays are sinful.
You propagandize about poofs.
He is a flaming poof and should be jailed.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Many people are heavily prone to sexual immorality. In fact this is so much so that sexual sin is the origin of almost all other sin.
"Have an apple".
I know apples look like bottoms, but where is the sexual content in that particular sin?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It sounds very Freudian. I am robbing this bank, because covertly I want to get back into my mother's womb, and raid it for its hidden treasures. Damn, that's almost convincing.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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