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Source: (consider it) Thread: 2014 Winter Olympics - boycott or not?
luvanddaisies

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The Dead Horses thread about the Russian laws stopping people even talking positively about homosexuality, "Russian anti-gay bill passes, protesters detained" is here - this thread's more about what the IOC should do, what it can do, and what we think it actually will do.

Stephen Fry, in this open letter to the IOC & David Cameron, writes far more articulately and cleverly than I could, and from the other side of the Atlantic, George Takei writes, urging his many followers to sign a petition.

Both Fry and Takei argue that the 2014 Winter Olympics should not be held in Sochi, for the safety of both atheletes and supporters ( cf HuffPost UK article here ), but is that actually a possibility?

Are they likely to move it, maybe to Vancouver, maybe somewhere else? Is even fair to ask another city to spend all the money and endure all the hassle that the Olympics seem to need? They're not likely to skip a year, it'd miss out on a big money-making event, so if they didn't hold it in Russia, where would they put it?
The IOC seem to be content with vague statements saying that they're committed to everything being fine. I suppose all they're really bothered about is the money - so maybe it's down to the sponsors to complain, and are they really going to bother?

What other options are there? Athletes not turning up? (unlikely, because their sponsors would probably be disgruntled) Boycotting Russian products? ( most covered online is Vodka ) Going ahead and ignoring it all?

I may be cynical - I mean, I've signed a couple of petitions about it, but I don't really think they'll make much difference. There's too much money invested in the big Sports Day, and it's too huge and unwieldy a thing to be manipulable. Am I being defeatist? Is there a way that the publicity that the sport will bring can be used to influence Russian law? Can a precedent of the Olympics influencing Human Rights improvements in its host countries be set? Or is the Sochi Winter Olympics simply going to grind along past with everyone looking the other way, maybe stopping to wring their hands and say something vague and slightly worthy sounding occasionally?

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seekingsister
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China is rife with human rights abuses and we did not boycott their Olympics. It would also cause much more hurt to the athletes and national Olympic committees who have trained and practiced to reach 2014, than it would to Russia itself.

One of the most powerful images from Olympics past are the two African-American athletes who did the black power salute on the medal podium. Sochi could be the gay communities moment to take the world stage and stand up for themselves. It would be a shame to give up that global platform at such an important moment.

At the very least the IOC should get assurances from Russia that the Olympics events will be safe for LGBT participants and spectators. If Russia will not do that then boycott may be necessary for the protection of gay people involved.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
China is rife with human rights abuses and we did not boycott their Olympics.

But their civil rights abuses did not threaten the athletes themselves.

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Gramps49
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I have mixed feelings about this one. I think with the US boycotted the last Olympic games in Russia due to their invasion of Afghanistan the US athletes were the ones who were hurt.

However Russia needs to be forced to enter the 21st century when it comes to sexual orientation.

If the gay community wants to stage protests in Russia I would be very supportive, but I do not think the US or other countries should refuse to participate because the only ones who suffer are the athletes.

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Gwai
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I rather think top LGBT athletes should be the ones to decide.

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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
One of the most powerful images from Olympics past are the two African-American athletes who did the black power salute on the medal podium. Sochi could be the gay communities moment to take the world stage and stand up for themselves. It would be a shame to give up that global platform at such an important moment.

Except it was a lot easier/safer to make a statement about U.S. segregation in Mexico City than it was in (for example) Alabama. A better metaphor for protesting oppression by a host country would be something along the lines of "[the 1936 Berlin games] could be the [Jewish] communities moment to take the world stage and stand up for themselves". I'm not convinced that would have been either a safe or a workable strategy.

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the very least the IOC should get assurances from Russia that the Olympics events will be safe for LGBT participants and spectators. If Russia will not do that then boycott may be necessary for the protection of gay people involved.

How credible are assurances that essentially say "we will selectively refuse to enforce our laws during the Games, and our skinheads will only target domestic gays for the duration"?

An opinion piece along the same lines:

quote:
Had Putin reignited Russia's abuse of its Jewish citizens, it would have been unthinkable for the IOC to issue a statement suggesting that non-Russian Jewish athletes, pundits, and spectators could go have a blast in Sochi because we'd be spared the anti-Semitic violence sweeping the rest of the country. There's just no way. The American Jewish community and the Obama administration would have (rightly) enacted trade sanctions instantly. There would have been no statement from the State Department like the one issued the same day as the IOC announcement saying that it does not support a boycott of the games.

So how does a pogrom against LGBT people and our allies pass muster in 2013?



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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

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Unless I'm terribly mistaken, it's hard to compete in the giant slalom if you've had the shit beaten out of you by a bunch of homophobic thugs. "The only ones who suffer are the athletes" rings kinda hollow when that suffering could be loss of limb or life.

[x-post with Crœsos)

[ 07. August 2013, 15:57: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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luvanddaisies

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
but I do not think the US or other countries should refuse to participate because the only ones who suffer are the athletes.

So what about those pressing for the IOC to decide to move the event to another country? I think it's highly unlikely unless there's actual financial incentive to the IOC to do so, but if it were to happen it could put a lot of pressure on Putin's government and on that particular law specifically, having spent all the money on getting ready to host, then for it to be found to be a waste.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
China is rife with human rights abuses and we did not boycott their Olympics.

But their civil rights abuses did not threaten the athletes themselves.
Did you read my last paragraph?
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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
One of the most powerful images from Olympics past are the two African-American athletes who did the black power salute on the medal podium. Sochi could be the gay communities moment to take the world stage and stand up for themselves. It would be a shame to give up that global platform at such an important moment.

Except it was a lot easier/safer to make a statement about U.S. segregation in Mexico City than it was in (for example) Alabama. A better metaphor for protesting oppression by a host country would be something along the lines of "[the 1936 Berlin games] could be the [Jewish] communities moment to take the world stage and stand up for themselves". I'm not convinced that would have been either a safe or a workable strategy.

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the very least the IOC should get assurances from Russia that the Olympics events will be safe for LGBT participants and spectators. If Russia will not do that then boycott may be necessary for the protection of gay people involved.

How credible are assurances that essentially say "we will selectively refuse to enforce our laws during the Games, and our skinheads will only target domestic gays for the duration"?

An opinion piece along the same lines:

quote:
Had Putin reignited Russia's abuse of its Jewish citizens, it would have been unthinkable for the IOC to issue a statement suggesting that non-Russian Jewish athletes, pundits, and spectators could go have a blast in Sochi because we'd be spared the anti-Semitic violence sweeping the rest of the country. There's just no way. The American Jewish community and the Obama administration would have (rightly) enacted trade sanctions instantly. There would have been no statement from the State Department like the one issued the same day as the IOC announcement saying that it does not support a boycott of the games.

So how does a pogrom against LGBT people and our allies pass muster in 2013?


I wouldn't speak for gay athletes myself. I imagine that if I'd trained my entire life for something, and it turned out to be hosted in a homophobic country, I'd be pretty conflicted. Johnny Weir, a gay figure skater with a Russian husband, has said he will attend no matter what.

However if Russia will not agree to protection for gay athletes and spectators during the event, then I think a boycott is reasonable.

It's also worth noting that the World Athletics Championships take place in Russia starting this week. This will be a good litmus test to see how safe Russia is for foreign LGBT athletes.

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Og, King of Bashan

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Croesos:
quote:
A better metaphor for protesting oppression by a host country would be something along the lines of "[the 1936 Berlin games] could be the [Jewish] communities moment to take the world stage and stand up for themselves". I'm not convinced that would have been either a safe or a workable strategy.
Several Jewish groups advocated a boycott, although there were Jewish athletes on the 1936 U.S. Olympic team. Most notably Sam Stoller and Marty Glickman, two Jewish sprinters who were replaced on the 4x100 relay team at the last moment by Ralph Metcalfe and Jesse Owens. (It is widely speculated that it was an anti-Semitic move on the part of the coach.) Owens, for his part, thought that the substitution was unfair, as he had already won three medals. Owens has gone down in history as the guy who went to the Nazi's track and kicked their asses. It is likely that the team without the substitutions would have still won the gold, giving Stoller and Glickman a chance to do the same thing. Too bad that didn't happen.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Are they likely to move it, maybe to Vancouver, maybe somewhere else? Is even fair to ask another city to spend all the money and endure all the hassle that the Olympics seem to need? They're not likely to skip a year, it'd miss out on a big money-making event, so if they didn't hold it in Russia, where would they put it?

Probably nowhere. An Olympic Games takes years of preparation and I think it would be almost impossible to relocate it with around six months to go.
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Og, King of Bashan

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For anyone interested, here is a link to a fascinating online exhibit from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, about the 1936 Olympics, the proposed boycott, and participation by black and Jewish athletes.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Spiffy
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Chez Mon Ewe will be boycotting the Sochi Olympics. As well as the major sponsors. And they've been sent letters informing them of this.

Why? Because people like me are being attacked by gangs of men and raped to 'fix' their sexuality in Russia.

Now, this may not be important to you. You might not care. You might just really enjoy ice dancing. That is your right as a human being. Always remember the words of Anita Sarkeesian, "It is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects."

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Leorning Cniht
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If the Winter Olympics go ahead, I can't decide whether it would be better to have a complete boycott, or if all the straight athletes withdrew themselves from consideration for the team, leaving several major Western countries represented by teams entirely consisting of gay men and lesbians.

As seekingsister points out, the Olympics don't come round very often, so any individual athlete doesn't get many chances at winning. It is a lot to ask them to give up perhaps their only realistic chance of a medal.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
China is rife with human rights abuses and we did not boycott their Olympics.

But their civil rights abuses did not threaten the athletes themselves.
Did you read my last paragraph?
Does the example of how we responded to China matter, or not? If it does, then it contradicts directly with your last paragraph. If it does not, then why mention it?

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
or if all the straight athletes withdrew themselves from consideration for the team, leaving several major Western countries represented by teams entirely consisting of gay men and lesbians.

I was thinking along these lines.

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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the giant cheeseburger
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In my opinion, the best course would be for all the national committees invited to attend the games, but to support any competitors who choose to personally boycott the games (regardless of whether they are gay or straight) by refusing to name replacements for them. In my opinion this would preserve the sporting integrity (by still restricting the competitors to those who qualified on merit) and be more effective at drawing attention to the grievances than a top-down political gesture, as viewers at home would have TV commentators drag the situation into view every time an event is contested without a notable competitor present.

I recognise that this approach isn't completely worked out, roughly a quarter of the events are contested by pairs or teams where it wouldn't be so simple as that. The decision on whether to withdraw the whole entry or call up the squad's first reserve player would best be handled by a vote of the squad members.

For entire national committees to boycott would be a very awkward situation, because it would lead to subsequent questions around which other countries hosting major sporting events should be boycotted. Should sports in the USA be boycotted over the Obama regime's continued policy of torture at Guantanamo Bay and putting hits out on whistleblowers? Should the Australian cricket team fly home from England now over dehumanising workfare schemes and racist police actions? Should England come here for the second leg of the series so long as refugees are being held on Manus Island?

[ 07. August 2013, 23:39: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

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John Holding

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I'd suggest for maximum pr impact -- given that the games won't be moved and the IOC won't stand up for gay athlete but that Russia is likely to protect the village -- all participating nations quicly revamp their uniforms to feature rainbow colours.

Even moving the games out won't help the situation in Russia, and could well make life even worse for Russian gays who will not only be perverts but anti-Russian perverts.

Seeing an endless stream of rainbows on the podium might make a point.

John

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
I'd suggest for maximum pr impact -- given that the games won't be moved and the IOC won't stand up for gay athlete but that Russia is likely to protect the village -- all participating nations quicly revamp their uniforms to feature rainbow colours.

Even moving the games out won't help the situation in Russia, and could well make life even worse for Russian gays who will not only be perverts but anti-Russian perverts.

Seeing an endless stream of rainbows on the podium might make a point.

John

Or maybe rainbow arm bands, pins, hats, etc. Then they can add them to what they're wearing. (The uniforms may already be designed, even made, by now.) Plus the on-site audience and the folks back home could also wear those.

What happens, though, if a competitor (of any country) doesn't want to wear one? (E.g., they're anti-LGBT; or they're from a country where such a display could have severe consequences, LGBT or not; or they're LGBT and not publicly out; or they're LGBT and afraid it would make it *more* likely for them to be arrested and/or beaten; or they just want to focus on competing.)

Should they be forced to wear a rainbow??

(Just thinking of practical difficulties.)

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
China is rife with human rights abuses and we did not boycott their Olympics.

But their civil rights abuses did not threaten the athletes themselves.
Did you read my last paragraph?
Does the example of how we responded to China matter, or not? If it does, then it contradicts directly with your last paragraph. If it does not, then why mention it?
First of all, the Chinese atheletes were subject to China's human rights regime. There were many stories of children taken from their homes to train, with no access to their families, etc. There were also many residents of Beijing forced out of the city to present a "clean" image to the world. I don't understand why we are sweeping this under the rug because the other athletes who attended weren't directly affected. The Chinese Olympics were no great victory for human rights.

I do not think the athletes should put themselves into danger. I only used China as a precedent for a recent Olympics in which there was controversy over human rights, but that the IOC and national committees chose not to boycott.

The people who lose out in a boycott are the athletes, gay and straight, who have trained for their entire lives to make an Olympics. It should not be gone into lightly. If we want to make Russia change its LGBT policy I do not see why the Olympics is the method for doing so.

As I've already said the Athletics World Championship is taking place in Moscow this week. Why not use that as a test of the country's tolerance? Do we really think they will arrest a gay figure skater who wears a rainbow flag on a podium, in front of the whole world? I don't. But let's see.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Even moving the games out won't help the situation in Russia, and could well make life even worse for Russian gays who will not only be perverts but anti-Russian perverts.


Yes, exactly. The problem is the Russian law, not the Olympics. We need to see the bigger picture.

Obama refusing to meet Putin is much more effective than an Olympic boycott.

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luvanddaisies

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Or maybe rainbow arm bands, pins, hats, etc. Then they can add them to what they're wearing. (The uniforms may already be designed, even made, by now.) Plus the on-site audience and the folks back home could also wear those.

They're not allowed to wear symbols I think - only their uniforms. There's a rule about it that the IOC has, even covering little badges and stuff. It gets in the way of the money-making, which is what the Olympics and Big Sport is all about.
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The Chinese Olympics were no great victory for human rights.

I do not think the athletes should put themselves into danger. I only used China as a precedent for a recent Olympics in which there was controversy over human rights, but that the IOC and national committees chose not to boycott.


The Olympics should probably not have been given to China, given its human rights record, but the IOC did so, and it's in the past now, so there's nothing that can be done to change that it was there. There were those who tried before the event, but it didn't work. Doesn't necessarily mean they were wrong or that people shouldn't try again.

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

As I've already said the Athletics World Championship is taking place in Moscow this week. Why not use that as a test of the country's tolerance?

Might be useful as a test - but it's not had the attention of the Olympics because it's not as big and commercial an event. There's less money. As much as the athletes work hard and pursue excellence in their sport, it's all about the money. I'd be very surprised if any country actually enacted a boycott after all the money they've spent on funding training for their teams.

In the OP I wondered what should happen and what would happen.
What I think should happen would be them moving the Olympics to another country - it would hit Russia economically and politically, and would make a stand.
This is, however, unlikely given the massive financial burden and inconvenience any city that hosts the Olympics has to endure - nobody'd want to do it twice in a generation.
What I think will happen is nothing at all - everyone will just look the other way, like they did about China's human rights record. They'll wring their hands if people get arrested or attacked, and make vague statements or sound cross, but if they're still making money they'll carry on. There's currently nothing that would affect the IOC or the Sponsors making money, and the national teams won't want to pull their teams out and waste the money they've spent training them, and individuals withdrawing for conscience reasons will be seen as wasting the money spent on them, so are likely to have a negative taint on them in the future.

Maybe that's cynical - but I can't see what else Big Sport is about if it's not ultimately about money.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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luvanddaisies

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Double post- sorry. It's just that this blog post and the articles it links to suggests that the likely action is indeed going to be doing nothing.


[code]--k.a

[ 08. August 2013, 20:48: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
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Sorry, poked "add reply" instead of "preview post", Safari crashed, but appears to have managed to post before it did, and I missed the edit window in force-quitting and restarting. I am a bad person. [Frown]

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Or maybe rainbow arm bands, pins, hats, etc. Then they can add them to what they're wearing. (The uniforms may already be designed, even made, by now.) Plus the on-site audience and the folks back home could also wear those.

They're not allowed to wear symbols I think - only their uniforms. There's a rule about it that the IOC has, even covering little badges and stuff. It gets in the way of the money-making, which is what the Olympics and Big Sport is all about.

This is correct in that there are strict rules about what an athlete can and cannot wear on the podium, but I wouldn't take such a cynical view. I think one of the reasons for the ban is to prevent political statements (of whatever hue) being made on the podium, which I think is a reasonable position to take.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

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No, it really is commercial. Olympic rule 40 bars symbols of non-Olympic sponsors on athletes. So if you are a skier and sponsored by Red Bull, you can't put on a Red Bull cap on the podium when you win a medal, or even (apparently) send out a tweet of you drinking a Red Bull while participating in the Olympics. Although I would not be surprised if the IOC would step in if it thought that athletes were deliberately trying to embarrass the host country- this is supposed to be two weeks of goodwill, no matter what else is going on in the world.

The thing about the Olympics or similar events is that they are carefully run to allow both the organizing body and the host country a chance to shine and hide their warts as best as possible. Which is why I think the chances of an athlete actually being beaten by an anti-gay gang are very slim- it's a PR nightmare that Russia isn't going to let happen. A boycott would be less about athlete and visitor safety, which Russia will be careful to protect. It would be about preventing Russia from getting two weeks to show the world how wonderful it is, without shining a light on its human rights abuses.

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Crœsos
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And now there's this:

quote:
Russia will enforce a new law cracking down on gay rights activism when it hosts international athletes and fans during the 2014 Olympics in Sochi, the country's sports minister said Thursday, appearing to contradict assurances to the contrary from the International Olympic Committee.

<snip>

"An athlete of nontraditional sexual orientation isn't banned from coming to Sochi," Vitaly Mutko said in an interview with R-Sport, the sports newswire of state news agency RIA Novosti. "But if he goes out into the streets and starts to propagandize, then of course he will be held accountable."

Mutko emphasized that the law wasn't designed to punish anyone for being gay or lesbian. But like the Russian lawmakers who authored the bill, Mutko said athletes would be punished only for propaganda, a word that remains ambiguous under the new law.

So aside from any punishment that could be meted out by the IOC for pro-gay statements or endorsements from the winner's podium, the Russian state will (may? there are contradictory statements.) also be imposing criminal penalties. As OKoB points out this will likely be more problematic for Olympic visitors than for athletes.

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mousethief

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"I want to call on people to get a healthy perspective of this disgrace. Our district needs a law that would give troops the right to grab gays on the street and drag them to the city square, where Cossacks would whip them," said Mikhailov, Deputy of the Trans-Baikal provincial assembly, according to local website Chita.ru.

Yeah, our athletes will be perfectly safe.

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Og, King of Bashan

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Are they running a 5000 kilometer cross country ski race as an exhibition event this Olympics? finish line right before you hit Manchuria? Because that is the only way an athlete could end up in the district where that comment was made. Next time someone I know from out of the country is thinking about visiting Seattle, I will warn them to stay clear because of something someone in a rural Florida town hall meeting said.

Putin isn't an idiot. Someone gets hurt when the world's media is there, there is going to be international outrage. I think he will find a way to keep things under tabs for a two weeks. (In fact, that is the whole point of the boycott: they don't want to give Putin two weeks to pretend that everything is OK.)

[ 08. August 2013, 20:54: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"I want to call on people to get a healthy perspective of this disgrace. Our district needs a law that would give troops the right to grab gays on the street and drag them to the city square, where Cossacks would whip them," said Mikhailov, Deputy of the Trans-Baikal provincial assembly, according to local website Chita.ru.

Yeah, our athletes will be perfectly safe.

I've just had to look up where the Trans-Baikal region is. It's in Siberia. As that article goes on to say:

quote:
Alexander Mikhailov is Deputy of the Fair Russia party in the Bail Lake province and no one has ever heard of him, but now he will spark a worldwide discussion," LGBT activist Nikolai Alekseev told Gay Star News.
Is it worth listening to the views of this Mikhailov fellow? He doesn't seem to be a major player.

EDIT: While Googling for Trans-Baikal, Og appears to have expressed my thoughts a touch more eloquently.

[ 08. August 2013, 20:58: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is it worth listening to the views of this Mikhailov fellow? He doesn't seem to be a major player.

It doesn't matter how major he is*, but how representative. I'm having a hard time seeing any officials in Russia right now distancing themselves from this (or any) level of fanaticism.

____
*or where he's located. As if (say) Republican fuckwits in Texas or Florida don't matter to someone voting Republican in Minnesota because they're in Texas or Florida

[ 08. August 2013, 21:19: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

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In 1936, the Nazis used the Olympics as a chance to disguise their antisemitism and to present Germany as a peaceful, tolerant country. Why you think Putin won't be that savvy is beyond me.

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luvanddaisies

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Thank you for sorting my bollocksed code, Kelly. I don't know why I didn't post a properly coded link in my apology.
Sorry.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
For entire national committees to boycott would be a very awkward situation, because it would lead to subsequent questions around which other countries hosting major sporting events should be boycotted. Should sports in the USA be boycotted over the Obama regime's continued policy of torture at Guantanamo Bay and putting hits out on whistleblowers? Should the Australian cricket team fly home from England now over dehumanising workfare schemes and racist police actions? Should England come here for the second leg of the series so long as refugees are being held on Manus Island?

Any more awkward than all the boycotts before? When the western countries wouldn't go to Moscow, and then the eastern bloc countries wouldn't go to Los Angeles?

It's not as if boycotts haven't happened before. And Wikipedia tells me that 22 countries refused to go to the 1936 Olympics in Berlin.

So I don't find the sort of 'if we do it now, it might happen again' arguments terribly enlightening. It's happened before, it still happens in various contexts.

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Anglican't
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China hosted the Olympics more recently still and no-one boycotted the Games then. To my mind, boycotting Russia but not China would say in part 'oppressing gay people is wrong but oppressing an entire population isn't so bad'.
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Mudfrog
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What a shame we have never boycotted sporting events in communist countries for their treatment of Christians, yes, even entire churches.

I wonder what you'll all be saying when the world cup goes to Quatar where Christianity is severely restricted and conversion to faith in Christ is considered a criminal offence that carries the death penalty.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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http://markreckons.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/whataboutery.html

And look, I'm quoting a Lib-Dem criticising Labour politicians!

[ 09. August 2013, 09:55: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
China hosted the Olympics more recently still and no-one boycotted the Games then. To my mind, boycotting Russia but not China would say in part 'oppressing gay people is wrong but oppressing an entire population isn't so bad'.

This seems rather like the common Ship fallacy that you're not allowed to comment on/care about a given topic unless you also comment on/care about whichever other topic someone decides is also of merit.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
China hosted the Olympics more recently still and no-one boycotted the Games then. To my mind, boycotting Russia but not China would say in part 'oppressing gay people is wrong but oppressing an entire population isn't so bad'.

This seems rather like the common Ship fallacy that you're not allowed to comment on/care about a given topic unless you also comment on/care about whichever other topic someone decides is also of merit.
To be fair, I've heard "you're not involved/you've not been there so how can you know anything about it" argument trotted out so often about places (eg, Israel, South Africa, Ireland) and issues (eg, homosexuality, business, education and medicine) to make me wonder if murderers are the only people entitled to decide on the rights and wrongs of capital punishment.

[ 09. August 2013, 13:08: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I think that we should not boycott, but everyone should attend in fuscia Ecce Homo t-shirts. If challenged by Russian enforcers, look innocent and babble about pontius pilate.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What a shame we have never boycotted sporting events in communist countries for their treatment of Christians, yes, even entire churches.

I wonder what you'll all be saying when the world cup goes to Quatar where Christianity is severely restricted and conversion to faith in Christ is considered a criminal offence that carries the death penalty.

Some difference, though. people choose to be Christians. They don't choose to be LGBT.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some difference, though. people choose to be Christians. They don't choose to be LGBT.

So its all right to torture evangelicals because its our fault?

Bollocks to that.

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L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some difference, though. people choose to be Christians. They don't choose to be LGBT.

So its all right to torture evangelicals because its our fault?

Bollocks to that.

I read leo not as saying it's all right to torture evangelicals because it's their fault, but because they CHOOSE to be evangelicals. It's okay to commit human rights abuses against a minority as long as it's a self-chosen minority, rather than one you're born into.

That is how your post reads, leo.

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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Some people did protest about the Olympics going to China because of its human rights record - I know I signed a couple of petitions (yeah, I know, big deal. It's something though, I guess, however ineffectual and lazy it might be), and I think having the World Cup in Quatar is similarly wrong, given their human rights record. (I think my signing a petition about the World Cup would, however, be partly motivated by not wanting there to be endless wall-to-wall coverage of fucking football on every channel everywhere, where the news programme think that who won a game is actually "news", but that's another story).

Anyway, people did protest, and nothing happened. No moving of the Games, no cancelling of it, no teams withdrawing, no protests on the podium. Nothing.
People are protesting again, and probably again nothing will happen - but still, maybe it's better to've said something, even if it is just signing a pointless petition online (I know it's lazy, but what the bloody hell else can I do? I have no influence and no money, so I trundle myself onto Amnesty's links and sign petitions about various things on their website. Probably nothing more than making me feel like I'm not being totally apathetic and appalling, but I'm not sure what else to do. Anyway.

quote:

China hosted the Olympics more recently still and no-one boycotted the Games then. To my mind, boycotting Russia but not China would say in part 'oppressing gay people is wrong but oppressing an entire population isn't so bad'.


or

quote:

What a shame we have never boycotted sporting events in communist countries for their treatment of Christians, yes, even entire churches.

I wonder what you'll all be saying when the world cup goes to Quatar where Christianity is severely restricted and conversion to faith in Christ is considered a criminal offence that carries the death penalty.

Saying something is wrong, even if it was ineffectual to do so last time you said it was wrong doesn't mean you shouldn't say anything at all.
It probably won't make any difference - it's all about money, the athletes are just convenient pegs to hang the money-generators on, but maybe, however unlikely it is, something might eventually come out of people saying it. It's still worth a try.
(hoping this might be cross-posted with someone who'll have said what I'm trying to say with some degree of articulacy, which seems to be utterly eluding me today...)

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some difference, though. people choose to be Christians. They don't choose to be LGBT.

1. I don't think this matters. I don't think it's important whether someone is gay by nature or by choice.

2. I'm not sure that being Christian is exactly a choice either. I can certainly choose to "act Christian" - whether or not I go to church, own Christian imagery, talk about Jesus etc. are actions within my control, but I don't think that I can decide to have a belief.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some difference, though. people choose to be Christians. They don't choose to be LGBT.

So its all right to torture evangelicals because its our fault?

Bollocks to that.

I read leo not as saying it's all right to torture evangelicals because it's their fault, but because they CHOOSE to be evangelicals. It's okay to commit human rights abuses against a minority as long as it's a self-chosen minority, rather than one you're born into.

That is how your post reads, leo.

Absolute total and complete bollocks!! They'll kill Catholics too!

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G.K. Chesterton

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I think having the World Cup in Quatar is similarly wrong, given their human rights record.

Don't get too ahead of yourself- that is 9 years away. If the situation in Russia hasn't changed in 4 years, we may have to talk about a World Cup boycott, as the World Cup is going to Russia in 2018. I don't know how the proposed Olympic boycott is being handled in the English press, but something tells me a proposed World Cup boycott might face some push-back.

FIFA and the IOC have a problem. They want to reach emerging markets, and have decided that their best bet is to stage their events in emerging markets. But many of these emerging markets continue to exist under fairly repressive governments, and in the more liberated ones (speaking about Brazil here,) people are starting to wonder why so much money is being spent on stadiums and hotels when the same amount of money could have a greater benefit if invested in poorer regions of the country.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some difference, though. people choose to be Christians. They don't choose to be LGBT.

1. I don't think this matters. I don't think it's important whether someone is gay by nature or by choice.

2. I'm not sure that being Christian is exactly a choice either. I can certainly choose to "act Christian" - whether or not I go to church, own Christian imagery, talk about Jesus etc. are actions within my control, but I don't think that I can decide to have a belief.

The difference is:

Large numbers might support a boycott where people of a certain ethnic group is persecuted - because you can't change the colour of your skin.

Ditto on sexual orientation.

Christianity is not in the same category. Becoming a Christian, you sign up to possible martyrdom and persecution. The gospels and epistles are full of it.

AND Christians persecute LGBT people; even supporting the death sentence for them - so a boycott on grounds of religion would not get as much support.

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

Don't get too ahead of yourself- that is 9 years away. If the situation in Russia hasn't changed in 4 years, we may have to talk about a World Cup boycott, as the World Cup is going to Russia in 2018.

I'd not really twigged that, sorry.
Football's probably even less likely to respond to the Russian propaganda law - I mean, as a sport it's pretty homophobic, enough that there are either 1) no gay footballers or 2) no footballer who is gay wants to come out (three exceptions named on this thread , one of whom was driven to suicide.
It's hardly likely that FIFA will respond to any sort of pressure if the IOC doesn't, and highly unlikely that football teams would boycott about this issue if Olympic teams don't. And they'd all lose out on lots of money. Of course.

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

I don't know how the proposed Olympic boycott is being handled in the English press, but something tells me a proposed World Cup boycott might face some push-back.

The UK press is, er, reporting that Stephen Fry has sent an open letter, and that's pretty much it, mostly, but there's no evident will to do anything like boycott or rock the boat - too much money invested in training and sponsors and stuff, especially after all the money spent on the previous Olympics [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

people are starting to wonder why so much money is being spent on stadiums and hotels when the same amount of money could have a greater benefit if invested in poorer regions of the country.

We bloody wondered that in London, while the press dribbled on about how wovewy it all was. There are as many different ways of accounting the financial worth-it-ness as there are agendas. Most of the more reliable ones suggest not though, and we've got some fugly stadia knocking around East London now. Lucky us.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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