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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 2014 Winter Olympics - boycott or not?
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
hosting
Please move discussion about Uganda to a separate thread unless you are making a direct comparison with Russia and talking about the Olympic issue.
Thanks,
L
hosting off
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
A Montréal friend is exercised on this issue-- I pointed out that *company name* is one of the sponsors. If *company name* was the recipient of a few thousand scissored cards, I suspected that they would convey their corporate sentiments to the Russian Olympic authorities very quickly.
For a number of reasons, some of which have been mentioned above, I do not see the Russian authorities responding to direct pressure. But, as Karl Marx suggested, it's all about the money.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I believe that is what is referred to as "the tyranny of the majority". It's totally awesome unless you happen to be a minority. If Russia passed a law that all Jewish people had to jump off a cliff, would you respect that too?
Very true, but I still stand behind the democratic principle.
Whilst I find the violence directed at gay people in Russia repugnant, that is where our focus should be, the actual harm being done to people which is not being challenged by the authorities.*
Your hypothetical bears no resemblance to the actual issue at hand, there is no law which criminalises homosexuality, nor does it advocate violence and murder, it is, as has been rightly pointed out, a pretty useless piece of legislation that will probably not have any such desired effect (as kids will be kids and hormones do funny things) you would be better to make the hypothetical comparison to the banning of alcohol adverts for example (I know it is still insufficient a comparison but by far better than the one you give.)
* Hence why I mention the issue of sending aid, trading with, visiting, or allowing international events to occur without boycott, where homosexuality is still a criminal offence and severally punished by the state (ie. any Muslim country) yet there is no boycott or international punishment, hence the misguided hypocrisy.
If a country with a largely Muslim population democratically passed a law that said that all children were not to be exposed to Christians or Christianity would you support that law as well?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
If a country with a largely Muslim population democratically passed a law that said that all children were not to be exposed to Christians or Christianity would you support that law as well?
It is their democratic decision, and as long as I continue to campaign against, and treat the same, all countries which restrict the freedoms of Christians then there is no hypocrisy...
Don't forget I have said I will respect the democratic principle until such time as equality in boycott and action is being taken because to do otherwise is hypocrisy... I don't support this law (don't think that it is particularly harmful however) anymore than I support the public execution of gay people in Saudi, or the latest words of ++Ntgali. However, I am opposed to unequal action, and therefore, until such time as the plight of all gay people is being given the attention we are giving to this small Russian issue (in terms of boycotts, stopping any aid, etc.), then I will stand behind Russia's democratic decision to introduce a law which doesn't advocate violence towards others.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
That's like saying there's no point in feeding some hungry people unless you can feed all hungry people now. Why did Jesus do the miracle of the loaves and fishes when the hungry in China weren't fed at the same time. Was he being hypocritical?
What's your schedule for boycotting every country that discriminates against Christians? Spell out the time table. If you don't have one, this is just an excuse not to do anything.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
If you are opposed to unequal action, you are opposed to any action at all.
Because the world is full of problems and injustice. There must be literally MILLIONS of worthy causes out there. You expect each of us to distribute our time and effort evenly across all of them?
I give regularly to 5 or 6 charities. Are you saying that's wrong because there are hundreds of others just in my own country that I don't donate to?
This is why I get so frustrated and annoyed every time that a Shipmate trots out this 'oh, but you can't deal with A unless you also deal with B through Z at the same time'. It's asking for the impossible. We all prioritise, and if we didn't the result would be complete and utter inertia.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be gone for a while because I really should go and post on every single other message board on the internet before taking another turn here.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
Well, the IOC's commitment to making money and not rocking the boat persisits. It'll all be fine, just don't be gay at the Olympics.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be gone for a while because I really should go and post on every single other message board on the internet before taking another turn here.
Especially regarding your last paragraph, you are being absurd!
With the act of giving and physically doing, it is completely impossible to give to every charity and do everything, we do have our own interests and things which we support but that does not therefore negate you from taking all possible action within that sub-section which is of your interest, in that whilst I may have made LGBT rights an issue I campaign about and thereby do not give my time or money to WaterAid, I will do my utmost to ensure that I campaign on every area of LGBT rights and do not just advocate in one small section, hence why if you are going to kick up a fuss about one issue then you need to bring a light to bear, and pressure, upon those other related issues. If you call for a boycott of Russia, call for a boycott of every other place in the world which acts as Russia does or even worse does not give even the minimum of human rights to LGBT peoples.
So whilst I wait for you to return from your misguided ad absurdum statement, I hope that my clarification of my position will actually help you to understand that I am not advocating everyone fights for everything, but that when talking about those issues we care about we do not do so in a hypocritical and part-bit fashion but take care to ensure that we bring to light every incident of that which we campaign about, as in this topic anti-gay legislation and action all over the world not just in Russia because it happens to be hosting the winter games or because it is a semi-European country and therefore not racist to criticise or whatever reason people use to justify hypocrisy and half-hearted campaigning.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
But even with a given area, one must choose. I don't post on every Christian-themed message board. I don't post on every Tori Amos message board. I don't give to every children's charity, or every organisation working to provide clean water.
It doesn't matter how you define your subset, it is always possible to define a different smaller subset. There are over 200 countries on this planet, and frankly, no, I don't believe that anyone can keep track of what's happening to gay rights in all of those countries other than a professional, well-resourced organisation where it is literally their JOB to keep track of what is happening to gay rights all over the world.
For those of us who have other jobs, we'll notice some countries more than others. Just as we'll notice some endangered animals more than others.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sergius-Melli - I did point out, badly (sorry, Louise), without much effort, that there was a current campaign to withdraw aid from Uganda, and if I bothered to look I could find other initiatives.
Some of the impetus for the boycott of the Winter Olympics in Russia is the recent law change and the gearing up for those Olympics. There have also been continuing protests following similar recent Ugandan law changes with little media attention. The UK Government failed to follow through on threats to withdraw aid should this law be passed, which makes sense of the current e-petition.
I did also find other boycotts and protests, but they tend to be triggered by law changes or a case attracting attention. As is happening with the campaign for an Olympics boycott.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Especially regarding your last paragraph, you are being absurd!
With the act of giving and physically doing, it is completely impossible to give to every charity and do everything, we do have our own interests and things which we support but that does not therefore negate you from taking all possible action within that sub-section which is of your interest, in that whilst I may have made LGBT rights an issue I campaign about and thereby do not give my time or money to WaterAid, I will do my utmost to ensure that I campaign on every area of LGBT rights and do not just advocate in one small section, hence why if you are going to kick up a fuss about one issue then you need to bring a light to bear, and pressure, upon those other related issues. If you call for a boycott of Russia, call for a boycott of every other place in the world which acts as Russia does or even worse does not give even the minimum of human rights to LGBT peoples.
So whilst I wait for you to return from your misguided ad absurdum statement, I hope that my clarification of my position will actually help you to understand that I am not advocating everyone fights for everything, but that when talking about those issues we care about we do not do so in a hypocritical and part-bit fashion but take care to ensure that we bring to light every incident of that which we campaign about, as in this topic anti-gay legislation and action all over the world not just in Russia because it happens to be hosting the winter games or because it is a semi-European country and therefore not racist to criticise or whatever reason people use to justify hypocrisy and half-hearted campaigning.
But this is continuing the concern trolling. There are two reasons to boycott Russia .
1: It's there. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. The question is whether it's a step in the right direction.
2: It's the Olympics. And this is the important one. The Olympics are a great big symbolic thing that draw the attention of the world - and saying that some things are not on are most effective when you don't have the direct power to change them at large symbolic events.
Even if you want to know the answer to "Why start there?" the answer is "Because the Olympic Games are not in any other country right now."
(And why is Russia more important than China here? China didn't suddenly decide to make things spectacularly worse).
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Anyone who thought they didn't really mean it, or that the attitudes espoused were confined to a political stratum and remote from public opinion should read and weep - I nearly wept when hearing it:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/aug/15/yelena-isinbayeva-green-tregaro-rainbow-gesture
I've been very interested in Russia since University - including doing a degree in Russian and spending a year there - and this sort of thing epitomises why, with heavy heart, I decided I couldn't live there.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Anyone who thought they didn't really mean it, or that the attitudes espoused were confined to a political stratum and remote from public opinion should read and weep - I nearly wept when hearing it:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/aug/15/yelena-isinbayeva-green-tregaro-rainbow-gesture
OMFG. If that's all it takes to be disrespectful to your country, Yelena Gadzhievna, your country doesn't deserve respect.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Not just Gadzhievna.
Russia's Interior Ministry has joined in.
Whether this includes Emma Green Tregaro's rainbow-painted nails remains to beseen.
In other news... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
In other news...
He is the constant companion of my wildest carnal thoughts......
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Anyone who thought they didn't really mean it, or that the attitudes espoused were confined to a political stratum and remote from public opinion should read and weep - I nearly wept when hearing it:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/aug/15/yelena-isinbayeva-green-tregaro-rainbow-gesture
They discussed this on the BBC's coverage of the Athletics Championships. Interestingly Michael Johnson said that Isinbayeva is backed by a group of wealthy well-connected people (as in paying for her training) and they are linked to Putin, so that she was basically spouting the party line on their behalf and to keep herself in their good graces. It didn't really make sense for her to discuss this topic so perhaps there's some truth in that - someone put her up to it or she knows that her sponsors will reward her for saying that kind of nonsense.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
[sarcasm] Well this is reassuring! [/sarcasm]
quote:
The Russian government assured the IOC on Thursday that it will not discriminate against homosexuals during the Sochi Olympics, while defending the law against gay "propaganda" that has provoked an international backlash.
The IOC received a letter from Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Kozak giving reassurances the host country will comply fully with the Olympic Charter's provision against discrimination of any kind.
"The Russian Federation guarantees the fulfillment of its obligations before the International Olympic Committee in its entirety," Kozak said.
However, Kozak did not back down on the issue of the new law, which penalizes anyone who distributes information aimed at persuading minors that "nontraditional" relationships are normal or attractive.
The law applies equally to everyone and "cannot be regarded as discrimination based on sexual orientation," Kozak said.
So the law, in its majestic equality, forbids both gays and straights from saying gay people should be treated like human beings. So very egalitarian!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So the law, in its majestic equality, forbids both gays and straights from saying gay people should be treated like human beings. So very egalitarian!
Both the rich AND the poor are forbidden from sleeping on park benches.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Artist who painted Putin in underwear flees Russia
MOSCOW (AP) — A museum director says an artist whose paintings depicted Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev in women's undergarments has fled the country.
The director of St. Petersburg's Museum of Power, Tatiana Titova, said Wednesday that Konstantin Altunin left for France and was planning to request asylum there. Authorities removed four of Altunin's satirical depictions of Russian politicians on Monday and shut down the exhibition.
You know, it would be easier to refrain from making certain Godwin-violating analogies if the Russian government would stop doing stuff like this. Are they deliberately copying the twentieth century's most infamous government, or is it simply that "great[ly authoritarian] minds think alike"?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Well, they had their own Stalin, doncha know. No need to look for imports.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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