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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Stooshie in Scottish RCC
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
we seem to have a right stooshie in the RCC in Scotland.
A parish priest in Lanarkshire is facing a Church penal judicial process after the publication of a book written by him detailing alleged homosexual bullying in the Scottish RCC.
He has been suspended from parish ministry. His suspension has been followed by a mass (both senses) walkout by parishioners in support of their priest. The Bishop is now threatening to close the church involved.
The cry of the parishioners is that the church (or the Church?) belongs to them, not the Bishop. How protestant of them.
Seems to be an own goal by the hierarchy. Is this evidence of the laity finally rising up against the clerical establishment? Will there be a new Reformation?
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
It might be useful if you could find a link so that people can read the background and then discuss it.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Action. Reaction.
The idea that there will be a second Reformation over the RC hierarchy (allegedly) not tackling the problem of homosexuality in seminaries is ... amusing.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I've found it on
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=19707
And there are links there to the BBC and a couple of newspaper articles.
Basically, this chap self-published in the net a book that said that Cardinal O'Brien was but the tip of a lavender iceberg. And now he's being punished and his congregation don't like it.
I suspect the RCC will do all it can to hush things up and Fr Despard will be faced with either staying and keeping quiet or going and then being hounded with accusations of falsehood and/or mental instability.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
And the idea that this thread has life in it without entering Dead Horse territory or becoming libellious is... challenging. Contributors are invited to rise to the challenge.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Let's not discuss Fr Despard's allegations against any individual(s)(yawn) or the issue of homosexuality (more yawns). Its the reaction of the laity to apparent heavy-handedness by the hierarchy which is interesting
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Agreed.
Even the press reported it that way with the lady who made the statement pointing out that the congregation was The Church, not the the hierarchy.
I'm sure Pope Francis will be watching this with interest.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
For those as puzzled by the word "stooshie" as I was, it appears it could also be caused a "tizzy".
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
What, precisely, is this guy claiming is going on in seminaries?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
No, stooshie is a bigger thing than tizzy. More like a stramash.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
What, precisely, is this guy claiming is going on in seminaries?
I think his claims are largely, or even totally, historical. But I haven't read his musings.
This thread, though, is about the hierarchy's attempt to punish him for speaking out, and (more importantly) the laity's response (albeit localised, so far) to the hierarchy.
Have not all recent pronouncements by the Church and the present/previous pope, emphasised the need to be open about abuse in the Church? If no priest can speak out without fear of penal process against him by the Church hierarchy, who will speak out on the clerical side?
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Ah, found the accusations in one of the linked articles.
quote:
No longer, if St John Ogilvie's sets a trend. Months ago the parish priest Father Matthew Despard published a book on Amazon. He told how he had received unwanted homosexual approaches during his training for the priesthood. Those, like him, who rejected these advances were bullied, he alleged.
What vile allegations. Don't let his fight against the RC hierarchy blind you to the fact that he's spouting homophobic rubbish.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Zach82
The chap is Fr Matthew Despard and he's the parish priest in High Blantyre, Scotland.
Earlier this year he published a book, Priesthood in Crisis : One Priest's Experience, initally for Kindle only.
The book gives an in-depth view of the Roman Catholic church in Scotland (which, you may know, lost its senior Cardinal earlier this year because of something very murky to do with sexuality and bullying) and among the claims is that there is, or has been, a "lavender" mafia within the Scots RCC that has been unchallenged for decades, and that it spreads from the seminaries right to the top of the hierarchy. He himself received homosexual advances in seminary and when he rejected them he was bullied - at least that is the claim.
The Archbishop of Motherwell resigned earlier this year but he said no action would be taken against Despard. Now an acting bishop has just turned up and suspended Fr Despard overnight and his congregation basically told the bishop where he should get off.
Another PR disaster for the Scots church which can ill-afford any more scandal.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Zach
So good to know that even from Boston you can instantly see the right-and-wrong of the Despard affair...
The last Cardinal primus of Scotland was relieved of his duties over inappropriate sexual conduct and bullying.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
All the way from Boston I can tell that, far from forming a lavender mafia, homosexuals in Scottish Roman Catholic seminaries live in terror that they will be found out. If they even admit to themselves they are gay in the first place.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Zach82
The chap is Fr Matthew Despard and he's the parish priest in High Blantyre, Scotland.
Earlier this year he published a book, Priesthood in Crisis : One Priest's Experience, initally for Kindle only.
The book gives an in-depth view of the Roman Catholic church in Scotland (which, you may know, lost its senior Cardinal earlier this year because of something very murky to do with sexuality and bullying) and among the claims is that there is, or has been, a "lavender" mafia within the Scots RCC that has been unchallenged for decades, and that it spreads from the seminaries right to the top of the hierarchy. He himself received homosexual advances in seminary and when he rejected them he was bullied - at least that is the claim.
The Archbishop of Motherwell resigned earlier this year but he said no action would be taken against Despard. Now an acting bishop has just turned up and suspended Fr Despard overnight and his congregation basically told the bishop where he should get off.
Another PR disaster for the Scots church which can ill-afford any more scandal.
Traditionalists, for a long time now, have been claiming that this has been going on liberal seminaries. It's something I heard quite often back when I was a trad RC.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I think the Gay bullying/Gay mafia in seminaries story can be criticized from 3 angles:
1. There are liberals in the Church who want to loosen Church doctrine on homosexuality and include priests and seminarians who ostracize those priests-in-training who don't accept their sexual advances. (These seminary stories are usually from a few decades ago, in the decades following Vatican II but before the rightward shift of JPII and BXVI had fully been implemented.)
2. There are closeted gay conservatives in the Church who want to have their sexual fun with no one telling on them but want the Church's doctrine on homosexuality, and gay marriage in particular, to remain unchanged. They take advantage of young seminarians and bully them when they don't reciprocate or go public. This is the main Liberal critique of Cardinal O'Brien and refers to more recent (but still past, as in the 80's and 90's) events in particular places (like Scotland).
3. This isn't confined to seminaries and has more to do with the so-called "Gay Mafia" scandal in the Vatican. This criticism doesn't have a particular conservative or liberal bent but rather is aimed at the corruption of a circle of priests and prelates who are gay and sexually active, promote their own members, enrich themselves through shady financial dealings, hide their tracks through cover-ups, and oppose any reform to the Byzantine, glacially-paced, and often incompetent Vatican bureaucracy. I am not sure if this applies to Scottish seminaries but I have often heard criticisms of closeted gay priests living it up with Church money and promoting members of their own (gay) boy's club applied to a wide number of Catholic dioceses.
However, all 3 of these criticisms, although they have certain bases in fact (Cardinal O'Brien, certain recent gay scandals in the Vatican), are largely based on rumors among people wanting to advance their own ideolgical agenda.
It is true though, that men (and women) with power and the ability to cover it up will frequently try to sexually coerce others, male or female, and bully them if they refuse. Thus the need for more transparency and accountability at all levels of the Church (and every human institution).
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Traditionalists, for a long time now, have been claiming that this has been going on liberal seminaries. It's something I heard quite often back when I was a trad RC.
You mean... traditionalists didn't like liberal seminaries and spread nasty smears about them? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I'm shocked, shocked.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Are there really Catholic "Liberal Seminaries" in Scotland? In what way are they liberal? I confess my knowledge of such matters is close to zero, hence the question.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
All the way from Boston I can tell that, far from forming a lavender mafia, homosexuals in Scottish Roman Catholic seminaries live in terror that they will be found out. If they even admit to themselves they are gay in the first place.
Zach, I think you're coming late to this story. The current stooshie (or "uproar" in English) is the latest development in a sorry tale that has rumbled on since February. Some context is here.
This thread started off in Purgatory, because the current twist isn't about homosexuality, but about the Catholic church's response to disquiet in the pews. However, it is almost impossible to discuss this without reference to the allegations of the future cardinal, Keith O'Brien, pressurising seminarians into homosexual activity.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Traditionalists, for a long time now, have been claiming that this has been going on liberal seminaries. It's something I heard quite often back when I was a trad RC.
You mean... traditionalists didn't like liberal seminaries and spread nasty smears about them? I'm shocked, shocked.
For my part, I don't doubt such rumours or at least most of them.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Are there really Catholic "Liberal Seminaries" in Scotland? In what way are they liberal? I confess my knowledge of such matters is close to zero, hence the question.
For a traditionalist, virtually any V2/NO seminary.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Traditionalists, for a long time now, have been claiming that this has been going on liberal seminaries. It's something I heard quite often back when I was a trad RC.
You mean... traditionalists didn't like liberal seminaries and spread nasty smears about them? I'm shocked, shocked.
For my part, I don't doubt such rumours or at least most of them.
Right. Conservatives are angels.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Traditionalists, for a long time now, have been claiming that this has been going on liberal seminaries. It's something I heard quite often back when I was a trad RC.
You mean... traditionalists didn't like liberal seminaries and spread nasty smears about them? I'm shocked, shocked.
For my part, I don't doubt such rumours or at least most of them.
Right. Conservatives are angels.
Now you're readsing too much into my post. All I said was that I believe there to be some truth in them. The RC Trad movement has its owm problems, of course, but they are of a completely different nature and a subject for a different thread.
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I suspect the RCC will do all it can to hush things up and Fr Despard will be faced with either staying and keeping quiet or going and then being hounded with accusations of falsehood and/or mental instability.
Yes, that was certainly the modus operandi when that furore blew up at the Birmingham Oratory a few years back about what their own press release admitted to be an "imprudent" "intense but physically chaste friendship" between the then-Provost and an unnamed young man who was reported to have been rejected as a candidate for the priesthood. The two priests and a lay brother who mentioned it – and in this case, they mentioned their concerns to the Vatican, rather than publishing a book about it – ended up being sent on silent retreat and then two of them reassigned to churches in South Africa and Canada (the news trail went silent on the third, allegedly because he wouldn't go along with being transported to the colonies for not having done anything wrong).
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
All the way from Boston I can tell that, far from forming a lavender mafia, homosexuals in Scottish Roman Catholic seminaries live in terror that they will be found out. If they even admit to themselves they are gay in the first place.
Zach, I think you're coming late to this story. The current stooshie (or "uproar" in English) is the latest development in a sorry tale that has rumbled on since February. Some context is here.
This thread started off in Purgatory, because the current twist isn't about homosexuality, but about the Catholic church's response to disquiet in the pews. However, it is almost impossible to discuss this without reference to the allegations of the future cardinal, Keith O'Brien, pressurising seminarians into homosexual activity.
I know nothing of the allegations against Keith O'Brien, or the the feelings in the pews about the case. That is all very regrettable I am sure. I am merely looking objectively at the cause of this particular case of disquiet, and have found it to be in all likelihood a bunch of homophobic nonsense.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
The cause of the current disquiet is that a whistle-blowing priest is being silenced by his bishop and his congregation are in a stooshie ("outraged") by this.
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
in all likelihood a bunch of homophobic nonsense.
That ship has sailed. Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned last May.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The cause of the current disquiet is that a whistle-blowing priest is being silenced by his bishop and his congregation are in a stooshie ("outraged") by this.
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
in all likelihood a bunch of homophobic nonsense.
That ship has sailed. Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned last May.
This particular priest, around which the stooshie done stooshed, has claimed that Roman Catholic seminaries are run by "Lavender mafias" that bully straight students into their ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) gay lifestyle. Which, purely objectively, no matter if the allegations against Keith O'Brien are true, is more likely utter malarky than not.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
The two priests and a lay brother who mentioned it – and in this case, they mentioned their concerns to the Vatican, rather than publishing a book about it
In this case, the priests went public because they had raised their concerns with the Vatican, indeed had provided sworn statements, but felt that the Vatican was ignoring them. See here.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The cause of the current disquiet is that a whistle-blowing priest is being silenced by his bishop and his congregation are in a stooshie ("outraged") by this.
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
in all likelihood a bunch of homophobic nonsense.
That ship has sailed. Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned last May.
I'm not completely convinced the ship is out of the harbour. This could certainly be one too many straws, but the reaction during the molestation scandals were shift and weave; this is more iron fist.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I cannot understand why, in this particular circumstance, the reaction of the Church hierarchy is at issue. How should the Church react to this priest's behavior?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I cannot understand why, in this particular circumstance, the reaction of the Church hierarchy is at issue. How should the Church react to this priest's behavior?
Listen? Stop protecting abusive bastards? Fix it's fucking problems?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I cannot understand why, in this particular circumstance, the reaction of the Church hierarchy is at issue. How should the Church react to this priest's behavior?
Listen? Stop protecting abusive bastards? Fix it's fucking problems?
Listen to people protecting a man making homophobic slurs? It seems to me that disciplining this guy IS fixing a problem.
[ 20. November 2013, 17:34: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Zach,
The whole point this priest is alleging in his book is that seminarians were sexually propositioned by their superiors and then bullied when they refused. The "mafia" language refers to an alleged cabal of male clerics having sex with other male clerics (often taking advantage of the younger ones) and using their influence to cover up their tracks and silence anyone who protested. With different words to describe it, anyone would agree it's wrong, whether or not it is true. (Note: Cardinal O'Brien's accusers said he did basically exatly what this priest said was endemic, and Cardinal O'Brien did admit to sexual relationships with priests (brought on by the drinking, a la Rob Ford), prior to his seclusion to wherever he is nowadays.)
The phrasing used ("lavender Mafia," etc) for the scandal is not unoffensive, but is typical for older Europeans unaccustomed to the PC filters young Americans like me navigate easily.
There are homophobic and heterosexist overtones in just about any discussion of the sexual improprieties of Catholic clergy - of course pedophilia, sexual assault, bullying and the covering up thereof are all very very evil and must be stopped yesterday but we (including my gay self) often let our anti-LGBT prejudices show in the way we talk about collared-man-on-collared-man shenanigans, consensual or not.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
OK. The argument therefore seems to be, since a leader of the Church has been accused of sexual misconduct, it must be obviously the case that seminaries are run by a shadowy gay conspiracy that persecutes the poor straight students.
Really?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I cannot understand why, in this particular circumstance, the reaction of the Church hierarchy is at issue. How should the Church react to this priest's behavior?
Listen? Stop protecting abusive bastards? Fix it's fucking problems?
Listen to people protecting a man making homophobic slurs? It seems to me that disciplining this guy IS fixing a problem.
I defend homophobes at the same rate I defend racists.
The RCC has no credibility in these matters. They do not properly investigate or fix problems. They quash dissent. While I've no doubts about abuse of power in the RCC, i do have doubts about the extents described in that particular book.
The solution is to attempt to discover the truth, not stifle discussion.
Am I suspicious that reactions of parishioners here seem a bit more severe than during the kiddie-fiddler scandal? Yes.
Does this paint the church as a hero to the gay community? Hardly.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
You think there needs to be a discussion about whether straight students in seminaries are persecuted by a gay conspiracy?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
OK. The argument therefore seems to be, since a leader of the Church has been accused of sexual misconduct, it must be obviously the case that seminaries are run by a shadowy gay conspiracy that persecutes the poor straight students.
Really?
No. The argument is the church is guilty of covering up sexual misconduct and protecting the offenders then quashing evidence to the contrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You think there needs to be a discussion about whether straight students in seminaries are persecuted by a gay conspiracy?
I think the RCC cannot afford to fail to investigate and invite others along for the investigation.
[ 20. November 2013, 18:25: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Just as a matter of interest, who here has actually read this piece of work? Or are we all relying on third-hand comments and our own pre-suppositions. Hands up...
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
I (the OPer) admitted upthread that I haven't read the piece of work in question.
But, as is clear elsewhere, I have in vain sought a debate on the reaction of the laity to the reaction of the hierarchy.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I haven't read it. I'm just going on what I've read in the quality Scottish newspapers, and heard on BBC Radio Scotland.
However, I understand that he is one of four priests making broadly similar accusations; all four provided the Vatican with sworn statements and it was when there was no response to those that the story was broken to the press. I'm not clear at what point Fr Despard decided that writing a book was the way forward.
I, too, am more interested in the current position of the hierarchy and the irate congregation.
[ 20. November 2013, 18:34: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
OK. The argument therefore seems to be, since a leader of the Church has been accused of sexual misconduct, it must be obviously the case that seminaries are run by a shadowy gay conspiracy that persecutes the poor straight students.
Really?
No. The argument is the church is guilty of covering up sexual misconduct and protecting the offenders then quashing evidence to the contrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You think there needs to be a discussion about whether straight students in seminaries are persecuted by a gay conspiracy?
I think the RCC cannot afford to fail to investigate and invite others along for the investigation.
I've been perfectly clear that I am talking about this particular case only. If you think it is possible that the Catholic Church is covering something up in this case, you are indeed asserting that it is possible that there is a lavender conspiracy. That's the allegation here.
I just think that, if we're going to get heated about Catholic white-washing, we should do it in a case that is less obviously absurd. Don't let your vendetta against the Roman Catholic Church blind you to the realities of this situation.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
It's not "obviously absurd" to Fr Despard's congregation. Two services have been affected by members of the congregation walking out in protest.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
It's not "obviously absurd" to Fr Despard's congregation. Two services have been affected by members of the congregation walking out in protest.
Indeed, I find it very dispiriting that so many people would be ready to believe in a gay conspiracy, and I find it regrettable that they would let their feelings about the hierarchy blind them to how dubious these stories are.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
It's also not "obviously absurd" to Cardinal Keith O'Brien, who resigned last May.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
It's also not "obviously absurd" to Cardinal Keith O'Brien, who resigned last May.
Didn't he resign because allegations of sexual misconduct were made against him? That is a far cry from resigning because of complicity in a lavender conspiracy.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
OK. The argument therefore seems to be, since a leader of the Church has been accused of sexual misconduct, it must be obviously the case that seminaries are run by a shadowy gay conspiracy that persecutes the poor straight students.
Really?
No. The argument is the church is guilty of covering up sexual misconduct and protecting the offenders then quashing evidence to the contrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You think there needs to be a discussion about whether straight students in seminaries are persecuted by a gay conspiracy?
I think the RCC cannot afford to fail to investigate and invite others along for the investigation.
I've been perfectly clear that I am talking about this particular case only. If you think it is possible that the Catholic Church is covering something up in this case, you are indeed asserting that it is possible that there is a lavender conspiracy. That's the allegation here.
I just think that, if we're going to get heated about Catholic white-washing, we should do it in a case that is less obviously absurd. Don't let your vendetta against the Roman Catholic Church blind you to the realities of this situation.
Absurd how? Because you don't like what he's saying? That's exactly the reason why there has been such a problem in the past and exactly why the alkegations should be properly investigated.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
The point is, that the Catholic church appears to be trying to silence whistle-blowers such as Fr Despard. If his claims are "obviously absurd" then demonstrate that they are "obviously absurd."
Archbishop Mario Conti's allegation that Cardinal Keith O'Brien actively blocked investigation into historic sexual abuse by clergy only adds to the disquiet felt be congregations.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I'm completely at sea. What conspiracy?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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