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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ecumenism and Eucharistic Hospitality
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tartanbiretta
Apprentice
# 17172
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Posted
In the heady days of the 1980s before the chill wind of the new ultramontanism set in, there was, I think, a general permission from the French RC Episcopal Conference for Anglicans unable to attend Mass at a Diocese of Europe chaplaincy to receive at an RC Mass. References to this on the internet are few and far between, and are referenced in commentary only:
http://donotfreeze.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/this-made-me-laugh.html
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=70;t=024774
http://anglican.cz/response-apostolic-constitution/
It appears that a definite statement to this effect used to appear on the Diocese of Europe website, but has been lost in modernisation efforts.
Has this permission been officially withdrawn?
Have those concerned decided that it is safer to keep this arrangement quiet and informal rather than risk it being noticed by those higher up the curial foodchain and anathematised?
Assuming the provision is still in place, would this apply if an Anglican group (with priest) was formally invited to an RC Sunday Mass? Or should the priest ask to celebrate his/her own Mass before/after for the benefit of Anglicans wishing to receive?
I realise that in reality most French RC clergy really wouldn't see what the issue was, indeed I was party to an occasion recently where a (female) Anglican priest was invited to participate at the Altar to the full extent to which she felt able, and Anglicans invited to receive the Sacrament.
From both Anglican and RC perspectives, is this latter kind of situation a positive and practical effort toward unity, or untimately detrimental to unity by ignoring differences in doctrine and ecclesiology that need instead to be respected and discussed?
Posts: 8 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Kinda tangential, but I feel that 'sneaking' into the communion line is rather contrary to the spirit of the Holy Eucharist, so I sit out even if I know full well the priest would look the other way. There are plenty of Episcopal parishes around where I can make my own communion as much as I like.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Closed communion is a Dead Horse and therefore discussion of any aspect of it belongs on that board. Hang on to your ciboriums...
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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tartanbiretta
Apprentice
# 17172
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Posted
Zach82 - I've been present at a couple of situations on the continent (not France) where Anglicans (who were expected by the church and known to be Anglicans) have not received out of respect for the rules and so not to offend, and it has had the complete opposite effect with the Priest taking offence at their not receiving! Would your course of action be different in a situation like this where it is a little stronger than turning a blind eye/not challenging anyone at the rail?
[ 08. June 2014, 17:39: Message edited by: tartanbiretta ]
Posts: 8 | Registered: Jun 2012
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Kinda tangential, but I feel that 'sneaking' into the communion line is rather contrary to the spirit of the Holy Eucharist, so I sit out even if I know full well the priest would look the other way. There are plenty of Episcopal parishes around where I can make my own communion as much as I like.
Um... the vast majority of Roman Catholics who receive communion are in a state of mortal sin according to the Church (including myself) so I gave up a long time ago on worrying about whether I was "stealing" communion. I know it's technically not the same as not belonging to the same communion...but when you think about it...is it really that different?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I don't present myself at Catholic altars for communion but equally I don't think it my job to enforce Catholic discipline so the flipside is that on occasion people I know to be Catholics present themselves for Holy Communion at Methodist services I'm taking and I certainly don't turn them away. If a Catholic priest were to explicitly invite me to receive, I would.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Canon Law is your friend. Canon 844.4 reads: quote:
4. If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed.
So the conditions are:
a. there is danger of death, or, other grave necessity,
b. the diocesan bishop or the local conference of bishops have set norms in place
c. the person cannot approach a minister of his or her own community
d. asks on his or her own for it,
e. they manifest Catholic faith in the sacraments
f. is properly disposed.
In France the bishops may well have had very generous norms in place. I have heard this said often by Anglicans, but I have never seen what the French norms are.
It's not a case of can't get to an Anglican Chaplaincy but rather don't have access to an Anglican cleric. If an Anglican group is travelling with their own minister, then no, they should not be admitted to communion because they have their own sacramental provision available.
Anglicans have a wide variety of Eucharistic doctrines, so simply giving blanket permission to all Anglicans would contravene e - that the person manifests Catholic faith in the sacraments.
Individual priests often do make up their own rules. They are in breach of Canon Law. It may give some Anglicans - who are accustomed to having to make their own interpretations on almost every matter - encouragement to think that's the way things really are and "those higher up curial food chain" are spoilsports, but in reality such priests are simply deceiving said Anglicans.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Anglicans have a wide variety of Eucharistic doctrines, so simply giving blanket permission to all Anglicans would contravene e - that the person manifests Catholic faith in the sacraments.
IME, quite a large number of individual Roman Catholics also have a wide variety of Eucharistic doctrines and some even have very little understanding of the nature of the sacrament.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Kinda tangential, but I feel that 'sneaking' into the communion line is rather contrary to the spirit of the Holy Eucharist, so I sit out even if I know full well the priest would look the other way. There are plenty of Episcopal parishes around where I can make my own communion as much as I like.
Very few Episcopal or other Anglican parishes out in the Vaucluse, or the Tirol, for example. But we don't sneak in. We go and have a chat to the priest at least the day before if possible, but certainly beforehand. We explain as best we can what we understand as the Eucharist, and he understands as best he can our French or Austrian or Italian explanation. Never have we been refused.
And there have been times here when we have been at another school where there has been Mass - again, a chat to the Jesuit priest beforehand has drawn a comment along the lines that we are always welcome at the table at which he serves, and that as far as he is aware, there is no Anglican service within a reasonable distance which we could attend.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Quite a few mixed Roman Catholic/Anglo-Catholic marriages out my way, though they are less remarkable these days as Catholics drift from the Church. It's at the funerals of the Catholic partner where an invitation has been extended—implicitly or explicitly—to the clot of ACs clumped in the middle of the church.
[Did I just post in Dead Horses? Damnit.]
[ 09. June 2014, 02:15: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
One of the peculiarities of the Camino to Santiago is that, aside services at from two pilgrims' hostels, one Dutch Reformed, and the other German Lutheran, there are no non-RC churches along the 750km way. Most local parish churches in the villages offer evening masses and a dozen or two dozen pilgrims normally attend out of the hundreds passing through. By my guess, over half of those attending are RC and they are joined in the communion line by non-RCs. At the finish of the pilgrimage in Santiago, the communion lines are quite full of non-RC pilgrims.
The priests cannot be oblivious to this fact and in the past few years have been in dialogue with their bishops on how to handle this. There seems to be a growing feeling that canon 844 largely applies and that they view this as an evangelical opportunity to reach an unchurched but seeking population.
One of my interlocutors notes that the Spanish RCC does not feel any competition from other churches (largely true) but is sensitive to strong anti- and non-religious sentiments in Spain and western Europe.
On lesser routes, there are Anglican churches in Bilbao and Salamanca, and Lutheran in Bilbao and Santander, but I've never heard of anyone frequenting them-- they tend to be expatriate chaplaincies and while doubtless welcoming, I think that they could only be found by the most diligent church geek (an Ethiopian Orthodox accountant from Surrey BC found a Romanian Orthodox church in Pamplona and found herself feted for the entire day). Several non-RC pilgrims spoke to me of their frustration and puzzlement that there were only RC churches along the way but I could only direct them to the history books and the blunt fact that, since the end of the Franco era, religious freedom for non-RCs has been available to Spaniards and they weren't interested in Reformation debates.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
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Posted
If I may be pedantic here - Augustine the Aleut, the Anglican churches you refer to in Bilbao and Salamanca are not expatriate chaplaincies, rather they are Spanish-speaking congregations of the Reformed Episcopal Church (part of the Anglican Communion).
Spanish Reformed Episcopal church: locations in Spain
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“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I was aware that they were part of the SEC but, from my viewing of websites about a year ago (and so possibly out of date) and, in the case of Salamanca, speaking with a local resident, they seem to cater to expatriates. The Salamanca congregation is interesting in that it has a number of anglophone Africans who, in the vicissitudes of their lives in Sierra Leone and Liberia, ended up in Spain. Indeed, it may be that the African presence will be a growing element in continental Anglicanism in the next few years.
The SREC, like the Lusitanian church, deserve their own thread someday. I remember in my student days in Ireland learning how they got much of their initial support from the CoI in the 1800s.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
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Posted
I would also be interested to know more about the SREC too. Finances and job security permitting in the next couple of years, I plan to visit the cities of Salamanca and Zamora, and I would be interested in attending a service at a SREC church in those cities.
Going back to the subject of this thread, when I was in Zaragoza a couple of years ago (before the SREC congregation was established there), I asked if I (as an Anglican of the Anglo-Catholic variety) could receive the Eucharist at a Mass at the Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar - it seemed so right and fitting to do so - and I was given permission. In fact, the clergy were most happy for me to receive the Sacrament.
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“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Apropos my previous post on the Spanish clergy and 844, I have email confirming that at least one diocesan bishop along the Camino has instructed his priests that they are to judge as best they can the pilgrim's understanding of the sacrament, noting that they are walking hundreds of kilometres to the Apostle's tomb, an act of faith and respect which the clergy and people of his diocese would do well to emulate (rough translation).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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