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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How far to accommodate religious belief?
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I was thinking of the latter case (Belfast IIRC). I don't think the former instance is defensible since it is clear discrimination against a particular class of people; the latter is more complex IMO.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
This story is an example.
quote:
Gavin Boyd of the gay rights organisation the Rainbow Project, said the firm "cannot have their cake and eat it" in relation to equality legislation in Northern Ireland. "The law on this matter is clear. Companies may not pick and choose the laws that apply to them and they cannot pick the sexual orientation of their customers," Boyd said.
Whatever service we provide, we can't pick the sexual orientation of our customers or the message they want put on their cakes. If the slogan is within the law, then we write it.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Agreed re the first, but the second is more nuanced IMO, particularly if, for example, the shop says in its advertising etc, "We reserve the right to not ice cakes with messages which we consider to be offensive"; the nature of their service and its limitations are then plain for all to see in advance.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Whatever service we provide, we can't pick the sexual orientation of our customers or the message they want put on their cakes. If the slogan is within the law, then we write it.
This stands in opposition to the stance taken by que sais-je and colleagues at the charity shop, where they refuse to sell entirely legal literature that they disapprove of.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
First of all, I believe both Say Say and I were talking about the bakery that refused to sell a stock wedding cake to someone who had a civil marriage. There's a shop in Oregon that is being sued for violation of the discrimination laws. In the United States a lot of the law comes from the anti discrimination law; it was decided that you couldn't have a public business with a "Whites Only" policy and the anti-discrimination law carries a lot of power.
To hair split on the other case (Belfast) where a bakery refused to put a slogan on a cake for a political organization. A Bakery can probably avoid this by only offering stock slogans. In fact there are bakeries that only offer to put on a premade transfer sheet rather than ice an inscription. When they offer the service of a custom slogan but refuse to provide one for a legal slogan that they nudge the edges of the law. Since the law has substantial differences in both places, I am not going to attempt a legal analysis of the conflict between the Belfast religious freedom laws and freedom of speech laws. I'd probably be astonished at the actual laws.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
In the United States a lot of the law comes from the anti discrimination law; it was decided that you couldn't have a public business with a "Whites Only" policy and the anti-discrimination law carries a lot of power.
To hair split on the other case (Belfast) where a bakery refused to put a slogan on a cake for a political organization. A Bakery can probably avoid this by only offering stock slogans.
Not necessarily. Very few anti-discrimination laws forbid discrimination on the basis of political opinion.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Whatever service we provide, we can't pick the sexual orientation of our customers or the message they want put on their cakes. If the slogan is within the law, then we write it.
This stands in opposition to the stance taken by que sais-je and colleagues at the charity shop, where they refuse to sell entirely legal literature that they disapprove of.
I'm not sure I see the relationship between putting messages on brand-new cakes, and selecting used books to resell. Can you make this clearer?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
You are welcome to preach your beliefs. But this does not free you from peoples' reactions to them. The same liberal plurality that lets you say them lets me call what you are preaching homophobic, hateful, and harmful. If you want to use liberal plurality allowing you to speak your beliefs then the very same token allows my reply.
You can say what you like.
What you can't do rationally is try to pretend that a policy that says that private individuals and organisations should be free to support or not support homosexual practice, is analogous to a policy which says that some human beings should be free to enslave other human beings.
quote:
(And on a sidenote, given the number of Libertarians who are even to this day pro-Confederacy bringing up the word Libertarian and slavery in the same sentence doesn't necessarily have the connotations you want).
The fact that some libertarians fly Confederate flags does not negate libertarianism any more than comunist extremists negate socialism.
As it happens, like most people I am not a "pure" libertarian, but a mixture of liberalism, conservatism and state interventionism (eg universal health schemes).
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
You are welcome to preach your beliefs. But this does not free you from peoples' reactions to them. The same liberal plurality that lets you say them lets me call what you are preaching homophobic, hateful, and harmful. If you want to use liberal plurality allowing you to speak your beliefs then the very same token allows my reply.
You can say what you like.
What you can't do rationally is try to pretend that a policy that says that private individuals and organisations should be free to support or not support homosexual practice, is analogous to a policy which says that some human beings should be free to enslave other human beings.
I can however point out that the arguments you made that I was replying to was honed in the battle to preserve slavery. Which means that as arguments in themselves they are dubious to the point that the premise is almost certainly invalid.
And glad to see you aren't a pure Libertarian.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Technically there's a difference between whether or not the Bible supports slaves being obedient to their masters (with lots of other important stuff, totally violated in the American South, relating to the treatment of people hierarchically over and under oneself), and whether not racially-based slavery (and/or taking people captive from their homes in the first place, and so on) is somehow mandated or approved of.
As well as the question of whether or not those arguments really are the same as the others in question--whether the Old and New Testaments are being properly understood on such matters--the place of Christian Tradition--the conclusions Reason can draw from all of these--and so on.
Arguably the question, "Is the kind of slavery in the American South in the 1800s something the Bible and the traditional Christian faith could genuinely support?" could deserve its own Purgatory thread, though I don't feel a real need to go start it.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Technically there's a difference between whether or not the Bible supports slaves being obedient to their masters (with lots of other important stuff, totally violated in the American South, relating to the treatment of people hierarchically over and under oneself), and whether not racially-based slavery (and/or taking people captive from their homes in the first place, and so on) is somehow mandated or approved of.
As well as the question of whether or not those arguments really are the same as the others in question--whether the Old and New Testaments are being properly understood on such matters--the place of Christian Tradition--the conclusions Reason can draw from all of these--and so on.
Arguably the question, "Is the kind of slavery in the American South in the 1800s something the Bible and the traditional Christian faith could genuinely support?" could deserve its own Purgatory thread, though I don't feel a real need to go start it.
The Conquistadors and the Southern Baptists, both cited their faith to justify slavery. Your vast array of technicalities didn't seem to matter. What period of time are you claiming is the period of Traditional Christianity? This sure does sound like the old "they're not real Christians" Dance. They thought they were traditional Christians and cited the Bible as an authority.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Your vast array of technicalities didn't seem to matter.
Some of these things may be technical but they are not technicalities in that sense.
quote:
This sure does sound like the old "they're not real Christians" Dance.
So what? That's not relevant to whether or not some form of slavery (but not the abuses nor the false notions of one "race" being superior or inferior to another) was/is permitted by God.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
a policy that says that private individuals and organisations should be free to support or not support homosexual practice,
I know this was not the direction this quote was headed, but let us stop and examine this part.
A baker is not providing support for any belief other than, perhaps, the belief that people might enjoy celebrating events with baked goods. Most often, the motivation is "I believe I can bake well, perhaps I can make a living doing so".
When a baker writes Congratulations, Bob, on a Job Well Done, s/he has no idea what Bob has done well. Could before making strides to establish a new Nazi party.* Could be in establishing a new chapter of the Jimmy Saville fan club.
Point is, bake shops do not exist to support ideals, they exist to provide baked goods.
*Yeah, I know, the BNP already exists.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure I see the relationship between putting messages on brand-new cakes, and selecting used books to resell. Can you make this clearer?
Each is a form of censorship by the vendor. In one case, the vendor prefers not to write messages that he disapproves of on a cake; in the second case, he prefers not to sell used books that he disapproves of. (In the charity shop case, it's not just choosing to not stock the books - it's pulping them rather than making them available for purchase.)
To me, refusing to produce cakes with a gay theme is almost the same act as being a seller of second hand books who pulps gay fiction. I'm not sure anyone has ever asked for a cake celebrating true crime books or Jeffrey Archer, but ...
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Whatever service we provide, we can't pick the sexual orientation of our customers or the message they want put on their cakes. If the slogan is within the law, then we write it.
Specialty stores exist in all 50 states to provide (NSFW link): erotic cakes to those who want them.
Doesn't mean I think every bakery should be forced to bake cakes in the shape of a penis. In fact, I'm pretty sure forcing one of my employees to do that against their will would constitute sexual harassment.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We always select from Bible admonitions. Some we simply ignore. Have a look at the fabric content label in the garments you are wearing right this instant. Any polyester-cotton in there? Uh uh, God doesn't like that...
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Specialty stores exist in all 50 states to provide (NSFW link): erotic cakes to those who want them.
Doesn't mean I think every bakery should be forced to bake cakes in the shape of a penis. In fact, I'm pretty sure forcing one of my employees to do that against their will would constitute sexual harassment.
I'm pretty sure that 'forcing' an employee of an erotic cake shop to bake a penis-shaped cake constitutes a condition of employment.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Your vast array of technicalities didn't seem to matter.
Some of these things may be technical but they are not technicalities in that sense.
And they still don't matter. The largest groups of people calling themselves Christian at the time used their interpretation of the Bible to justify their use of slavery. If you went to retroactively say "They're not real Christians" then you're attempting to redefine Christianity to avoid responsibility..
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Doesn't mean I think every bakery should be forced to bake cakes in the shape of a penis. In fact, I'm pretty sure forcing one of my employees to do that against their will would constitute sexual harassment.
Has anyone tried to force you to make such a cake? Your customers should acknowledge your expertise and ask for cakes that look like a straw man.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Palimpsest: Has anyone tried to force you to make such a cake? Your customers should acknowledge your expertise and ask for cakes that look like a straw man.
I find the argument pretty solid actually. If a (normal; not specifically erotic) bakery can refuse to bake a penis-shaped cake, regardless of whether it is ever asked to do so, it can also refuse to print certain texts on a cake.
My own take on it, which I'll probably fail magnificently to solidify juridically, is that bakers cannot discriminate people, but they can refuse to print certain texts. So they can't refuse to print "Happy marriage John and Jim" but they can refuse "Take one up the arse", provided they refuse this for heterosexual couples too.
My biggest problems is with artists. Surely, a gospel singer can refuse to sing at an Eid Al-Fitr. But can he refuse to sing at a gay wedding? I really don't know well where to draw the line here (and between this singer and the baker).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Specialty stores exist in all 50 states to provide (NSFW link): erotic cakes to those who want them.
Doesn't mean I think every bakery should be forced to bake cakes in the shape of a penis. In fact, I'm pretty sure forcing one of my employees to do that against their will would constitute sexual harassment.
I'm pretty sure that 'forcing' an employee of an erotic cake shop to bake a penis-shaped cake constitutes a condition of employment.
Wow. There really is no end to the misrepresentation, is there?
When did you start working for the Libertarian Party?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Doesn't mean I think every bakery should be forced to bake cakes in the shape of a penis. In fact, I'm pretty sure forcing one of my employees to do that against their will would constitute sexual harassment.
I'm pretty sure that 'forcing' an employee of an erotic cake shop to bake a penis-shaped cake constitutes a condition of employment.
Wow. There really is no end to the misrepresentation, is there?
It's a legitimate question. If religious conscience is a legitimate excuse for not doing your job, how far does it extend? (e.g. my earlier hypothetical of a doctor who becomes a Christian Scientist. Or an equally hypothetical Muslim bartender who wants to only serve non-alcoholic drinks.)
[ 15. October 2014, 01:43: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
If you went to retroactively say "They're not real Christians" then you're attempting to redefine Christianity to avoid responsibility..
I'm not trying to avoid any responsibility whatsoever, thank you. Please leave my motives out of this.
God knows about who "real Christians" are and who are not. The question of who is "real" in His eyes and who is not is not the same sense of "real Christian" in the sense that covers people who ostensibly share the same array of theologies and behaviors, who can all at least technically be considered "real Christians" in another sense, which can in theory include everyone from Spong to the Inquisitors and beyond.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
(Or an equally hypothetical Muslim bartender who wants to only serve non-alcoholic drinks.)
A Muslim bartender seeking to serve only non-alcoholic drinks would be unwise to seek employment in a pub - a place whose entire raison d'etre is the serving of alcoholic drinks, but might be comfortable in a coffee shop or juice bar.
Similarly, someone who doesn't want to bake penis cakes shouldn't look for a job at the local erotic bakery, but it might not be unreasonable for someone working at a normal bakery to not want to frost a penis.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Arguably the question, "Is the kind of slavery in the American South in the 1800s something the Bible and the traditional Christian faith could genuinely support?" could deserve its own Purgatory thread, though I don't feel a real need to go start it.
You could start a thread but it would be futile sophistry because of the historical facts. As shown in the rise of the Southern Baptists preached that the Bible supported slavery Of course it wasn't genuine support just an astonishing replica.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I have just encountered another, rather different example which I don't think is totally off-topic in my line of work:
My client is selling his flat to Ms Purchaser who is in turn selling her own property. My client is also buying on and his sellers have become 'twitchy' of late (not unreasonably, as the transaction has become protracted). Ms Purchaser's buyer is getting a mortgage and the mortgage lender has commissioned a survey to be done on Ms Purchaser's property. We heard over three weeks ago that the survey was being held up because there was a wasps' nest ay Ms Purchaser's property and the surveyor couldn't attend until this was removed (health and safety, again not unreasonably).
I discovered yesterday that this wasps' nest is still in situ and, on blowing my gasket at the estate agent and the estate agent in turn venting her spleen at Ms Purchaser, we discover that the reason for the stay of execution is that Ms Purchaser is a practising Buddhist and has vowed never to harm a living creature. (I have to say that in my 20+ years of property law practice, that's a completely new one on me!)
So....should the rest of the chain be held to ransom by Ms P's no doubt sincerely-held belief, with the risk that the chain will collapse, or should Ms P really not be in the business of trying to move house, or...what?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Doesn't mean I think every bakery should be forced to bake cakes in the shape of a penis. In fact, I'm pretty sure forcing one of my employees to do that against their will would constitute sexual harassment.
I'm pretty sure that 'forcing' an employee of an erotic cake shop to bake a penis-shaped cake constitutes a condition of employment.
Wow. There really is no end to the misrepresentation, is there?
It's a legitimate question. If religious conscience is a legitimate excuse for not doing your job, how far does it extend? (e.g. my earlier hypothetical of a doctor who becomes a Christian Scientist. Or an equally hypothetical Muslim bartender who wants to only serve non-alcoholic drinks.)
I think you misread saysay there. They were saying that erotic cake stores exist - but at a nonerotic cake store the employee shouldn't have to bake a cake in the shape of a penis.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Correct. The employee (and the shop owner) should have the right to refuse to make a product s/he/they find offensive
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I think you misread saysay there. They were saying that erotic cake stores exist - but at a nonerotic cake store the employee shouldn't have to bake a cake in the shape of a penis.
Nor should bakery employees (erotic or otherwise) have to paint their customers' apartments, even if paid to do so. Not because it violates their religious conscience or because they find it "offensive", but because that's not their job! Trying to cast refusing to offer specific services as a matter of religious conscience misses the point very badly.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Correct. The employee (and the shop owner) should have the right to refuse to make a product s/he/they find offensive
If that's the case they shouldn't put it on the menu.
If you are employed as a pharmacist and find being a pharmacist and dispensing the morning after pill to be offensive you can resign. You are unwilling to do your job.
If you are employed to bake wedding cakes and find certain weddings to be offensive you can resign. Or you can take wedding cakes off the menu.
If you reserve the right to censor the messages on the cakes you bake that means that you are responsible for every single message you accept and produce. Both legally and morally. You aren't just a cake baker - you are a cake baker and an editor.
And @Creosus, most bakeries don't say "We will bake any shape of cake you like" - this is the point of difference. They do offer any personal messages.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
So...um...what's the difference between not baking cakes in certain shapes and not baking cakes with certain personal messages on them? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So...um...what's the difference between not baking cakes in certain shapes and not baking cakes with certain personal messages on them?
That your business says it will do the one but not the other. If your business were to say that it would do no personalised messages then it would be fine not to do personalised messages. If you were to claim "We bake cakes in whatever shape you want" then the penis cake would be fine.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
That your business says it will do the one but not the other. If your business were to say that it would do no personalised messages then it would be fine not to do personalised messages. If you were to claim "We bake cakes in whatever shape you want" then the penis cake would be fine.
But nobody actually says that. They say "we bake custom cakes" and have a (probably unwritten) rule that they will turn down anything they consider in bad taste (which might be a penis, or a disemboweled torso, or the head of your political opponent on a sliver platter, or ...)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
You have a charmingly optimistic opinion of what cake bakers can do. To make a cake in the shape of a disemboweled torso can be done, but it is not within the skill of an ordinary cake shop. It would be perfectly OK, in other words, for the baker to say, "That's beyond me, sir," and decline the job. The same with a cake in the shape of a penis -- you need a special pan in that shape (shop for it on google, it's there) and if you don't have it you could easily say, "We don't have a pan in that shape."
Where the difficulty comes is when they ALREADY do wedding cakes, in the standard size/shape, but refuse to do them for a certain subset of customers.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
I find it outrageous that this bakery won't bake me a cake in a non-Euclidean shape! This is clearly the tyranny of orientable surfaces.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Where the difficulty comes is when they ALREADY do wedding cakes, in the standard size/shape, but refuse to do them for a certain subset of customers.
There are two separate "difficulties". One is indeed the desire not to make their normal wedding cake for a gay couple.
The other is a desire not to make a cake bearing particular slogans. It is this second "difficulty" - the Irish baker question - that has been expanded into a discussion of pound cake penes, confectionery cocks, and charity shops pulping true crime novels.
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Planeta Plicata
Shipmate
# 17543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's a legitimate question. If religious conscience is a legitimate excuse for not doing your job, how far does it extend? (e.g. my earlier hypothetical of a doctor who becomes a Christian Scientist. Or an equally hypothetical Muslim bartender who wants to only serve non-alcoholic drinks.)
Well, it seems like there are a couple of answers. You could have a balancing test, where you weigh the (ostensible) good of religious freedom against other relevant factors (e.g., how easy it would be to get another employee to bake the cake, whether the employer actually wants to sell the cake or is just having a laugh, etc.). Or you could simply deny religious exemptions in all circumstances. (I suppose there's also option three: employees are allowed to get out of any request by citing religious objections, but I don't think anyone seriously defends this view.)
If you ask me, what the second option achieves in terms of clarity, it loses in terms of ignoring considerations that a lot of people feel are relevant -- which is one reason why in America the federal government and a number of states have chosen the first option. Does that result in line-drawing problems? Sure. But so does determining negligence, and yet we don't abolish the negligence standard in favor of strict liability (or no liability) despite the obvious difficulties in administering it.
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
And to continue the tail of the poor oppressed people with religious beliefs is the case of a North Carolina Magistrate refuses to perform same sex marriage because it violates his religious beliefs.
It's unlikely this will pass muster, but it's going to take another round of lawsuits. In the meanwhile, the anti-gay crowd is piling on the religious belief attack in a way that will end up largely discrediting religious belief.
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So...um...what's the difference between not baking cakes in certain shapes and not baking cakes with certain personal messages on them?
That your business says it will do the one but not the other. If your business were to say that it would do no personalised messages then it would be fine not to do personalised messages. If you were to claim "We bake cakes in whatever shape you want" then the penis cake would be fine.
So, what's the problem with saying, "we do offer a discretionary customisation service [shape/ message] but reserve the right to refuse to [make/write] a product we consider offensive"?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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itsarumdo
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# 18174
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Posted
In that case the jury is out for making a special cake for the UK physiotherapy association ...
LOGO (designed by someone who never heard of Freud)
[ 16. October 2014, 09:41: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Justinian
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# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So...um...what's the difference between not baking cakes in certain shapes and not baking cakes with certain personal messages on them?
That your business says it will do the one but not the other. If your business were to say that it would do no personalised messages then it would be fine not to do personalised messages. If you were to claim "We bake cakes in whatever shape you want" then the penis cake would be fine.
So, what's the problem with saying, "we do offer a discretionary customisation service [shape/ message] but reserve the right to refuse to [make/write] a product we consider offensive"?
Again, that's exercising editorial control. There's a difference between being a publisher and being a printer and by actually approving the messages you write on the cakes you're opening up lots of cans of worms.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
So what about (showing my age here) the case of the Sex Pistols' album Never Mind the Bollocks, with employees of EMI refusing to print the record?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Again, that's exercising editorial control. There's a difference between being a publisher and being a printer and by actually approving the messages you write on the cakes you're opening up lots of cans of worms.
You're suggesting that a printer who refused to print porn, for example, would be setting himself up to take editorial responsibility for everything that came out of his printer's shop?
I find that point of view absurd. There are thousands of examples of vendors applying what we might call "community standards" without being held to this binary distinction that you have invented.
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Quite
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have just encountered another, rather different example which I don't think is totally off-topic in my line of work:
My client is selling his flat to Ms Purchaser who is in turn selling her own property. My client is also buying on and his sellers have become 'twitchy' of late (not unreasonably, as the transaction has become protracted). Ms Purchaser's buyer is getting a mortgage and the mortgage lender has commissioned a survey to be done on Ms Purchaser's property. We heard over three weeks ago that the survey was being held up because there was a wasps' nest ay Ms Purchaser's property and the surveyor couldn't attend until this was removed (health and safety, again not unreasonably).
I discovered yesterday that this wasps' nest is still in situ and, on blowing my gasket at the estate agent and the estate agent in turn venting her spleen at Ms Purchaser, we discover that the reason for the stay of execution is that Ms Purchaser is a practising Buddhist and has vowed never to harm a living creature. (I have to say that in my 20+ years of property law practice, that's a completely new one on me!)
So....should the rest of the chain be held to ransom by Ms P's no doubt sincerely-held belief, with the risk that the chain will collapse, or should Ms P really not be in the business of trying to move house, or...what?
That's an interesting one. I suppose I would say that the burden ought to be on Ms P to find a way out of this tangle or else to withdraw from her arrangements. (Me, I'd probably hire someone to come out and move the freaking nest, even if it meant dismantling the door or window frame and replacing it.) And I'd give her a time frame. She has the right to her religious practices, but not the right to insist that everyone else's lives be held up by them.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
...or, as it's autumn, you could just wait a few more weeks until they die naturally. Seems unfair on the other people in the chain, though (and why didn't she tell you immediately that she didn't want to kill the wasps?)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
That's kind of the line I've suggested to the estate agent to adopt: the little black-n-yellow fellows will be asleep or naturally dead by now so nice Mr Pest Controller can gently take out the nest and take it to the middle of the forest where they can all live out what remains of their days happily ever after...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Again, that's exercising editorial control. There's a difference between being a publisher and being a printer and by actually approving the messages you write on the cakes you're opening up lots of cans of worms.
You're suggesting that a printer who refused to print porn, for example, would be setting himself up to take editorial responsibility for everything that came out of his printer's shop?
That depends on how he did it. As far as I can tell no printer reads through everything they are asked to print and takes a line item veto.
quote:
I find that point of view absurd. There are thousands of examples of vendors applying what we might call "community standards" without being held to this binary distinction that you have invented.
There are indeed. People can decide what to stock on their own shelves. Plenty of newsagents don't stock porn. But when you go into a shop, what's there is what's on the shelves. Artists can choose their own commissions (sometimes) - and I don't in any way mean to imply that the best bakers aren't artists*.
* At time of linking there are some spectacularly good cakes on that page of cake wrecks. But cake wrecks specialises in both the sublime and the riduclous.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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