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Source: (consider it) Thread: Self interpreting Scriptures?
Jamat
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# 11621

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@ Mousethief:

Haven't we already discussed that one? But in any case, see below.

How would you interpret or exegete it?

quote:
How do you interpret this, and on what basis?
Well here's how I would do it. I am not theologically learned.

Text/context/co text

Text :Assume these words convey Jesus' meaning in translation

Context: Jewish understanding would be that in the OT, eating of flesh with blood was anathema and so his audience of disciples are intentionally being shocked
Context 2: the utterance occurs soon before Calvary. Jesus must be flagging his imminent crucifixion.

Co text: 1There are parallel utterances eg my flesh is real food,my blood is real drink. I am the bread of life, he who comes to me shall not hunger. Do this in memory of me.

Co text 2 Paul refers to the taking of bread by Jesus and says 'when supper was ended he took the Cup.' etc.. And By doing this we signify the Lord's death till he come.
There are others

Conclusion: Jesus has created for his immediate audience a violent paradigm shift. He has played on their OT knowledge of the Torah to force them to look at him as a sacrifice animal with his blood as a source of new life.
Paul has created a repeatable action by which believers can celebrate the source of their regeneration. He even goes so far as to enjoin that to eat and drink unworthily is to eat and drink damnation to oneself but to say the number of times one can do this is unrestricted. There is a chance to examine ones own heart as well as celebrate the new life..the new reality..the regeneration.

So the basis of this is text linked to context linked to co text.



[ 25. September 2016, 20:15: Message edited by: Jamat ]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Lil Buddah: Suffice it to say that certain viewpoints have an historic and ongoing negative effect on others, even extending into laws that should be neutral.
I take it from this that you are against any belief that the Bible is a consistent and overarching meta narrative of God's dealings with mankind as leading to wars, conflicts and prejudices and bad laws that we all should be crusading against. Please confirm.

If so, it is irrelevant to the truth or otherwise of whether afore mentioned Bible IS an overarching metanarrative of God's dealings with mankind.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Golden Key
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lB--

An excuse doesn't mean it's ok that something happened. It means that the doer may have mitigating circumstances, and therefore may not be at fault, as far as punishment.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's a literal interpretation that doesn't match reality in the slightest. What man? What wife? What fall?

ISTM that your discovery of post modern theory leads you to think that everything we experience is smoke and mirrors but then you,
'except Jesus'
as if this answers everything.

In response to your statement:

The man Jesus mentions, the woman Jesus mentions and, Fall? the reason Jesus came.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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orfeo

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Jamat, you seem to be setting up a false dichotomy so that if someone doesn't accept, as you do, that everything in Scripture is all in perfect harmony and true, they must believe that it's all a lie.

You've been on the Ship long enough, I would have thought, to grasp that that is a false dichotomy. The view of many people here is that there are things in the Bible that are problematic.

With all due respect, one of the most difficult things in talking to you is that you tend not to engage with any such notion of difficulty.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Jamat, you seem to be setting up a false dichotomy so that if someone doesn't accept, as you do, that everything in Scripture is all in perfect harmony and true, they must believe that it's all a lie.

You've been on the Ship long enough, I would have thought, to grasp that that is a false dichotomy. The view of many people here is that there are things in the Bible that are problematic.

With all due respect, one of the most difficult things in talking to you is that you tend not to engage with any such notion of difficulty.

With equal respect I am happy to discuss specifics. So far only Mousethief seems to want to do that. Show me the difficulty to discuss.

What you are really saying is that I disagree with people that have a different view. Well that is pretty obvious, so do you and everyone else. Perhaps define the 'false dichotomy' as opposed to X sees the Bible differently to Y which to me is simple disagreement?

Regarding the overall harmony of the Bible many scholars believe it, just not many shippies. Upon whom is the burden of proof the affirmers or deniers?

Let's consider Is 53. Is the person here Jesus? The Messiah but not Jesus? Or the nation of Israel personified? Rashi in the 11th century introduced the idea that it was national Israel to counter Christian polemics. Before that the Rabbis saw it as referring to Messiah who must suffer. Amazing how good the fit is with Jesus though. Much ink has been spilt but for mine, here we have a clear eg of fulfilled prophecy which has influenced my thinking regarding the integrity of the Bible.

BTW Orfeo I am responding to you as a shipmate rather than as a host but your post had a hostly tone. Hope that is OK.

[ 26. September 2016, 03:43: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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Jamat, I didn't ask you to exegete that passage and frankly don't give a rip about your exegesis of it.

You asked for an example. I gave an example. Yes, I know you have an interpretation of it. Thaaaaaat's Niiiiiiice. And rather in keeping with my point, which your explaining-away does nothing to counter.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Lil Buddah: Suffice it to say that certain viewpoints have an historic and ongoing negative effect on others, even extending into laws that should be neutral.
I take it from this that you are against any belief that the Bible is a consistent and overarching meta narrative of God's dealings with mankind as leading to wars, conflicts and prejudices and bad laws that we all should be crusading against. Please confirm.

If so, it is irrelevant to the truth or otherwise of whether afore mentioned Bible IS an overarching metanarrative of God's dealings with mankind.

I am saying that the Bible is not consistent, especially if read simplistically. I suppose I am saying that it is definitely not a fully realised meta-narrative. And that, if this were God's intention, either he or his human tools were very flawed.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lB--

An excuse doesn't mean it's ok that something happened. It means that the doer may have mitigating circumstances, and therefore may not be at fault, as far as punishment.

OK does not have a precise meaning. It can be anything from overwhelmingly positive affirmation to barely acceptable. And that fits the parameters of excuse.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What you are really saying is that I disagree with people that have a different view.

I am saying a little more than that. I am saying that you seem to have trouble agreeing to disagree on things that are open to interpretation, because you can't see why they might be open to interpretation.

--------------------
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's a literal interpretation that doesn't match reality in the slightest. What man? What wife? What fall?

ISTM that your discovery of post modern theory leads you to think that everything we experience is smoke and mirrors but then you,
'except Jesus'
as if this answers everything.

In response to your statement:

The man Jesus mentions, the woman Jesus mentions and, Fall? the reason Jesus came.

Well that's a start Jamat. Well done. On what basis did Jesus mention the man, the woman, the fall?

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Love wins

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Martin60
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And yes the 'Well done' was deliberately patronizing and provocative, for that I apologize, I should have said thank you for engaging.

--------------------
Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What you are really saying is that I disagree with people that have a different view.

I am saying a little more than that. I am saying that you seem to have trouble agreeing to disagree on things that are open to interpretation, because you can't see why they might be open to interpretation.
If agreeing to disagree is saying : " Hey, you might be right about that" then you are really giving in. You have to be genuinely convinced to do that with integrity. But in the present discussion,you seem to be asking me why Am I not convinced as it is patently obvious to everyone else here that the Bible couldn't possibly be a complete divine message.

@Mousethief: unsure that this is all about Your point whatever it is.

@Martin: when do you patronise simple faith. Everyone needs it right and how can it be in Jesus and not in the scriptures?

[ 26. September 2016, 18:31: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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Martin60
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Jamat: "@Martin: when do you patronise simple faith. Everyone needs it right and how can it be in Jesus and not in the scriptures?"

Never. Right and I don't know.

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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I had hoped you could engage with the question on what basis did Jesus mention the man, the woman, the fall?

I'm trying to make sense of this:

"@Martin: when do you patronise simple faith. Everyone needs it right and how can it be in Jesus and not in the scriptures?"

So Jesus had simple faith? Agreed. And if He had it IN the scriptures, which He did; He had to believe in the myths of scripture, it was culturally, intellectually, epistemologically impossible not to, then it is implicit in scripture that it is required of us?

Nope.

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Love wins

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Jamat
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You seem to want me to engage on the presupposition that scripture is based on myths.

You can't have a real Jesus if you put that as a caveat..not if Jesus is God. How could God allow his incarnation in human form to believe in myth? But since you can't go past that assumption, what use to you is your belief in Jesus? None.

What Jesus are you believing in? A possibly historical human about whom swirls myths? You could find a better role model than that.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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@ Martin. Here's a bloke I like listening to. Dave Hunt You tube Sermon.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You seem to want me to engage on the presupposition that scripture is based on myths.

Not at all. How could I? You don't. I do.

quote:

You can't have a real Jesus if you put that as a caveat..not if Jesus is God.

I can.

quote:

How could God allow his incarnation in human form to believe in myth?

How could He not?

quote:

But since you can't go past that assumption, what use to you is your belief in Jesus? None.

Why?

quote:

What Jesus are you believing in?

The same one as you: the one witnessed to in the New Testament.

quote:

A possibly historical human about whom swirls myths? You could find a better role model than that.

No, a definitely 100% historical 100% human. In literary terms He is 100% mythic too. The claim of divinity is literarily mythic. I accept the claim. I couldn't possibly do any better and neither can you or anyone else.

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Love wins

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What you are really saying is that I disagree with people that have a different view.

I am saying a little more than that. I am saying that you seem to have trouble agreeing to disagree on things that are open to interpretation, because you can't see why they might be open to interpretation.
If agreeing to disagree is saying : " Hey, you might be right about that" then you are really giving in. You have to be genuinely convinced to do that with integrity. But in the present discussion,you seem to be asking me why Am I not convinced as it is patently obvious to everyone else here that the Bible couldn't possibly be a complete divine message.

No. There's the false dichotomy again. If someone expresses doubts about the Bible being a complete divine message, that doesn't equate to thinking it is "patently obvious" that it's not a complete divine message. You seem locked into notions that "not believing X" is the same as "believing the opposite of X".

The question is rather: why are you so convinced that it IS a complete divine message that you feel the need to show those who aren't convinced it's a complete divine message that they are wrong?

Even by starting this thread, there's a sense that you are going out of your way to prove things. For whose benefit, exactly?

[ 26. September 2016, 22:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Martin60
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Simple faith trumps faith and reason. Look at the world. It's true. We just need lobotomies to embrace it, to be happy. Just stop thinking.

--------------------
Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What you are really saying is that I disagree with people that have a different view.

I am saying a little more than that. I am saying that you seem to have trouble agreeing to disagree on things that are open to interpretation, because you can't see why they might be open to interpretation.
If agreeing to disagree is saying : " Hey, you might be right about that" then you are really giving in. You have to be genuinely convinced to do that with integrity. But in the present discussion,you seem to be asking me why Am I not convinced as it is patently obvious to everyone else here that the Bible couldn't possibly be a complete divine message.

No. There's the false dichotomy again. The question is rather: why are you so convinced that it IS a complete divine message that you feel the need to show those who aren't convinced it's a complete divine message that they are wrong?

Even by starting this thread, there's a sense that you are going out of your way to prove things. For whose benefit, exactly?

I think it is called evangelism in the New Testament. So the false dichotomy is caring enough to affirm truth? Well, (shrug) feel free to ignore. One day everyone will answer for their choices ( if the Bible is correct). Sounds judgemental I know but there it is. Here's a question for you. What if you die and discover yourself on the wrong side of eternity. You've made a ghastly mistake and it is too late to remediate? 'Oh ***! my mates on SOF were mostly on the broad road.'

I only began this as the inerrancy thread was closed at the time.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
@Mousethief: unsure that this is all about Your point whatever it is.

You'll have to forgive me. I thought that when you put "@Mousethief" at the top of your post, that you were responding to me. My bad. I suppose thsis comment isn't addressed to me either, is it? <sings> I'm so vain, I probably think things directly addressed to me are about me*.


_______________
*or at least mean to relate to/with me**

===============
**but that doesn't scan

[ 26. September 2016, 22:56: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What you are really saying is that I disagree with people that have a different view.

I am saying a little more than that. I am saying that you seem to have trouble agreeing to disagree on things that are open to interpretation, because you can't see why they might be open to interpretation.
If agreeing to disagree is saying : " Hey, you might be right about that" then you are really giving in. You have to be genuinely convinced to do that with integrity. But in the present discussion,you seem to be asking me why Am I not convinced as it is patently obvious to everyone else here that the Bible couldn't possibly be a complete divine message.

No. There's the false dichotomy again. The question is rather: why are you so convinced that it IS a complete divine message that you feel the need to show those who aren't convinced it's a complete divine message that they are wrong?

Even by starting this thread, there's a sense that you are going out of your way to prove things. For whose benefit, exactly?

I think it is called evangelism in the New Testament. So the false dichotomy is caring enough to affirm truth? Well, (shrug) feel free to ignore. One day everyone will answer for their choices ( if the Bible is correct). Sounds judgemental I know but there it is. Here's a question for you. What if you die and discover yourself on the wrong side of eternity. You've made a ghastly mistake and it is too late to remediate? 'Oh ***! my mates on SOF were mostly on the broad road.'

I only began this as the inerrancy thread was closed at the time.

The issue is being so sure that you have the truth, in all its completeness, that you have to have everyone else agree with it.

Do you really think that everyone will answer for whether they interpret Scripture the same way? That doesn't seem Biblical to me. I was always taught that salvation came through faith in Jesus Christ, not through being in complete agreement with what every verse in the Bible meant.

I don't believe that the Bible condemns doubt, or questioning. If it does then I guess I'm fucked, but then one has to start asking why God created brains if we were forbidden to try using them. If God is only happy with one point of view, then God really ought to have pre-programmed it in, instead of allowing all this messy diversity of thought and all the difficulties involved in communicating through the imprecision of language (amplified by translation between languages and a couple of thousand years of cultural change).

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Martin60
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You and me both orfeo!

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
@ Martin. Here's a bloke I like listening to. Dave Hunt You tube Sermon.

What's his interpretation?

--------------------
Love wins

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
The issue is being so sure that you have the truth, in all its completeness, that you have to have everyone else agree with it.
I do not have that conviction. Only Kim Jong Un has that. Have I ever intimated any such conviction or are you inferring it? If so you are mistaken. I do think though that it is possible to have genuine faith. Not the Copeland kind where you talk and God jumps, but the kind that reassures that you are a kid in his family.
quote:
Do you really think that everyone will answer for whether they interpret Scripture the same way? That doesn't seem Biblical to me. I was always taught that salvation came through faith in Jesus Christ, not through being in complete agreement with what every verse in the Bible meant.
Certainly not and I agree such a view would not be Biblical. I think the basis of judgement is what you have done with the genuine understanding God has gifted you with. (To every man he has given a measure..)When you reject the truth I think he withdraws from you but that the door remains open. (While there's life ..hope)
quote:
I don't believe that the Bible condemns doubt, or questioning. If it does then I guess I'm fucked, but then one has to start asking why God created brains if we were forbidden to try using them. If God is only happy with one point of view, then God really ought to have pre-programmed it in, instead of allowing all this messy diversity of thought and all the difficulties involved in communicating through the imprecision of language (amplified by translation between languages and a couple of thousand years of cultural change).

Once again I agree. Doubt or questioning is not something that Jesus condemned. You just have to consider Thomas, Peter or the adulterous woman to get that it isn't at all about those things. Nor is it about using your brains or not using them. However, we are more than our bodies or our brains. I think the messy diversity you mention is accounted for if we let the Bible teach us with all its imperfect heroes who were often just as stuffed up as us. No, I think in the end it is about humility. Scripture says He fills the empty with good things.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
@ Martin. Here's a bloke I like listening to. Dave Hunt You tube Sermon.

What's his interpretation?
Whatever your want it to be

[Big Grin]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
quote:

How could God allow his incarnation in human form to believe in myth?

How could He not?
Now that is arguing like a Rabbi. I realise that Jesus laid aside his godly attributes to become human but would that have included his common sense?
quote:

But since you can't go past that assumption, what use to you is your belief in Jesus? None.

Why? [/QUOTE]
Because it is a figment of your imagination perhaps?
quote:

What Jesus are you believing in?

The same one as you: the one witnessed to in the New Testament.[/QUOTE]
Well I doubt it as he refuses to conform to our mentalities.
There's a kiwi poet called JK Baxter who wrote a poem called the Maori Jesus. Not the NT one though. Maori Jesus
quote:
No, a definitely 100% historical 100% human. In literary terms He is 100% mythic too. The claim of divinity is literarily mythic. I accept the claim. I couldn't possibly do any better and neither can you or anyone else. [/QB]
Here I think you fail Philosophy 101.You cannot ride multiple realities by saying all are mythical and also historical.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
[qb]
You can't have a real Jesus if you put that as a caveat..not if Jesus is God.

I can.
You have a logic problem here. Are you saying that you are constructing your reality to such an extent that a myth to you is more real than your reality? Sounds to me like Plato gone mad.


--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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# 953

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

--------------------
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
@ Martin. Here's a bloke I like listening to. Dave Hunt You tube Sermon.

What's his interpretation?
Whatever your want it to be

[Big Grin]

See, you are postmodern. That's what art is all about.

--------------------
Love wins

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St Deird
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You seem to want me to engage on the presupposition that scripture is based on myths.

You can't have a real Jesus if you put that as a caveat..not if Jesus is God. How could God allow his incarnation in human form to believe in myth? But since you can't go past that assumption, what use to you is your belief in Jesus? None.

What Jesus are you believing in? A possibly historical human about whom swirls myths? You could find a better role model than that.

1) I do not have a problem with Jesus, as God in human form, believing in myth.
2) I do not have a problem with worshipping such an incarnate God.

Why on earth do you feel qualified to claim that my belief in Jesus can be no good to me? I worship the incarnate God, NOT an "historical human about whom swirls myths". The fact that I disagree, minorly, about aspects of who Christ was does NOT mean that I don't believe that he was God incarnate.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No. There's the false dichotomy again. The question is rather: why are you so convinced that it IS a complete divine message that you feel the need to show those who aren't convinced it's a complete divine message that they are wrong?

Even by starting this thread, there's a sense that you are going out of your way to prove things. For whose benefit, exactly?

I think it is called evangelism in the New Testament. So the false dichotomy is caring enough to affirm truth? Well, (shrug) feel free to ignore. One day everyone will answer for their choices ( if the Bible is correct). Sounds judgemental I know but there it is. Here's a question for you. What if you die and discover yourself on the wrong side of eternity. You've made a ghastly mistake and it is too late to remediate? 'Oh ***! my mates on SOF were mostly on the broad road.'
Oh, screw that. What you're really saying is "Everything I believe to be truth is something that matters for eternity. Therefore, I am justified in pushing it on people, because I am affecting their eternal destiny."

Something can be true without affecting one's eternal destiny. You're not evangelising; you're just using that as justification for being pushy and ignoring nuance.

--------------------
They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:

quote:

How could God allow his incarnation in human form to believe in myth?

How could He not?

Now that is arguing like a Rabbi. I realise that Jesus laid aside his godly attributes to become human but would that have included his common sense?

To be fully human is to believe in myth. Fairy tales. Some have the opportunity to develop beyond that. Jesus did to a superhuman transcendent extent, by His divine nature, despite not having the culturally accreted intellectual tools to do so. What does common sense have to do with the retention of believing in myth? How does common sense enable one to believe myth? YECs have more common sense than all scientists?
quote:

quote:

But since you can't go past that assumption, what use to you is your belief in Jesus? None.

Why?

Because it is a figment of your imagination perhaps?
quote:


What? My belief in Jesus and its use to me? If you say so.
quote:

What Jesus are you believing in?

The same one as you: the one witnessed to in the New Testament.
[/QUOTE]
Well I doubt it as he refuses to conform to our mentalities.
There's a kiwi poet called JK Baxter who wrote a poem called the Maori Jesus. Not the NT one though. Maori Jesus
[/QUOTE]
So you do believe in the Jesus witnessed to in the New Testament, but you doubt that I do despite my saying that I do because he refuses to conform to our mentalities?
quote:

quote:

No, a definitely 100% historical 100% human. In literary terms He is 100% mythic too. The claim of divinity is literarily mythic. I accept the claim. I couldn't possibly do any better and neither can you or anyone else.

Here I think you fail Philosophy 101.

So you've taught philosophy. Wow.
quote:

You cannot ride multiple realities by saying all are mythical and also historical.
quote:


If you say so.
quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:

You can't have a real Jesus if you put that as a caveat..not if Jesus is God.

I can.

You have a logic problem here.

Where?
quote:

Are you saying that you are constructing your reality to such an extent that a myth to you is more real than your reality?

No.
quote:

Sounds to me like Plato gone mad.


Me too.

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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I feel degraded by this. Soiled. A fool. I only have myself to blame for having any hope that ... for any hope period. Vanity eh? Futility. I just failed very similarly with my 86 year old mother too. Will I ever learn? To give up trying to throw good thinking after bad?

I also feel reproached. If I have not charity ...

Not for the first time: God bless you Jamat.

--------------------
Love wins

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I feel degraded by this. Soiled. A fool. I only have myself to blame for having any hope that ... for any hope period. Vanity eh? Futility. I just failed very similarly with my 86 year old mother too. Will I ever learn? To give up trying to throw good thinking after bad?

I also feel reproached. If I have not charity ...

Not for the first time: God bless you Jamat.

Well that's just unnecessary. All I was saying was that two contradictory things cannot be true at the same time.
The Jesus of the Bible is neither a sacramental Jesus or a post-modern Jesus. He said himself in Matt 24 that false Christs would arise. You think you've come from where I am now but who made Derrida et al the holy screen to see everything through? Their insight ISTM was to allow for the validity of text to be determined by the reader's world as well as by the writer's. It isn't authoritative or unquestionable. The danger of a false Jesus is a false gospel that does not save.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:


Why on earth do you feel qualified to claim that my belief in Jesus can be no good to me? I worship the incarnate God, NOT an "historical human about whom swirls myths"

I have no idea what you believe. You are commenting of a conversation without recognising the context. I am interested though in what kind of nuance you think important.

[code]

[ 27. September 2016, 21:55: Message edited by: John Holding ]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Well that's just unnecessary. All I was saying was that two contradictory things cannot be true at the same time.

Yes they can. Indeed the whole of the Christian faith is built on that kind of oxymoron: the incarnation.

--------------------
arse

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Well that's just unnecessary. All I was saying was that two contradictory things cannot be true at the same time.

Yes they can. Indeed the whole of the Christian faith is built on that kind of oxymoron: the incarnation.
I would say paradox rather than oxymoron but YMMV.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Jamat--

quote:

I’ve always felt that a person’s intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic.

--American First Lady Abigail Adams. (Quotery)

NOTE: That's not a slam at your intelligence. Just pointing out that there are other ways to look at contradictions, FWIW.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Jamat--

quote:

I’ve always felt that a person’s intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic.

--American First Lady Abigail Adams. (Quotery)

NOTE: That's not a slam at your intelligence. Just pointing out that there are other ways to look at contradictions, FWIW.
Nice one ..depending one your gender?
[Smile]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I feel degraded by this. Soiled. A fool. I only have myself to blame for having any hope that ... for any hope period. Vanity eh? Futility. I just failed very similarly with my 86 year old mother too. Will I ever learn? To give up trying to throw good thinking after bad?

I also feel reproached. If I have not charity ...

Not for the first time: God bless you Jamat.

Well that's just unnecessary. All I was saying was that two contradictory things cannot be true at the same time.

mr cheesy said it Jamat. And I can assume nothing at all in this conversation.
quote:

The Jesus of the Bible is neither a sacramental Jesus or a post-modern Jesus.

Of course He isn't. Agreed. Why say it?
quote:

He said himself in Matt 24 that false Christs would arise.

I know. Mine isn't. Any more than yours.
quote:

You think you've come from where I am now

Fundamentalism. Not in your head.
quote:

but who made Derrida et al the holy screen to see everything through?

Evolution.
quote:

Their insight ISTM was to allow for the validity of text to be determined by the reader's world as well as by the writer's. It isn't authoritative or unquestionable.

It's rational. Evolutionary. We inevitably know more than the writer. Any writer. In accumulated technique, understanding, insight since they wrote. And less. Consciousness is such an ephemeral thing. Making up stories from stories is such a fraught business. Constantly edited, noisy, entropic, incoherent. There's no going back, as in this thread.
quote:

The danger of a false Jesus is a false gospel that does not save.

It certainly is. You can't know that you've fallen in to that pit. It'll be all right. That's the good news.

Because the true Jesus believed things that aren't true doesn't make them true or Him untrue.

--------------------
Love wins

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Jamat--

How are you defining "myth", please?

I know of at least two definitions:

--a story that is false;

--a deep Story that helps you live, which may or may not have factual elements.

ISTM you're using the first definition.

IMHO, Myth is based on story and truth; and Legend is based on story and fact. Sometimes, myth and legend intertwine, as with King Arthur.

Thx.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Jamat--

How are you defining "myth", please?

I know of at least two definitions:

--a story that is false;

--a deep Story that helps you live, which may or may not have factual elements.

ISTM you're using the first definition.

IMHO, Myth is based on story and truth; and Legend is based on story and fact. Sometimes, myth and legend intertwine, as with King Arthur.

Thx.

Agreed. The value of myth is in the 'deeper' truth implicit in the narrative. However, I was using it as 'untrue' belief.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Because the true Jesus believed things that aren't true doesn't make them true or Him untrue.
There is dissonance in this that I simply cannot digest, sorry.

Regarding your comments about evolution. Everyone here seems to swallow it but I do not but that is old ground. On another note, I do hope your health is holding up mate. [Votive]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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# 11621

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@Hosts
As stated, I only began this thread as the inerrancy one was temporarily closed. Should you wish to close it, and move this discussion there, I have no objection.
Jamat

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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That would be a pity because there really is a difference between inerrant and self-interpreting. Although this thread has devolved into a discussion of the former and the latter hasn't had a look-in since the OP.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Jamat--

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Jamat--

quote:

I’ve always felt that a person’s intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic.

--American First Lady Abigail Adams. (Quotery)

NOTE: That's not a slam at your intelligence. Just pointing out that there are other ways to look at contradictions, FWIW.
Nice one ..depending one your gender?
[Smile]

LOL. Abigail was an ardent feminist, at a time when women had very few rights. Don't know whether she was commenting on men, or just using the accepted pronoun.

If you look at the main page for her on that site, you'll see much more direct comments on patriarchy. She told her husband, John Adams, to "remember the ladies" in setting up the country. Don't know whether he didn't bother, or no one would listen. Wish *she'd* been president!

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That would be a pity because there really is a difference between inerrant and self-interpreting.

What is there to talk about? The bible is obviously not self-interpreting. If it was there would not be so many different interpretations.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That would be a pity because there really is a difference between inerrant and self-interpreting.

What is there to talk about? The bible is obviously not self-interpreting. If it was there would not be so many different interpretations.
It is assertive of its own authority as shown by the verses I quoted in the OP. So many times the writers claim "And the word of the Lord came to..."
If you define the word 'interpretation' you can look at it in one sense as the way a reader understands a specific meaning or alternatively as the way meaning is transferred. It is true that at times meaning in texts are layered and connotative and at other times they are denotative. It is already evident that the Bible is a library of varied works of genres from narrative to poetry. All of which adds up to a very general argument if held in a vacuum. I'm sure we mostly would agree that Paul claimed apostolic authority. However, was Peter appointed the first pope? I'd say that's a stretch but not to an RC. Biblical Text is certainly not self interpreting but just as certainly makes interpretive claims in the second sense. It claims to transfer a divine message.

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Because the true Jesus believed things that aren't true doesn't make them true or Him untrue.
There is dissonance in this that I simply cannot digest, sorry.

Regarding your comments about evolution. Everyone here seems to swallow it but I do not but that is old ground. On another note, I do hope your health is holding up mate. [Votive]

Thanks mate, I'll die fit as a fiddle. My BP is normal, blood sugar very well controlled.

No apology necessary on the fact that Jesus believed things that aren't true and that that does not invalidate Him in the slightest and that you can't compute that. He was not as wrong as you on evolution of course, according to His lights. The Greeks starting with Anaximander had inevitably intuited it rationally 600 years before Him of course.

Jesus was inevitably wrong by our current thinking across the board, how could He not be? His self interpretation of scripture was fully anciently Jewishly enculturated with ancient Greek and other Asian ideas thrown in for two thousand years, stewed in to the Jewish culture.

That's fully human. In which the fully divine incarnated.

--------------------
Love wins

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lilBuddha
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Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
It is true that at times meaning in texts are layered and connotative and at other times they are denotative
Translation: The bits one wants to believe are literal are and the bits one doesn't, are not.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That would be a pity because there really is a difference between inerrant and self-interpreting.

What is there to talk about? The bible is obviously not self-interpreting. If it was there would not be so many different interpretations.
It is assertive of its own authority as shown by the verses I quoted in the OP. So many times the writers claim "And the word of the Lord came to..."
If you define the word 'interpretation' you can look at it in one sense as the way a reader understands a specific meaning or alternatively as the way meaning is transferred. It is true that at times meaning in texts are layered and connotative and at other times they are denotative. It is already evident that the Bible is a library of varied works of genres from narrative to poetry. All of which adds up to a very general argument if held in a vacuum. I'm sure we mostly would agree that Paul claimed apostolic authority. However, was Peter appointed the first pope? I'd say that's a stretch but not to an RC. Biblical Text is certainly not self interpreting but just as certainly makes interpretive claims in the second sense. It claims to transfer a divine message.

Like kill every man, woman and child.

--------------------
Love wins

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