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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Glory   » Jennifer (from Hell) (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jennifer (from Hell)
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Eh. Sorry I picked this moment to air my long standing grievances against PeteC. I'm just now realising that "jennifer" is jlg and that this thread is turning into an important discussion about a subject close to me. (What Silver Faux said about guns time ten!)

Why in the world can't we have at least ten minutes to delete?

Posts: 6718 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
This is not easy stuff to deal with, and I don't think it helps to assess the measure of another Shipmates's reaction (to the event, the person or to God).

For what it's worth I personally have done better once I learned (fairly recently unfortunately – but better late than never) that I am not always the star of the dramas going on around me. Sometimes I'm a bit player or even just an audience member. And when I can realize that and say "This isn't primarily about me" I generally manage to react more appropriately and moderately. Of course if it is 'primarily about me' then all bets are off.

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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Evensong's a vulture Think. Not a word in All Saints, not a word in Purgatory, but if she smells carrion in Hell, she swoops.


[nothing to do with the OP and certainly not a defense of Evensnog's remark]

PeteC considers himself the Ship judge of Goodness and bases it on things like number of posts in All Saints vs posts in Hell. WTF?

Never once considering that posts in All Saints tend to center around people who are able to go to Meets, and people who feel liked and accepted enough here, to ask for support and prayer.

I can't speak for anyone else, but most of my ventures into the rarified arena of All Saints were usually slapped down immediately. For example, after all the thousands of posts on the AS United States threads, I ventured to ask a question there one time and was immediately told to go away by, who else?, then host PeteC of course, who, for years, kept All Saints an exclusive preserve of people and threads he, and he alone, deemed worthy.

I think it's much better now but I still don't have the All Saints habit and it's nothing to do with being a vulture. Mostly it's because I start at the top (Styx) and skim my way down. I'm usually caught up reading a thread in Purg or posting in Heaven or Hell long before I make it that far.

Number of posts in All Saints, indeed. I'll bet PeteC always volunteered to "take names" when the teacher was out of the room.

Might I suggest you call him to hell with a separate thread - if that's what you wish to do on this basis - I'd like to keep this thread to purpose if possible. I am sure you understand why.

Thanks,

Think²
Hellhost

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19194 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Why in the world can't we have at least ten minutes to delete?
A thought worthy of this thread in particular. Once it's done, it's done.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239

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Everyone keeps saying they have mixed feelings. I'm not sure I do. I'm angry. Angry that this shit happens. Angry that she did it. Angry for the child who saw all that and was caught up in the middle. Angry at alcoholics. Angry at people who think it's ok to have guns and alcohol in the same building. Angry.

But most of all, I'm angry at myself. Because I care about this. Because I'm upset at someone I never met, nor exchanged a memorable post with. Because I am involved in a community that I can't see and there is too much I don't know about each and every one of you to be able to trust anything posted here. Shit.

Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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I didn't start a thread in Hell because I instinctively knew there would be one. And because I knew some stupid fuckface would make it be - however briefly - about theology, and I'd feel protective enough to maul a bunch of posters.

So, this is better. Well said, comet. Well contributed Pyx_e and Silver Faux.

All Saints was good for saying how much I miss jlg, and how much I was affected by her. Purgatory let me face how much sense it doesn't make, despite having a semblance of grim logic plot-wise that let's me keep some sort of grip on the despair.

But here... here I can admit to a repugnant imp of smirking satisfaction deep within the cracks of me. It whispers confident understanding, "they broke a Hellion's heart, and that's what can happen." A stupid and ugly thought, but it's there. The imp nods along with the cumulative statement of Jennifer Gaines' last acts: an earth-rattling "FUCK. YOU."

Message received, Jen. Even though I suspect that it was only a maladaptive shred of you saying it.

Posts: 15173 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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I hadn't been with Jennifer in a long time -- haven't really "been" with anyone here in a while, and I am sorry for that.

But I did know her at one time. She's spent the night in my home. We've spent several consecutive days together with others in tow. I never really felt anything the least bit abberant from her, although I am a bit naive and generally only see the best in others.

She probably would have described herself as "an old hippie", and I imagine she was a true pacifist. She just seemed like the type who would have blown off an erring partner, decided he wasn't worth wasting any energy on. I keep wondering if he did something that was just so heinous to her (and it would have to be more than an affair, I would think), or if she just allowed her state of mind to carry her into a state of rage, be it unjustified or not.

I think the description sounds like just a crazed moment of random shooting by someone who had probably never fired a gun before. But I'm not a speculator, and there really is no point in it. The point is that, even if we "know" someone, we rarely know their hearts, their minds.

Satan is strong because he knows our weaknesses, and our weaknesses are much easier to manipulate than our strengths. For whatever reasons, I guess Jen had just run out of strengths.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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First, the easy part--thanks for opening this thread, Comet, and thanks for doing it in the manner you did. Thanks to SF, who has written some of the most heartfelt posts I've ever read (not just this one...) as well as some of the most annoying. Thanks to Pyx_e, for relating an incident in a manner that said just enough and not too much. I won't be that successful, I'm sure...

This was the second suicide I have faced this month--both people who at the best of times could only be classified as casual acquaintances. The problem is that each suicide brings up every suicide that has touched me in the past--the son of a choir member; Eddie, who had the most glorious tenor voice I have ever heard; David, who seemed to have everything in place (the most like Richard Cory, except that he didn't use a bullet).

I don't think so much about the selfishness anymore--perhaps because I'm older, I've buried my parents, and I've seen horrible deaths that were completely natural. In cases like David (the other from this month) or Jennifer, it is the sense of waste that comes over me--as well as the great wash of sadness that they could not feel how many people's lives they touched for the good.

I suspect we will never know the full details, but I know that the chemistry of the brain is an extremely delicate thing. My partner is diabetic, and there have been a number of low sugar episodes. He is literally "not there". The worst incident removed his power of speech (we had the EMTs in in the middle of the night). When the glucose drip started, I could tell the precise instant he "came back". Knowing the better aspects of her life, I would like to hope her manner of death was somehow caused by something similar.

Fortunately, it is not my place to judge her. Remembering that is actually a relief for me.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Thank you comet, and everyone who has posted so eloquently. My thoughts on this subject are confused, angry, raw and broken. Thank you for saying what I cannot.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8905 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176

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Wow, just wow.

I have written and erased before posting quite a few times on this thread, trying to get my head around what exactly I feel about this.

As others have posted, I didn't really know jlg, other than looking forward to her posts. And for some reason beavers stick in my mind. She used to post about the beavers in the pond behind her house. Just typing this makes me teary eyes.

My mother tried multiple times to commit suicide. I personally found her twice, as a teen. Once I toted her naked blood covered body down two flights of stairs while she screamed at me that it was my fault and I should let her die. Once, I found her with razor blade in hand, black X marks on her body where the veins were closest to the surface and easiest to reach. That time I hit her until she dropped the blade, and while screaming obscenities at her, I basically hog-tied her, dragged her to my car and dumped her at the emergency room. The last time, I wasn't there when she was found, once again naked and bloody in the bathroom, but somehow, I still got blamed by my entire family for the incident. She survived, but my mommy didn't and I will never again trust her fully. I fucking hate suicides.

At the same time, I have black shadows that lurk in my soul that occasionally tell me that driving into a bridge abuttment or sticking a hose into my vehicles exhaust pipe would be the best thing for me and the world in general. Oddly enough, I am utterly convinced that I will live to be 89 years old and so believe that if I ever acted on these dark thoughts I would just fuck up and end up helpless and miserable until I reached that age. Completely, irrationally, bug-fuck crazy, but it keeps me keeping on. I do, however, "get" the dangerous allure of the idea of just not having to do this shit anymore, regardless of the pain and anger such a selfish act would leave behind.

I also have dark red monsters lurking within me, twisting and turning and festering with irrational anger, rage and hatred. I have vivid and oddly satisfying (although simultaneously horrifying) dreams of killing people. Not random people; its only ever my mother (ironic ain't it), my piece of shit wife-beating first husband, and my bio-father. Once, when I was in my teens I let loose that awful rage. There was a foot long gash in my bedroom door from the impact of the shovel I swung at my bio-father's head. I could claim mitigation - he was beating the ever-loving hell out of me at the time- but that doesn't take away my horror at myself. I know that monster is there. in some ways, I may even feed that monster; but since then, the chains have held, dear God, the chains have held.

All of this to say that perhaps we are all conflicted, fucked-up, damaged, angry, lost, searching, desperate souls, gliding through life hidden by the thin veneer of civilization and manners and religion, constantly battling what ever monsters and shadows fester deep inside. I hate like hell that Jennifer's demons finally slipped their chains. I hate like hell that I am crying for someone who did these terrible things - physically to herself and to others and in some small way meta-way to us. Mostly, though, I think I hate that I will never read more posts about the beaver pond.

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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs

Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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comet - I suspect that the difference between 35 and having to start over and 60 and having to start over means a much bigger pit of despair to climb out of. I've done the starting over twice and neither was easy, but 12 years on from the last time, the thought of having to do it again really chills me to the bone, and I've got a while to get to 60.

If I'd ended up in a wreck of a house which was so ruinous I'd ended up with pneumonia, which damn well hurts, and without any of my support networks because I'd moved away from all the voluntary work I'd been doing, I'm not sure I would have been safe near guns and anyone I could blame either.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13597 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
moron
Shipmate
# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
BUT - having watched a 14-year-old friend die in front of me, after being shot in the stomach with a twelve-gauge shotgun in the hands of his deranged stepbrother, I will scream this:
If you have ever had any of those feelings, and you have any fucking guns in your home, stop what you are doing right now. This very second.
Pick up the telephone and call the police.
Ask them to come to your home, pick up your guns, take them away, and destroy them.
Don't wait to think it through. Just fucking well do it. Right now.

Because you are a helpless human who cannot control yourself.

[Disappointed]

And make sure they take the butter knives too.

Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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Fuck you, too, 205.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
BUT - having watched a 14-year-old friend die in front of me, after being shot in the stomach with a twelve-gauge shotgun in the hands of his deranged stepbrother, I will scream this:
If you have ever had any of those feelings, and you have any fucking guns in your home, stop what you are doing right now. This very second.
Pick up the telephone and call the police.
Ask them to come to your home, pick up your guns, take them away, and destroy them.
Don't wait to think it through. Just fucking well do it. Right now.

Because you are a helpless human who cannot control yourself.

[Disappointed]

And make sure they take the butter knives too.

I have spent this holiday season reading stories of people blowing away family members. Bad enough today there's one we know. This all comes with a report from the FBI today that there were a record number of guns sold during the Christmas shopping season. Some of the stories I've read aren't just about nut jobs or criminals, there have been stellar members of their community lose it for whatever reason - usually family disbanding. We don't need the guns - especially in the hands of an increasingly stressed and rage filled society.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

Posts: 2435 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
Fuck you, too, 205.

I had a whole speech prepared, but that says it best.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
BUT - having watched a 14-year-old friend die in front of me, after being shot in the stomach with a twelve-gauge shotgun in the hands of his deranged stepbrother, I will scream this:
If you have ever had any of those feelings, and you have any fucking guns in your home, stop what you are doing right now. This very second.
Pick up the telephone and call the police.
Ask them to come to your home, pick up your guns, take them away, and destroy them.
Don't wait to think it through. Just fucking well do it. Right now.

Because you are a helpless human who cannot control yourself.

[Disappointed]

And make sure they take the butter knives too.

Wow. You really are a drooling moron. I kind of suspected that, but this takes the cake.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

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I guess I'm missing something here too because I thought SF's post was sort of stupid since he seemed to be saying "If you are deranged (his word) call the police right now and give them your gun." which didn't seem very likely somehow. What am I missing that you all seem to be getting?

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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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His actual words are:

quote:
If you have ever had any of those feelings...
The problem is that all too often people get into a state where they can't control themselves and having a weapon puts everyone at risk.

My mother was a depressive and suicidal. It never meant that she was always in the throes of deep depression; she had her ups and downs. In her more lucid moments she was quite capable of making rational decisions. But when those low points came, she wasn't rational. Fortunately she never harmed anyone.

I read SF point to be a very smart one. Mental illness is like any chronic disease. There are good days and bad days. Use the good days to plan for the bad ones.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

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That makes sense.

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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
Wow, just wow...

Thank you for that.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
She probably would have described herself as "an old hippie", and I imagine she was a true pacifist. She just seemed like the type who would have blown off an erring partner, decided he wasn't worth wasting any energy on.

I think we're often most vulnerable to those weaknesses we think we don't have. Part of the tragi-comedy of human existence. Often profoundly unfunny, as now.

And Sine is spot on about it being easier to tell others how to behave. Sometimes we don't need to take the plank out of our own eyes to see clearly enough to see the speck of dust in a friend. You just have to hope someone's around to help you with your plank. It's one of the most difficult things to get right about a community - striking a balance between challenging others and interfering / controlling / oppressing. Perhaps there is no 'right balance'.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8909 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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(Crosspost)

My thing was, if you, or I, or someone like Ruth (say) had been inclined to express such a thought, we probably would have got a very different response.

I'm sure Faux is just as fucked up by all this as the rest of us. Why single him out for an emotionally charged comment? Scroll up, there's a lot of them!

[ 28. December 2011, 20:11: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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It's not often I agree wholeheartedly with Silver Faux, but this is one of them.

205, fuck you.

For good measure, Silver Faux may remember John Robarts, former Premier of Ontario. He became depressed after a series of strokes and shot himself with a shotgun given to him by the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party as a retirement gift.

Silver Faux is displaying admirable common sense. 205 is an idiot.

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NDP Federal Convention, Edmonton 2016: More Trots than the Calgary Stampede!

Posts: 7642 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520

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205, I guess you are a blithering idiot.

I know that there is a perspective that says that, as we are entitled to carry guns, we should do so.

Idiocy.

Lethal weapons seem to hold a fascination for certain types. Part of that fascination seems to be the need to try the weapon to see if it genuinely is lethal. Life is a hell of a lot easier for everybody if nobody is in a position to put their curiosity to the test.

If jlg hadn't been in a postion to get hold of a gun, there is a fair chance that none of us would be expressing opinions on this thread now. Taking one thing with another, that seems like a "good thing" to me. I support Silver Faux's comments - and dismiss yours as stupidity.

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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!

Posts: 1096 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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If there are any more fuckwits who want to come and shit on this thread, can I suggest that you take your excrement and insert it down your fucking throat.

For some people, this is painful. Probably those with hearts still beating in their bodies.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18686 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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What SF said.

My wife's cousin committed suicide with a military weapon, A close student friend tried to. In boot camp I saw co-recruits pretty much go into ecstasy the first time they got to fire their first salvo with an assault weapon.

Guns change people, alcohol changes people. Mix the two, add depression, and you open the gates of hell.
Guns create new possibilities, and alcohol gives these possibilities apparent scope. Yet many of us live in societies which will not wean themselves from glorifying alcohol and sanctioning gun ownership. Before pointing a finger at Jennifer, we should at least ponder this.

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... The Respectable

Posts: 1717 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315

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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
don't pray for me, Boogie. bring her back so I can shake her til her teeth rattle.

Adeodatus - damn fucking straight.

We can't bring her back. We can pray for you. And I don't give a fuck about how much you don't our prayers you've got them. I don't usually mention that I am praying for you people out there but I am. I suck at the public pray thing and think it speaks of self righteousness. So there you've made a sanctimonious shit out of me.

In the last ten years I have had students with diagnosed with diseases that will kill them. I have had students who have died during the school year. I have had a former youth that I was a minister to commit suicide his senior year. I have felt the anger and taken it out on people(some on this thread). I do not regret lashing out. I regret not saying thank you to those who were in there way being supportive of me. By the way Kelly thank you for some past kindness that I ignored and shouldn't have.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874

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quote:
Originally posted by Flausa:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Right here, right now, you know what I would do if I had a time machine? I would go to Calvary. And I would wait for that moment, that instant, when he realised that Sky Daddy wasn't going to come and save him. When he didn't scream "Have you forsaken me?" but "Why have you forsaken me?" When he felt, like a knife in his guts, the knowledge of what God does to his creation every second of every day: he leaves it to sink in the shit.

And that would be good. It would be good to hear God's own Son scream those words. Because for some of us those are the words we scream at God every single day of our miserable fucking lives.

I've been struggling to make sense of it all in light of Advent and Christmas. To recognize that in spite of the incarnation, shit still exists. The darkness is still with us. To hear that God made flesh hung in the shit and screamed and railed against it ... and died ... and rose again ... and still the shit exists. We grapple against the shit and still it exists. And Jen took a way out of the shit that created more shit. It makes absolutely no fucking sense.
This is all very good. I guess I've come to the conclusion that the road to the cross doesn't do something for us so we don't have to; the road to the cross shows us how to do it. Jesus dying shows us how to deal with the anguish of living.

Sometimes we make that work, for ourselves and others,
Sometimes we screw ourselves us,
Sometimes we screw others up,
Sometimes we do both.

Dunno, somehow this helps me to cope.

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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.

Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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?

Obviously it didn't strain our relationship, because I don't know what you mean. If anything I said helped you, I am glad. You're a good guy.

(that was to rugasaw)

[ 28. December 2011, 22:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
... This all comes with a report from the FBI today that there were a record number of guns sold during the Christmas shopping season. ....

The economy is tanking and people are losing their jobs and homes. Yeah, sure, having a gun will really make all that easier to cope with. [Waterworks] OliviaG
Posts: 5397 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
BUT - having watched a 14-year-old friend die in front of me, after being shot in the stomach with a twelve-gauge shotgun in the hands of his deranged stepbrother, I will scream this:
If you have ever had any of those feelings, and you have any fucking guns in your home, stop what you are doing right now. This very second.
Pick up the telephone and call the police.
Ask them to come to your home, pick up your guns, take them away, and destroy them.
Don't wait to think it through. Just fucking well do it. Right now.

Because you are a helpless human who cannot control yourself.

[Disappointed]

And make sure they take the butter knives too.

Your god given right to have your fucking guns leads to people with fucked minds killing others.

Enjoy your target practice. And when some dumb fuck kills somebody because they had access, pray it ain't somebody you know.

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
...We can't bring her back. We can pray for you. And I don't give a fuck about how much you don't our prayers you've got them. ...

Thank you, rugasaw.

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 14757 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Flausa:
I've been struggling to make sense of it all in light of Advent and Christmas. To recognize that in spite of the incarnation, shit still exists. The darkness is still with us. To hear that God made flesh hung in the shit and screamed and railed against it ... and died ... and rose again ... and still the shit exists. We grapple against the shit and still it exists. And Jen took a way out of the shit that created more shit. It makes absolutely no fucking sense.

You're right. It makes no sense.

Still---although the darkness is still with us, so is the light. Right after the Virginia Tech shootings, signs were put up all over our church saying, "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." We couldn't miss the fact that the darkness was there; it was good to be reminded that the light was also.

Up until that time I had thought that slogans were rather silly. I came to realize that when you can't think clearly, a slogan is a great thing to have, as long as it points you in the right direction. There was light in the darkness. The sympathetic support that everyone gave each other. There is a Baptist church right across the street from the campus. Students would wander in there and conduct prayer services. The pastor was glad to make the building available, and like all the clergy in town he made himself available. Everyone knew that there was a huge informal support system available, as well as the official system which the university set up.

I think we've got the same kind of support system going now. The darkness is very obvious, but the light does shine.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20260 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Ross, can I just take a moment to say how much I really, really like your sig today?

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
Fuck you, too, 205.

I had a whole speech prepared, but that says it best.
That works for me.

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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I think we all want so badly to make sense of this whole thing.

There is no sense to it. You cannot make sense of shooting a gun at three people and then shooting a gun at your own head.

What was jen thinking? Who in Heavens name knows? We sure as hell don't.

jen was human, like the rest of us. She had her wonderful moments and, I assume, wanted to think of herself as a good person. And yet, she did something gawd awful and then ended her life.

Will we profit by imagining what her motives were, or ascribing an intent to not intentionally harm a child?

Think about it. No, is the answer.

It is just bad. Really bad, and nothing anyone says can make it better.

David did a lot of good things and then his humanity made him cross several lines that should never be crossed.

jen did a lot of good things and then her humanity made her cross a line that should never be crossed.

Do you see a pattern here?

We are all, at the very heart of things, fuck ups. Give us a chance and we will undo all the good we have managed to do in life.

Why in God's name do you think we need Grace?

I wish I had a penny for every time I have under performed my own expectations about myself.

So. jen did great and wonderful things and made other people strong. Then she did something awful. Welcome to the Human Race.

Rant. Please rant. Do not try to work it out internally. What happened is just too big for that.

Then pray that you, and God, will find the strength together to make you better than you are. I know I have to.

Posts: 6903 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I read SF point to be a very smart one. Mental illness is like any chronic disease. There are good days and bad days. Use the good days to plan for the bad ones.

[Overused]

Oh, and 205? Go fuck yourself with a rusty farm implement, asshole.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63203 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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{{{{{{{Comet}}}}}}}, good rant.

Many good posts, especially from Adeodatus and Silver Faux.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18177 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
Because you are a helpless human who cannot control yourself.

So you, and everyone who might have access to your weapons, have a life so safe and untroubled that there's no possibility of any of you suffering a cognition-impairing event?

Smell the sulphur, boy, and realize that this is the wrong thread for your argument. Not just because you're wrong, but because you're too stupid to survive the mauling you'll get here and now. Save it for another time and place, when we have a possibility of giving a fuck about that particular philosophical masturbation.

Posts: 15173 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
[...] you're too stupid to survive the mauling you'll get here and now. [...]

Is he gonna get shot? Who's got a camera?

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

Posts: 7275 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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Mauling = way slower and more fun than shooting.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

Posts: 17022 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
# 12799

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
David did a lot of good things and then his humanity made him cross several lines that should never be crossed.

jen did a lot of good things and then her humanity made her cross a line that should never be crossed.

Thank you for that.

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

Posts: 3123 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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For the last two days I have had 'footprints in the sand' running through my head.

My precious child. During those periods of trials and tribulations, when you see only one set or footprints, it was then I was off hiding the fucking butter knives.

I will miss you jlg. Thankyou Tortuf, Comet et al.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

Posts: 3494 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
My precious child. During those periods of trials and tribulations, when you see only one set or footprints, it was then I was off hiding the fucking butter knives.


I love that Patdys. In this house we do have butter knives but I've found that one discreetly placed paring knife takes care of all my carving needs and blunt nosed paper scissors have replaced the big heavy pair I once had. Belts are a particular problem and should be chosen wisely. Take a walk through with an eye for quick destruction and you might find all sorts of things you can easily do without, bathrobes with long ties, old pain pills, cleaning stuff under the sink that isn't environmentally friendly anyway.

Because, "quick," is the operative word. Sure anyone can find some money and the car keys, drive downtown, find a store that's open, decide on which hunting knife or rope to buy (decisions are really hard at this point,) or wait three days for a gun permit, but those actions take organized thinking and time -- time to sober up, encounter a friend, fall down the steps and cry it out, or just get exhausted and sleep.

Posts: 6718 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
So you, and everyone who might have access to your weapons, have a life so safe and untroubled that there's no possibility of any of you suffering a cognition-impairing event?

My first father-in-law survived a gun accident as a child. His father had a shotgun in a garden shed, if I understood right, and playing with a neighborhood friend, friend found shotgun. Future F-I-L, having been taught it's *not* a toy, tried to take it away, put it back. And weapon went off. Killed neighbor kid. Derailed FFIL's life and made him a black-sheep forever.

It's harder to have a tragic butter-knife accident. And, in a world where kids learn to "shoot" adversaries in games, etc., making it that bit harder to translate into real-life just makes sense.

I don't know if the weapon Jen used was her own or his or ?? But wouldn't it have been great if no such weapon was at hand when she melted down?

In the meantime, I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm shocked - and we're out of sync with the world, which knew back in mid-September.

Go ahead and direct the blowtorch of rage at the cross-- he can take it.

--------------------
Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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A day passes, and red anger becomes grey moroseness. Don't get me wrong. If I was at Calvary, I'd still be asking the soldiers to let me have a go with the hammer. But over on the Purgatory thread, Moth wrote:
quote:
there are no monsters
and that's true. Not only was Jennifer not a monster herself, there also weren't any living in her mind or her soul or whatever. There were only wounds and scars and hurt. Those are the things that make us do fearful things.

But if there aren't any monsters, then there aren't any monster-slaying heroes either. Human life isn't about jousting with dragons: it's about tilting at windmills. Both triumph and true tragedy are vanishingly rare, and just as rare is a life that attains anything other than plodding banality. Death, however it comes, is the most banal aspect of all.

People have said they believe God will be compassionate with Jennifer. Where was his compassion in the moments before her death? They've said he will be gracious. Where was his grace when she needed it? Today I would rather believe that God views us with utter detachment and indifference. The alternative - that there is a monster in the world, and its name is God, is too frightening.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9771 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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I am never sure about hiding the sharp knives. If you are determined, you will find something. And sometimes, you can do more damage with the wrong tools.

I think dealing with the people is probably an easier route. And not letting people suffer in silence.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18686 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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quote:

...and just as rare is a life that attains anything other than plodding banality....

In a universe this vast - and likely desolate - every life is rare and every person a little miracle

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5216 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783

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I really tried hard not to do this, but if it will get one gun out of one house, I will give you a glimpse of the demons and black dogs I have seen face-to-face.
My friend died on the kitchen floor of his home, at 14 years old. Today, he would, could, have been 60 years old.
It was December 17, 1965, just about 3 pm; he had just watched a tv show that eneded at 3.
There was a Christmas tree in the backgound, and I managed to corral his younger sisters and get them out of the room as another friend turned him over, and he quickly died in his arms.

The teenager who had held the gun got into his father's pickup truck and drove around the country roads for two days until he ran out of gas and money to buy gas; as far as we know, he ate nothing during that time. The kid had been in my class in school, but was pretty much unteachable.
Today, maybe meds would have been successfully subscribed.

I was a pallbearer; my friend was in a cheap coffin covered with grey felt.
He spent the winter in a mausoleum, then his father dug a grave, and he lays in a spot unmarked and unvisited.
There were guns in every farmhouse along our rural road, including several in our home.
I just wish there had been no guns in the farmhouse across the road.
My friend would be 60 years old now, with grandchildren, if the gun had not been there that day.

For 46 years, I have had flashbacks; I can see the moment life left my friend's body, remember the colour of shirt he wore, see the huge pool of blood when they turned him over to try to revive him.
That night, a woman from the local United Chruch Women visited the home, and asked if there was anything anyone could do.
They had her wipe up the 2 quarts or so of blood, still there in a huge pool on the kitchen floor. With a Christmas tree in the background.

So now I will ask you again, more politely this time; if you have ever had thoughts of suicide or violence, and there is a gun or guns in your home, please, please, do something about it.
Right now. While you are in a frame of mind that allows you to.

--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783

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Sorry for the typo; this correction is probably not important to anyone but me, but the date my friend died was December 27th, 1965; I wrote December 17th in error.

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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged



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