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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jennifer (from Hell)
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Someone very dear to me was admitted to a psychiatric ward specifically to keep her away from the sharp knives. She found a box of matches, shut herself into a toilet cubicle and set fire to herself. So I agree with Schroedingers Cat that people who are determined will find something.

However, she survived; four months in the burns unit, skin grafts, permanent disfigurement BUT since then she has married a wonderful man and has had children. Tomorrow night we are having dinner together. She is the kindest, most loving person you could hope to meet.

A gun wouldn't have given her that second chance.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
A gun wouldn't have given her that second chance.

I don't like this whole discussion. I knew a man who shot himself in the head and survived. He damaged his optic nerve so severely that he was legally blind, and he destroyed his olfactory nerve. He had no sense of smell whatever. Otherwise, he was completely normal. If someone is desperately unhappy, everything with which they might injure themselves must be kept away from them--guns, sharp instruments, matches, ropes, poisons, etc. A friend who worked in a psychiatric hospital told me of a patient who killed himself by tying the sheet of his bed to the bedframe and throwing himself off the end of the bed.

Preventing suicide is not simple.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

Preventing suicide is not simple.

Moo

I took the thrust of the discussion to be as much about preventing murder.
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shamwari
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I have restrained myself from posting on either of the threads.

Not because I don't care. I have said my prayers for Jennifer and entrusted her to God's mercy and protection and (in spite of Pete C) I dont have to post here to do that.

Like Moo I dislike this thread. To me it says a whole lot more about those who post than it does about Jennifer. And I am alternately dismayed, and confused and sometimes angry with what I read.

I am not one for effing even if this is Hell.

But I cannot understand the picture oif God which has emerged. An inquest woulld likely conclude that Jennifer acted as she did while the balance of her mind was disturbed. There are reasons and mitigations and explanations for that - but God had nowt to do with it.

Adeotus complains where is God's mercy, compassion and grace? Does he/she not understand that compassion, mercy and grace are not forced upon us willy nilly? They are gift. And gifts have to be accepted. No good blaming God for the non-acceptance of what He offers. And maybe Jennifer was in no fit state of mind to accept anything.

I shall no doubt be mauled for sounding cold and hard-hearted. So be it. But if the world is as it is described in this thread then it is a terrible place to inhabit. And its inhabitants no less.


And its God is non-worshipable.

I dont believe that for one minute. And the one post that really offered Christian hope was a posting of Psalm 130.

With the Lord there is mercy and with Him is plentiful redemption.

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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:

I shall no doubt be mauled for sounding cold and hard-hearted. So be it. But if the world is as it is described in this thread then it is a terrible place to inhabit. And its inhabitants no less.


And its God is non-worshipable.

No doubt someone will be by to maul you shortly--but I'm not going to.

I would just point out that you have described the world as many people experience it, no matter how hard they try to find and worship God. The Church has never really had a good answer for those who suffer most terribly from depression--in part, I think, because those offering the attempted answers have no idea of what that suffering is like.

The worst I will say is that I think you have missed the complexity of this thread.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Porridge
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And the complexity of the humans posting on it, and their feelings about events like these.

I don't believe in God, at least most of the time. I harbor no quarrels with those who do; what the hell do I know, after all?

Damn all: that's what I know.

As it happens, it turns out that jlg lived perhaps an hour's drive from where I sit right now. What effort did I make to get to know her? None. No, I sat, and sit, cowering behind my little computer screen, blandly/blindly accepting the public face offered by the private jlg on these boards, secure and safe from any of the messy inconveniences and mystifying uncertainties and demands involved in reaching out, getting to know someone, dealing with the very complexities we're all struggling to cope with here. Would it have made any difference if I had? Almost certainly not.

But I don't know that either, do I?

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
To me it says a whole lot more about those who post than it does about Jennifer.

Every post everyone makes says something about themselves.
If one looks at the premise of a loving god as layed out by Christianity, rage and anger at him from such events is natural. Right or wrong is another issue, I am not judging anyone on this thread. Save perhaps one.
The pain on this thread tears me to bits. If I believed in your god, I'd be angry with him too. As it is, I am angry most with myself.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Thyme
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Adeodatus, thank you for your posts on this thread. Through them I have finally managed to come to an understanding of the atonement that makes sense to me. For that I am truly grateful.

I have posted more about jlg and alcoholism on the purgatory thread, in part as a response to those who think she was weak and lacking in self control.

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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
God had nowt to do with it.

Yes. That's the fucking problem. There is so much pain, anger, hurt, despair and emptiness in the world, and God just sits there and says "nowt to do with me".

Fucking bastard.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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shamwari
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So what do you expect God to do?

Intervene to forcibly prevent people doing stupid things?

Over-ride our choices and freedom of action?

Instead of bitching tell us exactly what you expect God to do. And that will tell us what kind of a God you believe in ( or dont believe as the case may be)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Over-ride our choices and freedom of action?

Yes. Free Will isn't worth the price we have to pay.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There is so much pain, anger, hurt, despair and emptiness in the world, and God just sits there and says "nowt to do with me".

Not sure that sending His only Son to be executed in one of the cruelest methods devised by man is saying "nowt to do with me"

Although I agree it does feel like this on many occasions, and this sounds very much like such an occasion.

*Shit shouldn't happen*. Yet it does.

[ETA code, T² Hellhost]

[ 29. December 2011, 17:10: Message edited by: Think² ]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Not sure that sending His only Son to be executed in one of the cruelest methods devised by man is saying "nowt to do with me"

That was over two thousand years ago, and it didn't work anyway.

Besides, would He accept the same argument from any of us? Is "I gave a few quid to charity a couple of decades ago, so I really don't have to do anything else for the poor ever again" a valid argument?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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There is a central problem in theology with the idea that an all loving, all powerful & all knowing God created a system in which he had to torture his own son to death to achieve something he was capable of doing anyway. To no demonstrable effect in the world today.

Likewise he could have created a system in which we had free will without evil entering into the world - just because limited beings as we are can't imagine it doesn't mean it could not have been done by an omnipotent super-being.

I yet to come across a satifactory explanation for this. But oddly, it hasn't turned me atheist - I don't know why.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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shamwari
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So Marvin reckons that free will isnt worth the price we have to pay.

So maybe he can advocate the alternative.

A race of automatons programmed to do only what is good.

In which case ditch all talk about right and good and bad and evil and courage and self-sacrifice. None of it would apply.

What Rook's amanuensis needs is a decent theology of the Incarnation and the Cross and the theodicy that goes with it.

Or else a Martian programme for life on earth.

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Paul.
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# 37

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Maybe this is just what life is. Maybe it wouldn't be so complicated if we didn't try to explain it all/blame it all on some Higher Power.
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I have restrained myself from posting on either of the threads.

Too bad your restraint didn't extend to this one.

quote:
Like Moo I dislike this thread.
Neither of you is compelled to read it. So just go the fuck away and do something else.

quote:
To me it says a whole lot more about those who post than it does about Jennifer.
No shit. So what?

quote:
And I am alternately dismayed, and confused and sometimes angry with what I read.
Then go read some pablum you can stomach.

quote:
I am not one for effing even if this is Hell.
No one cares.

quote:
But I cannot understand the picture oif God which has emerged.
Then maybe you should just shut the fuck up and think about it a long time, then come back with some questions instead of some blowhard preaching, asshole.

quote:
God had nowt to do with it.
The problem with your theology is that it simultaneously claims that God had nothing to do with Jen's horrible actions AND that God is almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and loving. Now God may very well be all those things, but if God is, then God is implicated in every fucking thing that happens.
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Fineline
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# 12143

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It's not as simple as what you're saying, shamwari.

In reality, if a parent sees their child about to do something which will have a terrible impact on that child's life - kill the child, disable the child, kill several children, etc. - the parent will do whatever it takes to stop the child. Screw free will - there are times when the parent takes control, for the greater good.

I am not saying that this automatically means God is cruel or doesn't care - but it does mean that there are things that don't make sense to us, and the neat little answer 'But hey, he gives us free will in his great love, so that explains everything' really doesn't explain everything at all.

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shamwari
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La la land is most definitely located on another planet.

And its inhabitants make assumptions about the theology of others which are caricatures at best.

[ 29. December 2011, 17:34: Message edited by: shamwari ]

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
... We don't need the guns - especially in the hands of an increasingly stressed and rage filled society.

That's one reason why I have the guns.

--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Squibs
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# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
Maybe this is just what life is. Maybe it wouldn't be so complicated if we didn't try to explain it all/blame it all on some Higher Power.

Bullshit. There are plenty of godless people busy fucking lives up. It is apparently part and parcel of being human.
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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
Maybe this is just what life is. Maybe it wouldn't be so complicated if we didn't try to explain it all/blame it all on some Higher Power.

Bullshit. There are plenty of godless people busy fucking lives up. It is apparently part and parcel of being human.
I didn't say it would be better. I just think that saying there's this all-powerful all-good Person looking out for us all makes it harder to explain this shit.

The rest of us still got to live with it - which ain't easy - but at least we don't have to square that particular circle.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
There is a central problem in theology with the idea that an all loving, all powerful & all knowing God created a system in which he had to torture his own son to death to achieve something he was capable of doing anyway. To no demonstrable effect in the world today.

Likewise he could have created a system in which we had free will without evil entering into the world - just because limited beings as we are can't imagine it doesn't mean it could not have been done by an omnipotent super-being.

I don't think G*d is all-powerful in the sense we usually mean it. I don't believe S/He has choice. There was no choice to create a world without evil; there was no choice to create Man without free will - that is why G*d identifies with the powerless in this world - they also have no choice. But then I don't believe God created a system in which Jesus "had" to be tortured to death.

But loved Patdys's comment on G*d hiding the fucking butter knives.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Hear, hear: If there's a God, and humans are created in Its image, then we're all running around like shoebox full of gerbils, hiding the fucking butter knives and congratulating ourselves on a job well done.

And what Ruth said.

QLib, what does all-powerful mean, then?

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
La la land is most definitely located on another planet.

It's clearly nowhere near the abyss of misunderstanding where you reside. Thank God.

quote:
And its inhabitants make assumptions about the theology of others which are caricatures at best.
Assumptions based on your asinine posts. So you had it coming.

Look, God's an ass, has been for a long time. You want to preach happy horseshit, fine, but don't expect people here to just take it.

[ 29. December 2011, 18:09: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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shamwari
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# 15556

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Marvin assures us that God is a F****** bastard.

Ruth assures us that "God is an ass and has been for a long time"

And I say that those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.

You are welcome in the asylum.

Meanwhile I have a job to do in the real world. I propose to get on with it.

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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What's the alternative, shamwari? If there is a god, and if he is not the monster he appears to be, tell us what he is like. Tell us how your idea of god is consistent with this world full of pain and suffering. From where I am sitting, it is evident that your god either doesn't care, doesn't know, cannot act, or doesn't exist.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Or else He's sweating, crying, suffering and dying right along with us.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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The world is not full of pain and suffering.

AtB Pyx_e.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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Jennifer's was.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Jennifer's was.

There are a lot of people on board who knew Jennifer better than I did, Scot, and you are probably one of them.

I hesitate to believe, however, that she would want her whole world defined by the aspects that overwhelmed her in the end.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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JoannaP
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Shamwari (and Evensong if you are still reading this thread)

A wise man once said that there is a time and a place for everything. When people are expressing deep pain and anguish, it is neither the time nor the place for theological discussion on the nature of God.

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Porridge
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# 15405

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If there's a god, that god does not understand us.

If there's a god, that god learned nothing, or at least nothing of any value, from incarnating among us, or from suffering and dying at our ignorant behest.

Unless of course, it learned vengeance: perhaps that's it. God, from living and suffering among us and being murdered by us, conceived the desire for vengeance: to torture us in payback for our equivalent failure to recognize, understand, or appreciate god.

Let's call it a standoff.

[ 29. December 2011, 19:37: Message edited by: Apocalypso ]

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Scot
Deck hand
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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I hesitate to believe, however, that she would want her whole world defined by the aspects that overwhelmed her in the end.

When one is in that place, the pain and suffering become the whole of the world. If god is there too, sweating, etc. as Janine suggests, then he's either no use or part of the problem.

Shamwari PMed me a book recommendation rather than answering here. Equally useful under fire as his god.

[ 29. December 2011, 19:41: Message edited by: Scot ]

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
When people are expressing deep pain and anguish, it is neither the time nor the place for theological discussion on the nature of God.

Deep pain and anguish is the birthplace of many people's theology. If they don't want it to be the subject of discussion, they shouldn't post here.
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Jennifer's was.

Was it? At what point did it become so? It wasn't always, to be sure -- so what happened? And how? God didn't put that first drink in her hand, nor did He give her the gun.

There's no doubt people's views of God are quite different, especially when the "blame game" is played. Why is everyone so much like Job's wife? "Curse God and die." I am so intrigued by life, both the good and the bad, that I can't imagine ever becoming so disillusioned or hopeless or helpless. I have no plans on surrendering to Satan OR to God for that matter. It is strictly a partnership, and I can (and do, unfortunately) chose either/or. But being an optimist/realist, I most often choose God to team with, because of hope.

Job's the man, IMHO. So matter-of-fact, so resigned, and yet -- it works. How CAN we be so willing to accept God's goodness, and yet be so bitter when the bad comes, as well? God never promises an easy life; merely a little extra moxie to deal with it.

I guess it just makes me feel a little more powerful and pretty fearless. Life is a challenge to be faced every day. I still say Dumbledore had it right: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." When something happens like this with Jen, it's a shame when that last choice becomes who we are. Let's not let that happen here.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
There is a central problem in theology with the idea that an all loving, all powerful & all knowing God created a system in which he had to torture his own son to death to achieve something he was capable of doing anyway. To no demonstrable effect in the world today.

I yet to come across a satisfactory explanation for this. But oddly, it hasn't turned me atheist - I don't know why.

quote:

That's me too.

We are curious beings and when something awful happens we seem compelled to try and make sense of it using all available resources.

I often ponder the possibility that Christian practice does more harm than good. But I guess it's no more feasible to ban it than it is for me to drop it.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Shamwari (and Evensong if you are still reading this thread)

A wise man once said that there is a time and a place for everything. When people are expressing deep pain and anguish, it is neither the time nor the place for theological discussion on the nature of God.

Yes, I agree - I don't thnk it's appropriate to engage further on this here.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Jennifer's was.

Demonstrably not.

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shamwari
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I will heed the recommendation and refrain from any further discussion on the nature of God in relation to this kind of issue.

But I am bound to say that to separate what we believe about God without reference to RL is to compartmentalise things in what I think is a totally unchristian way. Either God is related (and therefore relevant) to all that happens or He is totally irrelevant.

enuff said.

[ 29. December 2011, 20:09: Message edited by: shamwari ]

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Or else He's sweating, crying, suffering and dying right along with us.

I think that is my understanding of Jurgen Moltmanns interpretation of the cross, and it is the only one that helps me at all.

Jennifers death is shit. But it is part of the world we live in ( which is very full of pain, suffering, and fuck-knows what else ). The God I believe in is alongside me - us - in this, so not unconcerned, but to make it different would be to remake the world.

I don't expect this to satisfy most people. But I still retain a belief in God, despite the fact that a beautiful person like Jennifer could not cope with this world. I don;t claim it makes sense to anyone else.

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Scot
Deck hand
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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Life is a challenge to be faced every day. I still say Dumbledore had it right: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." When something happens like this with Jen, it's a shame when that last choice becomes who we are. Let's not let that happen here.

I completely agree with this. It is our choices. Jen made some really bad ones at the end, and it cost her. I'm disappointed in her and now this will always be her final statement.

That sucks, but it's real. That's life. I can deal with it.

What I won't sit still for is a bunch of twaddle about how some loving, omnipotent being was standing right beside Jen, suffering along with her, but chose not to intervene in any way. That's not love. That's not power. That's either a lie or a monster.

Jen didn't believe in such a thing, either.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
When something happens like this with Jen, it's a shame when that last choice becomes who we are. Let's not let that happen here.

This was the point I was trying to make. I'm not surprised Grits has said it better.

Jen had a lot of years when her problems did NOT overwhelm her--for whatever reasons. She had one day when they did.

I'm actually not particularly interested in either blaming or defending God--sometimes I can believe in God, sometimes I can't. Living my own life is complex enough without trying to figure out someone else's. I do think Jennifer's death shows that most anyone can "snap". If that happens to be me someday, I would hope that my friends (at least) could try to see my life in its totality.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Jennifer's was.

Demonstrably not.
I am speaking, not of all space and time, but of her personal reality at that place and that time.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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And I apologise for the blunt nature of my last two posts. With a degree of Irony; I have just spent a cold hour outside the house of a very ill man while the police and locksmith forced entry because his family had not heard from him since christmas day. He was passed out on the floor, again. In his world of pain he is surrounded by people who are hurting but also still trying, still hopeful, still willing to risk love.

I think about the nurse who will care tonight for the little girl who was shot. I wonder if she prayed before she came to work and another shift of broken people, I wonder if she found strength somewhere? God knows I need some, and Gods knows often I find it. Sometimes in this forsaken spot.

My badly made point was that in this world where there is much pain, there is much hope. The world is full of pain .............. and hope.

Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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I do not disagree with you, Pyx_e.

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Loquacious beachcomber
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# 8783

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I have been present at a church with memorial plagues to the war dead, one for each of two brothers.
One died in action at 18 years of age, the other, at 20.
They were the sons of the minister and his wife.
How did God allow millions of very young people to march off and kill each other?
If you watched your teenaged son or daughter take up arms and go to fight a foreign war, would it help or hinder your faith?
Is it a sign of faith, faithfulness, or insanity that these plages hang in a church?
Where was God when millions of beautiful people, whom we would probably consider to be children if we met them on the street, blew one another to smithereens in hopes of surviving for one more day?
Do you find comfort or abhorrence in your faith during wartime?

[ 29. December 2011, 20:36: Message edited by: Silver Faux ]

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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

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moron
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# 206

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FWIW, my approach to SF has been permanently skewed by his (presumably latent somewhere) 'How to be a successful troll' (title paraphrase from memory) thread; I thought if anyone here could take a jab, it was him.

If I thought wrong, my bad.


quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Smell the sulphur, boy, and realize that this is the wrong thread for your argument. Not just because you're wrong, but because you're too stupid to survive the mauling you'll get here and now. Save it for another time and place, when we have a possibility of giving a fuck about that particular philosophical masturbation.

When I have a bit more time soon I'll revisit my point in a Purg thread.


And to all the 'fuck you' folk: I've felt for some time now an obligation to provide an entity for you to feel superior to.

You're welcome.

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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783

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My apology for mis-spelling plaques as plagues, but...

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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Jennifer's was.

Was it? At what point did it become so? It wasn't always, to be sure -- so what happened? And how? God didn't put that first drink in her hand, nor did He give her the gun.
And he didn't take either from her hand either, and if he's omnipotent then the question of Why not? is very relevant.
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