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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jennifer (from Hell)
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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I do not disagree with you, Pyx_e.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:


And to all the 'fuck you' folk: I've felt for some time now an obligation to provide an entity for you to feel superior to.

You're welcome.

For the record, it was exactly the kind of piling on that followed that I was presuming you were setting up for Faux-- just because he's traditionally piled on. I really don't give a tin shit about anybody's views on gun control-- not even my own, at the moment. I just didn't like seeing someone's raw emotion treated like a checker piece. So I apologize for my part in this.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
I didn't say it would be better.

And I didn't say you did.

quote:
Originally posted by wilson: I just think that saying there's this all-powerful all-good Person looking out for us all makes it harder to explain this shit.

The rest of us still got to live with it - which ain't easy - but at least we don't have to square that particular circle.

As for explanation, if there is no God then you are correct, it does make it easier to explain. The answer is buried in the mind - somewhere between misfiring neurons and chemical imbalances. As a non believer you have perhaps located the source of the problem.

For the believers amongst suffering remains a burning problem. However, I do think that beside this mystery rests the promise of hope.


As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy. It is not a faith that would necessarily satisfy Ivan Karamazov, but neither is it one that his arguments can defeat: for it has set us free from optimism, and taught us hope instead. We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.”

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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
What's the alternative, shamwari? If there is a god, and if he is not the monster he appears to be, tell us what he is like. Tell us how your idea of god is consistent with this world full of pain and suffering. From where I am sitting, it is evident that your god either doesn't care, doesn't know, cannot act, or doesn't exist.

The other alternative is that he is doing something about it. You might not buy it but this option is, at least to my mind, the primary message of the NT.
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
To me it says a whole lot more about those who post than it does about Jennifer.

I doubt very much that Comet or any of the other people who have posted here are doing so to learn or disseminate information about Jennifer. In other words, no shit.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Over-ride our choices and freedom of action?

Yes. Free Will isn't worth the price we have to pay.
I can respect this position very much. I think God must think otherwise, but I don't know what She's got in mind that makes it so. I guess that's faith. Mine waxes and wanes like the moon, but is never so lovely.

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Likewise he could have created a system in which we had free will without evil entering into the world - just because limited beings as we are can't imagine it doesn't mean it could not have been done by an omnipotent super-being.

I can't see how we can say he could have done that, if we can't imagine how. Freewill is meaningless if there aren't at least 2 things to choose between.

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Meanwhile I have a job to do in the real world. I propose to get on with it.

Oh, good! First thing you've said that I like. Bye.

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
A wise man once said that there is a time and a place for everything. When people are expressing deep pain and anguish, it is neither the time nor the place for theological discussion on the nature of God.

To be fair, shamwari didn't start that. What it isn't the time for, is self-righteous, my-theodicy-is-better-than-your-theodicy scolding.

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I will heed the recommendation and refrain from any further discussion on the nature of God in relation to this kind of issue.

Dang, you came back. What you need to stop doing is preening your superior vision of God, and scolding us for not sharing it.

quote:
Originally posted by 205:
And to all the 'fuck you' folk: I've felt for some time now an obligation to provide an entity for you to feel superior to.

You're welcome.

Nice try.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Apropos of nothing at all, and in the absence of a god to be mad at, I find I'm mad at Jennifer.

Was there really nobody she could call? Was there really nobody she could go to? Was there really no step she could take that would have stuck a spoke into the wheel of this disaster?

Trust me, I know this is not reasonable. I am not reasonable. I am pissed off.

Years ago, in the first week of my first internship, I was stuck on the night desk at a mental health clinic, answering phones.

A client called, demanded Therapist X. I called, per routine, Dr. XYZ. Dr. X said, that's all right, she does that.

Client called again. "I need Dr. X." Again I relayed the call. Again Dr. X said not to worry, "She's like that."

This went on for a couple of hours. Did the client ever say anything about an emergency, a crisis, a change in status? No. Did Dr. X ever call her back? No. Why would he? There was no reason to suppose anything unusual was afoot.

Client had a gun. Client blew her lower jaw off with it. She survived. But she's "not like that" any more.

If Client had only said a word, groaned, sobbed, something . . . but she didn't. All she ever did was ask for Dr. X.

WHY?????????

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
When one is in that place, the pain and suffering become the whole of the world. If god is there too, sweating, etc. as Janine suggests, then he's either no use or part of the problem

But I wonder, without pain, can there be joy? Without wrong, would there be right? Without death, would we ever have lived? In other words, could God take these things from us and yet sustain our existence, our being, which ultimately emerges from how we make choices in an untidy universe far greater than we could ever understand?

Perhaps He has grounded our experience of existence by creating the entities we call evil. Perhaps this is He vehicle to give us what it means to be human, free and made in His image. Maybe He could have given us a more potent existence by providing greater, more terrible pitfalls, but instead chose to give us a state of being which, on the whole, is bearable. Maybe this is the expression of His Love.

But of course, I don't know. This is only speculative. As Grits and Pyx_e have wisely pointed out, there remains only hope. Hope that God is truly loving AND omnipotent.

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... The Respectable

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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a little unfair, maybe, Apocalypso - I have worked on a mental health phone line and mostly, the callers have just needed someone to talk to - however, if they don't say they are In Crisis how can you tell? Also, as I'm sure you know, services of all sorts are overstretched (esp. MH, which is Cinderella's least glamorous country cousin).

[ 29. December 2011, 23:27: Message edited by: Jahlove ]

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
But I wonder, without pain, can there be joy? Without wrong, would there be right? Without death, would we ever have lived? In other words, could God take these things from us and yet sustain our existence, our being, which ultimately emerges from how we make choices in an untidy universe far greater than we could ever understand?

Then you think that there will be pain and suffering in the after life - whatever your view of it is?
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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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Frankly, I don't know. Scripture would suggest not. However, I do wonder how many of the positive aspects of our existence I mentioned are going to be kept up. Maybe the afterlife will be a lot less freer. IMO, this topic alone would merit a Purg-thread.

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... The Respectable

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
Apropos of nothing at all, and in the absence of a god to be mad at, I find I'm mad at Jennifer.

Was there really nobody she could call? <snip>

A client called, demanded Therapist X. <snip>
Client called again. <snip>
This went on for a couple of hours.
<snip>
Did Dr. X ever call her back? No.




And you're mad at Jennifer for not calling her doctor?

Maybe she did but didn't know she was supposed to sob and groan to be taken seriously.

Last year I fell and broke big chunks out of both my tibia and my femur, displaced my knee and tore all the ligaments. I didn't cry or groan at any point. I was in the ER for hours and no one paid much attention to me until they saw the X-rays and then they came running with pain meds.

Many people of my and Jennifer's generation were taught never to cry and now we can barely do it at all. Medical staff shouldn't expect us to fake tears before giving us care.

Do the men have to cry and groan before Dr. X calls them back?

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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
Frankly, I don't know.

That's a fair enough answer, I guess. Still, I wonder if many people who presuppose that pain is somehow required for pleasure (that's loosely phrased, btw) haven't thought about what this might mean for the new heavens and the new earth.

Off topic though!

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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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Twilight, I don't know that Jennifer even had a doctor to call. I do know that, in the state where I live and work, and where Jennifer lived, that if you call 911 and say "I'm feeling homicidal / suicidal and I have a gun," police will show up at your door.

Will they show up in time? I don't know.

I have been in the position of having to make such calls on clients' behalf. I have not lost any clients yet.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
...My badly made point was that in this world where there is much pain, there is much hope. The world is full of pain .............. and hope.

Amen.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
What's the alternative, shamwari? If there is a god, and if he is not the monster he appears to be, tell us what he is like. Tell us how your idea of god is consistent with this world full of pain and suffering. From where I am sitting, it is evident that your god either doesn't care, doesn't know, cannot act, or doesn't exist.

The other alternative is that he is doing something about it. You might not buy it but this option is, at least to my mind, the primary message of the NT.
Evidence?

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
But I wonder, without pain, can there be joy? Without wrong, would there be right? Without death, would we ever have lived? In other words, could God take these things from us and yet sustain our existence, our being, which ultimately emerges from how we make choices in an untidy universe far greater than we could ever understand?

I agree that pain and death are essential parts of joy and life as we know them. That doesn't make them good things to be welcomed, and it definitely doesn't excuse a human or a god who fails to protect the ones they love from pain and death.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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A god who looks in on every action we take and makes it "better" is really great if you believe God does that.

I do not.

God did not look in on jen and say "Shoot that little fucker. He done you wrong."

God might have said, "Did you see what you have just done? Are you happy with that?"

Do you actually believe in a God who sits around and is OK with bad shit happening? Really?

Do you believe in a God who understands that bad stuff sometimes happens and wants the best for all involved after the outcome?

I do.

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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
...it definitely doesn't excuse a human or a god who fails to protect the ones they love from pain and death.

Above all else what we are guaranteed upon birth is pain and death. All of us will suffer and die. No one will be spared. What makes this different than every other time a person suffers and dies? Jennifer let us down. We got a glimpse of the beast at its worse, in the place of one which we thought above it.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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Yes, the human beast. Tell me again about god and how he makes this fucked up tragedy somehow better?

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Yes, the human beast. Tell me again about god and how he makes this fucked up tragedy somehow better?

I don't believe I have told you about God yet. I don't believe I have told you He makes this fucked up tragedy better. Simply put I am not sure God makes this tragedy any better at all. I have a relationship with God. It helps me. If it does fuck all for you I am sorry.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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No, you didn't. It was an open invitation to anyone willing to bring their weak assertions about a limp deity as if they meant something real.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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There's always the ol' standby fallback: God's ways are mysterious, and it's all to serve some Larger Purpose of God's that we just can't understand.

Too fucking right I can't understand.

Let me just say how grateful I am that nobody on this thread has tried to feed us that tripe.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Pants

Emergency underwear
# 999

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
I do know that, in the state where I live and work, and where Jennifer lived, that if you call 911 and say "I'm feeling homicidal / suicidal and I have a gun," police will show up at your home.

But I've never understood that bit either. If / when I've ever felt like that, the place I'm at is one where I don't want to talk to anyone or tell anyone, I just want to get on with it. It's not a rational place, so why on earth would anyone turn around and say 'oh hang on, I need to ring the police so they can stop me'.

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Many big thank yous to those who sponsored us.

I use £6m of military hardware to find hidden Tupperware in the woods.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
I agree that pain and death are essential parts of joy and life as we know them. That doesn't make them good things to be welcomed, and it definitely doesn't excuse a human or a god who fails to protect the ones they love from pain and death.

A partial god, saving those he loved from harm would be a monster. A G*d who loves us all and protected us from harm would be ridiculous - would you ever be able to even have a drink, or eat red meat or white sugar, or go out in winter unless wearing a nice warm coat?

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Shamwari--

Please read the archived "Calling God To Hell" thread. It wrestles with the same questions, from various sides. And if you focus on that for a while, and don't post on *this* thread, you may well be saved scorch marks, maulings, and impolite introductions to vintage rustic implements.

It will also save us some of the pain you're unwittingly causing.

Thx.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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When my daughter was a foreign exchange student in Thailand, she hit the six-month culture shock crisis point like a mack truck hits a stone cliff. suddenly my email, IM, phone messages, etc were full of, "Mom! I just want to come home! please!"

she begged. she cried. she sobbed. she gave me every reason in the book why she HAD to leave NOW. She was miserable. absolutely, utterly, torturously, miserable.

I said no. I said it over and over and over again for probably six weeks. daily. hourly at times. I felt like a monster. My baby was in a foreign country with no family around to help her. No one who understood her or her people or her lifestyle. On top of that, they decided to have a coup. I made sure she was safe, and then I kept saying no. I ached. it was awful. She sobbed and my heart got all squishy.

And I still said no.

I said no because I knew if I brought her home, for the rest of her life she'd have a shitty attitude about this whole other country. I said no because I knew she'd climb out of this blue spot and enjoy it again. I said no because I knew she had adventures to come and she needed to go through the low point to really taste the high points. I wanted my baby back but I knew she wasn't done cooking yet. I couldn't have her until she was done.

She didn't understand this. She didn't see it at all. She couldn't comprehend why on earth she had to stay over there when she could be safe at home. where she knew things. where it all fit in her comfortable little safe zone and she was cozy-warm. I couldn't explain to her that life is about stepping outside of your comfort zone and being scared, because that's where life is. that's where people are made.

I couldn't explain in a way that she would understand. so I kept saying no. and she hated me. sometimes, a lot. I was a cruel, witch of a mother who must have never loved her anyway, and obviously just wanted her gone.

I was tested as a mom, there. because it was about her. It wasn't even a moment about me. It was about forcing that baby bird out of the nest and standing by while she fell to the ground, praying those wings would work. Because what kind of mother would I be if I kept her safe and warm and unchallenged forever?

That shit ain't for sissies.

At the times I'm inclined to believe in god, I believe it's like this. God knows something I don't know. I need to suck it up and see it through. not for some existential "suffering makes me closer to heaven" bullshit, but for the here and now. when you have to wade through shit, it changes you. it builds you up. I, for one, am glad of who I am. and I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't had to go through some pretty rough stuff. But I didn't know that then. I had to have faith that this would work out. somehow.

I'm not even going to begin to attempt to explain why such horrible things happen. I don't have a bloody clue. But sometimes, when my brain feels open to the idea of a god, I take some comfort in thinking that that entity knows more than I do, and is letting things play out for a reason.

Sometimes good parenting is standing back.

--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
There's always the ol' standby fallback: God's ways are mysterious, and it's all to serve some Larger Purpose of God's that we just can't understand.

Too fucking right I can't understand.

Let me just say how grateful I am that nobody on this thread has tried to feed us that tripe.

Well now that you have done so yourself, maybe you could present your alternative cosmology, or explain how God/god should really be going about things?

I mean, in the face of eternity, this life and all it entails is really a bit of trifle, innit?

--------------------
... The Respectable

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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No, it's not "a bit of trifle". [Mad]

Here, we love, and hate, and cry, and worry, and fall down, and learn, and help each other. Every one of us matters HERE. Every one of us has life HERE. Every one of us is precious HERE.

If God thinks this life is a bit of trifle, then why bother incarnating? Healing people? Comforting people? Telling them off? Laughing and partying with them?

If what happens to us in this life doesn't matter, then IMHO we don't matter. We're just God's battered action figures--bent, chipped, left to melt in the back window of the car. Not loved into being Real, as the Velveteen Rabbit was. Not collectable. Not even good enough to repair.

If God thinks this life is a bit of trifle, then God doesn't take *us* seriously enough to realize and care about just how awful and painful and frustrating and maddening and destructive this life can be. Or God enjoys it...
[Projectile]

Give me a God who loves, and cares, and feels, and dives down into the muck and beauty of our world to help us transform it and ourselves. Even if the involvement is of the parent-of-a-toddler type: "C'mon, sweetie, you can do it, oops, YES! Oops. Oh, frack, you broke the lamp. Ok, c'mon, get back up...you can do it".

Give me a God who loves us enough to make sure we all get Home.

Lesser, stupider, meaner deities need not apply.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17663 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
A race of automatons programmed to do only what is good.

In which case ditch all talk about right and good and bad and evil and courage and self-sacrifice. None of it would apply.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29844 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Pants:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
I do know that, in the state where I live and work, and where Jennifer lived, that if you call 911 and say "I'm feeling homicidal / suicidal and I have a gun," police will show up at your home.

But I've never understood that bit either. If / when I've ever felt like that, the place I'm at is one where I don't want to talk to anyone or tell anyone, I just want to get on with it. It's not a rational place, so why on earth would anyone turn around and say 'oh hang on, I need to ring the police so they can stop me'.
The key point would be to notice your mood is sliding before it gets past the point where you will not ask for help.

And some people in this state do ring up and ask for help. The related problem, is that some people ring up every day, saying they are in great distress - and whatever you do seems to make no difference. It is then extremely difficult to know when it is an emergency and when it is not. MH staff are unfortunately not telepathic.

Similarly, Twilight, some people will turn up in A&E because they can't be arsed to go to their GP, or they have banged their finger. If you don't tell staff what is wrong then it is very difficult for them to help you.

If you say, well I have some pain, but its OK I can wait - and you show no external signs of extreme pain (no change in colour, no change in breathing pattern, and yes no tears) they will probably prioritise those people who appear more ill/injured ahead of you.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19151 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
God might have said, "Did you see what you have just done? Are you happy with that?"

I did not know Jennifer, so wouldn't want to make presumptions about her actions, but reading between the lines I would say that it was no accident that of the 4 people shot it was only herself who died.

Being here in the UK we don't see so many gun incidents fortunately. But the major ones that have occurred seem demonstrate a desire to kill not just to wound.

To my mind when these killers are in the midst of their actions it is the devil who is saying 'isn't this is fun'. Yet I believe in the moment they turn the weapon on themselves God's Voice does indeed say "Are you happy with what you have done?"

If the Christian doctrine is to make any sense whatsoever then surely some will be judged more mercifully than others.

[ETA Coding, formatting etc, Think² Hellhost]

[ 30. December 2011, 11:35: Message edited by: Think² ]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Well, I did tell them my leg was broken from the very first.

More to the point for Pants; I guess it's back to planning for the bad days on your good days by having a regular doctor you can call and hoping he'll call you back when needed. Also knowing what words to say when the time comes. Honestly, before reading this thread, I would never have thought to say, "He's in crisis," or "He's had a change of status."

I'm not criticizing the medical people on the ship, I've read your posts enough to know how caring you all are, but the story about Dr. X not calling back after repeated calls was absolutely horrible to me.

I've had to call the police for someone who was suicidal and it was the hardest call I've ever made. As it turns out they were experienced with the mentally ill and very careful and kind but sometimes these calls do end in death for either the ill one or the policeman, particularly if no one is around to assure nervous young officers that he/she is not armed.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I take your point about calling back Twilight, but some people do genuinely call eight times a day. It can make people worse if you respond each time. Because some forms of anxiety are actually made worse by reassurance seeking, likewise with dependent personality disorder.

It is a judgment call that has to be made individually and wholistically - ideally in collaboration with the service user. And one doesn't always get it right.

And sometimes when you do its not enough. I took a call from a service-user contemplating an overdose, reassured him, got him to agree to put the drugs aways, arranged the doctor to call him. He was seen and assessed by a crisis team. His regular worker went out to see him the next day. Nevertheless, about a week later he was found dead. We are still waiting to find out if he took his own life, but it is likely.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19151 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I think I get wanting to take one's own life - I have felt like that occasionally, and I get wanting to lash out at others. But I don't get acting on that, especially if the people aren't actually in front of you at the time.

Because, when I feel really crap all I want to do is curl up under stone and snarl at anyone who comes close. The whole going out and finding people would seem too much.

[ 30. December 2011, 11:51: Message edited by: Think² ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19151 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Meg the Red
Shipmate
# 11838

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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I couldn't explain to her that life is about stepping outside of your comfort zone and being scared, because that's where life is. that's where people are made. . . Sometimes good parenting is standing back.

On a complete tangent, comet, may I just say how lucky your daughter is to have you as a mom? I love my mother dearly, but I believe my life would have been very different if she hadn't so often and with the best intent rushed in to try and spare me pain.

As you were.

[ 30. December 2011, 12:29: Message edited by: Meg the Red ]

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Chocoholic Canuckistani Cyclopath

Posts: 1123 | From: Rat Creek | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783

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I honestly don't know whether this belongs here in the Hell forum, or in Purgatory, or in All Saints.
Probably, I should just STFU and let those who knew Jennifer far better than I grieve in their own way.
It bothers the hell out of me that someone who showed herself as pragmatic yet caring, clever yet witty, has gone forever in a burst of tragedy.
It bothers me that I can't truly empathize with jlg; I can't honestly say "I know what that must have felt like; there but for the grace of God go you and I."
I honestly have no clue what that level of rage and despair must have felt like.

I can empathize with the three people who were shot; in spades, I can empathize with them.
Nobody here needs to hear my thoughts on that right now, though.
Because I can't truly empathize with what Jennifer was feeling, I find myself analyzing the event.
And there, I am able to delude myself into finding a measure of comfort.

First, I would like to believe that it was Jennifer, herself, who called the police and paramedics.
The newspaper reports online (which I feel some guilt at even having read) describe a neighbour as saying she heard a single shot, then a cluster of shots, then another single shot as sirens arrived on scene.
If the telephone call for help came from within the house, Jennifer was the one remaining unwounded and holding the gun; she is the one who most logically would have been able to make the telephone call for help for her victims.
If anyone knows that to be untrue, please - don't tell me.
I urgently want to believe she made that choice.
Whether or not she did.

The other thing that jumps out at me is her retirement.
For some people, life without routine loses meaning.
Some of my parishoners who have retired replace work routine with leisure routine.
They leave for Florida the day after Boxing Day, begin to walk on the beach at exactly 8 am each day, have coffee at 10 or 10:30 to match their coffee time at work, eat lunch at the same time each day, take an afternoon nap; all part of a routine they have created for themselves.
Maybe no routine, mixed with alcholism, depression, and feelings of rage and betrayal were just too much.
Mainly, though, I am just selfish enough to hope I can never truly empathize with or understand Jennifer's actions.
Ever fibre of my being screams, "That contains just too much darkness; don't you dare even try to visit that spot."

Reading the three jlg threads help; even though they are messy and loud and even obnoxious at times.
I hope posting here is helpful to the wounded shippies aboard the Ship.
It is easier to empathize with you, even if I did not know your good friend nearly as well as many of you did.
This sucks massively, and I hope you scream your lungs out if you need to.

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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
I have worked on a mental health phone line and mostly, the callers have just needed someone to talk to - however, if they don't say they are In Crisis how can you tell?

When I was trained to answer the phones for the Samaritans we were taught to ask the caller if he was suicidal. We didn't ask at the very beginning of the call; we waited a minute or two. The answer was frequently surprising.

The ones who surprised me most were middle-aged women who sounded low-key but fairly calm. I would ask if they were planning to kill themselves, and they calmly said "Yes". I asked a few more questions to assess the immediacy of the danger and realized that this was a white-knuckle situation. I encouraged them to spill their guts, and after they had talked as much as they wanted about whatever was bothering them, they decided not to commit suicide right then. I asked them to promise to call us before they did anything to themselves.

I am surprised that callers to a crisis line are expected to say they are in crisis. We always asked questions so we could size up the situation. People who are in physical or mental distress are frequently incapable of making things clear to others.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20129 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Shamwari--

....

It will also save us some of the pain you're unwittingly causing.

Thx.

This is Hell...pain happens all ways around. The desire to make the pain only go one way is pointless and unhealthy.

And, for Pete's sake, this is still a Christ oriented website. To not have some guy coming in a Hell thread defending the happy God image when others are saying God is an ass would be impossible.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5020 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It is exactly the sort of thing we ask, but people do not always disclose. Certainly, in the case of statuary services, because they know that we may then actively try to prevent them.

Along with can I speak to so and so, no I'm afraid so and so isn't here - is there anything I can do to help ? No I have to speak to so and so. Which complicates things if so and so is on two weeks leave or whatever.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19151 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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One thing that made people more willing to talk to the Samaritans was that we had no way of knowing who was calling, and therefore no way of intervening. (This was in the days before caller ID, but I suspect the Samaritans would never use that anyway.)

The caller was completely in control of the situation. For people who hate to lose control, that was very important.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20129 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874

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quote:
Originally posted by comet:


I'm not even going to begin to attempt to explain why such horrible things happen. I don't have a bloody clue. But sometimes, when my brain feels open to the idea of a god, I take some comfort in thinking that that entity knows more than I do, and is letting things play out for a reason.

Sometimes good parenting is standing back.

And at all events, whether or not it gives an insight into the mind of God, living like this; I am sure that by facing the piles of shit head on and acting with courage, is better than explaining them away, fantasising them away or running away. Bringing your children up to live with courage like this will stand them in good stead.

This is not to say that this is a sure road to life, love, and happiness, just maybe the Will of God is not that we should suffer, or that we should be happy but that we should face both equally with courage. PIck up the cross, and all that stuff.

Must confess I don't always, even often, live like this.
[Roll Eyes]

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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.

Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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Thanks for not S-ing TFU Silver Faux.

I think the fact that three forums have been opened, (from All Saints to Hell), on this very disturbing news is helpful at this time.
Being new to the Ship I feel somewhat of a rubber-necker. But WTF this is Hell after-all.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3043 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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There are days when there seems to be so much pain in the world - in my own life, in the lives of friends and strangers - that I am amazed we don't all top oursleves.

When I was a child I had a recording of Treasure Island. It included the highly melodramatic pharse, just before a big battle, "And them that die will be the happy ones". That phrase often rings in my mind, but I would rather go Erin's route than jlg's as it is easier for those left behind.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8891 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Evidence?

Evidence of what?

That there is an understanding that the NT speaks of God working toward the new heavens and the new earth? Or that there is a claim that God is actively involved in creation, specifically our lives?

For the former see just about anything from Tom Wright. I'd recommend Simply Christian for start. For the latter, I dunno, really. Evidence will likely be in the form of personal accounts, and if you are of the mind to presuppose that miracles don't happen then you already have your answer. If you want a source that deals with the accounts of claimed miracles in some depth - both ancient and contemporary - then try the appropriately titled
Miracles by Craig Keneer. Both the above people have spoken publicly about their work and it isn't hard to find free audio sources.

Perhaps this deserves a purg thread of it's own?

Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
No, you didn't. It was an open invitation to anyone willing to bring their weak assertions about a limp deity as if they meant something real.

It's rather pointless making an open invitation when you beg the question. You already have your answer - there is no God. Now it's up to you to make sense of suffering as best you can.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
, but reading between the lines I would say that it was no accident that of the 4 people shot it was only herself who died.

One was shot 3 times, another in the face. Yes, it was an accident they survived.
I do not point this out to be cruel. We do ourselves and each other no favour painting a prettier picture than reality suggests.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16607 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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As posted in Purgatory, I don't think favours are done by jumping to conclusions about exactly how things ended up the way they did, either.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16990 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Even the conclusions of official inquests can be inference.
Regardless, what Jennifer did was monstrous as well as tragic. Enraging as well as heart-breaking. Not clean and simple as we might like. Important to remember this.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16607 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I have to say that yes, I get where jlg may have been coming from. I have been suicidal in the depths of despair. And in my youth I had such a violent, black, deadly temper at the same time as the despair that I could imagine myself doing something similar--right down to the child. (Realizing that scared the shit out of me and I've clamped down on it so much that most people around me believe I have NO temper at all. Ha.)

It's human. I think it could happen to anyone. I know it could happen to me. God have mercy.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19958 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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Silver Faux is right about guns. If you are subject to the sort of depression or rage that means you can imagine doing what Jennifer did, get the guns out of the house while you can.

You may well have the right to have a gun. You may also have the right to drive a car. But you don't have the right to drive a car if you're too impaired to do it safely. In fact, you have a responsibility, a duty, NOT to drive the car if you're impaired. And the same goes for guns. If you aren't safe with them, you shouldn't have them.

When I was a teenager, my daddy had a reaction to a medication he was taking that put him deep into a black hole. He realized that, if he wasn't there already, he was going to get to the point where he wasn't safe around guns. He told Mom to get all the guns, and put them away somewhere, and not to tell him where they were. She did.

Once Mom and Dad (and I suppose Dad's doctor) agreed that there was no further risk, the guns went back where they'd always been.

If he'd killed himself, or mom, or anyone else while he was in the medication-induced depression, it would have destroyed me. I might have lived, but the person I am now wouldn't have survived. He did the right thing.

And Jennifer ... she didn't. I don't know how to think about what she did. It's like Eliab said on the Purg thread -- I want to go back to the world where people who get a gun and go to their ex's place and shoot up a bunch of people are evil monsters. I don't want the world where ordinary people, people that I like, people whose company I enjoy, might do something like that. I don't want the world where I might be one of the neighbors saying, "I can't imagine the person I knew doing such a thing. She was always kind and cheerful. I never saw anything like this coming."

If Jennifer could do this, then what about my next-door neighbor who mows the lawn for the guy across the street who has cancer, and has given all the neighborhood kids permission to go into his back yard any time a ball or a frisbee goes over his fence? What about the neighbor we chat with when she's out walking her dog or working in her garden? Or the neighbors who always sit out on their porch steps to smoke their cigarettes?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

Posts: 10269 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged



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