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Source: (consider it) Thread: jlg's despair and death
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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As has been mentioned in All Saints, jlg has died.

But it was a complicated death, and we would ask to keep those complications from tainting our remembrance of her on her memorial thread in All Saints. So, we hope to contain the more unrestful discussion here instead.

jlg was Jennifer Gaines. It would seem that she went to the house she owned, wounded her estranged husband and another woman and a youth, then fatally shot herself. Jen's long-suffering alcoholism and depression are thought to be contributing factors. That's as much as I care to speculate at this time.

It's all a terrible shock, and I can't really attempt to express all the confusing maelstrom of feelings resulting from it just yet.

Maybe some of you can.

[ 27. December 2011, 19:03: Message edited by: RooK ]

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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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Good God!
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JB

Independent Thinker
# 1776

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Motherboard and I are shocked, Even though I read it, it doesn't seem real. Totally shocked and confused.

We met her at a ship meet and introduced us to the "Range Cafe" with her sister in the area. We won't be able to go there now without thinking of her.

--------------------
You live, you learn
You learn, you live

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Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874

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This terrible news has shocked me into posting for the first time in a long while. I could not have guessed that Jlg's life would end this way from what she posted on the ship and the way she posted it.

This is a salutary reminder that one never really 'knows' a person in an on line forum. Does one indeed, ever know anyone, I wonder?

My thoughts are, of course, with her surviving family.

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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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Lord have mercy. I trust that she is now at peace.

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I'm not dead yet.

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sophs

Sardonic Angel
# 2296

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quote:
Originally posted by JB:
Motherboard and I are shocked, Even though I read it, it doesn't seem real. Totally shocked and confused.

Amen.
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I was really, really volatile when I heard the news, which is not normal for me. I screamed at the computer screen. Personal stuff behind that, which I won't get into, but I was used to thinking of myself as impossibly weaker than her. My reaction was "What, YOU?"

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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We, all of us, lead complex lives, only a small part of which we show publicly. We like to think that we can keep our demons sufficiently suppressed and under control, but sometimes they get the best of us.

I've had correspondence with Jennifer and met her once. She kept her demons adequately hidden. What a tragedy that she reached the point where she could do so no more.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

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This is unutterably sad. I don't suppose it's betraying any confidences at this point to say she tried to get help and certainly fought against her demons as best she could. And did so with her own self-deprecating humor and humility.

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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

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marmot

Mountain mammal
# 479

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Jen was such a common-sense, no-nonsense kind of person, I can't even imagine the kind of pain it would take to cause her to make such a decision.

She was a friend to me, and I'm sorry that her despair was beyond our reach to help.

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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"

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Pants

Emergency underwear
# 999

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
My reaction was "What, YOU?"

I'm still sat here in shock. Having Googled and read various news reports, I just don't know what to think. Is it easier to present a 'front' when online, to create that alternative persona.

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Many big thank yous to those who sponsored us.

I use £6m of military hardware to find hidden Tupperware in the woods.

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Flausa

Mad Woman
# 3466

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I can understand how depression can lead to self harm, so I can understand how Jen could have been swallowed by darkness. But I cannot wrap my brain and heart around the Jen I knew inflicting harm on others, including a child. The darkness can be soooo very dark, but I choose to remember the light that was in her. My favourite Catholic Buddhist.
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Amos

Shipmate
# 44

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There, but for luck and circumstance...
What seems clear is the intolerable pain jlg was in, that, and that she really did not want to kill anyone but herself: if she had done, she would have done.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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sophs

Sardonic Angel
# 2296

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quote:
Originally posted by Flausa:
I can understand how depression can lead to self harm, so I can understand how Jen could have been swallowed by darkness. But I cannot wrap my brain and heart around the Jen I knew inflicting harm on others, including a child.

One of the major things I learned this summer was that when is swallowing someone, they don't know their own strength. Even attempting someone hurting themselves in the midst of despair and grief can often lead to other people getting hurt. I thought I was being bitten whilst trying to stop a very distressed friend from punching an ex-friend, but really the friend fall on my arm with her mouth open.

None of us were eye witnesses, and none of the newspaper reports I read had any sort of timeline or explanations. I guess my real point here is that I don't know the full story, and I'd guess that most of us here don't either, we just need to piece it together slowly.

And pray.
[Votive]

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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This doesn't seem possible - and yet it has happened. [Votive] for all those who suffer pain, and yet hide it behind a cheerful face.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Beautiful Dreamer
Shipmate
# 10880

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I know in my head that I couldn't have done anything to prevent this, but I wish in my heart that I could make everything right again and take away her pain. [Votive]

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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

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LutheranChik
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# 9826

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When I was feverish and delirious with food poisoning, I apparently started trying to hit my partner and I accused her of trying to hurt ME. I have no memory of any of this. The idea that I could not only not be aware of and in control of my behavior but be VIOLENT toward the person I love the most was so shocking to me that I've been having a very hard time forgiving myself. My only memory of that four days was alternately lying in bed wishing I were dead and crawling into the bathroom and wishing I were dead. But after I was clothed and in my right mind she showed me some of the weird stuff I'd been doing, up and walking around and being belligerent. Again, no memory of this at all.

I've heard of other people having similar reactions to certain sleep medications. My normally funny and mild-mannered aunt became physically belligerent when her health deteriorated and we had to put her in a care facility; had to be strapped onto a gurney by burly law enforcement officers, and was shouting words I had no idea she knew. And a few years ago my partner had a strange reaction to NOT taking one of her medications where she became frighteningly angry, to the point where I became concerned enough for my safety to consider moving out until she saw her doctor. She, like me, had no idea that she'd said or done anything out of the ordinary, and was appalled to later hear what had gone on.

I think the human mind is a pretty complex and scary thing. All I know is that if there is any -- ANY -- tool in the human or Divine toolkit that can somehow reduce that violent lizard-brain behavior should I ever again become delirious (deliver me, o Lord) with some illness...I don't want to hurt anyone ever again. I repent in sackcloth and ashes, and I'm not being flip. But I've developed a new understanding of being able to do some real harm without really knowing what I was doing.

Everyone carries burdens that even the people closest to him or her may not realize. God help us all.

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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snowgoose

Silly goose
# 4394

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Depression can destroy a person. So can alcoholism. And, remember, she was recovering from a nasty bout of double pneumonia at the time. I know from my own experience that being physically ill can make depression even deeper and darker.

We will never know what horrors she was suffering. I hope those who were wounded recover fully. I am so sad that she got to a point where all this could happen.

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Lord, what can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man? --Terry Pratchett

Save a Siamese!

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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

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Depression can be severe enough to enter into the realm of the psychotic. And that's without added stressors of other illnesses, and all the other factors we don't sufficiently understand.
There are certainly violent people who are very clear-headed about what they've done and why; others, though -- I don't think they know. Which adds to the sadness and scariness.

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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Anna B
Shipmate
# 1439

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I don't suppose it's betraying any confidences at this point to say she tried to get help and certainly fought against her demons as best she could. And did so with her own self-deprecating humor and humility.

Thank you for posting that, Sine. Your words have helped me make some sense of this.

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Bad Christian (TM)

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Esmeralda

Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582

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I can understand wanting to kill someone else better than I can understand wanting to kill oneself. But that's partly because I have such a strong inhibition against suicide because my brother did it and I saw the effect it had on everyone else, including me.

I think jlg was brave for shooting herself before she did anyone else more harm.

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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.

http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/

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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170

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May the Lord have mercy on jlg and her family. She was one of a handful of shipmates that I've had contact with off the ship and this comes as a horrible surprise. May she rest in peace and rise in glory. [Votive]

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All hearts are open, all desires known

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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437

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What an awful surprise.

I never had any personal correspondence with her. However, I regularly saw her name on posts, which, as I can best recall and as has been noted above were thoughtful and witty.

One just never knows the pains that may be hidden within a person. Into your hands O Lord, take our sister Jennifer. [Votive]

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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I didn't realize she struggled with alcohol herself. That makes certain interchanges I had with her make more sense.

It's terrible what people are capable of, even ones you would never think could be.

I will miss her from the ship.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Bronwyn
Shipmate
# 52

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Not saying this was the case here but. In the movie Forrest Gump there was a scene in which the adult Jenni went back to the childhood house of her abuse. She threw stones at it and then stopped exausted emotionally. Forrest says sometimes there are just not enough stones.
Always remember this as an expression when I see frustration hurt and anger of abused people who as a result struggle as adults to cope and make bad decisions may lash out and try to keep going. Sometimes there just isn't the strength to keep going.

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Fragile X syndrome is part of our lives. Someone I love makes me proud who has this syndrome. I love you Miriam.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Flausa:
But I cannot wrap my brain and heart around the Jen I knew inflicting harm on others, including a child.

Think it is worth adding, through doing some internet research, that it seems unlikely to me that she was intending to hurt the child. And the two adults injured have made good enough recoveries to be actively using facebook. I hope she knew she had not murdered anyone when she died.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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Miss Amanda spoke the truth:
quote:
We, all of us, lead complex lives, only a small part of which we show publicly. We like to think that we can keep our demons sufficiently suppressed and under control, but sometimes they get the best of us.
I think we also look at others and think them so much better put together than we are (speaking for myself, this is true). This makes it harder to open up and share the pain inside.

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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A relative I love very much had a psychotic break when under less stress than JLG. Just absolutely snapped, and violently. I don't think the Lord laid any of that to their personal account.

Martin Luther compared it to being a man suddenly ambushed by robbers who overwhelm you with superior strength no matter what you do. He considered the person to be a victim, and held Satan to be fully responsible in such cases.

[ 27. December 2011, 22:40: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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dolphy

Lady of Perpetual Responsiblity
# 862

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I have only just read about this via facebook - where no names were mentioned but someone said to look in All Saints.

I can not believe what I have read on the Ship and also on the links that are out there, but I know that I have to believe that jlg is gone and I have to believe what took place that day.

It is so sad to think that someone we thought we knew was in a place that must have felt so dark and so lonely.

I pray for her family and, for her to be at peace..

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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861

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quote:
Originally posted by dolphy:
It is so sad to think that someone we thought we knew was in a place that must have felt so dark and so lonely.

AS I posted on the AS thread, she has been released.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
it seems unlikely to me that she was intending to hurt the child. And the two adults injured have made good enough recoveries to be actively using facebook. I hope she knew she had not murdered anyone when she died.

I find this a profound insight. In the darkness of despair (into which Christlight always shines) we can do the most inexplicable things; somehow in the hellish paroxysms of Jen's last hours there was darkness and light. Let us pray the light has the final word. It will.

[Votive]

I liked jen a lot, shipboard. It is only a few real personalities that climb out from our shared anonymity. That says something about her authenticity, however tortured it may have been. I'm glad she passed through my life, even if the passing was 'only' an e-passing.

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
This doesn't seem possible - and yet it has happened. [Votive] for all those who suffer pain, and yet hide it behind a cheerful face.

And on that note, may I be the kind of friend who doesn't require someone to keep that smile on when they just can't do it.

Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Mother Julian

Ship's librarian
# 11978

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Oh my gosh, if only I / we could have done something to help. May she find peace now, my prayers ascend for her and all impacted by this terrible situation.

It's horrible to think this happened in September, and yet our grief only surfaces in December, those months when we didn't know and carried on our quotidian lives.

And a personal confession, I was reading about some recent stabbings and shootings in the UK, thinking this doesn't directly affect me in my relatively comfortable life; enjoying reading SoF's boards as a refuge, a haven from what goes on in the world and elsewhere in my life. What a wake-up call: we're all interconnected, we're all struggling in our own ways, may God preserve us from burdens that seem too strong to bear.

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The corn was orient and immortal wheat which never should be reaped, nor was ever sown.

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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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It was wise to post this in Purgatory as well as in All Saints.

This sorely tests my two non-intersecting belief systems: the one about the power of the demonic, and the one about moral responsibility.

According to internet accounts, Jennifer attacked and wounded three people. I'm reading a lot of sympathy for her pain, and the duress she was under as she pointed a gun and shot her victims.

She was herself a victim too; I get that. I have enough of a mediaeval religious imagination - plus some small experience of the baffling and outrageous power of evil - to imagine that she was in the grip of forces stronger than herself. Alcoholism and Depression are the names of two extremely powerful, destructive, and largely inexplicable demonic forces.

On the other hand, perhaps it does not do justice to Jennifer to rob her of moral agency. Perhaps it does no justice to humanity either. Are we still gawping open-mouthed at paintings of demons which can control us? Were the chemicals sloshing around in Jennifer's brain such that she could no longer distinguish between right and wrong? Maybe. I don't know; I have never drunk that cup and hope not to. But I am angry with her that in her own pain and woundedness, she (in some way, with whatever degree of culpability you choose to assign) externalized it and violently attacked others.

I am surprised to find my reaction is the opposite of Esmeralda's: I can understand wanting to kill oneself better than I can understand wanting to kill others. I can't point to any particular experience or even depression leading me to that different sense of inhibition.

I'd find it easier to just go with the "sad at demonic possession" emotion and theodicy, which I do honestly feel and think. But in all honesty, I am bothered by the question of the role of moral agency. I do not know how to reconcile these for myself, let alone how to advise anyone else considering these things.

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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This is sad beyond words.

This is shocking beyond words. (At least mine.)

The only thing I can add is to look to the whole of jlg, not just her death. She had many good and wise moments. That, at the end of her life, she did things that are problematic, does not change or lessen the good things she did.

We are all complex and many of us think much less of ourselves than others do.

I don't know what god has out there for us, but I hope that Jennifer finds some peace.

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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My interactions with jlg were limited but enjoyable (mostly about music), and I valued her as a shipmate.

I work every day with people who have done terrible things that they would not have done had they been masters of themselves--and this includes people who seemed to have managed very well all their lives until something went terribly wrong. I can only imagine what stresses could have pushed jlg over that line, but in so many cases I have seen it has been a feeling of abandonment and betrayal so intense that it made thinking all but impossible, especially when it was added onto a preexisting vulnerability (bipolar disorder, trauma, addiction). One thing I will never believe again is that any of us is incapable of anything. And yes, we have choices and agency, but sometimes we don't see the critical choice coming until we're no longer able to see the alternative.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Peace, light, and healing to JLG and all affected. May there be healing of all the ripple effects.
[Votive]

I've had my own struggles with depression, and one long-ago suicide attempt. (I'm very ok now, folks.) When you're down in that pit, especially if it's due to a chemical imbalance, you can only see darkness and pain--and no end to it.

JLG and I had a few conversations, here and there. We had some spiritual questing in common.

May Erin and the other Shipmates-in-Glory welcome you home, JLG.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17647 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Darn. Meant that for the AS thread...but I guess it works here, too.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17647 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408

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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
I'd find it easier to just go with the "sad at demonic possession" emotion and theodicy, which I do honestly feel and think. But in all honesty, I am bothered by the question of the role of moral agency. I do not know how to reconcile these for myself, let alone how to advise anyone else considering these things.

Perhaps the daemons lead us to the edge of the abyss - which must seem all-encompassing and irresistible at that distance - yet it ultimately remains our choice as to whether we continue forward into the terrible darkness or turn around to face the light.

I dunno... I've never been there so I could be talking shite.

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Mother Julian

Ship's librarian
# 11978

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Squibs said
quote:
Perhaps the daemons lead us to the edge of the abyss - which must seem all-encompassing and irresistible at that distance - yet it ultimately remains our choice as to whether we continue forward into the terrible darkness or turn around to face the light.

I dunno... I've never been there so I could be talking shite.

'fraid so, Squibs, that is undiluted shite.

May you never be there in that dark circle of hell with no light, no hope, no way out. And no further shite about the love of God reaching everywhere - even if true, it's of no use when the demons have you trapped in the pit of despair and you can't recognise anything apart from the bad stuff that is pulling you down.

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The corn was orient and immortal wheat which never should be reaped, nor was ever sown.

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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This is jlg within a month or so of her self inflicted death.

We are, indeed, interesting creatures.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Anything I could add to this has already been said better by Leaf.
No words.

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Shocked.

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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I keep copies of various posts and threads, and went looking in them for posts by JLG. Found some good—and even pertinent—things.

One of our best threads ever, IMHO, was "Calling God To Hell". . It was about bad stuff and where God fits into that. (AKA “theodicy”.) It started by Nunc Dimittis in Feb. 2003.

JLG posted:

There's a good reason that Buddhism posits a non-personal God, folks.

However, being merely human myself, one of my other mottos is "If you haven't ever yelled at God, you don't really know God."


It’s a great, unrestful thread. Erin, Kenwritez, and many others weighed in.


In May 2003, Dolphy started a Heaven thread called “Let the world stand still for a moment”. A descendant of the old “Sit down” thread, it was an imaginary comfort place where we could step out of the stress of our lives, and just relax. (I can’t find it in the archives; checked Limbo, Oblivion, and Heaven. It was thread 002355. I’ve got a text copy, if the H/As want one.)

The OP stated:

This is a place to put your feet up, take time out from the rat race of life, chill, relax...whatever you want to call it. Here you will find friends willing to give you a hug, chocolates, bacon butties, a glass of whatever is your tipple, or tuck you in under a nice warm duvet (all in a virtual way!). There may be a few favourite pets around (including a random goat!), and if you ask nicely, there are teddies available, the most famous of which is Bernie the Bear! You will find there are gardens to walk in, there is a stereo here for you pleasure, TV, a video and a newly purchased DVD player... feel free to use them all.

New to this 'house' is a games room, complete with pool table, fruit machine and skittles alley... the swimming pool and sauna are also ready to be used.

So, if you need a place to relax, sit down, put your feet up, take time out, whatever... a warm welcome to you all.



JLG posted:

quote:
Posted by jlg (# 98) on 26. May 2003, 00:26:

(jlg emerges from a mental fog and a nightmare scenario where she was in Hell with a bullseye painted on her and someone was throwing...water balloons?)

Huh? Where am I? Goldenkey? Sauna? White fluffy towels?

Really? I'm not dreaming?

Ah, this is wonderful! Thanks!



--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17647 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
One thing I will never believe again is that any of us is incapable of anything. And yes, we have choices and agency, but sometimes we don't see the critical choice coming until we're no longer able to see the alternative.

This fits better with my understanding of things than talk about demons. But how much moral agency does remain in the full grip of extreme mental illness? If you can't see clearly enough to choose - if you've maybe even lost your grip on the fact that there is a choice - are you really chooisng? Are you still a moral agent?

We all take wrong turnings, but the consequences - how badly lost we get - seem to depend on a whole host of other things not within our control. I don't even want to say, "there but for the grace of God...." because I don't believe in a God who would withold Grace from Jenn. I suppose that leaves me with There, but for fortune...

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
One thing I will never believe again is that any of us is incapable of anything.

So true, and so fucking terrifying. Because I know that includes me as well, and that all it takes is the right (or, more accurately, wrong) set of circumstances. May God preserve us all.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756

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So sad, so horrifying, so unbelievable.

Prayers for family and all involved. [Votive]

I don't think we ever know what we could be capable of given the unrest and unravelling of our minds.

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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

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quote:
One of our best threads ever, IMHO, was "Calling God To Hell". . It was about bad stuff and where God fits into that. (AKA “theodicy”.) It started by Nunc Dimittis in Feb. 2003.
Wow! I'd forgotten about that thread. That was quite a doozy...

And rereading it I am conscious of who we have lost who posted profound things on that thread, not least jlg and Erin.

May they both find rest after the fighting.

Posts: 9513 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143

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C.S. Lewis said something similar about not knowing what we are capable of - that we can never stand in judgement of another person, because we have no idea what we ourselves would have done, given the same circumstances, background, brain chemistry, etc. I always feel very aware of this - of how vulnerable we all can be, no matter how strong and mentally robust we may seem at any given moment.

I didn't know jlg personally, but I read her posts and knew of her as part of the community, and feel very sad about this - sad for her, sad for the other people involved, sad for those who loved her, sad that she is gone.

[Votive] for jlg and all who loved her

Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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I'm reminded by this of something I know - WE ARE ALL CAPABLE.

more in hell shortly.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

Posts: 17022 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged



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