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Source: (consider it) Thread: jlg's despair and death
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
This is where so often God's grace prevents more tragedies I think. Sadly not in the case of our dear shipmate. [Votive]

So, in this sad case, was god unaware, unwilling, or unable? Or, perhaps it is not the supernatural, but our own inner resources, friends, and communities that step in and prevent more tragedies.
Inner resources, friends and community didn't help somebody getting shot in the face in this case either, so it seems.

Is it that important that religion, as you see it, has failed in this instance that you can not notice a systemic failure, rather then pointing out one part of that system?

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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I can understand, can I can show you, how other resources prevent tragedies. I do not see religion, other than as a form of community, doing the same. The supernatural component doesn't seem to be a contributing par of this system.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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And, over here, marching to the beat of my own discussional drummer...

I'd been thinking about moral agency, because jlg had a lot of choices to make ( Should I pick up the gun? Should I point it at these people? Should I shoot? ) The fact that she kept hitting the "Yes" button, when any sane person would choose at least one "No", made me realize how disordered her thinking was and how many things were affecting her ability to be a moral agent.

I read a description once about how many things may be influencing the person you are meeting, including but not limited to: past trauma, family of origin issues, environmental impacts, political conditions, the state of their personal finances, sex lives, close relationships, working conditions, recent conversations, biological changes, addictions, mental illness, media input, community, the Holy Spirit and what they had for breakfast. [Smile] With these and probably many more potential variables, how on earth can one completely judge another person's ability to be a moral agent?

Even the term "moral agent" feels slightly embarrassing, on reflection. It reminds me of something you might see on a generations-old sociology textbook: "Man as Moral Agent", with an accompanying asexual line drawing of a human. Real life, of course, is much more complicated than the abstract "man as moral agent" idea.

Stealing an apple is wrong. Stealing an apple when you are starving in a concentration camp, and the apple might mean a few more hours of life for you but not for the person you took it from... how could one begin to judge what "wrong" is, or unpick the factors having an impact on one's ability to be a moral agent.

So all I've learned is that Circumstances Alter Cases. Yay me.

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Scot, I hear your pain in your posts.

Are you saying
There is no God- you are fools for believing empty comfort.
There is a God but God is powerless or malignant.
Stop turning a tragedy I am part of into a theological debate.

Irrespective of theology, this is a tragedy.

--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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It would be silly of me to post on a debate board if I wasn't looking for a debate, wouldn't it? ;-)

When I look at the world, and this tragedy, it appears that, if there is a god, he is detached or malevolent. Simpler to assume there is no god.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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I have stated my case, my theology, my attempt to understand earlier on this thread. I too struggle with many images of God. I guess my hope is that all the images are exactly that- a poor reflection of the reality. And still, I hurt.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I want to go back to the world where people who go to their exes houses with guns are sick, selfish monsters who having absolutely nothing in common with the rest of us. I don't want them to be people as honest, as understanding, as humble as jlg.

We don't know that she took the gun to the house; it may have been there already. I think it probably was.

IIRC her husband hunted, which means that he owned guns. She had lived in the house and knew where the guns were kept. I think she had a brainstorm while interacting with her ex and the other woman. She knew where the guns were and got one.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Theodicy: it doesn't work. Never has, never will. It always fails in the end, because it always backs itself into a corner and ends with a pathetic, "God's ways are not our ways." Scot is right: God must be unaware, unwilling, or unable. (Or absent, or non-existent, I'd like to add.) Any of those options is unacceptable in traditional theodicy, therefore traditional theodicy fails.

Traditionally sensible theodicies have never attempted to be a prophylactic against suffering, but an empowerment within suffering and within grief. That is why the gospel narratives portray Christ as refusing the legions of angels at the Passion, and why he doesn't say to the crucified thief-dude 'hop down and go home you silly bugger'.

The theodicy narrative will never satisfy all. But what it more or less says is that the deepest vortex of horror - and jen's is somewhere on that richter scale - is not the final word. Burundi and Rwanda, the Brownshirts in Hitler's nights, Nero shoving lions up the arses of the quivering Christians ... not the final word.

It's my job as a Christ-bearer to live that theodicy, and words are a nuisance. My words for example will only irritate some who want an always onmipotent God, or who fundamentally don't want that God. God chose impotence though, the impotence of the Cross, precisely because divine redeeming love is not about prophylactically protected lives but about raw, unprotected lives lived with, as PATDYS reminded us, a terminal disease. My life, your life, jen's life, jen's 'victims'' lives, all attrociously terminal. It's a shit, but it's a shit into which the first Easter breathed hope.

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Bronwyn:
This year...has been a time of great greif and soul searching a lot of questions of why me...

Bronwyn, I decided long ago that if I were not willing to ask "Why me?" when good things happened - and somehow I never have asked that; I've just cheerfully accepted them - then I cannot ask "Why me?" when bad things happen. I find it makes things more understandable, at least for me, at least for now. (YMMV)

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I'm not dead yet.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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Shit happens. It happens irrespective of the existence (or otherwise) of whatever god you do or don't believe in.

And its seems to me that it's our struggle to make something meaningful of the shit happening – to try to understand, to learn, to resolve that we will listen more carefully, or keep an eye out for someone else, or not leap to judgement, or think about the grieving, or change something we do, or seek to change our laws – I believe that in all of these things we show forth the divine spark within us as we attempt to recognise a truth, deal with it, perhaps even make something good come out of it.

We have to be with the truth of it (by which I mean the truth of the horror of it, not a 'what really happened' kind of truth which, as others have said, we may never know) and not take comfort in phoney platitudes; but we also have to not despair, because to despair is to assert that ugliness is the only truth that matters, and that's just another lie.

There are similarities here to what Zappa said - not the final word. And I agree with the importance of living it, or trying to. Even when you don't see eye to eye on theology (or theodicy) you can recognise someone living out a call to hope in the midst of despair.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Shit happens. It happens irrespective of the existence (or otherwise) of whatever god you do or don't believe in.

I am adding this to the quotes file.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
We don't know that she took the gun to the house; it may have been there already. I think it probably was.

IIRC her husband hunted, which means that he owned guns. She had lived in the house and knew where the guns were kept. I think she had a brainstorm while interacting with her ex and the other woman. She knew where the guns were and got one.

Moo

I think you're probably right, Moo. I read this in one of the newspaper reports:
quote:

Jim Doggett served on the School Board with Gaines for several years. He was especially surprised to hear about the shootings because he said Gaines was strongly opposed to guns.


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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315

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quote:
Originally posted by Bronwyn:

So many questions and so out of God' s plan. So many times it has been my god my god why hath thou forsaken me?

I use to believe God has a plan. It nearly incapacitated me. If I believed God had a plan then times like these and others I have had recently would have cause me to hate God.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
I can understand, can I can show you, how other resources prevent tragedies. I do not see religion, other than as a form of community, doing the same. The supernatural component doesn't seem to be a contributing par of this system.

You know I think I agree with you. I still believe in God but I think I also agree with you. For me God is personal. He is one I can yell at, complain to, be mad at, rejoice with, and celebrate with. I don't know that I believe in theology but I find I must believe in God. He doesn't give me much of choice.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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You don't need god. You need a stuffed animal.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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moron
Shipmate
# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Even the term "moral agent" feels slightly embarrassing, on reflection. It reminds me of something you might see on a generations-old sociology textbook: "Man as Moral Agent", with an accompanying asexual line drawing of a human. Real life, of course, is much more complicated than the abstract "man as moral agent" idea.

Is it?

Do we overintellectualize something as simple as 'you can choose, so do not choose wrongly'?

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Dal Segno

al Fine
# 14673

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
When I look at the world, and this tragedy, it appears that, if there is a god, he is detached or malevolent.

quote:
Originally posted by 205:
Do we overintellectualize something as simple as 'you can choose, so do not choose wrongly'?

If we have free will, then we are free to choose wrongly.

If God is to allow us to have free will, He must allow us to choose wrongly.

So yes, that will make Him seem detached.

If you want God to intervene in terrible things, where do you draw the line? Where on the spectrum of bad things should He intervene and where should He leave us be? If God wades in to stop the Holocaust, to stop the Rwandan genocide, to stop suicide, to stop child-beating, to stop gossip, to stop unkindness, to stop bad actions, to stop bad words, to stop bad thoughts, He stops free will. He makes you a puppet not a person.

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Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
He makes you a puppet not a person.

But a happy puppet. And right now, I'd take that.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794

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While reading this thread, I thought of a quote of Chesterton, but while looking for that, I found something that seemed to resonate with me even better regarding all of this. There is nothing that goes down well in all of this, there is just darkness and disturbance before the situation and the emotions coming out of it. I don't claim to be able to make anyone happy or even defend my own statements, I am grasping blindly for tools to handle this with. I am a long-time semi-lurker, but this struck me intensely too. I, also, do not know how to carry all of this or even what this is or means. However, I did find some sort of solace or coherency in these words Chesterton wrote in his Introduction to the Book of Job:
quote:
Job does not in any sense look at life in a gloomy way. If wishing to be happy and being quite ready to be happy constitute an optimist, Job is an optimist. He is a perplexed optimist; he is an exasperated optimist; he is an outraged and insulted optimist. He wishes the universe to justify itself, not because he wishes it to be caught out, but because he really wishes it to be justified. He demands an explanation from God, but he does not do it at all in the spirit in which Hampden might demand an explanation from Charles I. He does it in the spirit in which a wife might demand an explanation from her husband whom she really respected. He remonstrates with his Maker because he is proud of his Maker. He even speaks of the Almighty as his enemy, but he never doubts, at the back of his mind, that his enemy has some kind of a case which he does not understand.*
To me, this seems the difference between some of the believers and some of the non-believers. I know it makes a difference to me. I cannot stop believing God somehow has a case. I know my Redeemer lives and I cannot doubt it. God knows I am perplexed and exasperated before this, but I remain a believer for all that I am. I can do no other and all such stuff.

Sorry if I'm too blunt or too emotional. Above content should all have a "FWIW" tag. I wish to be happy and I wish that my faith would be worth something, but even in the deep night, when my words are not enough and come out tumbled and jumbled, I can't let those things go. I'm crushed and sorry.

------

*Chesterton died in 1936, more than 70 years ago, so hopefully this won't constitute a breaking of copyright procedures. I got it from here. Sorry if I am mistaken.

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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
If God is to allow us to have free will, He must allow us to choose wrongly.

So yes, that will make Him seem detached.

If you want God to intervene in terrible things, where do you draw the line?

None of us have ultimate free will, we're all constrained by something, whether it's circumstances, the physical world or other people's free will. The idea that free will is a kind of absolute and therefore you can't interfere with people's choices to do terrible things seems only to apply to God. We're quite happy to pass laws and enable enforcement to restrain free will amongst ourselves. Parents may struggle with exactly where the line between free will and restraint is but they still draw it every day, they don't throw up their hands and say it's impossible.

And God is supposedly bigger, better, kinder and cleverer than us as either parents or law-makers.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
He makes you a puppet not a person.

But a happy puppet. And right now, I'd take that.
I'm amazed - and pleased for you - that you can claim to be happy. That puts you in a very small minority.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Thank you for that, JFH. I know this is SoFs where we are free to express our doubts or outright disbelief but, I really appreciate the balance of an occasional profession of firm belief.

These last few days I've also come to appreciate, like never before, the presense of our own amazing pastors like Zappa, Pyxee, et al. Their congregations are so lucky.

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Flausa

Mad Woman
# 3466

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
He makes you a puppet not a person.

But a happy puppet. And right now, I'd take that.
I'm amazed - and pleased for you - that you can claim to be happy. That puts you in a very small minority.
Robert, I think MtM is saying that IF he was a puppet, at least he'd be happy. I would be surprised if he's saying he's happy right now.
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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Flausa, that makes more sense than my interpretation. Thank you.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
You don't need god. You need a stuffed animal.

I'd be ok with that. But stuffed animals do not commune with me. I tried but my stuff giraffe never communed with me no matter how hard I tried. God does.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
If you want God to intervene in terrible things, where do you draw the line? Where on the spectrum of bad things should He intervene and where should He leave us be? If God wades in to stop the Holocaust, to stop the Rwandan genocide, to stop suicide, to stop child-beating, to stop gossip, to stop unkindness, to stop bad actions, to stop bad words, to stop bad thoughts, He stops free will. He makes you a puppet not a person.

It doesn't matter where I want him to intervene. He doesn't intervene at all. A god who doesn't intervene is of no use, either practically or philosophically, and can simply be excised with Occam's razor.

--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Even the term "moral agent" feels slightly embarrassing, on reflection. It reminds me of something you might see on a generations-old sociology textbook: "Man as Moral Agent", with an accompanying asexual line drawing of a human. Real life, of course, is much more complicated than the abstract "man as moral agent" idea.

Is it?

Do we overintellectualize something as simple as 'you can choose, so do not choose wrongly'?

I don't think it's overintellectualization - just a recognition of reality.

Perhaps it is better stated: Moral agency is affected by multiple factors. For example, we recognize that one's moral agency may be impaired by alcohol or drugs. People behave differently when under the influence.

ISTM the perfect abstract moral agent is an independently wealthy, politically free and influential, environmentally rich, socially privileged, well educated, physically healthy, unaddicted, mentally healthy white European male. God grant that we may all be thus! [Roll Eyes] The farther we get from that abstract standard, the more complex our moral choices become. The closer you are to that standard, the more it requires imaginative effort to consider the moral choices of others. What if you were [insert potentially qualifying factors here]? Would your moral choices be rational, understandable, forgiveable in that situation?

The point it: There IS no line-drawing human! There is you, and me, in our flesh, in our complexity, in our times and places and conditions.

I did not drink jlg's particular cup of suffering. Neither did you. Even if we think we have enough similarities to compare ourselves as moral agents with her, there are important considerations left out. For example, I was not a female engineer in a time when there were few, breaking my nose against others in my profession. Pioneers in non-traditional occupations have it harder than their peers. ISTM that changes a person.

Incidentally, this complexity is why we have judges and not book-readers. Book-readers can look in the rule book and say: You did this, you get that, simples. However, we pay people to take into consideration the complexity of human situations.

Posts: 2764 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Originally posted by leaf
quote:
So all I've learned is that Circumstances Alter Cases.
I am somewhere between this and 205's POV.
We usually paint ourselves into the corner from which we see no escape. These circumstances do not usually spontaneously occur. But it is not simple and it is often a slow progression.
We make our choices, yes, but we make them from what is given us.
I've been lucky more than good, so no judgement here.
Actually, that is BS. There is judgement, I am trying to let that go.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Raptor Eye
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# 16649

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
It would be silly of me to post on a debate board if I wasn't looking for a debate, wouldn't it? ;-)

When I look at the world, and this tragedy, it appears that, if there is a god, he is detached or malevolent. Simpler to assume there is no god.

You haven't allowed for the possibility that God may exist and yet be neither detached nor malevolent.

Bad things happen in the world, and yet God's good. God doesn't cause them, and has promised to do away with them in God's own time. The delay doesn't mean that God is bad.

God intervenes by helping us to bring good out from the bad. The kindness and love demonstrated on threads such as this one are of God, as is hope.

Far from being detached, God connects with us intimately and helps to guide us if we listen. We don't always listen, or do what God wants, and yet God stays near us and continues to love us.

As others have said, our choices are influenced by many factors. Being new to the ship, I didn't know jlg but I'm touched by the outpouring of grief for her and like others I trust in God's eternal compassion and love.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
If God is to allow us to have free will, He must allow us to choose wrongly.

So yes, that will make Him seem detached.

If you want God to intervene in terrible things, where do you draw the line?

None of us have ultimate free will, we're all constrained by something, whether it's circumstances, the physical world or other people's free will. The idea that free will is a kind of absolute and therefore you can't interfere with people's choices to do terrible things seems only to apply to God. We're quite happy to pass laws and enable enforcement to restrain free will amongst ourselves. Parents may struggle with exactly where the line between free will and restraint is but they still draw it every day, they don't throw up their hands and say it's impossible.

And God is supposedly bigger, better, kinder and cleverer than us as either parents or law-makers.

I agree. But I don't see anything about that that changes Dal Segno's point, simply clarifies it a bit.

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Posts: 11131 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
It doesn't matter where I want him to intervene. He doesn't intervene at all....

I don't believe that's true, Scot. I have seen some miracles; I recently had one of my own. I believe that they all were due to the power of prayer.

The problem, from my perspective, is that we don't know or understand why prayers are answered in some cases and not in others.

And none of us can know what was going on in Jennifer's mind.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I'm for miracles, but they don't seem to happen very often. And they don't happen enough in situations where they would clearly be a good thing, like healing sick and dying children.

So that leaves questions.

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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
If God is to allow us to have free will, He must allow us to choose wrongly.

So yes, that will make Him seem detached.

If you want God to intervene in terrible things, where do you draw the line?

None of us have ultimate free will, we're all constrained by something, whether it's circumstances, the physical world or other people's free will. The idea that free will is a kind of absolute and therefore you can't interfere with people's choices to do terrible things seems only to apply to God. We're quite happy to pass laws and enable enforcement to restrain free will amongst ourselves. Parents may struggle with exactly where the line between free will and restraint is but they still draw it every day, they don't throw up their hands and say it's impossible.

And God is supposedly bigger, better, kinder and cleverer than us as either parents or law-makers.

I agree. But I don't see anything about that that changes Dal Segno's point, simply clarifies it a bit.
Well DS's point is that either God doesn't intervene or we no longer have free will because "where do you draw the line?".

My point is that we already don't have absolute free will and we all intervene in each other's lives already. So the choice between no intervention or no free will (at all) is a false one. There can be a balance between intervention and free will.

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Sleepwalker
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# 15343

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
It doesn't matter where I want him to intervene. He doesn't intervene at all.

How do you know this?
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095

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Despite all of the claims about miracles and the power of prayer, I have not seen any credible evidence that such claims are true. Positive thinking has a verifiable effect, but prayer does not. As GK noted, miracles don't occur in even the most extreme cases. In the absence of any evidence for divine intervention, I think I can safely assume that there is none.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
If you want God to intervene in terrible things, where do you draw the line? Where on the spectrum of bad things should He intervene and where should He leave us be? If God wades in to stop the Holocaust, to stop the Rwandan genocide, to stop suicide, to stop child-beating, to stop gossip, to stop unkindness, to stop bad actions, to stop bad words, to stop bad thoughts, He stops free will. He makes you a puppet not a person.

It doesn't matter where I want him to intervene. He doesn't intervene at all. A god who doesn't intervene is of no use, either practically or philosophically, and can simply be excised with Occam's razor.
How do you know he doesn't intervene? I agree he allows many evils, but I believe he prevents many also. I can't tell you why he permits some and prevents others.

Moo

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Scarlet

Mellon Collie
# 1738

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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
You don't need god. You need a stuffed animal.

I'd be ok with that. But stuffed animals do not commune with me. I tried but my stuff giraffe never communed with me no matter how hard I tried. God does.
In a way, I'm curious as to how god communicates with you, but I've probably heard all the supposed ways already. I used to believe god communicated with me. Then I realized I was hearing my own voice. And I sure don't need to be trying to heal my sick mind with my own sick mind!

Since I'm pretty over the edge, I'm gonna just turn this around and say:

I have a stuffed cat named Filby. God does not commune with me. I've tried but god, jesus, the holy spirit nor any of the angels or saints never communed with me no matter how hard I tried. Filby does.

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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer

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Bean Sidhe
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# 11823

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Oh Lord, I came to wish people a happy new year and found this thread on the home page. What heartbreak.

I won't add to what's been said, except that it's not just others we can never fully know, it's ourselves. It's likely jlg was as surprised and shocked by what she did as we are.

Peace and God's love be with her, the injured, all those hurt by this.

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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.


Danny DeVito

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
How do you know he doesn't intervene? I agree he allows many evils, but I believe he prevents many also.

Believe anything you want, but Scot asked for evidence. No one here has given any.
Posts: 24429 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubifex Maximus
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# 4874

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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
.. I used to believe god communicated with me. Then I realized I was hearing my own voice. And I sure don't need to be trying to heal my sick mind with my own sick mind!

[/QB]

Yes, that rings true with me too. I trust the silence more, now, than the "voice" I know that's really my voice. I don't know whether or not God exists, or whether God is loving or caring or not. I think I've come to the conclusion that Jesus went to the cross not to atone for us, but to show us how to sort out our own shit.

And yet, there does seem to be something that subtly offers consolation and sometimes opportunity. It isn't evidence for the existence of God, of course, but it does feel like more than the fruits of my own labours.

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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I haven't been around the ship much lately - it seems whenever I do that for a while I come back to news that we've lost someone.

This really sucks.

I'm bipolar myself, and I can tell you it can be really terrifying to be completely aware that you're losing control of yourself sometimes. For me, it was more a matter of losing the ability to stop negative thoughts. It felt like at some point I was watching myself as if watching a movie.

And I, too, understand better the desire to hurt oneself than to hurt others. I'm intentionally NOT going to look up news reports on this, though.

One thing that has always pissed me off as a person with mental illness is the way people who don't struggle with mental illness seem to think it's just about having feelings & impulses you could choose to control, but don't. The truth of the matter is, a mood disorder isn't just about emotions any more than mood is just about emotions: it's about your whole outlook, and affects your reasoning process, willpower, everything. The choices we all make are made with a biological organ inside our heads, and like all biological organs, it can get sick. When it does, it can malfunction. (This is why I never say someone "committed" suicide; I say they died from suicide.)

I have no idea how to reconcile that with the soul/spirit, but I'm not willing to make of the soul/spirit something magical that can will to do things apart from the brain, nor am I willing to spiritualize depression or other mental illness into demonic beings outside a person that "tempt" them to do something no one in their right mind would do.

Yes, we have moral agency, but that moral agency can also be compromised. That's why there's a such thing as an insanity defense in court. I like to think God doesn't hold us accountable for the malfunctioning of our internal organs, either. Especially since God made them and all...

This really sucks.

Since I'm at work (in a church), I'm going to go light a candle now, a real one along with this virtual one: [Votive] for Jen, her victims, and all who are suffering from this tragedy, and for all victims of suicide and mental illness.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

Posts: 7720 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258

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quote:
Ruth posted: Believe anything you want, but Scot asked for evidence. No one here has given any.
What would suffice? MRI? A doctor's note? Or do you need to stick your own finger in the wound?

Having been on the recieving end of a miracle myself I realized that we cannot understand why and to whom the are given. It isn't being deserving, as far as we understand the concept, it doesn't even amount to something greater we can grasp in our finitude (believe me I tried). I asked why, changed my whole life triying to be "worthy", tried to turn it into something postive for others, suffered guilt over it when someone I trult believed much worthier than I was not similarly spared and then felt guilt over the ingratitude. . In the end, I just cannot wrap my mind around it. I am grateful and have to leave it at that.

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Ego is not your amigo.

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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258

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And prayers for jlg. It perhaps speaks poorly of the environment of my upringing that these things happen more often than anyone can bear and as an art dunce I always appreciated and admired her engineering mind/sensibilites and dry humor. We all fall short and I truly believe we will all be forgiven. [Votive]

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Ego is not your amigo.

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
I can understand, can I can show you, how other resources prevent tragedies. I do not see religion, other than as a form of community, doing the same. The supernatural component doesn't seem to be a contributing par of this system.

However, we are talking about this one instance, though, are we not?

And, in this case, neither religion nor inner resources, friends, and communities that step in prevented a further tragedy.

I'm just not sure the whole "your religion failed" line of thinking here is valid. It sounds like you want to say religion failed while others things didn't. And, based on what has been discussed in the various threads, that is not true.

BTW, if we want to go down the route of checking out when/if religion or other things prevented a tragedy, we are going to be here a loooooong time.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Part of the problem is that in preventing a tragedy, you actually prevent it. So you cannot clearly say you prevented it because it didn't happen.

You can really only identify when you haven't prevented a tragedy. And how do you know that you haven't modified and reduced that tragedy?

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Theodicy: it doesn't work. Never has, never will. It always fails in the end, because it always backs itself into a corner and ends with a pathetic, "God's ways are not our ways." Scot is right: God must be unaware, unwilling, or unable. (Or absent, or non-existent, I'd like to add.) Any of those options is unacceptable in traditional theodicy, therefore traditional theodicy fails.

Traditionally sensible theodicies have never attempted to be a prophylactic against suffering, but an empowerment within suffering and within grief. That is why the gospel narratives portray Christ as refusing the legions of angels at the Passion, and why he doesn't say to the crucified thief-dude 'hop down and go home you silly bugger'.

The theodicy narrative will never satisfy all. But what it more or less says is that the deepest vortex of horror - and jen's is somewhere on that richter scale - is not the final word. Burundi and Rwanda, the Brownshirts in Hitler's nights, Nero shoving lions up the arses of the quivering Christians ... not the final word.

It's my job as a Christ-bearer to live that theodicy, and words are a nuisance. My words for example will only irritate some who want an always onmipotent God, or who fundamentally don't want that God. God chose impotence though, the impotence of the Cross, precisely because divine redeeming love is not about prophylactically protected lives but about raw, unprotected lives lived with, as PATDYS reminded us, a terminal disease. My life, your life, jen's life, jen's 'victims'' lives, all attrociously terminal. It's a shit, but it's a shit into which the first Easter breathed hope.

This is beautiful, Zappa. Thank you.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

Posts: 7720 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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Tried to edit & add this, but the edit window elapsed while I was composing it:

ETA: I also like what A. Roy Eckardt said in How to Tell God from the Devil - that theodicy is the devil's business, because only the devil can justify evil.

My late mentor (Alejandro García-Rivera) had been starting on a new approach which he called "anthropodicy," or justifying the human being in the face of evil (both committed and suffered by humans). Basically, for him, the question amounted to whether or not, at the end of the day, we can say, "It's good to be human." And despite all the negative feelings and opinions of humanity these related threads are bringing out, I suspect on balance we can all agree that it's good to be human, and good that humans exist.

Not entirely satisfying, but it's a start. It's also worth noting from the Christian perspective that God's opinion of our situation was that it's good to be human - so good, God became one and remains one for all eternity. No one else has chosen to be born. Whatever silence we hear from God, the loudest silence is from that speechless baby otherwise known as the Divine Logos, the Word made flesh.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Random thoughts raised by the tragedy --

Gene Roddenberry thought he'd invented the "Prime Directive" -- but he hijacked the idea from God. It's proven to be as flexible a rule for Him as it did for various Star Trek characters. [Razz]

I'm willing to keep rolling along on the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things as yet unseen. I'm willing to be conformed (hammered and blowtorched, wrenched and compacted, flattened and expanded and stretched and amputated) to the image of the Christ. To turn one's back on that seems foolish in the extreme, since one goes through it just from living in this fallen, material world, anyway. Seems like, since one will be slogging through the torturous race anyway, why not accept the reward at the finish line?

That's where the hope comes in, maybe.

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Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Ancient Mariner

Sip the ship
# 4

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Theodicy: it doesn't work. Never has, never will. It always fails in the end, because it always backs itself into a corner and ends with a pathetic, "God's ways are not our ways." Scot is right: God must be unaware, unwilling, or unable. (Or absent, or non-existent, I'd like to add.) Any of those options is unacceptable in traditional theodicy, therefore traditional theodicy fails.

Traditionally sensible theodicies have never attempted to be a prophylactic against suffering, but an empowerment within suffering and within grief. That is why the gospel narratives portray Christ as refusing the legions of angels at the Passion, and why he doesn't say to the crucified thief-dude 'hop down and go home you silly bugger'.

The theodicy narrative will never satisfy all. But what it more or less says is that the deepest vortex of horror - and jen's is somewhere on that richter scale - is not the final word. Burundi and Rwanda, the Brownshirts in Hitler's nights, Nero shoving lions up the arses of the quivering Christians ... not the final word.

It's my job as a Christ-bearer to live that theodicy, and words are a nuisance. My words for example will only irritate some who want an always onmipotent God, or who fundamentally don't want that God. God chose impotence though, the impotence of the Cross, precisely because divine redeeming love is not about prophylactically protected lives but about raw, unprotected lives lived with, as PATDYS reminded us, a terminal disease. My life, your life, jen's life, jen's 'victims'' lives, all attrociously terminal. It's a shit, but it's a shit into which the first Easter breathed hope.

Inspired.

[Votive]

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Ship of Fools' first novel, Rattles & Rosettes, is the tale of two football (soccer) fans: 16-year-old Tom in 1914 and Dan in 2010. More at www.rattlesandrosettes.com

Posts: 2582 | From: St Helens (near Liverpool) UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
It doesn't matter where I want him to intervene. He doesn't intervene at all.

The problem with this perspective is that you - and I - probably don't hear of the many occasions when he does intervene, because occasions where someone considers shooting up their family, but doesn't, don't get the same sort of coverage.

I believe that he intervenes, and what we see is often where he has not intervened - or not successfully - for whatever reason. That does not prove that he does not intervene elsewhere.

My hope and prayer is that I can be part of God intervention for somepeople, somewhere. If I can do my bit, I believe that I can leave the rest to God.

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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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