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Source: (consider it) Thread: jlg's despair and death
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
.... if god is soooo clever, (s)he should be able to think of a way to explain itself in a way even we can understand.

Jesus.
Fine; be cute. Put on your Jesus sockpuppet and explain the value of Jennifer feeling it necessary to blow her brains out.
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RooK

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# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Where IS your hope?

Almost completely stuck in the realm of science fiction.

quote:
If all you have is what you've got right here, right now -- how do you explain anything that happens?
Why should I feel a need to have an explanation for everything? Sometimes "I don't know" is perfectly appropriate.

quote:
it's hard to grasp how you deal with the bad AND the good of life. I want to live beyond my knowledge and my power, and the only way I can do that is with God.
The dealing is mostly done with sadness and happiness, as appropriate. I don't have ambitions to live beyond my knowledge or my power, but I do my damndest to see how far I can stretch and grow both.
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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
.... if god is soooo clever, (s)he should be able to think of a way to explain itself in a way even we can understand.

Jesus.
Fine; be cute. Put on your Jesus sockpuppet and explain the value of Jennifer feeling it necessary to blow her brains out.
Psychology explains people; Jesus explains God. Religion and science* are not alternative ways of explaining the world; they just work at different levels most of the time.

I think your response to Grits is admirable, but when it comes to religion, it seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it. You want to criticise religion if it doesn't provide a satisfactory answer to every human problem - but then you (rightly, IMHO) mock those religious people who do feel they have a neat little answer to every problem. There are no neat little answers in this life and maybe there isn't a next one. Even if there is, it doesn't mean the answers will be neat. G*d has got a lot of explaining to do, along with most of us.

*Not saying Psychology is entirely scientific.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The answer is: because God is a capricious cunt.

I wish you'd release your inner poet and write us some worship songs, Marvin
OK:

(to be sung in an upbeat tempo)

God healed me, but He didn't heal you
God healed me, but He didn't heal you
God healed me, but He didn't heal you
'cause He's a capricious cunt

We both prayed, but He didn't heed you
We both prayed, but He didn't heed you
We both prayed, but He didn't heed you
'cause He's a capricious cunt

He could have healed you, He just didn't feel like it
could have healed you, He just didn't feel like it
could have healed you, He just didn't feel like it
'cause He's a capricious cunt

Nothing stopped Him, He just couldn't be arsed
Nothing stopped Him, He just couldn't be arsed
Nothing stopped Him, He just couldn't be arsed
'cause He's a capricious cunt

So let's all pray, but it won't do much good
let's all pray, but it won't do much good
yes we all pray, but it don't do much good
'cause He's a capricious cunt


© Marvin the Martian and Ship of Fools Worship Resources Ltd. Dance actions and unnecessarily-complicated chord structure available on request. Any failure of scansion is entirely in the mind of the reader.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Nice. I can see a rich seam is being tapped here.

Another 299 and you can publish 'Songs and Hymns of Anger' which would be a very useful supplement to the Fluffiness volume 1.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Nice.

Its certainly much more true than all that "God is good and gives to everyone if they ask" bullshit we often sing.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
OK:

(to be sung in an upbeat tempo)




I can just about get it to fit to Give me oil in my lamp. Not sure what to do with the chorus though...

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I can just about get it to fit to Give me oil in my lamp.

It's to a tune that currently exists only in my head, but I may have to actually sit down with the guitar and get it onto paper at this rate...

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Loquacious beachcomber
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# 8783

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Try singing it to Bette Middler's The Rose, or What a Friend We Have In Jesus, Marvin.
It may not scan perfectly, but it is truly annoying to either tune.
Or wasn't annoying what you were going for?

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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
If all you have is what you've got right here, right now -- how do you explain anything that happens?

Why should I feel a need to have an explanation for everything? Sometimes "I don't know" is perfectly appropriate.
So isn't that OK for us, too? The way you feel about Jennifer (Why didn't her God stop it?) is pretty much the same way we feel, too. We don't know. Yet you do seem to "need" us to explain. I guess it's because believing in something seems to demand a full understanding of it, but as I said, what would be the point or need for faith if we understood it all? I think that's the biggest hurdle -- and the biggest satisfaction -- of faith: acknowledging that you can let go of all that human stuff in your brain and allow your spirit to believe and hope in something you cannot see.

Forgive the scripture, but I do like how The Message phrases Hebrews 11:1-3 -- "The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It's our handle on what we can't see. The act of faith is what distinguished our ancestors, set them above the crowd. By faith, we see the world called into existence by God's word, what we see created by what we don't see."

I don't think I can say it any better than that.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
We're promised a perfect world in the end, with no suffering and no more evil.

Why does it have to be "in the end" though? Why can't that just be the world? What does giving us all this fucking shit to live through first actually achieve?
The frustrated call for the world to be transformed by God into a paradise, or Heaven, is perhaps one made by people since the beginning of time.

Why can't that just be the world now? Any answer is guesswork, as far as God's concerned. If it's what we all want, and we aim for it together, might it do away with our fighting each other, and bring on change to the better?

What does it achieve, living through the suffering as well as the joy? I remember a comment made by someone who deliberately put himself into uncomfortable situations for lengths of time. When asked why he did it, he said it was worth it because it was so good when the discomfort stopped.

He was in control of his discomfort, however. It's perhaps more often the lack of control which brings on despair, and the loss of hope for change to the better.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The frustrated call for the world to be transformed by God into a paradise, or Heaven, is perhaps one made by people since the beginning of time.

Why can't that just be the world now? Any answer is guesswork, as far as God's concerned. If it's what we all want, and we aim for it together, might it do away with our fighting each other, and bring on change to the better?

Well sure, if there's no God (or no chance that He'll do anything to help) then all we can do is work towards that world ourselves. But if there is a God who wants to help, then why the fuck doesn't He?

This world could be a paradise tomorrow, if God wanted it to be - if He actually wanted us to be spared the pain and suffering. But clearly, He doesn't. So fuck Him.

quote:
What does it achieve, living through the suffering as well as the joy? I remember a comment made by someone who deliberately put himself into uncomfortable situations for lengths of time. When asked why he did it, he said it was worth it because it was so good when the discomfort stopped.
That is one of the stupidest things I have ever read or heard. Deliberately causing himself pain just so that he could enjoy the moment when it stops? The man was mad, and should have been sectioned for his own good.

quote:
It's perhaps more often the lack of control which brings on despair,
No, it's the pain and suffering.

quote:
and the loss of hope for change to the better.
Well there's certainly no hope with God. I mean, if He was going to do something about it He'd have done it by now, right? For anyone who still has some small amount of hope that God will one day act to save us, it's time to face the fact that He.Is.Never.Going.To.Help. We're on our own.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
If all you have is what you've got right here, right now -- how do you explain anything that happens?

Why should I feel a need to have an explanation for everything? Sometimes "I don't know" is perfectly appropriate.
So isn't that OK for us, too? The way you feel about Jennifer (Why didn't her God stop it?) is pretty much the same way we feel, too. We don't know. Yet you do seem to "need" us to explain.
If there's nothing there - no God - then it's obvious that nothing will step in to prevent tragedy. Shit just happens.

But if there is a supposedly-loving God, the question of why He doesn't step in to prevent tragedy is a legitimate one. With a loving God in charge, shit shouldn't just happen.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well sure, if there's no God (or no chance that He'll do anything to help) then all we can do is work towards that world ourselves. But if there is a God who wants to help, then why the fuck doesn't He?

This world could be a paradise tomorrow, if God wanted it to be - if He actually wanted us to be spared the pain and suffering. But clearly, He doesn't. So fuck Him.

God does help us as we strive for a better world, and wants us to do so. Some people are conscious of this and speak of their personal evidence of it from living day by day with God.

This world will be a paradise tomorrow, but not today. The fact that the world isn't yet perfect doesn't disprove or reduce the likelihood of the existence of God.

quote:
Well there's certainly no hope with God. I mean, if He was going to do something about it He'd have done it by now, right? For anyone who still has some small amount of hope that God will one day act to save us, it's time to face the fact that He.Is.Never.Going.To.Help. We're on our own.
I disagree. There's every hope with God. I think it makes all the difference to our take on life if we do allow ourselves to trust in God that ultimately all shall be well, while using all of our resources and energy to strive for the perfect world ourselves. We are never alone.

God showed us in the cross and resurrection how good can ultimately come from suffering.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
God does help us as we strive for a better world,

How?

quote:
and wants us to do so.
Why?

quote:
This world will be a paradise tomorrow, but not today. The fact that the world isn't yet perfect doesn't disprove or reduce the likelihood of the existence of God.
I never said it did. I did say it disproves the existence of a God who wants to spare us the pain and suffering.

quote:
I disagree. There's every hope with God. I think it makes all the difference to our take on life if we do allow ourselves to trust in God that ultimately all shall be well, while using all of our resources and energy to strive for the perfect world ourselves. We are never alone.
God hasn't made everything well yet, and He's had several million years to do so. He could have done so from the start, for that matter. What possible reason can you have for the hope that one day He'll change His mind and actually step in and do something? What do you think He's waiting for?

quote:
God showed us in the cross and resurrection how good can ultimately come from suffering.
Well, He stepped in to save one person from death. Who just happened to be His son. And He's showed us in the last two thousand years that that was very much a one-off.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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So what do you think of the theology that God is with us in our suffering, possibly even suffering alongside us or helping us through by being there (rather like fellow humans do)? Or is that bullshit, too? (As far as I can see, the jury's out on this one - I'm not convinced either way. But it is a popular theology for many.)

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
So what do you think of the theology that God is with us in our suffering, possibly even suffering alongside us or helping us through by being there (rather like fellow humans do)?

I fail to see what's so great about it. A friend offering support and companionship during times of suffering is a great thing, of course. But if that friend had, right there in their hand, a pill that could remove all of the suffering forever - but refused to give it to you no matter how much you begged them for it - how would you feel about their friendship?

Because, according to the theology you mention, that's what God does. He offers companionship and support, but not the one thing you actually want, even though it is very much within His power to give.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
This world will be a paradise tomorrow, but not today. The fact that the world isn't yet perfect doesn't disprove or reduce the likelihood of the existence of God.
I never said it did. I did say it disproves the existence of a God who wants to spare us the pain and suffering.
Not necessarily. It disproves one of the three "omnis", but it doesn't have to be that one. It could be that he isn't able to do anything about it. Or maybe he just doesn't know that life's suckier than a Dyson.

But it's the concept of heaven that really screws up all this twisty theology. Shit has to happen for various airy fairy, speculative or just unspecified reasons, but apparently the rules then change completely and everything is the happy, fluffy, perfect existence that only a minute ago was totally impossible, or deeply unsatisfying, or just an illusion.

You'd think 2,000 years was enough time to get the story straight. [Disappointed]

--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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This is where Rob Bell had it right, I think. Here on earth there is heaven and there is hell. Jennifers experience - and our reaction to it - is a part of hell, here on earth, as we experience it now. There are parts of life that are heaven too. Forget the crap about after we die.

Our calling as Christians is to point people to heaven, and help them avoid hell. Seems reasonable to me.

And the more we guide others to heaven, the closer we get ourselves. What is the role of God in all of this? TBH, at the moment, fuck knows.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
Marvin: a pill that could remove all of the suffering forever
You are just betraying your bottomless ignorance of the Biblical God and the Christian gospel.

There are several Biblical truths that you might consider on the off-chance your ignorance is genuine.

God created and loves mankind.

Man is a sinful self-centred being by nature which occurred when he succumbed to Satanic temptation.. Not God's fault

Satan has invaded man's nature and man has the authority from God to manage creation..Satan now rules through man. Satanic power has overwhelmed man's nature through man's choice.. Not God's fault.

God has provided a way man's nature and hence his destiny can be powerfully altered and freed from Satan's power..in Christ. But this requires humility. The cross must be applied to us for that power to flow. The fact that 98% of mankind are too arrogant to accept this confrontation of self life is again, not God's fault.

This is a terrible event and someone we knew is a casualty. Sometimes such things are a wake up call.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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OK: suppose we buy all that.

Who created Satan? Is Satan part of this God-created universe? Where did the evil originate that you seem to think define's Satan's nature, especially since God must have been Satan's creator too?

Are God and Satan equals, that God couldn't forestall or prevent Satan from despoiling humanity?

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Marvin-

Your lyrics more or less fit "We Are Climbing Jacob's Ladder".

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 18004 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

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# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
So isn't that OK for us, too?

Absolutely. My quibble is with those who have asserted explanations (of one form or another) that shy away from reality. Namely, that god either didn't care or wanted it to happen.

quote:
The way you feel about Jennifer (Why didn't her God stop it?) is pretty much the same way we feel, too.
Clarification: I don't feel that way. I feel sad, I feel a loss, and I feel an echo of appreciation for how bad Jen must have felt. I have no particular feelings about god, one way or another.

quote:
Yet you do seem to "need" us to explain.
Not exactly. I take issue with anyone asserting that god A) cared, AND B) didn't want Jen to blow her brains out after shooting other people. Because telling ourselves that is illogical, and a wretched attempt to make ourselves feel better about reality.
Posts: 15149 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Psychology explains people; Jesus explains God. Religion and science* are not alternative ways of explaining the world; they just work at different levels most of the time.

Well, I'll give you that they all try.

quote:
*Not saying Psychology is entirely scientific.
Heh. Science isn't entirely scientific much of the time.
Posts: 15149 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Psychology explains people; Jesus explains God. Religion and science* are not alternative ways of explaining the world; they just work at different levels most of the time.

Well, I'll give you that they all try.

quote:
*Not saying Psychology is entirely scientific.
Heh. Science isn't entirely scientific much of the time.

True, and thanks for the link.

I suppose the big question is whether there is an explanation. What the Blessed Clive called The Problem of Pain is only part of a much bigger problem of What's It All About? Maybe there is no Ultimate Meaning. I choose to have faith that there is, and that, in the end, it will prove to be Good or it might be that we have to make our own meaning and Make it Good. For me "God" is just a way of asserting that. For me, Jesus embodies that. I neither know nor care how he was conceived. It's difficult enough to keep faith without the added burden of being obliged to believe 10 impossible things before breakfast.

For those who want to take the view that there is no Ultimate Meaning - well, fine, as long as the meaninglessness doesn't torment you. It torments me. I would rather believe and be wrong (because what does it matter?) than be right and despair. It's a version of Pascal's wager, I suppose.

As for the solution posited by Jamat - all I can say (at the moment) is it doesn't work for me.

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8909 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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I’m sorry for all of you who knew and cared about jlg. I’m especially sorry for those who have been struggling to reconcile her terrible death with their faith in a loving and all-powerful God. The intellectual dissonance must salt the wound very horribly, and as an atheist, I guess this must be one of the heaviest costs of religious belief, and I honestly say so without an iota of smugness.

Surely, many people find comfort in their faith at times like these. Life is full of tragedy and loss, and for some people their belief in God offers consolation, even if it’s only in the hope of some distant triumph of good over these bad things we suffer. However, I do suspect that, for some believers, their faith in fact presents an even greater burden, since, in addition to their mortal grief, they also have to reconcile the painful contradictions of their beliefs. I am not being opportunistic or evangelical about this; I just wanted to throw it into the very good and honest discussion happening here.

As an atheist, I cannot hope for any ultimate goodness in the sad events of jlg’s terrible crimes and heart-rending death. It is purely and simply an awful, dreadful tragedy. I consider myself fortunate, however, because at least I do not have to sit here searching for a solution to the impossible challenge this sort of thing poses to my beliefs.

My thoughts are with those who are suffering in that way, and I send my best wishes for your somehow finding relief in your faith.

--------------------
این نیز بگذرد

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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I suppose the theology which fits best with the specific example under discussion (ie. jlg's death) is free will. In allowing humans to exercise free will, the possibility that someone will choose (for whatever unfathomable reason) to pick up a knife and injure close relatives or to pick up a gun and shoot themselves, is always there. We just need to get our heads around whether free will is a good gift or a bad gift, and whether God 'should' override it on occasion (in which case it is not true free will).

The question Marvin raises about suffering which is outside of free will, eg. physical suffering due to illness, is something quite different. We cannot will ourselves to be well from an illness in the same way as we can will ourselves not to hurt someone.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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catthefat
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# 8586

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But the "free will" of someone who's state of mind is seriously disturbed, for whatever reason, is surely seriously compromised.
Their mental illness overrules any true choice, in which case it's exactly the same as suffering due to illness.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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Jamat, even in your own terms your argument is a pile of crap. Here's why:

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Man is a sinful self-centred being by nature which occurred when he succumbed to Satanic temptation.. Not God's fault

Yes it is, because God created both that nature and Satan. He set us up to fail, knowing full well that we would.

quote:
Satan has invaded man's nature and man has the authority from God to manage creation..Satan now rules through man. Satanic power has overwhelmed man's nature through man's choice.. Not God's fault.
Yes it is, both because God gave us that authority in the first place (what a shit decision that was) and because God allows Satan to exert his power over us. He could just destroy Satan, or banish him to a place where he can never influence us. He could have given us natures that were able to resist Satan. He didn't, so it's ultimately His fault.

quote:
God has provided a way man's nature and hence his destiny can be powerfully altered and freed from Satan's power..in Christ. But this requires humility. The cross must be applied to us for that power to flow. The fact that 98% of mankind are too arrogant to accept this confrontation of self life is again, not God's fault.
Yes it is, because He attached such ridiculous and unachievable conditions to it. He could have made it easier than breathing, but quite deliberately chose to make it so hard that 98% of humanity would fail. With the bar set so impossibly high, how can it possibly be our fault that we can't reach it?

No, this is all God's fault. Ultimately the creator is responsible for the actions of his creation.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Daron
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# 16507

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
.... if god is soooo clever, (s)he should be able to think of a way to explain itself in a way even we can understand.

Jesus.
Fine; be cute. Put on your Jesus sockpuppet and explain the value of Jennifer feeling it necessary to blow her brains out.
Assuming the blind pitiless indifference of the Godless universe it is also difficult to explain why she shouldn't have been free to do whatever she wanted to herself and her family members.

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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We just need to get our heads around whether free will is a good gift or a bad gift, and whether God 'should' override it on occasion (in which case it is not true free will).

Bad gift, and yes He should.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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Seems to me that anything you try to say to make the crap better usually just turns you into a Job's comforter (I kind of think they were doing alright with helping him until they opened their mouths - sitting on the floor next to someone miserable isn't a half-bad idea). Life is frequently crap and words don't make it better. Whether anyone on this thread is being a Job's comforter I leave to your own consciences.

I keep thinking about this from IngoB (he was replying to one of the ship's atheists on why an intelligent person would keep on believing). I think he's pretty much right about the "bullshit we mumble to explain to ourselves the very weird fact" that we can't give up on faith. I think many of us know how ridiculous it looks to keep on going with a God who doesn't stop the crap from happening, but… but… but we can't do anything else. And so all the "reasons" we try to come up with to make it make sense are pretty much rationalisations for something we don't really know how to explain. It just makes better sense than anything else does.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We just need to get our heads around whether free will is a good gift or a bad gift, and whether God 'should' override it on occasion (in which case it is not true free will).

Bad gift, and yes He should.
And yet I get the impression that you are thoroughly enjoying saying exactly what you want to say, which would not be possible without free will.

Mind you, your posts would be a lot less enjoyable to read if you were merely a godly robot. God can't get his trigger finger to work properly to strike you down, because he's laughing too much.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
And yet I get the impression that you are thoroughly enjoying saying exactly what you want to say, which would not be possible without free will.

If it would get rid of all pain and suffering in the world, I'd sacrifice that little bit of enjoyment.

Without free will God could make us all happy and content all the time anyway, so I wouldn't much care.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Heck, a bottle of whiskey will do that. Why bother God?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Heck, a bottle of whiskey will do that. Why bother God?

Please don't tempt me back down that road.

But the effects of the whisky don't last beyond the evening, anyway - and then the morning is worse than when you started. But if God did it, the effects would be unending. No comedown, no hangover. No need to continually "top yourself up", for that matter. Just ongoing, endless, unchanging happiness and contentment.

Who wouldn't want that?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Anyone who enjoys the challenge of taking the hard road in life rather than the cushioned one - adventurers, explorers, entrepreneurs, to name a few. I guess you're not one of those, Marvin.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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You guess correctly. Give me the nice, easy life any time.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Oops! Consider the temptation removed, then. (hides it behind the sofa) A nice lobotomy, maybe?

Seriously, there has to be more to life than just being happy, happy, happy all the time. Though there are days I long for that.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Trin
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# 12100

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We just need to get our heads around whether free will is a good gift or a bad gift, and whether God 'should' override it on occasion (in which case it is not true free will).

Bad gift, and yes He should.
Dear Marvin.
Would you mind providing more information about the world God should have created?

I feel this is a necessary excercise because unless mankind can come up with a better system than God has, how do we know that the world we have isn't the best possible solution?

I'm trying to imagine a world where God intervenes every time someone is about to suffer and I can't think how it would work. I'm assuming that God will have to prevent all suffering, because otherwise people will still sing "God helped me and he didn't help you."

Does God prevent all death? What happens when someone falls off a cliff in your world? Does it differ from what happens if they jump?

Do bears still eat people sometimes? What about rabbits? Do bears eat rabbits? Shouldn't God stop a bear from eating my beloved pet rabbit? Are there any carnivores or parasites at all in your world?

I'm not trying to mock, I just want to know what the rules are in the perfect world because I can't imagine what limits you intend to set on what suffering is allowed and I put it to you that unless you eliminate all suffering, some people are still going to want to know why God allows such and such.

And if those people still complain, in what way are their complaints more or less legitimate than your complaints with the world God made?

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You guess correctly. Give me the nice, easy life any time.

Let me get this right: are you the same Marvin the Martian who plays cricket, which features a small, very hard ball travelling at 70 mph+ and rugby, which involves close contact with people a good deal bigger, stronger and nastier than the admittedly nippy and agile Marvin.

Easy life? And that's before the post-match socialising! If it wasn't for free will you'd have to sit in front of the TV and vegetate.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Dear Marvin.
Would you mind providing more information about the world God should have created?

Ask the church - they're the ones who know all about it. I think it's called heaven.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Dear Marvin.
Would you mind providing more information about the world God should have created?

Heaven, basically. Presumably all the other stuff you mention can be resolved without any problems there, so why not here?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Let me get this right: are you the same Marvin the Martian who plays cricket, which features a small, very hard ball travelling at 70 mph+ and rugby, which involves close contact with people a good deal bigger, stronger and nastier than the admittedly nippy and agile Marvin.

I'm retired from rugby now, but otherwise yes.

quote:
Easy life? And that's before the post-match socialising!
No, not easy in and of themselves. But they make this life easier to bear.

quote:
If it wasn't for free will you'd have to sit in front of the TV and vegetate.
If it wasn't for free will I wouldn't want to do them, and I wouldn't care about not doing them!

Sports (and TV, for that matter) are just some of the many things we humans have devised in order to make living in this shitty world more bearable and to make our existence a bit happier. If the world wasn't so shitty to start with we wouldn't need them - we'd be as happy as we could possibly be anyway.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Out of curiosity, I'd be interested in Christian thinking on the potential overlaps / conflicts between "self-interest" (something that I perceive Christianity viewing with suspicion) and this so-called "free will" an alleged God has allegedly gifted humans with -- something seen as a kind of mixed blessing.

It's been proposed on this thread that God / Jesus has no hands but ours, which means our personal, physical survival ought to be in god / Jesus' interests, so long as we've used our free will to do what God / Jesus advises: self-sacrifice for the benefit of others. Yet we're mortal, and "created" mortal; we can't even choose to "live for God" forever.

Huh?

And will Jamat, or perhaps another Defender of the Faith, kindly inform me about the creation of Satan, and his / her / its status vis-a-vis God?

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Seriously, there has to be more to life than just being happy, happy, happy all the time. Though there are days I long for that.

One cannot truly appreciate the happy, joyful times unless one has experienced some suffering along the way. I know which one I prefer, but I also know it's the suffering periods that bring change and make the happy times that much sweeter. You have to take the good with the bad - no one is exempt.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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The creation myth about Adam and Eve grapples with this very problem. Everything in the garden was lovely, but A and E still had to go and find the one thing which blew it all. And if the story isn't real, it would have had to be invented sooner or later - because isn't this true for every human being, and isn't it what gets played out in every household when children (even the very happy ones with 'perfect' parents living in a 'perfect' house) do when they grow up and want to start living their own lives, in their own way, independently?
I can't see your idealised world working, Marvin, because human beings are so bloody stubborn.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't see your idealised world working, Marvin, because human beings are so bloody stubborn.

There's two problems with that:

1) how does heaven work, then?

2) why did God make us so bloody stubborn?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Seriously, there has to be more to life than just being happy, happy, happy all the time. Though there are days I long for that.

One cannot truly appreciate the happy, joyful times unless one has experienced some suffering along the way. I know which one I prefer, but I also know it's the suffering periods that bring change and make the happy times that much sweeter. You have to take the good with the bad - no one is exempt.
This is an all-too-common refrain, that "we" (whoever that may be) cannot appreciate joy unless we also experience sorrow.

I'm sorry, but this is complete nonsense. A sibling, during our respective childhoods, once tricked me into taking a bite out of some unsweetened baking chocolate, with predictable results. This not only failed to improve my subsequent appreciation for chocolate candy, it substantially raised (at least for a while, until I learned to read) my subsequent suspicions regarding any brown-colored candy offered me by anyone.

Having a hellish week at work can actually diminish my enjoyment of time off the following week, as I enter that experience with less energy, more stress, and more nagging concerns about the welfare of certain clients while temporarily under another, less acclimated, manager's responsibility.

Having the flu for a few days does little to enhance my pleasure at feeling well once I recover. In fact, I'd much rather avoid the flu altogether (and thanks to flu shots, I generally do).

That's my experience, anyway. Am I odd-person out in this? Can others look honestly at their own, actual, daily experience, and make this bizarre (or so it seems to me) claim?

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
Am I odd-person out in this?

Nope.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29893 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged



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