|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Romans 1:27... Men were inflamed with lust for one another
|
Simon
Editor
# 1
|
Posted
Verse nominated by H Kiely
"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (Romans 1:27, in context).
H Kiely comments: It is without a doubt one of the biggest parts in the New Testament that has proved a source of strife, misery and self doubt and general unhappiness in Christianity as a whole, as well as the world beyond. I know people who have felt rejected by their faith just from it.
A professor of religion once told me that St Paul was mainly decrying adulterousness and unfaithfulness, rather than what we would now refer to as homosexuality, because back then to commit adultery with the same sex was the most easily available option. At least with Leviticus, we can say, "Well, look at how his other teachings no longer have reference, how Jesus rejected the emphasis on empty ritual over getting the job done."
It is, on the whole, what I consider to be one of the most spiritually upsetting verses in the Bible. I fully admit that my pocket New Testament, which I carry everywhere, no longer contains this page. I've had the book since I was 13.
How much of a problem is this verse? Click "Vote Now" to cast your vote!
[ 23. July 2009, 23:38: Message edited by: Simon ]
Poll information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 105 user(s) have voted.
You can't view the results of this poll without voting.
| |
--------------------
Eternal memory
Posts: 3787 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Gosh, I can't find it , but Joe Bob Briggs did a great breakdown of this verse in the Wittenburg Door. If I can dig it up, my vote would be to replace the current verse with that essay.
Basically, he proposes that the verse is less about the condemnation of one form of sexuality, and more about how the mindless pursuit of sex really reduces the quality of your life. He seemed to imply that once you got down to the Greek, the mirror ended up being pointed at you, no matter who you are.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
Besides that the entire first chapter of Romans cannot be understood until you get to Romans 2:1 (and I got that from another website somewhere; it made sense to me).
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
kenosis
Shipmate
# 10433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Besides that the entire first chapter of Romans cannot be understood until you get to Romans 2:1 (and I got that from another website somewhere; it made sense to me).
James Alison has written this fantastic article on Romans 1 from a gay Catholic perspective. He makes that point very well I think.
[ 28. July 2009, 14:45: Message edited by: Tom S ]
Posts: 65 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom S:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Besides that the entire first chapter of Romans cannot be understood until you get to Romans 2:1 (and I got that from another website somewhere; it made sense to me).
James Alison has written this fantastic article on Romans 1 from a gay Catholic perspective. He makes that point very well I think.
I think that's the same article i was talking about.
It's a small web after all...
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
|
Posted
I think the best analysis is here, in that the structure of the passage is analyzed and put in its cultural context.
Paul, the Goddess Religions and Homosexuality
I think Paul was taking a swipe at the Attis/Cybele cult, which was one of Rome's most important religions. It has some interesting parallels with suburban evangelicalism today in that it a mild version of the cult was embraced by the intelligencia and civic authorities, but it also had some fringe elements (like self castration and cross dressing) that the most devoted followers practised.
--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
|
Posted
It is possible, though tricky, to read this (and other verses on the subject) as meaning something more or other than a flat-out condemnation of homosexuality. If any such interpretation is right, I wish Paul had seen fit to spell it out rather more clearly than he did, because the potential for harm if one gets it wrong is immense.
On the other hand, maybe Paul did mean to condemn homosexuality. In which case, I wish he'd said what the objection to it is. It's not in the least obvious to my conscience that there's a moral difference between homosexual and heterosexual sex - either can be used lovingly, or not, depending on circumstances and intent. I don't like the idea that if homosexuality is immoral, I should just have to accept that as a fact, without explanation, when it isn't going to be me that pays the price of the prohibition, but some other group of people.
The 'do not judge' bit in Romans 2 alleviates my personal dilemma - I'm free to say that even if homosexuality is wrong, I have absolutely no standing to condemn anyone else. But it has not, historically, softened the effect of this verse much.
I'd like to compromise - let's cut this verse out of the Bibles of every single heterosexual reader, but leave it in for the gays and bisexuals. They can get on with the job of working out what exactly it means, and why, and how to apply it, because that really is none of the rest of our business.
--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
|
Posted
Except for the addition of same-sex behavior, Rom. 1 really mirrors the more lengthy characterization of idolaters in Wisdom (somewhere around ch. 13-15 IIRC). So my take is that Paul is updating a stock caricature of idolaters used by faithful Jews & Christians to "other," ridicule, condemn, and most importantly, distance & distinguish themselves from pagans. Paul gets his readers agreeing how terrible those godless heathens are, only to surprise them with his "you're no different" in ch. 2.
In that reading, what is said in ch. 1 is less a teaching to be applied than a co-opting of prejudices to be flung in the face of those who consider themselves more righteous than others. It could say anything, really, so long as the audience believed it was true of the "others" and not of themselves.
--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
|
Posted
ELiab wrote:
quote:
The 'do not judge' bit in Romans 2 alleviates my personal dilemma - I'm free to say that even if homosexuality is wrong, I have absolutely no standing to condemn anyone else. But it has not, historically, softened the effect of this verse much.
I'd like to compromise - let's cut this verse out of the Bibles of every single heterosexual reader, but leave it in for the gays and bisexuals. They can get on with the job of working out what exactly it means, and why, and how to apply it, because that really is none of the rest of our business.
I kind of like this... and that's why I'm writing to say to you, Eliab, what will you do if your son ever brings a boyfriend home? How will you react, how will you feel?
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Check this out as an explanation of Romans 1:
http://www.courage.org.uk/articles/Romans1.shtml
That's very helpful for me. Thank you.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
les@BALM
The Ship's Visionary
# 11237
|
Posted
I thought the verse was a reference to male prostitution and the unequal power relationship between client and prostitute.
--------------------
il sole d'Italia mi è rimasto nel cure
Italia campioni del mondo ****
Tiggs the cat.
Posts: 1863 | From: Canada, eh! | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
|
Posted
Any verse can be "spun" to mean the opposite of what it says.
I don't think that any Jew or Jewish Christian in Paul's audience had to ponder this verse for more than a second to understand what Paul meant by it.
It's hardly one of the "worst verses" in the Bible. It's entirely consistent with the total Biblical worldview of personhood, family, and reproduction.
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Eliab, what will you do if your son ever brings a boyfriend home? How will you react, how will you feel?
Sorry - I've only just seen this question. Hope you're still reading this board...
Well, I'd probably be a little disappointed. Because being a dad is absolutely the best, most exciting, most fulfilling thing that has happened to me in my whole life, and if my son were to be gay, that must at least reduce the prospect of him having that experience. And I'd like grandchildren, and he represents a full 50% of my hopes of having them.
Assuming that he is at this stage a professed Christian, I would hope that he has resolved the moral issue of whether a Christian can rightly be in a gay relationship to at least the satisfaction of his own conscience (if he isn't a Christian at this point, that wouldn't be a problem). I would hope he would have the sense, discipline and romantic feeling to keep sex for marriage (or civil partnership) with someone he loves. I would (whether he were a Christian or not) hope and expect that he treat his boyfriend(s) with honour and kindness. And I would, very likely, thoroughly disapprove of his partner as clearly not being good enough for my son (but be won over to the idea eventually, if he turned out to be a decent sort).
I'd act like a dad, I suppose. Possibly a good one, possibly not. I'd be pretty much the same if it were a girlfriend.
I wouldn't be bothered by my son forming a different moral judgement to me about homosexuality (or anything else - I'm a lawyer after all, I'm comfortable with disagreements) and I don't see it as my role to pre-decide his moral choices, but to give him firm basic values and a strong conscience with which to form his own opinions.
--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
|
Posted
I think what we must keep in mind, that the primary purpose of Paul's letter to the Romans is to make known to them his brand of Christianity as he intends to visit them. He seem to be ticking off historical human affronts to God back to Creation. But we remember this Paul's letter not God's.
Posts: 47 | From: Winston Salem NC | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hamp:
But we remember this Paul's letter not God's.
Than this must apply to every other writing in the Bible. Including those people 'like.'
--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Hamp:
But we remember this Paul's letter not God's.
Than this must apply to every other writing in the Bible. Including those people 'like.'
We don't often agree, k-mann, but we do here. Either the Bible is God's word, or it isn't. An objective way to split it into parts that are and parts that aren't has yet to be demonstrated.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
|
Posted
Everyone please, I am not a scholar, expert or anything of the sort. Most of what I know about the Bible comes from taking these courses:
The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers
From Jesus to Constantine
Historical Jesus
Lost Christianities
New Testament
The Making of the New Testament Canon
Apostle Paul
Jesus and the Gospels
Story of the Bible
Exploring the Roots of Religion
Early Christianity
History of Christian Theology
Philosophy of Religion
Great Figures of the New Testament
Old Testament
Natural Law and Human Nature
The Catholic Church: A History
Popes and the Papacy
Book of Genesis
Skeptics and Believers: Religious Debate in the Western Intellectual Tradition
Luther: Gospel, Law, and Reformation
Augustine: Philosopher and Saint
Late Antiquity: Crisis and Transformation
Great World Religions
Emperors of Rome
Religion in the Ancient Mediterranean World.
Are the professors who give these courses scholars, authorities, experts? In my opinion you have to take the course and decide for your self. The courses are available to all. What I do is pick out of the courses what I think are religious sticky points and post them with the hope that someone out there will have a source that throws a different light on the point.
Hamp
Posts: 47 | From: Winston Salem NC | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
|
Posted
Please, there something that puzzles me. When I read John's account of Jesus' trial and crucifiction carefully, he has it to occur on a different day than Mark, Mathew and Luke. Am I reading it wrong? John, the day before the Passover is eaten so the Chief Priest cannot enter Pilate's headquarters lest he be defiled and could not eat the Passover that evening, Mark, Mathew, Luke the day after the Passover meal the Chief Priest accuses Jesus in front of Pilate in his headquarters.Witch account did the Holy Spirit intend to be correct, John's or the others?
Hamp
Posts: 47 | From: Winston Salem NC | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I think you might have meant to start a new thread, since this seems to be a wholly different topic. But for what it's worth, the N.T. makes it clear that Pilate came out to them, out of his house/office/whatsit, so they would not be rendered unclean. On the time issue, you do know that there were two systems of reckoning in use, right? One began the day at midnight as we do, and the other at sunset. Remembering that can sort out any number of confusions.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
|
Posted
LC,
The thread is when people speak in the Bible the reader has to decide if the HS is using them at that moment or not. Paul or HS? The writer of John or the writer of Mark-Mathew-Luke. Pliate did come out to talk or they went in?
P.S. Try your time thing on Ehrman. I would like to be a mouse in the corner to hear that one. Keep up the good work!
Hamp
Posts: 47 | From: Winston Salem NC | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
[HOSTING] quote:
Originally posted by Hamp:
The thread is when people speak in the Bible the reader has to decide if the HS is using them at that moment or not.
No, this thread is not. The issue of inerrancy/ Biblical inspiration can be discussed in Dead Horses.
This thread is designated for people to offer their opinions as to whether or not the verse highlighted in the OP is useful. If you do not approve of such a discussion, take it up in the Styx.
In the meantime, I suggest you review the heading at the top of this board -- which explains this project.
[END HOSTING]
[ 22. January 2010, 03:31: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tallmaninthecnr
Shipmate
# 15429
|
Posted
So my very first post finds me on this thread which kind of surprises me, but I have to say pleasantly so as it justifies my impressions that this is a site that deals with the things Jesus dealt with .... real people and real lives.
Posts: 197 | From: Auckland, NZ | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
