|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Deuteronomy 21:18-21... A stubborn and rebellious son
|
Simon
Editor
# 1
|
Posted
Verse nominated by basso
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother... Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21, in context)
basso comments: This is the prescribed fate of the wastrel son. I spent a few unproductive years in my early life, and I clearly wouldn't have survived if this were the law of the land.
Orlando comments: Seems a bit extreme...
How much of a problem is this verse? Click "Vote Now" to cast your vote!
[ 03. September 2009, 19:29: Message edited by: Simon ]
Poll information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 25 user(s) have voted.
You can't view the results of this poll without voting.
| |
--------------------
Eternal memory
Posts: 3787 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
Can't we just get rid of the whole book of Deuteronomy? All it is is a bunch of bullshit rules that no-one follows anyway...
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
|
Posted
I think it's very interesting that the sins a society makes prominent and punishes heavily varies a lot. For example, today one of the big sins that are made a lot of and punished is paedophilia, which was fairly normal in other cultures in history (see Plato's Republic on it, for example).
In Deuteronomy, being insolent and persistently disobedient to parents seems to be seen with something of the horror we reserve for paedophiles and the like. That tells us something very interesting about the culture, and about the value placed on family cohesion and so on.
And yes, the Bible comes down heavily on paedophiles too - I'm simply using it as an example of a crime which we view with horror and outrage but which the Ancient Greeks didn't. Moses seems to have viewed insolence to parents with horror and outrage. By and large, we don't.
--------------------
blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Such a son was upsetting the social order, not just his folks--and I'm guessing, but that could be particularly dangerous for semi-nomadic people without police, jails, etc. etc. etc. I mean, they can't throw him in the hoosegow--there isn't one.
His actions are disturbing everyone to an alarming degree and no one, not even his parents, can get a grip on him. (and in that culture, if your PARENTS can't control you, you're pretty well unreachable.) From the sound of it, we're not talking about a mouthy teenager, or even a single episode or two of really bad behavior by an adult. We're talking about a thug and habitual drunkard, the kind of person who'd be running a gang and hospitalizing his girlfriend nowadays. At least that's how it reads to me, esp. given the context.
What to do with such a person? Since you can't jail him and you can't reform him, there's really only one way to put a permanent end to the damage he's doing. Yep, you know how. And this seems to be the same dynamic that goes on in a lot of semi-settled cultures, where most crimes are handled through social sanctions, and physical confinement is not feasible. After it gets beyond a certain point, you're looking at execution.
And given the fact that his own parents accuse him, and the crimes are habitual and public, AND the magistrates are involved and could stop it if they chose, I think it's pretty unlikely that this sentence would get invoked very often, and virtually never without plenty of cause.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
We have to keep in mind that as much as the Holiness Code seems harsh in its assigning of the death penalty for crimes, that Jewish tradition makes it very, very difficult for the death sentence to be carried out. From what I can remember, the requirement for the death penalty is that two independent witnesses must verify that they saw the crime take place. This isn't "hang-em high" Texas.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
We have to keep in mind that as much as the Holiness Code seems harsh in its assigning of the death penalty for crimes, that Jewish tradition makes it very, very difficult for the death sentence to be carried out. From what I can remember, the requirement for the death penalty is that two independent witnesses must verify that they saw the crime take place. This isn't "hang-em high" Texas.
And stoning, one would think, would require the implicit consent of the entire community.
And again, with the whole Torah, one has to wonder whether this legal project was ever really carried out. Do we have any records of this law ever being socially enforced and how?
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
|
Posted
The more extreme the advice, somehow, the less likely it seems to be carried out, though stoning is used even today in other cultures and for other "crimes".
It strikes me as being a parable for the unreachable soul, which puts itself beyond the spiritual pale, and suffers ostracisation for as long as this is the case.
--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
DagonSlaveII
Shipmate
# 15162
|
Posted
The law was set up to make sure people understood they couldn't get it all right, and to have something that could be fulfilled.
But then, disobedience/lack of honor towards your parents is covered several times in the NT, too, as a sin. It's not set up to show your own age as a factor in that situation, either...
--------------------
Thanks for all the prayers for my not-yet-family. Please continue to pray for my future Brother-in-law's mum, she is still in the hospital, although doing better.
Posts: 138 | From: Houma | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
|
Posted
Whether or not one likes this verse depends on whether or not one has kids.
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
