homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Dead Horses   » Homosexuality and Christianity (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  ...  92  93  94 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
GreenLeaf
Apprentice
# 1719

 - Posted      Profile for GreenLeaf         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This quote comes from the sex before marriage thread, but in replying, it seemed appropriate to move this discussion over to
a new thread or risk bringing things entirely off topic...


quote:
Originally posted by Elijah on Horeb:

We have seen therefore arrogance, bigotry and lack of love at both ends ofthe spectrum, and many of us are caught in the middle, wanting to accept homosexuals as Christ would have accepted them ...But we are still very aware that the whole tenor of both OT and NT teaching ... we must also bear in mind that neither do self-righteous judgmentalism and bigotry have any place in God's scheme.

I have a Christian friend who came out of the closet over the last few years. Those Christians around him have struggled with this issue.

Most churches I have seen seem to lean either towards the outright condemnation of the act, which then chases homosexuals out the door, or to outright acceptance of the lifestyle, which seems to go against Bible teaching.

The only way I have come to terms with this thus far is that I love my gay friend first, and in that his sexual preference is irrelevant. I can support him in his struggles and when others treat him unlovingly.

BUT, where does he fit into Christ's church? Either he hides who he is and lives a closet life while in church or he just does not go to church. Should homosexuality and Christianity be that mutually exclusive?
What hope can I offer my friend that Christ loves him when Christians are so afraid of his even truly knowing him?

[ 24. October 2003, 01:18: Message edited by: Erin ]

--------------------
**********************************
Jer. 17:7,8

Posts: 5 | From: Calgary, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fiddleback
unregistered


 - Posted            Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This again?! Perhaps we should just have an entire board dedicated to the subject.
IP: Logged
babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

 - Posted      Profile for babybear   Email babybear   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As Fiddleback so charming said, we have had this discussion many times in the past. But as we are continually attracting new members, there will almost certainly be a desire to talk about this subject.

I used to take a very hard-line approach and say that homosexual acts were sinful, and that homosexual feelings were 'confused'. But after having listened in to a number of these debates I am firmly undecided!

What I know now is that Jesus died for all, not just the people that we like.

bb


Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bing
Shipmate
# 1316

 - Posted      Profile for Bing     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I had a friend who 'came out' as a lesbian. She knew of my faith (and as she had been raised a Catholic and was worried about her eternal state) asked me what God would think (as if I'd know that) I said that I reckoned that on the scale of horrors that have been, and are, perpetrated in this world, how she got her orgasms hardly made the seismic calibrator wobble.



--------------------
I once was bald.


Posts: 120 | From: Hull | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
blackbird
Shipmate
# 1387

 - Posted      Profile for blackbird     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
good one, bing...and then there's always the troublesome thought of how many of the heterosexuals get theirs...not usually dragged out into the gory light of day (thank God...except in Bill Clinton's case or on the sex before marriage thread.)

how about condemning the real atrocities like marital rape or pedophilia, not, by the way, a homosexual problem as is commonly assumed, as any daughter who has been molested by a heterosexual relative will attest to.

like anything else, there's no easy way to categorize...you have to take each person individually, and hope they extend the same courtesy to you.

i think the issue is mostly a smokescreen...it's the finer details of interpersonal relationships that i imagine God is more concerned with...how much love did i offer? how much compassion did i extend?


Posts: 1236 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

 - Posted      Profile for 3M Matt   Email 3M Matt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
BUT, where does he fit into Christ's church? Either he hides who he is and lives a closet life while in church or he just does not go to church.

This is the bit I never understand. I am heterosexual, but I don't consider it "Who I am". I don't feel any inclination to "come out" and tell everyone I'm heterosexual The thing is be the whole person that you are and don't fixate on that one part of you which is your sexuality.

I do believe homosexual activity is sinful, but I see a hundred other things that I do everyday as sinful too it's no more or less sinful than anything else and no less forgivable by Gods grace.

There is simply no point in shouting about homosexuality being sinful, as if we scare homosexuals away from the church then essentially it is US who have consigned them to hell.

In essence we should pardon the crime, as God does, we should forgive as Christ forgave, but surely the point is Christ forgave peoples sins? Not that he told them they hadn't actually sinned at all in the first place?

--------------------
3M Matt.


Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

 - Posted      Profile for babybear   Email babybear   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
The thing is be the whole person that you are and don't fixate on that one part of you which is your sexuality.

That is fine when things are going great. But when things are less than great then it can become the thing that defines you. The same is true for disabilities, skin colour etc.

Saying "don't fixate on one part of your life" just does not help! If that is the area that is causing grief then it needs to be addresssed. People need to find a way of living with themselves, otherwise it can cause massive problems for themselves and others.

bb

P.S. Matt, are you prepared to talk about anything other than sex and sexuality?


Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

 - Posted      Profile for 3M Matt   Email 3M Matt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually, yeah, I am. You will find I've posted on boards about music, and my own self named thread in Hell is all about lizards. So there

I'll be addressing the predestination thread at length at some point (You have been warned)

--------------------
3M Matt.


Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Corpus cani

Ship's Anachronism
# 1663

 - Posted      Profile for Corpus cani     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
I don't feel any inclination to "come out" and tell everyone

Maybe you're married(or will be one day) - strikes me as a pretty blatant way of telling people what one is. (Although, of course, not all married people are straight: it's a good cover!)

I have no desire to tell people what I am either (and, for what it's worth, I'm not sure I know!) but I do know that, whatever I am, and whatever sin it involves, God will be forgiving: good job, too. There are plenty of sinful married folk out there.

--------------------
Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.


Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Corpus cani

Ship's Anachronism
# 1663

 - Posted      Profile for Corpus cani     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, hell! I must stop this double post lark - I just keep thinking of new things afterI've posted. Sorry.

I was just reminded of a friend - a serious and capable theologian - who argued that God must have been gay, since no straight man could have thrown the sort of queeny fits evident throughout the Old Testament! All that smiting stuff is just too queeny for words, he insists!

--------------------
Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.


Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
rewboss
Shipmate
# 566

 - Posted      Profile for rewboss   Author's homepage   Email rewboss   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have a friend who, for a long time, thought that she was a really good Christian because she didn't have the slightest desire to have sex. She even had a boyfriend and never had any carnal thoughts about him at all. She decided that being a Christian was the easiest thing in the world.

Until she discovered the reason why she wasn't interested in men.

Well, she had been a hard-line anti-homosexual sort of Christian so this really devastated her. She tried hard not to be a lesbian, but that didn't work. So she tried hard not to be a Christian, and that didn't work either.

Eventually she gave up, and told God to sort it out. Which he did.

She is now a Christian and a lesbian. And she feels that God has accepted her as a Christian lesbian.

--------------------
The latest from the world of rewboss


Posts: 1334 | From: Lower Franconia, Germany | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't think many homosexuals or lesbians are that way through choice. Many of them struggle against it for years before having the courage to "come out". As a young man, I used to be totally intolerant of homosexual behaviour, but I have learned over the years that it is an incontrollable proclivity as was for example St. Augustine's hypersexuality. Although hterosexual, Augustine's sexuality wreaked havoc with his spiritual life, as did my own as a young man for the same reason.

As homosexuality is so obviously against the teachings of the Bible, it is impossible to expect the church to condone it. That doesn't mean that on a pastoral level they shouldn't be accepted. "Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone."

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul


Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I thought I'd inject a little public service announcement into the discussion. Here, for the facilitation of discussion, is a handy cut-out-n-keep guide to the various standard attitudes towards this Question. Now there is no need to spend a page saying nothing new to specify your position, you can simply say for example "I'm a number 1" or "I think 2 and 4". Although the crusaders amongst you will be disappointed at this curtailment of an opportunity to spout, it will make it easy to spot any new and original points and arguments. So here they are:

1) Fags are intrinsically evil and are all paedophiles anyway [I am a bigot]

2) Homosexuality is inconsistent with six passages in scripture [I am the Lambeth Conference]

3) Homosexuality is not part of God's ordained plan for loving relationships, which require the complementarity of male and female [I am a natural law nut]

4) Homosexuals in themselves are sinful [I am judgemental]

5) Homosexual feelings/people are not sinful, but homosexual acts are [I am a dualist]

6) Gays should not be ordained [I have no idea how many already are]

7) I think 2) really, but it isn't that big a deal [some of my best friends are gay]

8) It's all a gray area [I am David Hope]

9) The evidence for homosexuality being inconsistent with scripture is questionable [I have actually looked at context]

10) The argument for homosexuality being inconsistent with scripture is incorrect [I have a gloss and I know how to use it]

11) Male-female complementarity is not the only complementarity for relationships [I think natural law arguments are idiotic anyway]

12) Homosexuals are made that way [I have a clue]

13) Homosexuality is a choice [I've never talked to a gay person]

14) Homosexual people and homosexuality are as good or bad as hets and hettyness, and homosexuality as well as hettyness is to be celebrated as a gift from God [I am incarnationalist, hurrah]

15) Lets go shag whoever we want [I am a rebellious teenager]

===

On a slightly more serious note, please remember that you are talking about people and intimate parts of who they are. If you love someone, try and think about how you would feel if someone told you that your feelings for them were sinful or the result of a handicap, and were not proper love. This precious bond that you share with another person is being declared at best second-class. Be aware of this in your arguments; be sensitive to others' feelings.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

 - Posted      Profile for 3M Matt   Email 3M Matt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Question:

Why is 4 judgemental?

If I add to it the statement "just the same as heterosexual people are sinful"?

--------------------
3M Matt.


Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
rewboss
Shipmate
# 566

 - Posted      Profile for rewboss   Author's homepage   Email rewboss   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
16. Homosexuality is a massive red herring and society in general is obsessed with sex. [I am rewboss]

--------------------
The latest from the world of rewboss

Posts: 1334 | From: Lower Franconia, Germany | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40

 - Posted      Profile for Stephen   Email Stephen   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
17.Another thread on sexuality.Arrrrrrgh.....[I am Stephen]

--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

Posts: 3940 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oops, forgot one...

18) The failure of the Church fully to engage with questions of homosexuality is really the failure the engage with issues of sexuality fullstop. Gays make useful scapegoats. [I've seen how uncomfortable people get debating this stuff].

FWIW, I'm 10, 11, 12, 14, 17 and 18.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
HoosierNan
Shipmate
# 91

 - Posted      Profile for HoosierNan   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Will one of you please explain "het" and "hettyness"?
Posts: 795 | From: Indiana, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nancy,
I take these to be short-hand forms for heterosexual and heterosexuality.

Louise

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6897 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
calvin's granny
Apprentice
# 1731

 - Posted      Profile for calvin's granny   Author's homepage   Email calvin's granny   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If we're posting all this stuff, how come the church isn't fully engaging with homosexuality.

Serious point: could Joan the Dwarf tell m e how context is supposed to show me that homosexuality may not be inconsistent with Biblical teaching ?


Posts: 3 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Joan, you are a genius. I shall be passing your handy-dandy guide around the church office this week. Might put it in the newsletter, too, if there's room. Thanks a bunch! I'm always looking for good newsletter stuff.
Posts: 24417 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crucifer
Shipmate
# 523

 - Posted      Profile for Crucifer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am relatively new to SOF's boards and I don't know if anyone has already posted this link elsewhere, but FWIW, I will recommend this site as an interesting look at the issue. http://www.gseh65.freeserve.co.uk/

--------------------
Crucifer

Posts: 232 | From: Diocese of Rupert's Land, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

 - Posted      Profile for John Donne     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
19) Who can I be mean to? I'm just waiting. Agog with anticipation. It's been ages since I've flamed someone. [You are The Coot]

PaulTH is leading the pack at the moment, for classifying homosexuality as an 'incontrollable proclivity' akin to hypersexuality.

And I have to have a flouncy, queeny fight with Joan (by PM of course, so's not to titillate nasty hetty voyeuristic tendencies) because. Just because.

I do so hate being thought of as a primal creature directed by my native instincts. Celibacy, the ultimate demonstration against. Or is it just the catchphrase for peer rejection, undesirability and failure to get a pick-up on a Friday night?


Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sibling Coot:

PaulTH is leading the pack at the moment, for classifying homosexuality as an 'incontrollable proclivity' akin to hypersexuality.

Oh my, I missed that. Must be losing my touch

Mind you, that is a nice example of 18). I'm guessing the idea of "incontrollable [surely uncontrollable?] proclivity" comes from seeing all these homos banging on about wanting to be able to bang one another, and hets thinking "ooh, that's in such bad taste to talk about it". There is a failure to realise that if hets too were suddenly told it was sinful to have sex then it would sure as hell become important for them. A lot of the time gay people challenge straight ones because we are living proof of how important sexuality is for everyone - it's just that hets can get away with not thinking about it if they a) tie it up in 'acceptable' marriage, and b) cast gays into outer darkness.

quote:

And I have to have a flouncy, queeny fight with Joan (by PM of course, so's not to titillate nasty hetty voyeuristic tendencies) because. Just because.

Oh good grief no my dear, we're meant to be big butch dykes in biker jackets, don't you know. Nothing at all queeny, we leave that to the boys.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

 - Posted      Profile for John Donne     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No! No! Femme is the new Butch! (Septimus told me).

It's a sort of role-reversal thing like Violette le Duc dressing up in a male body stocking to come on to Jean Genet.

M'dear, I am of course, a dyke on a bike. (Do Vespa scooters qualify?) Excuse me, I have to apply some lippy. Where's my handbag?


Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

 - Posted      Profile for Siegfried   Author's homepage   Email Siegfried   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's all just a symbiotic relationship, sweetie darling. Lesbians repair our plumbing and do our remodeling, and we decorate their homes and do their hair (well, at least for the non-butch ones!)

Sieg

PS-darn it! Just broke a nail! Wouldn't you know?!


Posts: 5591 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

 - Posted      Profile for John Donne     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm chortling with butchily camp, potentially transgender delight!

Where's that nice, young 'St. Whatisname' gentleman? We could parade around on the thread in a sort of online Mardi Gras.

(Come on, jemmi dear, all is forgiven... hop up onto the float... oh! and I see bicurious tedward in the distance)


Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rewboss
Shipmate
# 566

 - Posted      Profile for rewboss   Author's homepage   Email rewboss   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by calvin's granny:
Serious point: could Joan the Dwarf tell m e how context is supposed to show me that homosexuality may not be inconsistent with Biblical teaching ?
One argument is that the ban on homosexuality was relevant to a particular society, not necessarily our own.

The Israelites were, at this point, a band of refugees wandering around the desert looking for a place to live. They were open to attack, and needed as many fighting men as possible. This meant they needed as many children as possible: men to fight, and women to bear children. So all men were to be encouraged to impregnate women.

This idea has merit, especially as it explains, for example, the existence of the cautionary tale of Onan, condemned for practising the withdrawal method. And given that soldiers tended to die relatively frequently, it would explain why polygamy was allowed, but not polyandry (one woman, many husbands), as well as the logic behind the Levirite marriage (if a man died childless, his brother was duty-bound to marry that man's widow).

So the context is a tribe in the desert, constantly under threat of attack. That context doesn't exist now, so (the argument goes) the ban on homosexuality is irrelevant.

--------------------
The latest from the world of rewboss


Posts: 1334 | From: Lower Franconia, Germany | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
frin

Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9

 - Posted      Profile for frin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
20) I am thinking about questions around homosexuality and ordination but will not attempt to make my mind up in the next 6 years (I am the United Reformed Church in the UK)

--------------------
"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.

Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

 - Posted      Profile for 3M Matt   Email 3M Matt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
This idea has merit, especially as it explains, for example, the existence of the cautionary tale of Onan, condemned for practising the withdrawal method.

To be fair, I don't think this story had any big social context. More simply Onan was dishonest to God. I think that's the sin that was committed surely?

Incidently, I have a friend who is bisexual..she has a boyfriend, but also simultaneously a sexual relationship with her best female friend. She insists both are essential and feel natural to her, and she could never possibly make up her mind which to choose if she had to choose between them.

What do people (particularly the "inclusives") think about this?

Matt

--------------------
3M Matt.


Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dear Matt, I'm not going to pass judgement on your friend (judge not lest ye also be judged, so good biblical precedent there, y'know). What is your exact question? Is it right to be in a relationship with two people at once? Is it right for homosexuals to do this? Is it right for bisexuals specifically?

I would never ever under any circumstances have an intimate relationship with more than one other person. The emotional and sexual bond in what I feel to be the most intense and spiritual form would simply preclude that. Trust, openness and honesty could not survive for me in such a situation, which I feel are imperative in a relationship. I didn't think this in my hetero-repressed days (yes, I cheated on a boyf once), but having discovered what real, deep, spiritual and sexual love actually is this is now my opinion. Monogamy forever!

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

 - Posted      Profile for 3M Matt   Email 3M Matt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My question, was that my friend is convinced her sexual activity is natural, normal, and she could not behave in any other way without feeling repressed or restricted. Does that neccessarily mean her practice is ok?

I should point out both the boyfriend her her female friend are aware of the situation, not only that, but my impression is the whole thing functions as a three-way relationship in fact. So there is not a question of "dishonesty" being at work here.

Incidently, no..I am not judgemental of her. As I said, this person is a friend, and I wasn't using the term with irony.

--------------------
3M Matt.


Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
21). I do not believe that homosexual acts are intrinsically sinful but will not say so because this will cause a blazing row and affect my chances of future preferment. (I am several prominent members of the Church of England who I will not name lest the hosts have apoplexy caused by the state of the libel laws in the UK).

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9694 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
WARNING! LONG POST!

Sorry, Calvin's granny, the on-line Mardi Gras kind of obscured your qu.

There's much theological writing out there on the subject, so I'm only going to be able to summarize the arguments, rather than actually argue properly (that would take an even looooooonger post!). Further reading at the end.

The 'bible bullets' commonly used against gays are:

1) Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as you lie with a woman - that is detestable"

On a personal note, I have no problem with this. Lying with women is fine by me
More seriously, this is part of the Jewish Holiness Code. We are not Jews, we're Christians. As Paul says repeatedly, we don't follow Jewish Law (cf allowing in uncircumsised Gentiles as Christians in NT churches, Peter's dream about eating non-Kosher food "That which I have made clean you shall not call unclean", etc.).

2) Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestible."

Ditto as for 1). Also, look at verse 18:it prohibits sleeping with a woman during her period on the same terms. There's also prohibitions against wearing mixed fibre clothing. Anyone got a polycotton shirt on?

3)Genesis 18-19: the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The sin isn't one of sodomy, it's about abuse of hospitality and gang-rape. If the men of Sodom were really raging raping pooftahs, would they have accepted Lot's daughter instead of his male guest and raped her until morning? Also, you have to talk very hard to try and get a prohibition against homosexuality out of a judgement against homosexual AND heterosexual gang rapes.

4) Deuteronomy 23:17: "No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine-prostitute"
5) 1 Kings 14:24: "There were even male shrine-prostitutes in the landl the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites"
6) 1 Kings 15:12: "He expelled the male shrine-prostitutes from the land"

These all talk about prostitution rather than committed relationships, so say nothing about homosexuality per se.

7) Romans 1:26-17: "Even their women exhanged natural ralations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men"

Finally, something that talks about lesbians!
Paul in Romans is talking mainly to the Jews, and is showing how Christianity is a natural extension of Judaeism, and the law of love the successor to the law of Moses. He starts off by trying to puncture the Jews sense that they are justified by their works by showing that they don't follow even their own laws. Basically, he says: look at these nasty heathen who did all these things that Mosaic Law prohibits (that's the bit where the quote comes from), aren't they bad, oh by the way you're like that. He's using the Jews' ideas against themselves (remember, Paul was VERY well-trained theologically): it would need quite a lot of argument to show from this that he thought homosexuality was wrong.
Other points made are: Paul's talking about hets who do homo practices, ie go against their own natures. And he might be talking about the homosexual practices that went on in Pagan temples.

8) 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homsexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

There is a translation problem here. The relevant bits are: male prostitutes, and homosexual offenders. The Greek is 'malakoi arsenokoitai'. 'Malakoi' means 'soft', but no-one knows what 'arsenokoitai' means - the meaning has been lost. 'Arsen' means 'male', and 'koites' means 'bed' or 'sexual intercourse', but there is no recorded use of 'arsenokoitai' before Paul, so we don't know to what it was referring - temple prostitutes, call-boys, child male prostitutes or what? Taking it to mean simply 'male homosexual' (again, there's nothing about lesbianism here) is a very large assumption. Here, the two words have been translated separately: malakoi as male prositiute, arsenokoitai as homosexual offender, but no-one really knows how to translate it.

9) 1 Timothy 1:9: "We know that law is made not for the righteous but for law-breakers and rebels... for adulterers and perverts,... and whatever else is contrary to sound the sound doctrine"

Again, this is the NIV translation. Again we have 'arsenokoita', translated in this passage as 'perverts'. See above.

10) Jude 7: "Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion"

See 3). Also, Jude does not specify the perversion - it may be referring to the legend that the women of Sodom had sex with angels. Basically, Sodom became a byword for lust and perversion: how you can get from that to a prohibition on loving and monogomous homosexual relations where there is no compulsion or exploitation is beyond me.

AFAIK this is all the bible says that could possibly be interpreted as refering to homosexuality. Do let me know if I've missed anything.

FURTHER READING:
What the bible says about homosexuality

Difference is not a sin

Chapter 2 of 'Issues in Human Sexuality' by the House of Bishops, 1991.

Finally, here's a few other bible quotes to ponder:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." -- John 3:16

"God, who knows the heart, showed that He accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us." --Acts 15:8

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28

"The voice spoke to him a second time, ' Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'" -- Acts 10: 15

"By your fruits will you know them" --- [can't remember]

"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." -- Romans 7:4

"The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery'...[etc]... and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: Love your neighbour as yourself."

And from the liturgy: "We are the Body of Christ; by one Spirit we were all baptised."

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh boy, double post, sorry...

Matt, you seem to have a very naive view of liberalism. You're expecting a liberal to say "oh well, if she feels it's OK for her then that's all that matters", aren't you, and wave their limp wrists? That sort of a response is as much a cop-out as an evo response of "no, it's all wrong outside of marriage full stop" - they're the two extremes, whereas truth, as always, lies in the difficult middle ground.

How do we tell what's right? The best answer I've found (I can't off the top of my head remember where) is that we have to look at what forms of life lead to an increase in holiness and Christian living and love. In terms of relationships, do they bring people closer to God and an understanding of his love? Are they a blessing to the world around them?

I personally cannot imagine a relationship that is a blessing to the people involved and other people and is holy and God-centred but involves more than two people.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
TonyK

Host Emeritus
# 35

 - Posted      Profile for TonyK   Email TonyK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
J the D - thanks for your 13:03 post.

I have stayed out of these discussions before, being, I guess, a number 8!!

Review now underway.

I especially liked your gentle wrist-slap reminder at the end!

--------------------
Yours aye ... TonyK


Posts: 2710 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
If the men of Sodom were really raging raping pooftahs, would they have accepted Lot's daughter instead of his male guest and raped her until morning?

I think you are thinking of Judges 19, where an incident similar to Sodom occurs. In Sodom no daughters were raped - the men were struck with blindness. Both the Sodom and Gibeah stories seem to be meant to depict the absolute nadir of civilization.

And, Joan, I find it hard to accept your explanations of those various Bible verses. Whether or not you believe that homosexuality is wrong, attempting to reconcile it with the Bible is a fool's errand. It requires too many logical leaps and unorthodox assumptions to hang together.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


Posts: 12829 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Freddy, you're right, they didn't actually get hold of Lot's daughter. Although why would Lot have offered his daughters in the first place if he knew the men only wanted other men?

As for a 'fools errand', well we disagree, fairly obviously. I think it's a fools errand to try and get a prohibition against loving, committed and monogomous homosexual relationships from the Bible as it doesn't talk about them anywhere. And BTW as I said these are not "my" arguments - I just summarised what many properly-trained theologians have argued in much greater detail.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Note to self - STOP double posting!

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

attempting to reconcile it with the Bible is a fool's errand. It requires too many logical leaps and unorthodox assumptions to hang together.

Unfortunately you have not backed this statement up. As I showed in my post, I think the unorthodox assumptions and logical leaps come in the attempt to prohibit homosexual relations from scripture. I'm now waiting for your refutation of these arguments...

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
Unfortunately you have not backed this statement up... I'm now waiting for your refutation of these arguments...

Sorry. I tought they were obvious. This topic is just a little too scary for me. The anger is palpable.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


Posts: 12829 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Sorry. I tought they were obvious. This topic is just a little too scary for me. The anger is palpable.

Yes, I'm angry... sorry it showed. I'm angry that people dismiss biblical scholarship as "logical leaps and unorthodox assumptions". I'm angry that the arguments weren't taken seriously - do you really think I would have posted that long post if it was "obvious" that the arguments don't stand up? Freddy, I don't want to be angry over this, but I can't argue with non-arguments like "it's all silly and that's obvious". You may be a number 2, but that doesn't mean that's end of story, end of discussion. Back it up, and we can have a good, fruitful, non-angry discussion!

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stoo

Mighty Pirate
# 254

 - Posted      Profile for Stoo   Email Stoo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
why would Lot have offered his daughters in the first place if he knew the men only wanted other men?

just to throw in a classical perspective here...

the distinction between heterosexuals and homosexuals was not one the Greeks found (i cannot speak for the Hebrews, but i thought an ancient viewpoint might throw some light on the matter). it was perfectly natural for middle-aged Greek men (with wives) to take young boys (just entering adulthood) for lovers in order to teach them. (unfortunately, we have very little evidence either way for women - sapho's poetry, but that's about it). as far as i am aware, the greeks did not believe that a person had a defined single sexuality. indeed, it seems to be a (relatively) modern construct.

the distinction the greeks made, in fact, was between (apologies for bad taste) penetrator and penetrated. the penetrated was always the "inferior" party.

if this kind of view was shared by the Hebrews, then there would be no problem with Lot offering his daughters instead - these men were perhaps not so much after sex with a particular sex, but rather just sex with whoever they could lay their hands on.

i dunno if that actually adds anything to the discussion or not, but hey-ho.

--------------------
This space left blank


Posts: 5266 | From: the director of "Bikini Traffic School" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
St Rumwald
Apprentice
# 964

 - Posted      Profile for St Rumwald   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Rumwald jumps on...

Sodom story has always interested me 'cos

1) God had decided to destroy the city before the inhabitants got round to wanting to 'know' Lot's guests

2) As angels do not have genitalia it's a dead end anyway

Right. Angry bit.

And just to whip back up the thread to the strange post

quote:
This is the bit I never understand. I am heterosexual, but I don't consider it "Who I am". I don't feel any inclination to "come out" and tell everyone I'm heterosexual

Shall we lay this one to rest now? It's heterosexuals, usually bigotted ones and sometimes well-meaning 'liberal' ones, who perpetuate the whole 'defining by sexuality' business. The responsibility for that waste of time is all with the breeders. I'm sure the gays of this world would be quite happy not to be defined by sexual orientation if only you lot would let them be. OK? To some, if sexual orientation is not hidden away safely in the closet it's being shouted from the rooftops. Perspective please!


Posts: 31 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
St Rumwald
Apprentice
# 964

 - Posted      Profile for St Rumwald   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Double post time!

Sorry should add an absence of digestive system to genitalia for angels as well.


Posts: 31 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
Back it up, and we can have a good, fruitful, non-angry discussion!

Joan, I can understand your feelings. I would love to go through them point by point, but I'm afraid I haven't time right now. However, since these points have been dwelt on ad nauseum in other threads, it might be easy to just look them up. The assertions and counter-assertions about the Biblical view of homosexuality are fairly standardized at this point.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


Posts: 12829 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, they are standard arguments, and I know pretty much how you would try and refute them - what I was objecting to was simply having the arguments brushed aside as if they weren't worth bothering with.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, sorry about that. The effort for a movement to attain legitimacy in an institution that has traditionally regarded it as a terrible evil is a very painful one. It is no wonder that conversation about it is difficult. I agree that it is most important for any conversation on this topic to be conducted in a way that is as polite and free from anger as possible. I didn't mean to simply dismiss your arguments. Perhaps when I have time I will reply to them one by one. Or maybe someone else will.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12829 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Pax

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
rewboss
Shipmate
# 566

 - Posted      Profile for rewboss   Author's homepage   Email rewboss   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by St Rumwald:
angels do not have genitalia
How do you know?

--------------------
The latest from the world of rewboss

Posts: 1334 | From: Lower Franconia, Germany | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by St Rumwald:
It's heterosexuals, usually bigotted ones and sometimes well-meaning 'liberal' ones, who perpetuate the whole 'defining by sexuality' business. The responsibility for that waste of time is all with the breeders. I'm sure the gays of this world would be quite happy not to be defined by sexual orientation if only you lot would let them be. OK? To some, if sexual orientation is not hidden away safely in the closet it's being shouted from the rooftops. Perspective please!

Emphasis added.

So are you painting all heterosexuals with the same brush or not? If you are, please don't. It's a violation of the Ship's third commandment.

RuthW
Purgatory host


Posts: 24417 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  ...  92  93  94 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools