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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Mousethief - so would I, but I have to be here!
What's your excuse? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Morbid curiosity?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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geelongboys
Apprentice
# 4870
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Posted
hooray...relevance......for some of us..this is an important personal and theological discussion...with major life implications.
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Love the sinner, hate your own sin.
Posts: 13 | From: Perth,Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You're absolutely correct geelongboys and forgive me if I made it sound like I don't think it's important. Some of the topic can be uncomfortable, however, at least to me. But that doesn't detract at all from its importance.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
This program was on my public television station last night. I highly recommend it. Somewhat harrowing though.
quote:
Family Fundamentals
This is a personal attempt to answer an explosive question: what happens when conservative Christian families have children who are homosexual? Armed with a digital camera, filmmaker Arthur Dong takes viewers into the private and public lives of three families who respond to gay offspring by actively campaigning against gay rights. 'Family Fundamentals' is a battlefield report from America's profound and disquieting culture war over homosexuality.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Elizabeth Anne
Altar Girl
# 3555
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Posted
I saw that program too, Sine. It was really something; quite harrowing, particularly the very last scene.
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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...
Posts: 974 | From: New York | Registered: Nov 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
What was the last scene?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
from the above link :
quote:
His family agrees to participate in Dong's documentary but refuses the moment he arrives. When his parents recommend electric shock therapy, Mathews loses hope and packs his bags for home.
Kyrie Eleison.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Philip Larkin was right.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
The thread is long enough already - please take domestic and animal discussions to a more suitable venue.
![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif)
Sorry, was away and catching up...
David
still thinks baby otters are adorable, albeit not specifically gay as such
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Big Steve
Ship's Navigator
# 3274
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Posted
Sine - just read the link.
It breaks my heart. In Ireland today I do not know any Christians who are openly gay. The article struck a chord. Not everyone has the strength to be openly gay and risk losing everything they once belonged to. All I can think of is that there must be people I know who know they are gay but would rather live in quiet denial, maybe even married, maybe even speaking out against homosexuality, maybe even hoping for a cure.
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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic
Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jimi Kendricks:
All I can think of is that there must be people I know who know they are gay
I think you can be absolutely sure of that.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
I do not know any Christians who are openly gay
In my youth, I knew a lovely Christian bloke who was gay. But I didn't get to find out that he was gay until several years after he had committed suicide on account of it, and was featured on a TV programme. That's how I found out that my friend had been gay - from a programme on TV.
And yes his dad's response was to start a 'ministry to homosexuals' in the local area called 'U-turn Anglia' - you can guess its aims from the name I think.
Later on there was a whole TV programme devoted to my friend (who was called Simon Harvey if anyone has heard of him) - called 'Better Dead than Gay?'. I still have it on video (this was about 12 years ago) - very painful to watch the horror of what this guy had gone through, being unable to reconcile his sexual orientation to the evangelical faith which he was active in, to such an extent that he had to take his life. In fact his funeral was the first I'd ever attended, and must have been so hard for our minister to lead (he knew about the gay stuff by then, but the parents wanted it hushed up).
Very very sad business.
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I still have that video, too, Gracious Rebel. It was an extremely sad story ; saddest of all was a statement made by his father, which I also have on video, that he would rather he died than had come out as gay, because at least he ius in Heaven.
With that sort of thinking, its clear why he could never accept his son and buries his grief in a branch of the ex-gay movement. Fortunately, these groups are extremely unsuccessful.Lets hope the more open environment in today's society will mean there will be less cases like this in future, although whilst anyone is caught up in that sort of belief structure, it won't be easy for them to escape. I have friends who have, though, thank God.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
quote:
In Ireland today I do not know any Christians who are openly gay
These links may be of help
Reach - ecumenical group in Dublin. http://www.reachireland.net/index.htm
Julian Fellowship PO Box 5155, Dublin 14
Support and self-development groups for Christian lesbian women.
Reach (Cork's Gay Christian Group)-Tuesday 7.30pm-9pm (021) 431 9008
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Hmmm. I came down here to see if any of the anti-Gene Robinson apprentices like Soldier4Jesus or Norm had shown up.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Guess not. Just not a fashionable enough a neighborhood, I guess.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
And of course, Gracious Rebel's story is why this discussion isn't really a dead horse at all. The Presbyterian email network here in NZ is busily thrashing around on it, with one person even suggesting the death penalty as listed in the OT should still apply. Those of us who are lesbians (no gay man seems to be joining in) have been arguing till we're blue in the face, but some days you really wonder whether its worth it.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
[QB]Kyrie Eleison.
What does this mean again? I heard it a lot in the Orthodox worship at Greenbelt.
I am still sitting on the nail in the middle of the fence when it comes to homosexuality, in pretty much every issue, except one: that gay people are "allowed" to be Christians and should be welcomed in the Church and our churches.
Just thought I'd tell you.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Rob, a seach engine is a wonderful thing to avoid exposing ignorance (and so easy):
quote:
Kyrie eleison \Kyr"i*e e*lei"son\ [Gr. ky`rie 'elei^son .]
1. (R. C. Ch.) Greek words, meaning ``Lord, have mercy upon
us,'' used in the Mass, the breviary offices, the litany
of the saints, etc. --Addis & Arnold.
2. The name given to the response to the Commandments, in the
service of the Church of England and of the Protestant
Episcopal Church.
...and how does sitting on that nail feel?
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Might a good thing be if people knew more of the scientific background behind sexual orientation? I know it's low level moral reasoning (important caveat) but a relative of mine has eased up on this issue precisely because she is now impressed by the evidence that orientation is a "given" rather than a "choice."
There is still another hurdle to overcome of course, but it's easily answered with another question. "If sexual orientation is not a choice why is there discrimination against gays in the arguments for celibacy?"
I know there will still be some who say "Tough ... that's your cross. I've got mine," (I'm paraphrasing a no longer living Orthodox bishop, second hand) ... but the key test is reasonableness. Thinking about my own church for a moment; Orthodoxy is dead against enforced celibacy in the priesthood. Cannot this stance and argument be extended for the same reasons? Just asking.
So long as folk talk theology IRRESPECTIVE of the scientific (as well as personal) evidence; we are bound to keep talking past each other in vacuo.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
So what is the scientific evidence?
(I don't think a search engine will help me on this one, but point taken...)
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Obviously there's no absolute proof, Rob, but the BMA , in the last age of consent debate, acknowledged that sexual orientation did exist and was likely to be integral to the person.
There is also precisely no evidence of a scientific nature that it is a choice, and the overwhelming evidence from the experience of gay and lesbian people is that it certainly isn't.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Of course it has nothing to do with choice.
Who in their right minds would listen to Barbara Streisand?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Being pedantic, absolute proof is impossible in science. Cogent explanatory theories that make sense of the evidence are. There is research that suggests that hormonal conditions in the mother at conception and therafter skew the orientation graph. This was in the New Scientist I think not long ago but I haven't got a link. There is no suggestion that such hormonal conditions are abnormal or atypical.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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that Wikkid Person
Shipmate
# 4446
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Posted
David Cross's recent comedy CD has the argument that he can't picture a teenaged kid saying "Everyone at school hates me and treats me like shit. I know! I think I'll choose to be gay! That'll fix all of my problems!"
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We have only one truth and one reality. Let's make the most of them.
Posts: 1007 | From: Almonte, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
Who in their right minds would listen to Barbara Streisand?
Somebody who likes her singing?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Somebody who likes her singing?
...[long thoughtful pause]..........
Nope. That sentence doesn't make any sense to me. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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that Wikkid Person
Shipmate
# 4446
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Posted
Perhaps someone who likes to dress up as her, wearing a false nose?
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We have only one truth and one reality. Let's make the most of them.
Posts: 1007 | From: Almonte, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Ahem...I don't like Barbra Streisand. (Or "Barbra Strident" as I like to call her.)
But then I did date girls, and enjoy it, up through my college years. Perhaps that makes a difference.
On another note (Ouch!), I do have a gay friend who claims he knew he was "different" as early as age four, whatever that proves.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I feel like a walking cliche.
Streisand is wonderful. And I knew I was 'different' at a very young age as well...can't say why, just did.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But then I did date girls, and enjoy it, up through my college years. Perhaps that makes a difference.
I didn't realize there were adult converts to homosexuality. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
My mom likes Streisand -- does that make her a gay male?
These stereotypes really leave me cold.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Surely you like Bette Davis ? She's wonderful. That scene in 'Whatever Happened to Baby Jane where she sings I've Written a letter to Daddy', and when she serves a rat and a dead bird up to Joan Crawford - oh, its just the very best camp has to offer.
The fact that Bette and Joan genuinely loathed each other makes it all the better.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
You poor deprived thing.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Well, you really ought to, or we'll come and take away your card. Although what your particular card says, I'm sure I don't know.
I'm just kidding, David.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Or as some would say,
You poor depraved thing.
(Just trying to avoid hostly reprimand for getting off topic.)
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Cardinal Pole Vault
Papal Bull
# 4193
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Posted
I have a major thing for Tina Turner.
Love a bit of "Nutbush City Limits (90's Version)" ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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"Make tea, not war"
Posts: 986 | From: Insula Tiberina | Registered: Mar 2003
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
I think all homosexuals are going to burn in Hell!
We're on topic, Tony. I swear we are.
Rather fond of Patti Labelle, myself.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jimi Kendricks:
Rob,
I can't believe how lazy you are.
Why not put "scientific evidence" and "gay" in google and click "search".
It's not that hard.
Sorry. I tried it once before under "evolutionary + biology + homosexuality" but I should have persevered.
I still don't know what to think after doing as you said and reading a bit. It's all very confusing.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I just got a toaster, and I've had my wife so long the warranty's expired so I think I'd better politely decline, David.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Cardinal Pole Vault
Papal Bull
# 4193
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I think all homosexuals are going to burn in Hell!
I'd rather be lightly toasted..
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"Make tea, not war"
Posts: 986 | From: Insula Tiberina | Registered: Mar 2003
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I was probably aware of my sexuality from the age of three or four... I can't say I knew I was a lesbian because I didn't know they existed until I was ten. I did, however, know with absolute certainty that I would never fall in love with a man at any age whatsoever. I was completely and utterly tortured about this until my mid teens. I suppose that's what gets me now. At 22, I'm pretty thick-skinned when people make remarks about my sexuality: water off a duck's back. However, while thrashing this issue out with a couple of evangelicals recently, I wanted to scream at them, "Don't you understand that you are condemning CHILDREN? This is not something that suddenly hits you at eighteen. Don't you realise that gay teenagers are four times more likely to commit suicide than straight ones?" ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) That is the real tragedy behind this issue. Whatever anyone says about "love the sinner, hate the sin," the distinction is too subtle for kids. It doesn't work as a disclaimer for intolerance.
Btw I worship and adore Dusty Springfield ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) (oh look, another Christian driven to the brink of suicide by guilt about her sexuality ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) ) and Patti Labelle, Sugar Pie DeSanto, Aretha Franklin, Diana Ross (to a point - she's not as good as Betty Everett ) Marilyn Monroe etc. Even have a taste for Shirley Bassey. Hmm, on this evidence I would appear to be a gay man. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
(Trying to get it back on track ) ...
What have you found confusing Rob please?
I think I find Romans 1 confusing. If I could have a reasonable, fair, wide-ranging exegesis of this passage it would solve a lot of my problems...
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Romans 1 is mainly continuing to set the scene for the epistle by linking inexcusable idolatry with moral decline. St. Paul places this in the context of God's coming judgement and present salvation.
Those who regard active homosexuality as incompatible with the Judaeo-Christian faith often use this passage to justify their position. Those who seek to defend monogamous loving gay unions will claim that St. Paul's target is pederasty and temple prostitution ... both quite commonplace in the Graeco-Roman world. (The pederasty involved the sexual relationship between an older man and a youth almost as a rite of passage but with, usually, but not always, a heterosexual relationship as its conclusion. There were severe penalties where such relationships involved pre-pubescent boys though).
I think that attempts to legitimise homosexuality via this route are not very persuasive (ie., the different context) ... but that's just my opinion. I think that this interpretation is rather contrived. I think that if one was to justify today active homosexuality in a monogamous context one would have to do that largely on the grounds that our understanding of sexuality and human development has moved on and that idolatry has nothing to do with it. After all, we no longer ascribe epilepsy to demonic possession do we? ... yet this is how Jesus handled it. I think THIS argument is the clincher.
[ 30. August 2003, 23:20: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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