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Admiral Holder:
I need to be honest and say my thoughts are generally in line with those of David on ***, but that is me -- and I make no judgement or remarks on others.

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in light of this (my italics), you better have


(or did you not mean to indicate that you think gay ppl should not be ***ually active except for fisting, bdsm, mutual masturbation and toy play?)

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Thus pontificated The Coot (Icarus):

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Admiral Holder:
I need to be honest and say my thoughts are generally in line with those of David on ***, but that is me -- and I make no judgement or remarks on others.

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in light of this (my italics), you better have
(or did you not mean to indicate that you think gay ppl should not be ***ually active except for fisting, bdsm, mutual masturbation and toy play?)

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I must remind myself not to post as soon as I get up and before I've had my coffee.

What I mean to say is that my position has generally been inline with David's opinions on *** between two men [I'm not touching the other issues ] - no doubt perhaps due to the very fundamentalist up-bringing I had in part and the denial or non-acknowledgement beforehand. It is a rather mute point with me anyhow as I have no *** drive whatsoever. As I said previously, however, this is for me and me only: I feel you need to be comfortable with something before you can participate in it - I make no judgement for others one way or the other.

Thanks again all. Please forgive any unclarity or anything that comes across uncharitably: I do not mean it. I'm just trying to take things a step at a time.

Ian.

[Duplicated post deleted]

[ 22. October 2003, 07:41: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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Thus pontificated Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Neither of us was looking at the time.

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Originally babbled by Mousethief:

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Thus pontificated Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Neither of us was looking at the time.

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That's the best way to meet your special someone in my experience!

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I met my cub that way as well. Actively hunting for people wound me up with a stalker (who is happily not remotely in my life now).

Arabella and Admiral Holder

for Coot re ambivalence toward Christianity, and :respectful disagreement: (no smiley for that one, alas) re our differences

And to all

Sorry I haven't been posting lately on the Ship in general; trying to make up for that today, which turned out to be the most confusing day possible to catch up on Ship threads...

David

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Originally babbled by Papio:
Also, Chastmastr, is your new avatar chosen by you or ChrisT? Whichever way, I think you should keep it because it is cute.

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ChrisT, actually. Hummm, maybe I should keep it?

And a fellow C.S. Lewis fan, I see, Papio! ("Location: Shadowlands")

David

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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(for anyone who may be interested)

Am currently reading "Bi Any Other Name: Bisexual People Speak Out" (edited by Loraine Hutchins and Lani Kaahumanu) and it is a highly interesting, moving and varied book with a wide range of views and experiences detailed in it.

Is certainly making me alternate between laughing out loud and shit my pants. (and giving me "oh dear" moments of recognition). If you are at all confused about this issue, I strongly recommend it. Is one of those books one can dip in and out of without having to read too much in one go.

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Originally posted by Papio:
People really should get over their Boolean thing regarding sexulaity

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Are you saying Boole was a homophobe?

I think sexual orientation (what an ugly word but hey it's the one we have) is probably like a continuum, albeit a valley-shaped curve (sort of a bell-shaped curve turned upside down or inside out) with most people clustering to one end or the other but still a goodly number residing in the middle.

Myself I've never snogged with a man nor desired to. I know Lesbians who could say exactly the same thing. (I think Lesbians have excellent taste in sexual partners, frankly. ) And yet I know there are people in the middle. They're not confused or in denial, they're just what they are.

I suppose all of which is to say, "What Papio Said."

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Originally posted by Papio:
Yes Try. I think that you reject the view that homosexuality is wrong. If you have read my posts on this thread and on the various +Gene threads you will see that I am in full agreement with you on this.

What I meant was not that find homosexual behaviour offensive (since I am Bi) but that many people in society do find it offensive and do not place homophobia in anything like the same category as racism or sexism. This is something we need to work towards changing.

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Originally posted by helluvanengineer:
I've noticed other threads discussing the irrelevance of religion in European society. Apparently, religious/spiritual fervor comes in waves, and Western Europe seems by many to be on the down-swing. Could there be a connection between fact that in the past few decades, W Europe seems to be leading the world in tolerance/advocacy of homosexuality and the fact that during the same time period W Europe seems less interested in religion?

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Originally posted by helluvanengineer:
To be honest, I only read the first 200 posts or so, and the last couple dozen, so maybe I'm not qualified to speak.

But to answer your question, I'd say that the bible and the church have all come down pretty hard on homosexuality through the years. Of the seven or so verses which address the issue of homosexuality, all of them condemn the practice. If I wanted to find out what the bible says about murder, I'd read the passages which deal with that topic. If I want to find out what it says about homosexuality, I look there. Historically, the church has been very condemning of all sexual sins. This is how it has interpreted the biblical teachings on sexual sins. Who am I to openly challenge both scripture and tradition, and then label as bigots others who uphold both? There's sinning and repenting, and then there's calling evil good and good evil. I'm not convinced by the opposing viewpoints because they seem to me to be neglecting both germaine scripture and tradition and assuming that God doesn't care (although that certainly wasn't his stance per scripture), so neither should we.

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You appear to start with the belief that homosexuality is a sin, and then look for Biblical evidence to support your view, not the other way around.

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1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to sleep with men, but another man, whose faith is weak, believes this is sinful. 3The man who sleeps with other men must not look down on him who considers it a sin, and the man who considers it a sin must not condemn the man who does not, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers heterosexuality the only way; another man considers every monogamous relationship alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards heterosexuality as the only way, does so to the Lord. He who has sex with men, does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who remains celibate, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no monogamous sexual union is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of your homosexual relationship, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your sexuality destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of sex and marriage, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of sex. All sex is clean, but it is wrong for a man to do anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to have sex with a man or enter into a same-sex union or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his actions are not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

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