homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Dead Horses   » Homosexuality and Christianity (Page 27)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  ...  92  93  94 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
Big Steve

Ship's Navigator
# 3274

 - Posted      Profile for Big Steve   Author's homepage   Email Big Steve   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Wasteland - are you going to stop preaching and start engaging in the discussion? You spew a mouthful of preachy moralistic crap and then completely fail to engage and anybody else's comments. Five days after being asked a question you pretend like you didn't hear it and start preaching again.
What's your problem? If you've already decided that your world view is 100% inpenetrable (sp?) why are you posting on discussion boards (with the emphasis on discussion)?

--------------------
http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic

Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Big Steve

Ship's Navigator
# 3274

 - Posted      Profile for Big Steve   Author's homepage   Email Big Steve   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Wasteland, it's not that I have any big questions I wanted you to answer - just in general I find you not engaging any aspect of the discussion.


Mousethief. I got the word vitality from an old book The Ethics Of Sex by Helmut Thielicke. It's an English translation of a German book. I thought it was a apt word - it described something without sexual innuendo, which "randy" and "phoar!" don't quite manage. [Smile]

--------------------
http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic

Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

 - Posted      Profile for Divine Outlaw   Author's homepage   Email Divine Outlaw   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
"I believe in progess" ... now there's a credo bound to impress those of faith.

Well, I think that Christians should believe in the possibility of progress, and should have a lively hope that history is the forum in which our salvation is lived out. The problem with the naive whiggish optimism of both theological and political liberals is that they seem to think that progress is both automatic and innate to the order of things. Theodor Adorno once commented that progress has been 'from the slingshot to the atom bomb' - you don't think everything that masquerades as progress is good do you Wasteland? I happen to agree with you about homosexuality, by the way.

--------------------
insert amusing sig. here

Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

 - Posted      Profile for Father Gregory   Author's homepage   Email Father Gregory   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes DOD ... it's the "automatic" and "innate" aspect that I spit at ... not progress Spirit led per se.

The abolition of slavery was progress, (thank you Christians of the 19ty century evangelical revival).

The invention of the atom bomb was regress.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

 - Posted      Profile for Lyda*Rose   Email Lyda*Rose   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Oh, and from catholics for choice
"The Vatican has reissued its declaration banning Catholics who have divorced and remarried from receiving communion, unless they abstain from sex. According to church doctrine, Catholics who divorce and remarry are living in sin, as they are still married to their first partner. According to the document, ministers "must refuse to distribute [communion] to those who are publicly unworthy." " italics mine

--------------------
{quote}Ken

RCs lie by omission all the time about using birth control and I don't know that they're actually called on it too often even when they have conspicuously ceased to reproduce. Can't the remarried put on their game face, look their priest in the eye, and say that they are not having sex? [Biased]

Yeah, I'm being facetious. But RCs in the US have left the Church behind on these personal matters for years. They go to church and just refuse to confess birth control as a sin that needs repentance. Their priests usually offer them the Elements, no questions asked. Much the way most offer communion to gays and lesbians, on a don't-ask-don't-tell basis.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Wasteland
Apprentice
# 4700

 - Posted      Profile for The Wasteland         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Big Steve

I am not sure that you have asked me any questions. As I read it you seem not to grasp the heart of what I was saying or, at best you skirt around it. The Evangelical wing of the CofE are INSISTING that everyone either agrees with them or splits from them. They have a “one way, my way” view of the world. They want a form of Christianity that by its very nature represents an impenetrable barrier to the vast majority of LGB people ever becoming Christians. If you are LG or B and you firmly believe that homosexuality is not sinful BUT rather something to celebrate – what space is there for you to fit into a Church that follows this Evangelical line? None at all – that’s what. You will be hounded out by people getting at you about your “sinful lifestyle” and refusing be happy for you in your relationship. The vast majority of LGB people are therefore by definition excluded, the vast majority are therefore highly unlikely even to become remotely interested in Christianity in the first place. What happens to them then? Are they damned or saved?

In case it has escaped your notice, the fact is that we have had to put up with years of “preachy moralistic crap” from Evangelicals and YES conservative Christians of all kinds INCLUDING Catholics (who are just as bad… especially Nazis like Ratzinger).

You talk of “debate” but, lets be honest, there is no debate at present – the Jeffery John and Gene Robinson incidents proved that. The only “debate” these Evo’s are interested in is to shout very loudly “we are right and we are going to impose what we think on everyone else – either agree with us or don’t be a Christian”. They have closed all the doors on debate by defining the bounds of any “debate” purely in terms that they feel leads only to a conclusion that they have already reached. As soon as anyone disagrees with these loonies they throw all their toys out of their prams and start making threats about schisms. They aren’t at all interested in anything remotely resembling a “debate” as far as I can see and their scary little world is entirely impenetrable to normal people.

MY problem (and my sole reason for posting here) is simply to clarify an answer to the question “why are they so homophobic?”

The issue is ultimately simple, either someone believes homosexuality is a sin or they do not. If they believe homosexuality is a sin then there is very limited space for debate. Either they can mend their ways or they can’t. I have no great wish to “debate” in any significant way with them – I will tell them what I think of them, that’s all. I think they are no better than racists. I think they are poisoning the lives of innocent people. I think they are a force for evil in the world.

My absolute bottom line is that I am NOT going to demean myself by “debating” with people who strongly believe that homosexuality is “sinful” – debate implies being open to changing my mind – that’s not going to happen. I KNOW that homosexuality it is not sinful.

What is more, any real debate – i.e. debate on the future of society as a whole – for me has to start from the first premise that homosexuality is NOT sinful. Only at this point do we even arrive at square one. In the meantime you may as well ask a Jew to engage in debate with a Nazi. In the meantime we exist in separate worlds. There is no common ground on which debate or discussion can proceed because they believe I am living and/or promoting a “damned life style” – I am the “Gay Rights Lobby” – that’s what they call me isn’t it? To be brutally honest I view their religious beliefs with utter contempt. I have no respect for their beliefs at all - they make me feel sick. Or maybe I should qualify that by saying “I hate the religion – not the religious” – that sounds OK doesn’t it?

--------------------
but there is no water...

Posts: 27 | From: The wilderness | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Wasteland
Apprentice
# 4700

 - Posted      Profile for The Wasteland         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
By the way, contrary to popular belief, I am not Mersey Mike. Although I do know of him. I know an LGB forum where he has posted in the past. On that forum my views (which I am sure seem relatively anti-Christian to some) are fairly moderate compared to some of the comments he would no doubt have encountered.

What seems incredible to me is the extent to which people here appear to be so ignorant of the full extent of the anger that the Evangelicals (and Catholics like Ratzinger) have succeeded in stirring up over the past year.

Comments such as the following are quite comon, read it, this is where we are today...

quote:
"I have never understood why religion is elevated above any other system of belief, like communism, capitalism or Manchester Unitedism, etc. Some people believe in ghosts and fairies and are treated as weird, but I see no difference in the how far one needs to stretch the imagination to accept any religion as fact.

Getting back to the original question, if you can remember that far back. No, I don`t think the pope is an asshole. An asshole is a practical and necessary orifice, which can also, if you`re lucky, be a pleasurable place. An asshole can also be a stupid person. I don`t think the pope is stupid. He is deliberately nasty and vindictive, and demonstrates just what happens when you give someone power and influence; it corrupts them.

The trouble is that when man starts to contemplate his place in the universe he can`t accept that he is alone, and starts to invent religion as a comfort blanket.

People can believe in UFO`s, or Michael Howard, for all I care. What I do care about is when otherpeople`s beliefs discriminate against me."



--------------------
but there is no water...

Posts: 27 | From: The wilderness | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

 - Posted      Profile for sharkshooter     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Wasteland:
The only “debate” these Evo’s are interested in is to shout very loudly “we are right and we are going to impose what we think on everyone else – either agree with us or don’t be a Christian”.

How is that different from what you are doing here?

quote:
Originally posted by The Wasteland:

My absolute bottom line is that I am NOT going to demean myself by “debating” with people who strongly believe that homosexuality is “sinful” – debate implies being open to changing my mind – that’s not going to happen. I KNOW that homosexuality it is not sinful.

An excellent debating technique.

--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big Steve

Ship's Navigator
# 3274

 - Posted      Profile for Big Steve   Author's homepage   Email Big Steve   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Wasteland, you have completely proven my point that you are no more than a soap-box preacher.

--------------------
http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic

Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Wasteland:
What seems incredible to me is the extent to which people here appear to be so ignorant of the full extent of the anger that the Evangelicals (and Catholics like Ratzinger) have succeeded in stirring up over the past year.

Comments such as the following are quite comon, read it, this is where we are today...

quote:
"I have never understood why religion is elevated above any other system of belief, like communism, capitalism or Manchester Unitedism, etc. Some people believe in ghosts and fairies and are treated as weird, but I see no difference in the how far one needs to stretch the imagination to accept any religion as fact.


Not-mike,

what do you mean "over the past year"

Where have you been for the past two centuries?

Comments like that started being made in public in Europe in the 18th century, they were a commonplace of public life in the 19th (though not so much in English-speaking countries). The first world war brought back lip-service to ritualistic religion as a way of bearing the pain, but by the 1950s and 60s the stuff you posted was probably more or less the vieww of most people who could be bothered to express an opinion.

It's certainly more popular these days than any kind of assent to the intellectual propositions of Christianity.

Who did you think would be shocked by it?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

 - Posted      Profile for Father Gregory   Author's homepage   Email Father Gregory   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You can have a go at Wasteland for his preachy style. You can nitpick over his accuracy. You can criticise his tendency to state rather than debate. All this can be done with considerable justification. What no one has dealt with here, however, (very much, at least) is his anger and, importantly, what that signifies.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belle
Shipmate
# 4792

 - Posted      Profile for Belle   Email Belle   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why are people homophobic? Good question. Not just - surely - because they have read in the bible that god doesn't like same sex sex. After all, there are a lot of other things condemned in the bible as strongly and more often. And many of those are things which all of us fall prey to every day. Things that are so subtly, so intricately woven into our society that we don't even consider our sin(I'm thinking of the oppression of the poor, widows and orphans, among other things). There must be other factors at work. Many cultural, many societal, but not easy to unpick - especially when you have something to pin your prejudices on which seems to justify them. Even if you do believe that same sex sex is something that cannot be right for Christians based on what you read in the bible, I don't think that can account for the attitude towards it that is often expressed - which one could more easily characterise as fear and suspicion. As Master Yoda says - fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

But Wasteland, don't you need to decide what it is to be - either you engage in the debate - which means engaging with the opposite viewpoint - and all shades between, or you withdraw from the battle and give yourself a break - preferably with like-thinking minds.

People do sometimes re-examine their ideas - but not usually without dialogue. During a debate people often develop respect for the people they are debating with - and that in itself can be a catalyst for change.

--------------------
where am I going... and why am I in this handbasket?

Posts: 318 | From: Kent, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

 - Posted      Profile for Papio   Email Papio   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
F.W.I.I.W (possibly not much), I chat to MerseyMike fairly often. While I can see parallels between MerseyMike and The Wasteland - I do not think they are the same person.

--------------------
Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page

Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

 - Posted      Profile for Arabella Purity Winterbottom   Email Arabella Purity Winterbottom   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Speaking as someone who is currently in a bit of a wasteland myself after going through National Assessment and being turned down because the committee couldn't reach consensus (8 supported me, 3 didn't and wouldn't move - very unusual, and one has to wonder about their honesty, since they weren't supposed to take sexuality into account) I can share The Wasteland's frustration. I often feel as though queer people are having to enter into Christ's suffering in a way that other people would run screaming from.

But I can't agree that we shouldn't engage. The last ten years of engaging have seen a change. I know that those 8 who supported my candidacy are hurting almost as much as I am. 10 years ago I didn't get that level of support. And the engaging has given me strength, particularly in sustaining the gospel of Jesus Christ as a lesbian. I have never waivered in my faith in God, and in return I believe God has never waivered in support of me. God loves me, and in that love is challenge and confidence. God doesn't ask me to sit back down and cry. God tells me to keep on standing up to carry the gospel.

For sure, there are crying moments because as I have been working through what happened at NA, the spokespersons for the NA work group have been changing their story (three times now) to cover their backsides. And they're doing that by insinuating that I wasn't fit for ministry - clearly untrue if the bulk of the committee supported me. That makes me very sad.

But there is nothing wrong with me. I know that I presented exceptionally well, and the psych tests showed me to be well over the norms in leadership, management, people skills and self care (the psychologist said that she hadn't had anyone so sane in a long time!)

The end result makes me angry, but the anger gives me energy to keep on engaging. God doesn't let me just sit back and grieve. That's me, and I'm probably at a different stage in my journey from Wasteland. And Wasteland, don't forget you have lots of sisters and brothers around the place.

--------------------
Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Arabella - one day National Assesment will accept you. And then a spontaneous party will erupt all over the world, as happy Shipmates take to the streets singing, dancing (and puzzling the heck out of the rest of the population!).

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
amen to that wanderer.

hang in there, arabella.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
La Sal
Shipmate
# 4195

 - Posted      Profile for La Sal   Email La Sal   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Arabella,

It is sad to hear that some have not accepted you because of their deep-seated prejudice. I am proud of you for your courage to persevere, armed with the the Love of God AND your sanity! As a lesbian, I thank God you are one of us at this critical time.

Posts: 175 | From: sonoran desert | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[Frown] *HUGS* Arabella...

David

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

 - Posted      Profile for Mamacita   Email Mamacita   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What Wanderer said.
So disappointed for you, arabella p.w., but in awe at your strength.

--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Chiming in with Mamacita and Wanderer. Don't give up, Arabella. [Votive]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
mythusmage
Apprentice
# 5275

 - Posted      Profile for mythusmage   Author's homepage   Email mythusmage   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Folks, if God wants to have queers in heaven, far be it from me to tell Him He can't.

(Hey, I've read the Book of Jonah. I know how God gets when you tell Him he can't do something.)

[ 06. December 2003, 08:54: Message edited by: mythusmage ]

--------------------
Never trust an answer that agrees with your prejudices.

Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Speaking as someone who is currently in a bit of a wasteland myself after going through National Assessment and being turned down because the committee couldn't reach consensus (8 supported me, 3 didn't and wouldn't move - very unusual, and one has to wonder about their honesty, since they weren't supposed to take sexuality into account)

Well I got zapped once for a job by one person on a committee of 10 and I still don't know why. That kind of thing happens it may or may not be sexuality for you it certainly wasn't that for me.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve O
Apprentice
# 5258

 - Posted      Profile for Steve O   Email Steve O   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I will make this one contribution and then bow out gracefully, because this is the topic, that in a world where a child dies needlessly every 4 seconds , where billions suffer and endure hardships we cant even imagine, when the ravages of poverty, war, disease and death stalk our world, we as supposed Christians CHOOSE to tear ourselves apart on, "discussing" Homosexuality, got to say the phrase" straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel" comes to mind, just cant remember who said it first!!.

Correct me if Im wrong but Im sure Christ didnt even mention homosexuality once, now if it was all that important surely he might just have mentioned it, even in passing, but no, not one recorded mention. However what he did mention ,and on numerous occasions , was matters relating to wealth, riches and those that possess them.

It always strikes me as rather strange that the mainly Conservative elements in the Church, those that profess to "uphold the written word of God" are silent when it comes to applying his word to the rich and powerful. Just when was the last time someone was condemned for being too rich, or prevented from taking up a post within the Church because of their wealth, enlighten me if Im wrong but it doesnt happen.

It is always easy to hit out at those who are marginalised within society, either because of their sexual orientation, race, economic deprivation or their being viewed as "sinners" eg drug users, prostitutes, single parents. For at one time or another all of these groups have fallen foul to the "Righteousness" of Gods chosen people, but rarely the rich, rarely the powerful, the paradox being of course Christs relationship with the poor and dispossessed was always characterised by love and compassion, his relationship to the rich and powerful one of warning and judgment. You know, perhaps as his professed followers we should try to practice the same.

Posts: 32 | From: Leicester, UK | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
..is it just me, or is that post really weird coming after several posts of encouragement?

Steve, next time read the WHOLE thread.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
TonyK

Host Emeritus
# 35

 - Posted      Profile for TonyK   Email TonyK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
mythusmage and Steve O - my I extend the customary hostly welcome to the Ship.

I'm sure you will have already read and committed to memory the Ship's Ten Commandments - if you need a refresher, the link is on the left.

Check out the other boards - taking note of their guidelines - and have fun!

--------------------
Yours aye ... TonyK

Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve O
Apprentice
# 5258

 - Posted      Profile for Steve O   Email Steve O   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Apologies to all, must confess after residing on another board for a few months and having this topic consistently raised almost as often as "interpretation" of the Bible and validity of the O T , couldnt bring myself to read what I considered to be the same old story, "liberals" and "conservatives" banging their heads together over a subject whose relevance in the context of human suffering and poverty must surely pale into insignificance, as soon as I saw the subject heading I really did think "Oh no Lord , not again", and before I had even read or considered others views via their postings my reply was made.

Not a very good start is it, I will try to do better next time, once again, red faced, my apologies to all concerned.

Posts: 32 | From: Leicester, UK | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve O:
couldnt bring myself to read what I considered to be the same old story, "liberals" and "conservatives" banging their heads together over a subject

The purpose we have 'dead horses' is simply to put in all the tired out discussions which are over done and to be honest I am sure your point has been made quite often during this thread. You might find some more interesting discussions in purgatory.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Steve, for what it's worth your contribution seemed to fit right in to me. Given Jesus never said anything about this issue why do we (the Church) spend so much time a) agonizing about it and b) using it as an excuse to attack other Christians (such as Arabella)? That's what I thought you were saying, anyway.

Whatever you meant, welcome to the boards. Each one has a slightly different flavour but after a bit of browsing it will all become clear. Honestly. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yeah, sorry for the grouchy reply, I was a little disoriented. [Hot and Hormonal] I see where you are coming from, though, Steve O

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Wasteland
Apprentice
# 4700

 - Posted      Profile for The Wasteland         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Arabella,

I do not believe that you are in a “wasteland”. You are one of the good guys. For what its worth I don’t think your future depends too much on the decisions made by the hierarchy of this church. If they fail to accept you then it is they who will fail. It is THEY who will be in a wasteland.

As it happens, I am not in a wasteland either…it is Christianity itself that is entering the wasteland.

If these conservatives succeed in their precious quest for clarity, “tradition” and consistency of doctrine – what will they have actually achieved? Nothing more than drive good people like Gene Robinson away from the church, either that or exclude them from it – that’s what. What kind of church would they then have? An increasingly fundamentalist and isolated one that will be viewed more and more as a nutty cult who's tiny universe is full of scary bullshit.

Their influence will fade.... just as their version of god will fade day by day... just as Zeus and Marduk faded before him… existing only in words and in image rather than in substance. When a god or a religion reaches the stage where belief in that deity depends on legalistic enforcement of doctrine by a spirtual elite - that religion is dead. Such churches WILL fail. They will tear organised Christianity apart with their harsh unyielding version of the truth and their inability to abide any whose versions appear different. Their future holds only infighting and backbiting. They are on a path to oblivion. They do not realise it (that much is clear) but the game’s already up…it is just a matter of time now.

--------------------
but there is no water...

Posts: 27 | From: The wilderness | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Enough positivity - why not tell us what the worst case scenario is?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

 - Posted      Profile for Divine Outlaw   Author's homepage   Email Divine Outlaw   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Wasteland:
When a god or a religion reaches the stage where belief in that deity depends on legalistic enforcement of doctrine by a spirtual elite - that religion is dead. Such churches WILL fail.

Funny that. Because religion seems to be doing rather well in the Bible belt, for example. I want abusive religion to fail as much as you do. Sadly it doesn't always.

[ 08. December 2003, 10:19: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw-Dwarf ]

--------------------
insert amusing sig. here

Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

 - Posted      Profile for John Donne     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just a FYI link of a shameful case in the Solomons Islands. Not generally considered a newsworthy nation to the world media (Barely reported: 7 murdered Melanesian Brothers)
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
helluvanengineer
Apprentice
# 5136

 - Posted      Profile for helluvanengineer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You know, Wasteland, just because faith died out in your own mind over homosexuality and other disputed issues doesn't mean that the whole world will suffer the same fate. I believe you are projecting.
Posts: 16 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

 - Posted      Profile for Father Gregory   Author's homepage   Email Father Gregory   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dear Wasteland

Wishful thinking dressed up as objectivity. Have you such little self knowledge? Maybe you need to keep Christianity monochrome. It's an easier target and confirms your prejudices. The level of your argumentation does no good service to your cause. You sound like a Marxist announcing the imminent fall of capitalism. Still waiting. If history teaches us anything it is that nothing is inevitable. Expect the unexpected.

[ 08. December 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Wasteland
Apprentice
# 4700

 - Posted      Profile for The Wasteland         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Do you believe that I am simply projecting my own personal experiences on society as a whole? I think the facts speak otherwise. I would not describe my analysis of Christianity as “wishful thinking” so much as “honest inevitability”. History shows erosion of Christian belief in the west from the time of Enlightenment onwards.

The overall trend post WW2 is obvious – Christianity in the west is haemorrhaging followers – not only in secular Europe but EVEN in America, despite its Bible Belt. The overall figures don’t lie.

Today there are 29.4 million American adults who have no religious identification—an increase since 1990 from 8.16 percent to 14.17 percent. That is a huge increase in just a decade!

True enough, a majority of Americans still self-identifies as Christian – 77% in 2001. But this is sharply down on the 86.7% in 1990 – and how much of this 77% is no more than “lip service”?

Another interesting recent Gallup poll (2001) concerns rather dramatic changes over the past two decades in beliefs about the Bible.

20 percent of the American public now consider the Bible to be a book of fables and legends, in comparison with 11 percent in 1981.

Moreover, belief that the Bible is "the actual word of God" declined from 65 percent in 1963 and 37 percent in 1981 to 27 percent in 2001, a rather strong trend, more in line with European “god-lite” beliefs.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/kurtz_22_3.htm

Look at the history of religions that have disappeared. The Greek Olympian religion is a good example. Long before it disappeared it had ceased to be a living vibrant religion. It remained central to cultural identity & the majority of people continued to pay lip-service to it & show up at public rituals. So superficially all appeared to be well BUT a growing proportion of people simply viewed it as a collection of myths and stories with little real relevance to the big issues of their world and their time. They were participating in the rituals and paying lip-service to the mythology simply out of habit/custom/because their parents did etc – not because it really connected with them in any meaningful way. That is where Christianity is today in the west, isn’t it.

The conservative evangelicals and their ilk are NOT going to herald in any renaissance – not at all. What they have done and what they will continue to do is to preside over a polarisation – forcing an increasing number of people to make a clear choice between their brand of “no compromise” bible based fundamentalism on the one hand and secularism on the other. For every one person they convert to their brand of Christianity they will convert two waiverers to secularism.

--------------------
but there is no water...

Posts: 27 | From: The wilderness | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
From the Gospel of Neville, Nag Hammadi Library X312-34:

And as they were gathered to pray on the feast of Pentecost, Peter stood up among them and said, "Look, guys, there's only 11 of us, oh and a few women (thanks for doing the washing up at Passover, by the way). I don't really see much point in carry on. All those in favour of disbanding?" And they did raise their hands and did vote seven to three with one abstention in favour.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

 - Posted      Profile for Divine Outlaw   Author's homepage   Email Divine Outlaw   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
You sound like a Marxist announcing the imminent fall of capitalism.

Ahem, A VULGAR Marxist, thank you.

Wasteland, prediction of social phenomena is notoriously dodgy, on account of the complexity of human societies, and the impossibility of achieving a closed experimental system.

--------------------
insert amusing sig. here

Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Wasteland:
Moreover, belief that the Bible is "the actual word of God" declined from 65 percent in 1963 and 37 percent in 1981 to 27 percent in 2001, a rather strong trend, more in line with European “god-lite” beliefs.

This has nothing to do with a drop in Christianity. If I were asked "Is the Bible the actual Word of God?", I would answer "no". It is inspired by God, and through it God's overall message can be discerned, but the literal, actual word as spoken by God? Nope.

quote:
Look at the history of religions that have disappeared. The Greek Olympian religion is a good example. Long before it disappeared it had ceased to be a living vibrant religion. It remained central to cultural identity & the majority of people continued to pay lip-service to it & show up at public rituals. So superficially all appeared to be well BUT a growing proportion of people simply viewed it as a collection of myths and stories with little real relevance to the big issues of their world and their time. They were participating in the rituals and paying lip-service to the mythology simply out of habit/custom/because their parents did etc – not because it really connected with them in any meaningful way. That is where Christianity is today in the west, isn’t it.
Funny, I always thought the Greek Olmpian religion was subsumed into the (very similar) Roman religion when Rome conquered Greece. Then the Roman polytheistic religion was removed when it's rulers (I forget which) converted to Christianity. A somewhat different process to the one you describe.

quote:
The conservative evangelicals and their ilk are NOT going to herald in any renaissance – not at all. What they have done and what they will continue to do is to preside over a polarisation – forcing an increasing number of people to make a clear choice between their brand of “no compromise” bible based fundamentalism on the one hand and secularism on the other. For every one person they convert to their brand of Christianity they will convert two waiverers to secularism.
No middle ground whatsoever, eh? If you read the other boards here, you may find that "'no compromise' Bible-based fundamentalism" is only one part of the overall spectrum of Christianity across the globe. Have you even thought about trying any of the others?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

 - Posted      Profile for Father Gregory   Author's homepage   Email Father Gregory   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dear Wasteland

Quit preaching and prophesying for a moment and answer me this ...

Where have you buried "why?" ?

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Steve, next time read the WHOLE thread.

Reading the whole of this thread would be a cruel and unusual punishment.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
You sound like a Marxist announcing the imminent fall of capitalism.

Ahem, A VULGAR Marxist, thank you.

Wasteland, prediction of social phenomena is notoriously dodgy, on account of the complexity of human societies, and the impossibility of achieving a closed experimental system.

You used the phrase "vulgar Marxist".

So I read the next line as "production of social phenomena".

[ 09. December 2003, 22:18: Message edited by: ken ]

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Funny, I always thought the Greek Olmpian religion was subsumed into the (very similar) Roman religion when Rome conquered Greece. Then the Roman polytheistic religion was removed when it's rulers (I forget which) converted to Christianity.

Not really. Roman public religion was Greekified, the rather rural and crude Roman gods being increasingly identified with the Greek ones. That carried on as a kind of public lip-service cult long after most Romans who expressed an opinion had opted for one or another Eastern mystery religion.

Private Roman religion tended to be based on local cults and veneration of ancestors. It is (believe it or not) well-depicted in the film Gladiator - although that's already perhaps a bit late for it. Someone of his period ways maybe more likely to worship Mithras, or Sol Invictus, or be a Stoic.

The public pagan rites carried on for the best part of a century after Christianity became dominant under Constantine - they were mostly removed by Theodosios, though lingered o in odd corners for another half century after that.

But by that time no-one had much pretended to believe in them in any intellectual sense for centuries.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

 - Posted      Profile for Divine Outlaw   Author's homepage   Email Divine Outlaw   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Steve, next time read the WHOLE thread.

Reading the whole of this thread would be a cruel and unusual punishment.
And your point is what? This is Blunkett's Britain after all.

--------------------
insert amusing sig. here

Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Wasteland
Apprentice
# 4700

 - Posted      Profile for The Wasteland         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
“Why” can be a big question Fr. Gregory – should we fear the answer or embrace it? Surely the truth, however hard, is better than a lifetime of illusion. Especially when the illusion is that something is “good” when it is not (whatever “good” is).

A friend of mine is a lesbian who lives in Brighton. To be honest I don’t know her that well and she isn't one of my closest friends by any means but I nevertheless know her. I know what she does for a living, I know what her girlfriend does, I know her views on this issue and that. She’s a fairly ordinary person really. Just bumbling along through this life as best she can. She cares about other people, enough to try to make a difference now and again. She cares enough to make an effort. She tries, in her own small way. Of course, we don't see eye to eye on everything and, in many respects we have very little in common. She's quite a bit older than I am for one thing. But, overall, to me, she is a person and she has a name – you see she isn’t just “a lesbian” - she's a friend.

About three years ago we had a conversation with a man who you might well described as a “traditional Anglican”. Middle aged/approaching retirement age he was very much of the old school – no doubt someone who considered themselves a “gentleman”. During that discussion (in which the subject of gay parenting came up) he told her:

quote:

“Thank God you can’t have children.”

He’d totally de-humanised her in his mind hadn’t he. I wept for her that night.

So…"why?" That is the real question isn’t it? Where is the source of the problem? What lies at the heart of it? How deep does this cancer actually go within Christianity? What has gone wrong? Do you honestly think that a religion like this deserves to survive?

--------------------
but there is no water...

Posts: 27 | From: The wilderness | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

 - Posted      Profile for Divine Outlaw   Author's homepage   Email Divine Outlaw   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Wasteland:
That is the real question isn’t it? Where is the source of the problem? What lies at the heart of it? How deep does this cancer actually go within Christianity? What has gone wrong? Do you honestly think that a religion like this deserves to survive?

Indeed, these are all very good questions. Another interesting question relates to homophobia in wider society. Hompohobia is not by any means confined to practising Christians, or to religious people of any flavour. Yes, religious discourses have played a particularly nasty role in legitimating homophobia but they are not the sole, or even the primary, cause. I think there are very complex issues about gender and power at the heart of it all, and that your kneejerk secularism doesn't go any way towards offering an explanation or a solution.

--------------------
insert amusing sig. here

Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

 - Posted      Profile for Father Gregory   Author's homepage   Email Father Gregory   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Quite so DOD. [Overused]

Dear Wasteland.

I think I would have hit him.

Anyway ... please don't change the subject of my tangent.

Why is indeed a very big question. That's all I wanted to hear you say.

BTW ... nothing at all in my religion justifies hompohobia. We are to love all. Your broad brush "religion is the enemy" is, frankly, just plain stupid.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Wasteland
Apprentice
# 4700

 - Posted      Profile for The Wasteland         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't buy the "its not us - honest guv" line. There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

Take Peter Akinola as an example. This guy is an ARCHbishop and therefore fairly senior within the overall scheme of things. Yet here is a guy that describes homosexual relationships as an...

quote:
"aberration unknown even in animal relationships".
Imagine if a German Archbishop had described Judaism in such terms? We'd be dealing with rank anti-semitism wouldn't we.

Clearly Akinola's comments represent pure unadulterated homophobia of the most hateful kind. If the Christian religion really wasn't homophobic then I'd expect to see a clamour of calls for his imediate resignation! Insead it's Gene Robinson who is the target of the main outcry!

That alone proves that the cancer of homophobia in modern Christianity runs extremely deep indeed - quite likely to the core.

--------------------
but there is no water...

Posts: 27 | From: The wilderness | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Don't blame me for whatever you dislike about Akinola. I'm in the Church of England. We don't even get to choose our own bishops, never mind anyone else's.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

 - Posted      Profile for Arabella Purity Winterbottom   Email Arabella Purity Winterbottom   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Wasteland:
I don't buy the "its not us - honest guv" line. There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

Snip stuff about Peter Akinola

That alone proves that the cancer of homophobia in modern Christianity runs extremely deep indeed - quite likely to the core.

Yes, but matey, some of us queers are working bloody hard to try and make a change within the church. And when you poke at perfectly good straight people like Gregory and Divine Outlaw Dwarf, you're not helping them in their work trying to make a difference either. In fact, I have seen straight people who have worked to the point of risking their own careers for this issue simply give up because of the hostility of queers - one of our closest friends in the church gave up all hope of power in the church to fight on our behalf, and then was pilloried by gay and lesbian people because she wasn't queer. She hasn't exactly given up, being personally supportive of us, but she decided against speaking in public.

I agree that the church is a deeply homophobic institution. But God isn't. And neither are the hundreds of straight church people who wrote letters of support and distress after I was turned down for training.

--------------------
Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  ...  92  93  94 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools