homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Dead Horses   » Homosexuality and Christianity (Page 4)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  92  93  94 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hey sharkshooter - I can sympathise with what I call the "primative ugh" reaction: I have that towards heterosexuality. It does not, however, give me any sort of moral etc right to tell hets to stop what they're doing or even to call it sinful. We're both allowed to feel as repelled by the other's sexuality as we like, but we're not allowed to act out of that feeling towards one another!

Inanna - I second Elaine's comments, the Ship is a safe place. It's very safe to explore in as well: I've found people have been pretty patient with me, even when I go into one of my ultra-agressive moods

Elaine - I should've said, thanks for your posts, they both made valuable contributions.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:

If the idea of peanut butter and banana sandwiches disgusts me, and that is OK, why is it not OK for the idea of homosexuality to disgust me? Others may like peanut butter and banana sandwiches - I'd just prefer if they did not put them on my plate or eat them in front of me.

I think that the main difference with this is that there are all sorts of other things to eat other than peanut butter and banana sandwiches (can I also add an 'ew' at the idea?). And even their most devoted advocate would not suggest a diet solely of such substance.

But, for those of us who are lesbian and gay, there really is no other alternative when it comes to relationships. We don't have the choice to "eat something else" (OK, I know there's an innuendo there, but I'll keep this PG for now )

So it's a case of trying to compare apples and oranges - the analogy doesn't really hold up....

And as for your other point about the cycle continuing - absolutely. I think it's such a real shame that the image most heterosexual Christians have of gays and lesbians is:

a) entirely focused on our sex lives
and b) based on the worst stereotypes from gay pride parades and the 'angry vocal' minority.

And likewise, I'm sure there are way too many gays and lesbians who sterotype Christians as narrow-minded and homophobic.

[I]Peace,[I]
Kirsti, who thinks that discussions like this are a great place to break past those stereotypes.

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Elaine, Inanna, Gracia, Sharkshooter, and any other new posters I may be omitting, not to mention lurkers who are wondering if this is really all okay ...

Welcome aboard. Yes, we are very glad to have your thoughtful and considerate responses on this thread. Homosexuality is a frequently recurring topic on the Ship, and we hope that we provide a safe place for people to explore ideas on the subject. As long as posters are obeying the Ship's Ten Commandments (most important ones in this context: Don't Be A Jerk and Attack The Issue, Not The Person), all views are welcome.

RuthW
Purgatory host


Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[tangent]

Inanna... you seem familiar... did you use to post here, way back in the beginning?

[/tangent]

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hi Erin...

.. and yes, I did. Way way way waaaaaaaaaaay back.

Kirsti, very impressed with your memory.

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lev
Shipmate
# 50

 - Posted      Profile for Lev   Author's homepage   Email Lev   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Kirsti!!

Hello matey, do you remember me? I met you at Holy Joes about 3 years ago and raved on about your website.. now if you do remember me from way back then I will be VERY impressed.

Welcome back,

...Lev


Posts: 304 | From: Brighton, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

 - Posted      Profile for 3M Matt   Email 3M Matt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Inanna, I was really impressed by your posts, you write in a considered, thoughtful, non-militant way that wins respect.

I'm interested to know how you went from fundamentalisim to Catholicsim though?

I guess you found catholic attitudes to homosexuality more in line with your own, but there must have been an awful lot of other issue's to weigh up on the other side of the scales?

Some of you may remember Ann Widdicombe becoming catholic over the issue of women priests?? (I think I am remembering that correctly?)

It struck me that whatever I felt about women priests a single issue wouldn't get me changing denominations like that.

--------------------
3M Matt.


Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Matt...

Thanks for the kind words.

And actually, the official position/teaching of the Catholic church is about the same as evangelicals - they don't believe that the orientation is sin, but is "objectively disordered" (I think that's the phrase).

Most of this is based on Aquinas's natural law argument, which ends up saying that masturbation is a greater evil than rape or incest (*boggles quietly to herself*) and hence one I feel free to respectfully replace with a more up to date theology.

As far as my reasons for converting.. I'm not quite sure they belong in this thread, but are mainly to do with the sacramental view of life and faith as a Catholic. I no longer have to "work really hard" to try and believe or feel God's presence, or hope for an ecstatic worship experience ... the Eucharist promises that God will be present, whether I believe or not, whether the priest believes it, or not ... it's about God, not about me. Which I really really like.

Peace,

Kirsti

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My goodness, another original resurfacing. Welcome back, Kirsti.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[random chatter]

Thanks Erin for the welcome-back message... good to know that I'm still remembered.

And Lev, OK, I had to surf through your website looking at all the past piccies, but yes, I do indeed remember you being so nice about my webpages at HJs way back when.

[/random chatter]

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Papa D
Shipmate
# 1696

 - Posted      Profile for Papa D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This has been interesting and helpful and I kinda wish there were even more safe spaces to discuss this issue and how one pursues the journey either personally or just as important as an accompanist to a friend working through this issue.

I was talking with a good friend of mine last night who is doing his personal journey with his sexuality. One of the things that was poigniant in our conversation was that he hoped that we could go beyond the support stuff and start of really talk about the issue and to work through this part of our relationship.

My friend said that this journey is dangerous particularly in the church world and some have already felt that the friendship is too much to take on emotionally and so do not make the necessary time for various reasons

The challenge for me as a friend is issues around accompaniment. For me - it is my friend who has the integrity to be working through the truth of his sexuality in his life and my integrity is working through what it means to be a friend in spaces that are hostile to my friends situation.

For some who I worship and work with this can either a) question me and my judgement or
b) alienate me for stuff that I wish to do because of association issues
c) Respect the fact that this person is first and foremost a friend prior to disclosure. I wish it were c) all the time but it is not a perfect world!!

I am not sure whether we have engaged with the accompanying part of this issue especially for friends who might be people who have a higher profile.

Be interesting to hear some more views on accompaniment in church life.

--------------------
Different Flava; Different Style, Unique Saviour.


Posts: 58 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Corpus cani

Ship's Anachronism
# 1663

 - Posted      Profile for Corpus cani     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
It does not, however, give me any sort of moral etc right to tell hets to stop what they're doing or even to call it sinful.

Quite so, and whilst we're at it, can't we come up with a better word than "hets"? Apart from anything else, it's so naff. We have to be so careful about what we call others. Well, FWIT, I am offended by the word "hets" simply because it's such an ugly abuse of the English language. Much worse than those "odd" boys who've hijacked that lovely English word "gay".

OK, the last sentence was ironic (in the sense of "some people won't get the humour") but please! "HETS"???? "Homos" went out even when I was a lad so "hets" can't be any better.

Where are the shipmates with imagination who can come up with some terminology (if we must have it) that neither offends anybody nor is an abuse of the language?

--------------------
Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.


Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stoo

Mighty Pirate
# 254

 - Posted      Profile for Stoo   Email Stoo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
Where are the shipmates with imagination who can come up with some terminology (if we must have it) that neither offends anybody nor is an abuse of the language?

unfortunately, i don't think it's gonna happen. no-one likes to be defined by what they do, and the only words that can define these two groups of people obviously centre in on the differences. someone is gonna be offended by whatever is written... unless we can come up with some unloaded, completely unrelated terms picked at random from the dictionary...

um: "kidney-machines" and "swiggletrees"???

(mind u... i'm sure we could find someone who found those offensive, if we searched hard enough!)

--------------------
This space left blank


Posts: 5266 | From: the director of "Bikini Traffic School" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Corpus - I would gladly use another word if one were provided. But not 'straight', for fairly obvious reasons (because the opposite is 'crooked'!!). And I'd get RSI if I had to write 'heterosexual' every time!

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511

 - Posted      Profile for Alaric the Goth     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If homosexuals have the right to have taken over the word 'gay' as their name-badge (a word my father still resents them being referred to by, as he remembers the 1920s-1950s when it still meant 'happy'), then the majority 90%-plus of the population has the right to be called 'straight' and not by the absolutely horrible 'het'.

Joan the Dwarf's use of that word immediately turns me off anything else she has to say, especially when coupled with her quite aggressive style (IMO).

Thankfully we have, by contrast, Inanna, who puts her case very reasonably and has probably got the attention and respect of the likes of myself and Matt the M.M. (who I believe share a similar starting point of view on the subject).


Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know I've posted aggressively on quite a lot of this thread. All I can do is apologise again; I am trying, this is very difficult for me. I wish I could post like Inanna, I'm sorry. If anyone can have the patience to put up with me, thankyou. This is still very new and raw for me - I've only been out for a couple of months. I am trying to improve the way I post, you don't have to bludgeon me over the head with my failings. I'm sorry. This whole conversation is very painful and not easy at all. And I never intended 'het' to be pejorative at all, even when I was being aggressive. But after remembering the 'Welch' situation, 'straight's fine by me.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
For those of us who are only able to see the world from a purely heterosexual viewpoint, the contributions made by Joan the Dwarf are very useful and enlightening. Keep posting! We may find such views hard to handle but that is probably our problem, not hers.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tina
Shipmate
# 63

 - Posted      Profile for Tina   Email Tina   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks, Chorister, just what I wanted to say! And thanks Joan for your many gracious posts.

--------------------
Kindness is mandatory. Anger is necessary. Despair is a terrible idea. Despair is how they win. They won't win forever.

Posts: 503 | From: South London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Please! The board and the world would be incredibly boring if everyone posted like me.

I've appreciated and enjoyed reading Joan's comments, and - IMHO - if she's sounded agressive, that's probably because she's felt like she has to defend her corner in the face of attacks.

When you're just coming out, and just dealing with all this, and the attitudes of the established church, and your own feelings of "I've always thought this must be wrong, but help, it's me, and it doesn't feel wrong at all.." it's very easy to see rejection and shock everywhere. And get defensive as a result of that.

Me, I've lived with this for a while, I have an incredibly supportive Christian partner, we have a great church (they hired my partner as assistant music minister knowing she was lesbian, and the priest there gave the two of us a private 'engagement blessing' service..) and I've done an awful lot of reading, of thinking, and of praying to get to a point where I'm reasonably secure in my faith and my sexuality.

Joan - you're doing great. Keep listening to God, listening to your instincts, and email me if you want to talk off-board.

Peace

Kirsti

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff_mb
Apprentice
# 1850

 - Posted      Profile for jeff_mb     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Is there *anything* in Leviticus that applies to Christians? Using the language of Article VII ("The Old Testament is not contrary to the new..."), is everything there Ceremony and Rite, i.e., not Moral?

On this and so many other topics, I have many more questions than answers....


Posts: 1 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Quinine
Shipmate
# 1668

 - Posted      Profile for Quinine   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oooh! Bagsy me to be called a 'Swiggletree'. I hereby claim it to describe my unique sexuality, so no-one will be able to pigeon-hole me.

I don't like the word 'het', which I'd not come across before reading this thread - Joan's defence of it is rational, I see that, but there's no denying the ugliness of the word. And, although I have used the word in my previous posts as the lesser of the two evils, I don't particularly like being referred to as 'straight', either - it suggests I don't get to crack any gags, which is a shame.

Language, hey. Insoluble problems. We'll just have to make do.

On another note, I don't find the tone of Joan's posts aggressive. They come across to me as confident and intelligent. I hope I'm not just saying that because I pretty much agree with them... I don't think so.

I must admit I had doubts whether a thread on this topic could avoid becoming a storm thread, but, apart from a couple of hairy moments, I have been impressed by posters' restraint and courtesy.

And Inanna - I see I shouldn't have referred to you as a newbie!


Posts: 252 | From: In a fen | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thankyou everyone. I was wondering about taking back my comments that the Ship was a safe place after Alaric's comments, which I found pretty brutal and upsetting. But I think I'll stick by them - thanks. I've learnt an awful lot over the course of this thread about controlling my instinct to defend by attacking, and about actually engaging with people who think differently, rather than just assuming they're ignorant/bigotted. And learning not to think less of people because they disagree with me on this subject (it was actually Steve on the Falwell thread who made me see how that was possible). Bear with me, I'll get there in the end

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
After saying I wouldn't post on this thread again I have to say i am quite happy to be 'the straight man '.

One of my irritations after the claiming of the word gay by the homosexual community. Is the word 'partner' to mean some one we are having sexual relations with. Partner used to mean some one I did sketchs with the person i worked with.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Community Editor hat ON

Joan said:

quote:
I was wondering about taking back my comments that the Ship was a safe place after Alaric's comments, which I found pretty brutal and upsetting.

The Ship being a safe place does not mean that you (or your style) will be accepted without question, or that everyone will like you. I strongly encourage people here to take stock of what they say before they say it, particularly if it is on highly personal subject. Alaric had as much right to his comments as others had to object to them.

Community Editor hat OFF

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Nightlamp wrote:
One of my irritations after the claiming of the word gay by the homosexual community. Is the word 'partner' to mean some one we are having sexual relations with. Partner used to mean some one I did sketchs with the person i worked with.

That's a tough one. Because what else can I use to describe the woman I love, who has been a part of my life for seven years, and who I hope will be with me until the end of it. Our relationship, our love, consists of an awful lot more than just "sexual relations" Nightlamp - just as any husband would say of his wife that their marriage is more than just what goes on in the bedroom.

I don't like to use "girlfriend" - we're both in our 30s, and it seems somewhat teenager-ish.

I don't really want to use "lover" because, as I said above, our relationship is about an awful lot more than sex. And "lover" seems to be heading for the "rubbing-it-in-people's-faces" which really isn't appropriate in my book.

And I can't use "wife" because we have no official marriage ceremony. (Though I have called her my fiancee on occasions.)

"Life-partner" is way too cumbersome and unwieldy, as is "significant other" (and that also implies that everyone else in my life is non-significant, which certainly isn't the case). "Companion" sounds like I'm an old lady being taken care of, which is also nowhere near the truth.

So any other suggestions as to a word which encompasses the depth of a loving committed relationship, while not offending anyone, or taking more than a few syllables to spell out would be very welcome.

Peace,
Kirsti

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Erin, I was not crying foul play, I was giving my reaction to Alaric's comments. A safe environment includes being safe from personal attacks, which was how his comments came across. Come to think of it, isn't that a 10cc?

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Host hat on

No, Alaric's comments do not constitute personal attack. It seems to me Erin's already made that clear.

Host hat off


Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Saying that he finds your style aggressive, that he dislikes the use of the word "het" and that he isn't inclined to listen to you is not a personal attack. Speaking administratively, I don't have a problem with aggressive posting; "het" is just as offensive and derogatory as "homo"; and whether or not he listens to you is entirely up to him. None of them breached any commandment.

I have always felt the need, however, to make sure that people don't equate safe with unchallenged or universally liked. It saves me from work in the end.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Inanna I can't think of a word but I still use the word partner for some of the people I have worked with

Some of the forms of work I have done have meant more than working togther it was an entire life style we were partners then and as far as i am concerned they are my ex partners.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
*inclines head to hosts* Thankyou for your considered replies. If it's a hostly judgement that 'het' is an offensive term then I will treat it as such here, and apologise for any inadvertant offence caused by my ignorance surrounding its negative connotations.

And no, Alaric has not violated a 10c in his content. It was the nastiness in his tone I was objecting to, hence I didn't yell for the hosts. My last post about the 10c's was a cheap jibe at Erin because I was angry at being told off for being upset - I was trying to pick a fight with you, thankyou for not rising to the bait.

Erin: "I have always felt the need, however, to make sure that people don't equate safe with unchallenged or universally liked. It saves me from work in the end."

For me, safe=safe to challenge and be challenged. As shown by the first 3.5 pages of this thread

Peace? Or have I missed something?

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry, double post...

Back to the thread: maybe it'd be useful to have 2 words, for writing and speaking. In speech I've often heard "other half" (only one more syllable than "partner"), and if thats too much to write then in text I've seen "SO" (for Significant Other). Just don't mix 'em up - calling t'other half your "Esso" in speech might get you a few wierd looks and petrol-station comments

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's fine, Joan -- I wasn't trying to tell you off for being upset. If that's how it came across, my apologies. I just wanted to clear up the safe thing and to remind everyone that you do take a risk in sharing (I speak from bitter experience).

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

 - Posted      Profile for jlg   Email jlg   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I just read all of this all in one sitting and don't know where to start making replies. I'll just content myself with a big hug to Joan for her endurance, especially since I had no idea that she was newly "out" -- I had always taken you, Joan, as someone who was arguing with the aplomb of years of experience (on other topics, too, not just this one). Unlike others, I did not hear anger or undue agressiveness.

I have to admit that I read this topic because I find it so mind-boggling that homosexuality is such a big issue for so many heterosexual people. I guess somehow I lucked out and didn't pick up any early indoctrination about it, so as I grew up and became sexually aware of people, I just gradually discovered that there were different sexual attractions and added it to the long list of attributes that people have in our minds which causes our brain to sort them into interesting/sexual, interesting/nonsexual, boring.

The much more challenging question to me is how to deal with the sexual urges of the adolescent and young adult (without pushing them into early marriage and children) while also creating a civil and religious system that creates and supports stable 'families' which DO provide the proper environment for raising children? And I put the emphasis on *stable*, which is why the 'families' is in quotes.

I realize that for good bible-based Christians, this is just blather, so don't bother arguing with me. But I had to say it.


Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Joan suggested:
In speech I've often heard "other half" (only one more syllable than "partner"), and if thats too much to write then in text I've seen "SO" (for Significant Other). Just don't mix 'em up - calling t'other half your "Esso" in speech might get you a few wierd looks and petrol-station comments

Yeah, I tend to use SO online a fair bit - problem is that very few non-net-literate folks have any clue what it stands for.

As for 'other half' this is a peeve of mine and probably belongs in a Hell-bend rant ... I really dislike the implications that I am somehow giving up half of myself by joining in a relationship. Also, for me at least, it has somewhat sexist connotations where it's used in a demeaning way.. "my better half", when in actual fact, he means "the little woman at home" kind of thing. [disclaimer]Please note, I don't mean this about all men, or all people who use that phrase. this is purely my own gut reaction to it.[/disclaimer]

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Elijah on Horeb
Apprentice
# 1614

 - Posted      Profile for Elijah on Horeb   Email Elijah on Horeb   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It seems I was at least partly responsible for starting off this thread by some remarks I made on the Sex Before Marriage thread - it seemsagesago! I sure opened a can of worms, didn't I? I thought I knew how much fear and angst the very mention of the word "homosexual" could create, but you people have introduced me to new depths!

And for a lot of what was written, I would have to say it was just that - depths of fear and angst which clouded rational thinking and gave rise to the same kind of adolescent "humour" with which so many of us try to hide our deep-seated uneasiness at anything remotely related to sex, especially its physical manifestations. I'm afraid I was less than impressed with a lot of the semi-flippant interchange, especially when it deviated into a kind of delighted recognition and greeting of old friends like that which you see at school reunions.

On the other hand I did appreciate the serious discussions by those who either attempted to exegete the biblical passages involved, or by talking openly of their own experiences gave me a fresh insight into what it's like to be homosexual in a heterosexually oriented Church. Thank you - there are too many of you to mention by name.

I should perhaps confess that I have never had any doubt that I am veryheterosexual, and that I have in fact had very little to do personally with homosexuals (or if I have I still don't know it!) But because the whole question has been very much a hot potato in our Uniting Church here in Australia I have had, like many others, to think deeply about issues which previously had never occurred to me as issues, and to try and arrive at some position which takes account of both God's purity and His love. Let me now try to wind up this thread, certainly my own contribution to it, by spelling out some conclusions which I have reached so far - "conclusions" not being the best word, since I don't pretend for one moment to have all the answers, and that the whole subject is too complex for there to be one final answer anyway:-

First, we should ask, "What is a homosexual?"(and for the purposes of this dissertation I take the word "homosexual" to embrace "lesbian"!):

Is a homosexual one who through no fault of their own finds themselves with the feelings for one or more of the same sex that one would usually expect to feel toward the opposite sex?

OR

Is a homosexual one who actually engages with another of the same sex in physical activities normally associated with physical "love-making" between a man and a woman?

All the biblical passages refer to the latter - overt physical sexual acts. Biblical writers were not in the habit of dissecting psychological motive and subconscious intention, as our society is. So let us be clear that the Bible speaks against physical acts within same-sex relationships - it has nothing to say against deep and abiding relationship between man and man(eg., David and Jonathan) which may well transcend even the relationship of husband and wife.

On the other hand, we cannot avoid the fact that the Bible makes it equally plain, especially in the example and teaching of Jesus, that while certain behaviours may well be labelled "sin against God", there can be no ostracism or rejection of those who perpetrate those behaviours. The story of John8:1-12: the woman taken in adultery, could I believe have equally well been told of two emn caught sodomising each other: "let him who is without sin cast the first stone at them . . . Men, has no one condemned you? . . . Then neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more!"

Surely it is possible for Christians, and the Church, to both declare that homosexuality has no place in God's purpose for humanity, and to demonstrate by word and deed God's self-giving love for all people, regardless of who they are or what they do. I really cannot see that this should be such a problem for so many. It is probably because of society's obsession with physical sex that the whole issue has got out of proportion - someone onthis thread rightly reminded us that sex involves awhole lot more than just this one thing.

Sure, this raises many questions over which there will always be differences of opinion, maybe even radically different answers for different situations. Questions like, What is our attitude to homosexal "marriages"? Should homosexuals be ordained or commissioned to spiritual ministry within the Church? What about the adoption of children by homosexual couples?

I could go on, but I think I've said more than enough already! Surprising how these trains of thought go onfrom point to point before one realizes it!

Over and out!!


Posts: 20 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Quinine
Shipmate
# 1668

 - Posted      Profile for Quinine   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elijah on Horeb:

And for a lot of what was written, I would have to say it was just that - depths of fear and angst which clouded rational thinking and gave rise to the same kind of adolescent "humour" with which so many of us try to hide our deep-seated uneasiness at anything remotely related to sex, especially its physical manifestations. I'm afraid I was less than impressed with a lot of the semi-flippant interchange, especially when it deviated into a kind of delighted recognition and greeting of old friends like that which you see at school reunions.


Hmm. I think that's a bit sweeping, and a bit harsh.

As I've said before, I've been pretty impressed with the level of debate on this thread, and the use of humour hasn't, to my mind, detracted from it, as it so easily could have. This is in contrast to the 'What is sex' thread which I understand has spiralled inexorably hell-wards because of its graphic content.

I also think the humour has served a useful, if not essential, purpose in diffusing tension when feelings have been running high. If cracking jokes had been a way of ducking the issues or taking the mick out of certain groups of people, yes, it would have been irritating, but on the whole I don't think it was.

I can do no better than echo good ol' Mr Lewis on this one, and point out that, 'We must not be totally serious about Venus. Indeed we can't be totally serious without doing violence to our humanity'.

As to why heterosexuals should get so het(!) up about the issue, I've already said my piece, as have others, and I won't get into it again. Suffice it to say that it's not always a prurient preoccupation with other people's personal lives. (Of course, I have that too, but I do try to keep it off this thread...)

Peace, folks, and well done, I say.


Posts: 252 | From: In a fen | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nope, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to take sexuality as a grim matter of life-and-death that one cannot be playful and bantering about at all. If people find exchanges such as in the first bit of this thread difficult to deal with, all I can say is - lighten up. And deal with whatever makes you find homosexuals joking together uncomfortable, rather than blaming them. Sexuality is a gift from God. Humour is a gift from God. Chill, guys.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If 'life-partner' is too long-winded, and 'other half' offends you, then what is wrong with the plain and simple 'partner'. As this is regularly used by long-term live-togethers it is a well known term and usually well-respected.
Those who mean the word in a business sense need only to add 'business partner' to avoid confusion of meaning.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Inanna

Ship's redhead
# 538

 - Posted      Profile for Inanna   Email Inanna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Elijah on Horeb pronounced:
Surely it is possible for Christians, and the Church, to both declare that homosexuality has no place in God's purpose for humanity, and to demonstrate by word and deed God's self-giving love for all people, regardless of who they are or what they do. I really cannot see that this should be such a problem for so many.

So, you're reducing it all back down to a "love the sinner, hate the sin" aspect; and using the grounds that the Bible only refers to homosexual actions to conclude that all homosexual behaviour is a sin?

Your comments made me wonder - how much of what gay and lesbian Christians have been saying did you really read? Take in? It's not as simple as your statement makes out.

You focus right back on the sex again, with your example of "two men sodomizing eachother" - and your very choice of verb is one that would offend and upset many gays and lesbians. The story of sodom is not about homosexuality. So using 'sodomize' in this context is inflamatory at best. (And, from what my friends tell me, anal sex is not necessarily a part of many gay men's sexual behaviour anyway.)

You are right in stating that the Bible in no way condemns - and actually in several places affirms male-male friendship ("More pleasing to me was your love than the love of women" as David said to Jonathan or vice versa), and the female bonding of Ruth to Naomi, where the words originally said from one woman to another are now often used in wedding services.

And I would say that from there is the place of acceptance of lesbian and gay relationships. Not focusing on what may or may not go on in anyone's bedroom. But meeting us as children of God, as equals, with a right to form monogomous faithful partnerships, just as heterosexuals have.

Peace,
Kirsti

--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tirian
Shipmate
# 149

 - Posted      Profile for Tirian   Author's homepage   Email Tirian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Incidentally, does anyone here remember Roy Clements? Resigned from EA and several other organisations a while ago after coming out of the closet . . . I thought he had disappeared from the face of the earth, but here he is again http://www.royclements.co.uk - with some very interesting letters and articles on his site. Worth a look.

Tirian

--------------------
"Just remember, the last time a nation did what a bush told
them, they spent forty years wandering in the desert . . ."


Posts: 63 | From: Hoxton, London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511

 - Posted      Profile for Alaric the Goth     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Having had (as usual) a weekend away from my computer, I have only got round today to reading the responses to my post.

I am sorry, Joan the Dwarf, for any nastiness of tone -looking at my original post it could have been put nicer. It is remiss of me to criticise someone for 'aggressiveness' and do so in an unpleasant manner. I also aplogise for it seeming to you to be a 'personal attack'.

--------------------
'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)


Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Alaric - . Thanks.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."

Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
jlg, you are not alone.

quote:
I have to admit that I read this topic because I find it so mind-boggling that homosexuality is such a big issue for so many heterosexual people. I guess somehow I lucked out and didn't pick up any early indoctrination about it, so as I grew up and became sexually aware of people, I just gradually discovered that there were different sexual attractions and added it to the long list of attributes that people have in our minds which causes our brain to sort them into interesting/sexual, interesting/nonsexual, boring.

I have the same feeling when I get into these threads -- even ones that are as well conducted as this one has been. We had so many gay friends around growing up that it never occurred to me that it was an issue. My parents did say that they'd rather I was straight because parents want their children to have a good life, and (especially at the time they were speaking) being homosexual could make life difficult.

I remember how astonished I was (as a child) when I first heard a serious argument, the implications of which were that many of my honorary uncles were apparently doomed to hellfire, a position not preached in my church, which generally taught on more pressing international issues, such as the obligation to work for justice and alleviate suffering, etcetera. As a result, I tend to regard extended public debate, and indeed, extended speaking from the pulpit in this regard an active distraction from our primary duties as Christians, in over-focusing on something that just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, using a convenient group to blame and hate, for no reason than to spotlight our own supposed holiness.

There are so many other things condemned in the scripture these same people aren't yammering on about. It's just extraordinary to pick this one thing and make it such a huge issue.

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm


Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
amen laura. i've never understood it either. it always seemed such an odd thing to care about. why would anyone care who someone else was having sex with, as long as it was consensual??? and yet, some people seem to absolutly fixate on it, as though its the most important thing in their religion... the "godhatesfags.com" bunch (deliberatly not a link), for instance. thats the major focus of their faith? good grief. so pathetic.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
As for 'other half' ... I really dislike the implications ...

As well (oh dear, this is going to freak some people out) as implying that the relationship is limited to two.

I wouldn't describe my doulos David as my "other half" (though I don't think I'd call him my "partner" either) partly because he's not the only doulos in my life, though he is (at present) the most committed one.

I know some people, too, who are partners and yet are no longer lovers as such, and seem relatively content with their (sexually open) relationship.

This is probably going to confuse, baffle, and/or disturb some people...

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity


Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[guilt]
Enough to kill the thread... and it was going along pretty well, too...
[/guilt]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
blackbird
Shipmate
# 1387

 - Posted      Profile for blackbird     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
it must be the multiple partners that have silenced us. maybe there needs to be a new thread to discuss that angle...don't look at me.
Posts: 1236 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Quinine
Shipmate
# 1668

 - Posted      Profile for Quinine   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, no, don't feel bad, Chastmastr!

Myself, I was just thinking I'd leave this thread alone now because I've pretty much said anything even semi-original I have to say, and was worrying that people might think I was unhealthily obsessed with homosexuality issues/sex/the conduct of this thread if I didn't go and post elsewhere!

Or that I might indeed become so, given time...

I must have a chat with you about C.S. Lewis (on another thread) at some point instead.

Yours affirmatively

Elaine


Posts: 252 | From: In a fen | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

 - Posted      Profile for Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Email Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Open relationships and all that's not particular to homosexuality - maybe it could go into the sex thread that's swanning around somewhere...

Getting back on topic, some good news from me on this whole subject. I had a visit from my parents (first time of seeing my mother since I'd told her I was gay), and not only did we end up going out for a meal in Soho (gay village bit of central London) but also mother told me she'd come a long way in her thinking, and now she hoped I would find someone to be with and she wanted me to be happy!!!!!! If you heard a distant thud on Friday night that was the sound of my jaw hitting the floor . It's nice not having the oppression of having to ignore her opinion, and I'm impressed with the amount of thinking she's obviously done.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Quinine
Shipmate
# 1668

 - Posted      Profile for Quinine   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Joan - hurrah and ((hugs)).
Posts: 252 | From: In a fen | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  92  93  94 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools