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Source: (consider it) Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
Laura
General nuisance
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And you haven't accounted for lesbians at all.

Nobody cares about lesbianism nearly as much as men buggering each other. Even the Orthodox Jews can't quite decide whether it's forbidden as male gay relations clearly are. See. e.g., Judaism 101 - Kosher Sex:

quote:
Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah.


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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
You won't be surprised that I won't assume the theory is true. I know gay men who did receive strong male affirmation when they were children. Their fathers loved them and gave them plenty of emotional support, and yet they're gay. Each of them finds that sex with the man he's in love with is deeply fulfilling. And you haven't accounted for lesbians at all.

Well, many other gay men say this theory resonates remarkably with their life, and accounts for their relationship (or lack of) with their father, and a sense of inadequacy. However, as I said I was mainly responding to the assertion that there could be no good reason for God to state Homosexual sex is sinful - if this theory is right then there is a good reason.

quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Frankly, I like opponents of gay sexuality much better when they're just laying their cards on the table, e.g., "It's bad because the way I read the Bible, the Bible says it's bad. It doesn't matter how that makes gay people feel. It's just bad." Using unsupported quasi-socio-Freudian twaddle in support of your argument is no support at all.

Happy to oblidge. That theory is not the reason I believe that gay sex is sinful. I take the Bible as the sole reason for saying all sex outside marriage is sinful. However, the theory may just give us one reason why the Bible says so...

[ 22. November 2004, 20:21: Message edited by: Fish Fish ]

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Adeodatus
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It really is pointless, as I've said all along. We believe in different Gods. I'd be happy to leave the "anti" brigade to it, if it weren't for the needless suffering they cause.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And you haven't accounted for lesbians at all.

Nobody cares about lesbianism nearly as much as men buggering each other. Even the Orthodox Jews can't quite decide whether it's forbidden as male gay relations clearly are. See. e.g., Judaism 101 - Kosher Sex:

quote:
Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. *snip*

I fear that, last year, when the incumbent at Saint Vartan's had treated us to a forty-minute (!!! at the 8 am Mass!!! [Mad] ) sermon on Leviticus 21 and the eternal applicability of the moral (not ritual) Mosaic law, my only response to him on the way out (well... a letter to him later, but that's another story) was to note that "Leviticus let the dykes off scot free, vicar."

"Ah," he replied, "it is by implication." I riposted right back (and this, dear shipmates, is before my morning cafe con leche y brandy) that this was only so if the Magisterium said so, as does J2P2 and the Fathers. Sadly, I sympathized, Scriptura Sola likely left him without a leg to stand on.

By this time, I needed to beat a speedy retreat, as Sunday morning buses to my stretch of town ran as infrequently as does the springtime dogsled run to Povungnituk, and I let him attend to the other steaming-at-the-long-sermon parishioners.

In a vaguely related way, I have noticed that there are two married lesbian couples whose clerical members still retain their licence to officiate, but that the only similar male married couples have had the priestly partner's licence lifted indefinitely.

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Fish Fish
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Sadly, I sympathized, Scriptura Sola likely left him without a leg to stand on.

Sorry, but lesbian sex is also said to be sinful in scripture:

"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Romans 1

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
.What is the nature of this particular revelation of God? What do we learn about God from a ban on gay sex?
That knowing him is better than sex.
Sorry, but I think this argument is weak.

Why gay sex specifically? Why not hetero sex or anything else, for that matter?

Which means we are back at the start of the circle with you saying "I don't accept it because I can't see a reason for it."
I don't know why it isn't all sex, but I am willing to accept things I don't understand the reasons for.

ETA: I personally don't go for the lack of affirmation by the Father argument. Aside from anything else it makes fathers who have done a great job feel like scapegoats.

[ 23. November 2004, 08:16: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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Fishfish, why does this subject matter to you so much? Out of your last 50 posts, only 4 have been in threads that weren't about homosexuality.

Personally, I think you may have a bit of a crusade going on here. You take no notice of the love and commitment those of us who are lesbian or gay express towards our partners. You take no notice of the good we might do in our lives. You make sweeping generalisations based on shoddy science. In short, you're living in a box that shows you only what you want to see.

Those of us who are queer have more experience of seeing the "other side" than you could possibly imagine, sometimes in incredibly painful and demeaning situations like church courts. You don't show any signs of seeing our side at all: rather you stick to your theories and texts and ex-gay quotes. There are happy, hard working, Godly non-celibate lesbians and gay men in the world, a surprising number of them. And if we are in sin, well, we'll wait for God to sort that out, but I think you're wrong. Utterly wrong.

As Adeodatus said, we don't share the same God.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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Adeodatus
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Fish Fish quotes Paul as saying
quote:
Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
I think it's only a matter of time before the original manuscript is found, restoring the end of that sentence -
quote:
Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones involving chocolate cheesecake, and watching reruns of chickflicks.
See? It's not about lesbians at all.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
.What is the nature of this particular revelation of God? What do we learn about God from a ban on gay sex?
That knowing him is better than sex.
Sorry, but I think this argument is weak.

Why gay sex specifically? Why not hetero sex or anything else, for that matter?

Which means we are back at the start of the circle with you saying "I don't accept it because I can't see a reason for it."
I don't know why it isn't all sex, but I am willing to accept things I don't understand the reasons for.

Then you appear, if you'll forgive me putting words in your mouth, to be conceding that you don't know the reason that God hates gay sex, so it's not fair of you to say that you believe the apparent ban is there because it shows us something about God.

Then you fall back on the argument that your interpretation of the Bible says it's true so you believe it, which is fair enough given your tradition. But, as you pointed out earlier, you will never convince someone from a different tradition who both believes in the authority of the Bible and has come to a different conclusion, unless you present a reasonable argument as to why this is so (from scripture, if you can).

quote:
ETA: I personally don't go for the lack of affirmation by the Father argument. Aside from anything else it makes fathers who have done a great job feel like scapegoats.
I agree with your assessment, because of the lack of proof. But it seems to me (for what very little that's worth) that the anti- side of this debate will have to come up with some sort of rational argument and at least this is an attempt (thanks FF).

Any chance of an answer on the question of why so many cons evos would apparently prefer to have a lot of gay not-Christians than a lot of gay Christians, given that faith in Christ rather than sexual activity is the single criterion for salvation? I realise I'm asking you to represent a whole tradition here and I'm being unfair, but in my experience your answers are always well worth reading (even if they often fail to convince me [Biased] )

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Then you appear, if you'll forgive me putting words in your mouth, to be conceding that you don't know the reason that God hates gay sex, so it's not fair of you to say that you believe the apparent ban is there because it shows us something about God.

Quite. But if you remember the root of the discussion was about you saying the reason you felt sympathy for the "pro gay" argument is because you can't see any good reason for God to ban such a thing. And I was merely saying that God glorifies himself in our lives through many things we don't understand.

To us it seems and feels desperately unfair that some people have to demonstrate this in ways others don't, but I think, were this not such an emotive issue, that in other areas we just take that for granted.

Anyway, I wasn't saying I know why the ban is there, I was saying even though I don't know why it's there that it's not a good enough reason to dispense with it in my view.


quote:


Any chance of an answer on the question of why so many cons evos would apparently prefer to have a lot of gay not-Christians than a lot of gay Christians, given that faith in Christ rather than sexual activity is the single criterion for salvation? I realise I'm asking you to represent a whole tradition here and I'm being unfair, but in my experience your answers are always well worth reading (even if they often fail to convince me [Biased] )

You are kind. [Hot and Hormonal]
Although I must say this is pretty controversial stuff for anyone who's not CE, so...sorry for those people who are about to be offended.

Saving faith leads to lifestyle change. It evidences itself in a repentant lifestyle, therefore , on a CE view, a faith that does not display this lifestyle is not saving.

Furthermore, ISTM, the Bible teaches that sin has an effect on us, hardening us against God. So the reason that many CE's are so wound up about this issue is not because of their gag reflex as some would suggest, but because they believe this is likely to lead to the person hardening their heart against God altogether.

This touches on 8 million other Calvinism/Arminianism issues too, but that's my starter for one.

[ 23. November 2004, 10:56: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]

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GreyFace
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Thanks for that Lep. You almost seem to be arguing that faith and works are in fact not really separable, and that what we choose to do affects, as well as is affected by, what we believe. That we can choose to refuse grace.

I'm with you all the way on that, but it's not very Calvinist if you don't mind me saying (and I don't mean this to be insulting to you, or to Calvinists).

What do you make, from this perspective, of the argument that stable same-sex unions are far less likely to lead a person away from God, than the extreme of an endless cycle of guilt-ridden commitment-free secretive one night stands, if a gay person isn't given the gift of ability to follow the path of celibacy? Or do you believe that all gay people are given that gift? I suspect the evidence is rather against that.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
it's not very Calvinist .

Whyever not? Calvinism would hold that our salvation is secured by God's power, not by our own. And also that our eternal state is predestined by God from before creation.

But that doesn't mean that either our beliefs or our actions are uncaused.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
That knowing him is better than sex.

Knowing God is better than a salad sandwich as well, but if you are hungry you will eat the sandwich. And if you are really hungry you won't be able to think about God, or anything else much, until you have eaten.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Whyever not? Calvinism would hold that our salvation is secured by God's power, not by our own.

So would any version of Christianity.

quote:
And also that our eternal state is predestined by God from before creation.


Ditto (questions of what before creation means aside) - from omnipotence, but I thought, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Calvinism held that our freely willed choices had no part to play. I know you're a Universalist so you're somewhat exempt from the problems this causes.

quote:
But that doesn't mean that either our beliefs or our actions are uncaused.
Are they caused by ourselves then, or by God? Can I choose to sin? And if I can choose to sin, can I choose actions that ultimately separate me from God (I know you're a Universalist but I mean from a more general Calvinist viewpoint)?

If I can so choose, then I can refuse grace, and the fourth letter of the word tulip is looking distinctly transparent. If I can't, then it doesn't make a gnat's testicle of difference to my eternal state who I sleep with. Have I misunderstood Calvinism? I must have, or Lep's post makes no sense, but I don't see where.

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Sadly, I sympathized, Scriptura Sola likely left him without a leg to stand on.

Sorry, but lesbian sex is also said to be sinful in scripture:

"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Romans 1

Once again, this is your importation into an unclear text of lesbianism. Scholars have argued for years about what this means, but you apparently have God's ear on this issue.
(And, as an additional point, you can hardly be surprised that a Jewish website isn't citing Romans for authority. )

I'm just staggered that Arabella and Adeodatus have the energy to keep on with this and stay in the church.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
That knowing him is better than sex.

Knowing God is better than a salad sandwich as well, but if you are hungry you will eat the sandwich.
[Killing me]

What about the instruction from Our Lord that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit or a bad tree good fruit? I can think of all of the long-term gay couples I know; they are unusually active in community and charity, many are raising well-behaved children. Their fruits are good, by any standard. Yet, as Arabella noted, some seem to be saying that this one thing is so offensive in God's eyes that we may disregard the evidence that would, if it came from a "normal" couple be taken as signs of God's grace. Like the theory that God put fossils that carbon date back millions of years in the ground to tempt our faith, this goes against the core teachings of the God I have been taught to Love, and whose Spirit I feel in friends, no matter what their orientation.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
That knowing him is better than sex.

Knowing God is better than a salad sandwich as well, but if you are hungry you will eat the sandwich. And if you are really hungry you won't be able to think about God, or anything else much, until you have eaten.
And yet, God still asks you to trust and obey him even if eating the sandwich is forbidden.

I'm glad you find the whole topic so amusing by the way.


Grey Face - I don't accept that those are the only two options. People live with celibacy, and I don't think anyone needs a "calling" to it. But we've been through this before. (at least I have, I can't remember if it was with you.)

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I'm glad you find the whole topic so amusing by the way.

What does that mean?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Ethne Alba
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Ok....what do I know about this?
So maybe I shouldn't be here at all?
Heck, I'm here:

Surely if someone has a calling to celibacy then they know about it???????????
Surely the almighty can be clear about these things?
But if someone hasn't got a call to celibacy then what?

I can't remember, EVER, anyone telling a hetrosexual person they couldn't be loved and cared for in an intimate way.

Why am I hearing people say that a homosexual person can't be loved and cared for in an intimate way?

Don't get me wrong( before everyone who is gay and yet called to a single and celebate lifestyle SHOUTS at me) You wannna be celebate that's fine.God's asked it of you, that's fine.
But please wait a little before you stridently demand it of everyone else.

And if, like me, you are hetrosexual........well if I were gay I wouldn't be listening to half of this.

Why? Because we can have our cake and eat it.

AND there's no clear answer yet to why some groups of people appear to want Non christian homosexuals and not Christian homosexuals.Could it be because deep down the very option is a nonstarter to you?

(rant)

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Surely if someone has a calling to celibacy then they know about it???????????
Surely the almighty can be clear about these things?
But if someone hasn't got a call to celibacy then what?

Some people will say that the "call" can be circumstantial and it doesn't have to be something you are happy with.

quote:

I can't remember, EVER, anyone telling a hetrosexual person they couldn't be loved and cared for in an intimate way.

I can. Lots of times. I have half a dozen books on my shelf telling me that I can never get married or have sex.

I'm divorced. My ex-wife is married to another man and they have a kid (a lovely little girl actually)

The official position of the Roman Catholic church, and about half the Protestant churches, is that I cannot marry anyone else but her while she lives. And can't have sexual relationships with anyone else either.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Calypso
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# 3692

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I've been reading this thread with interest although I feel a little distanced from the present argument I was wondering what other christians thought of this as the only christian friend I've discussed this with thinks I'm disturbing.

See, I guess one could say I am gay; I am attracted to and am interested in relationships only with members of the same gender however I have an intense dislike of physical intimacy and a complete lack of interest in sex so my ideal relationship would be a non-sexual romantic relationship with another woman. I don't think any gay relationship sexual or not is wrong but a friend of mine who is a bit more conservative thinks that both of these situations are equally "icky".

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
What about the instruction from Our Lord that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit or a bad tree good fruit?

Here's a little bad fruit from the anti-gay brigade:

The church where I work employs two young women to staff its after-school homework program for the kids in the neighborhood, one to run it and one to assist. Both have been working since the beginning of the school year in September. The one in charge just quit. The reason? This church welcomes gay people into its membership and is affirming of gay people's loving, committed relationships, and the pastor at her Church of God in Christ congregation has advised her that it isn't right for her to associate with the likes of us.

The church has a child protection policy that requires two adults to be present for all events with children. So until other arrangements can be made, the only homework program for children in this needy neighborhood is having to be suspended because of this woman's and her pastor's bigotry.

You can post all day long about loving the sinner and hating the sin and about the sacrifices God requires of us, but to me this sort of idiocy is where it all ends.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:

As Adeodatus said, we don't share the same God.

I have been thinking about this phrase all afternoon. If true, then there is no hope for reconcilliation between us, no hope for the church and no hope for the world.

I appreciate that few are going to listen given that it is me saying it (and tbh, I don't know if I would listen to me if I were you), but maybe we all need to stand back and take some time out to consider the kind of world where 'my' god agrees with me and 'yours' is false.

'My' god is far bigger than I can comprehend and, I suspect, far more than my little theology can explain. I hope he is big enough for all of us, even when we find it hard to live with each other.

[/sanctimonious drivel]

C

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arse

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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Cheesy, your God might be bigger than all of us, and certainly I can't disagree with you there, but your church is certainly too small to allow the likes of me to be part of it. And as long as churches exclude people like me, simply because of our sexuality, then they demonstrate that their God is limited.

That's reality for me. I literally have no church I can go to in the city I live in, because the super-liberal minister of the one liberal church doesn't believe that God is real, and the other churches won't have me because I'm a lesbian.

The God I know and love is big enough for me to have sat through church meetings being pilloried by other church members in the hope that I might help them towards a more loving language. The God Fishfish, Lep and you talk about is the one who makes it possible for the denomination I used to belong to to vote gay and lesbian people out of leadership. That doesn't demonstrate that God is bigger than all of us, it demonstrates that many people think that a really tiny minority of people in the Church are beyond the love of God. Or so my partner and I have been told on several occasions. The number of queers left in the church is so tiny that I wonder what drives the church to treat us as though we were a 90% majority.

Now, I happen to believe that no one is beyond the love of God. And every time some church is reported excluding gay and lesbian people the church as a whole loses credibility in the non-church world. I work in the world and I hear anti-church comments all the time. I used to defend the church. Gay and lesbian Christians have spectacular opportunities for evangelism, since hardly anyone believes that any queer person would choose to be a Christian. And, speaking as someone who is no longer a church goer, but still identifies as Christian, I can understand why.

This isn't just a philosophical position for me, its my life. When Fishfish and Lep spout their stuff, they are driving me that little bit more away from the church. They may say "love the sinner," and God knows how I do my best to love them, but I don't feel loved. Pure and simple. I feel as though I've been made into some sort of idol to be smashed. Homosexuality is more important than loving God according to Fishfish and Lep. Loving God has always been more important than my sex life to me, and I'm not going to give up either one.

Sorry to rant, but I have been on the verge of leaving the Ship completely over this stuff just recently. I get so sick of people writing as though I am some sort of morally deficient sub-human. I try so hard not to retaliate, but it doesn't seem to matter what I write, because it is written by me, it is assumed to be pure sin by some folks.

[ 23. November 2004, 22:24: Message edited by: Arabella Purity Winterbottom ]

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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ChristinaMarie
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Arabella!

Amen.

[Overused] [Angel] [Overused]

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Calypso
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Arabella, I don't post much here but I read a lot and I very much appreciate your contributions [Overused] .
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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quote:
Originally posted by Calypso:
See, I guess one could say I am gay; I am attracted to and am interested in relationships only with members of the same gender however I have an intense dislike of physical intimacy and a complete lack of interest in sex so my ideal relationship would be a non-sexual romantic relationship with another woman. I don't think any gay relationship sexual or not is wrong but a friend of mine who is a bit more conservative thinks that both of these situations are equally "icky".

Calypso, you'd be in a fine literary tradition of what are called "romantic friends" should you find another woman who felt the same way. Nothing icky at all.

The jury is out on people like Eleanor Roosevelt and Emily Dickinson. All we have is their writings, but they both had very very close relationships with other women which may or may not have been sexual. I'm not one of those lesbians who feels they have to have been at it like bunnies so we can reclaim the lost sisters of the past. They were relationships which sustained them.

And actually, for all the church worries about lesbians and gay men having sex everywhere all the time, there is this thing called "lesbian bed death". More couples than you might imagine are really romantic friends. But the church has a fertile imagination. [Snigger]

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
And actually, for all the church worries about lesbians and gay men having sex everywhere all the time, there is this thing called "lesbian bed death".

Sounds like an infection. [Eek!]

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mr cheesy
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Arabella, I understand (to a very limited extent) your pain. I cannot deny that you have been terribly hurt and traumatised by the church.

But the thing is that I cannot accept the god you are offering any more than the one that Lep and FS are offering.

Please don't leave. We need to hear the pain of each other.

C

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arse

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mr cheesy
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(btw my original comment was addressed to both 'sides' and all of us)

C

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arse

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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But that's just it, I'm not "offering" any god. God is, and God is, as you pointed out before, bigger than all of us. Whatever we say about God doesn't touch the reality.

So if my homosexuality is more important to you than anything else about me, and because of that you exclude me from your church then what message are you sending about God? That God is bigger but not that big? That God isn't big enough to deal with a really committed believer who is gay? No, what you're saying is that the church isn't.

All I want is to be able to serve. Just as I am. I would have preferred that to be in a church setting, but that isn't possible. So God makes use of me out in the world. I believe that the Holy Spirit leads me in the work I do. If the church would prefer to say that the devil makes me work with prisoners, women and children living with domestic violence, and the schoolchildren we help with their English, then the church is even more twisted than I can conceive of.

I have been told, more than once, that nothing I do could display the fruits of the Spirit. What kind of message does that send to the people I work with? That they are being damaged by me?

I am a pretty strong person. Not many Christians have to defend their faith as strongly as queer Christians do in the face of devastating opposition. I've said it before on these boards, but do you heterosexual people who take potshots at our tiny minority ever stop to think about what it would be like if it were you? What it would be like to have to stay dignified and polite when others are calling you less human than a pig? Do you really think that people sound loving and Christian when that kind of stuff comes out of their mouths?

Unfortunately, I now assume that most people who are anti-gay are in this state of mind underneath it all. Disgust seems to rule them, that and their fantasies of what we do in bed. Certainly they seem to get a great deal more worked up about it than I ever have.

I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion. My mission is with people who are in need - real need - not with people who don't think I should be allowed any sort of mission. That's what really angers me - the work I could have been doing over the years and wasn't able to. Well, now I'm doing it, independent of the church, and I'm sure that God blesses it, as God blesses any work which helps the prisoner, widow and orphan. Whoever does it.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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mr cheesy
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I'm not going to respond in kind, Arabella, because I don't believe the things you have labelled me with.

All I was pointing out was that if someone says 'You and I believe in different gods' then there was a choice to be made between them. And if you are saying I have to chose between your God and Lep's, then I chose neither.

I'm going to stop now as I don't think you are able to hear what I am saying.

C

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arse

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Karin 3
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I don't know what to say. [Roll Eyes] Why should anyone have a problem with women wanting close non-sexual relationships with other women? In my book this does not necessarily mean the woman is a lesbian, even if she doesn't want a sexual relationship with any man. Is everyone getting too obsessed with sexuallity, perhaps?

As far as I am concerned our God is a truly inclusive God and it is his followers who exclude people because of their own inadequacies and their own inability to accpet those who are different from themselves. I hope they will pray that God will help them become more accepting, meanwhile I shall ask God to help all those who follow him (myself included) to be able to love and accept others as he did. [Votive]

That would be such a witness to the power of God's love!

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Fish Fish
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# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Fishfish, why does this subject matter to you so much? Out of your last 50 posts, only 4 have been in threads that weren't about homosexuality.

Personally, I think you may have a bit of a crusade going on here. You take no notice of the love and commitment those of us who are lesbian or gay express towards our partners. You take no notice of the good we might do in our lives. You make sweeping generalisations based on shoddy science. In short, you're living in a box that shows you only what you want to see.

No, I'm not on a crusade. It seems to me this is the hot topic for the church today, and one I need to get to grips with. And of course I recognise the love of gay couples, and the hurt and pain this whole issue causes. And I hate that. But I also see what the Bible teaches, and so am constantly trying to walk the tightrope between love and truth. I think boards such as this are prone to misunderstanding, and poor communication - so I appologise for when I have not been loving or it seems I am not listening. [Hot and Hormonal]

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Fish Fish quotes Paul as saying
quote:
Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
I think it's only a matter of time before the original manuscript is found, restoring the end of that sentence -
quote:
Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones involving chocolate cheesecake, and watching reruns of chickflicks.
See? It's not about lesbians at all.

Thank you - amazing stuff! I had no idea of the origional context. I can't believe how wrong I was!! [Biased] [Yipee]

quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
ETA: I personally don't go for the lack of affirmation by the Father argument. Aside from anything else it makes fathers who have done a great job feel like scapegoats.

Lep - of course that is a danger. We must forgive where others have hurt us in some way. But the danger of wrong application shouldn't negate the theory. There are plenty of gay people who would acknowledge issues of self esteem and affirmation are intimately linked with their sexual desires. I know its not popular, and I know I'll get shouted down for saying so. But when gay men I know say this is true in their experience, then its a point of view that should be heard.

But again I'll say I was merely posting it as one posible reason why God forbids gay sex.

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Karin 3
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Fish Fish, I don't think the Bible is so clear about the issue. Please read this article giving views on both sides of the gay Christian debate http://www.surefish.co.uk/faith/features/110703_gay_yesorno.htm

Bear in mind that both viewpoints are based on what Christians think the Bible says.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Fish Fish
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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Fish Fish, I don't think the Bible is so clear about the issue. Please read this article giving views on both sides of the gay Christian debate http://www.surefish.co.uk/faith/features/
110703_gay_yesorno.htm

Bear in mind that both viewpoints are based on what Christians think the Bible says.

Of course, Karin, there is disagreement on what the Bible says, and on each of the verses. But as I've said before
  • It would be easier in life to accept the Bible does not condemn homosexual relationships.
  • Despite that desire, and the explanations of the texts, I find the arguments totally unconvincing.
  • The arguments try and explain away the negative arguments against homosexuality in the Bible. But unless I can see one clear verse where God says "I delight in same sex relationships" as people keep saying he does, then I can not accept that he does. And I keep waiting for that verse.

[edited to try to resolve broken scroll lock]

[ 24. November 2004, 20:26: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
[/qb]

No, I'm not on a crusade. It seems to me this is the hot topic for the church today, and one I need to get to grips with. [/QUOTE]

The hot topic? [Eek!]

Why?

Assuming, for the moment, you mean "the hot topic after the really important Christian things like worship, and prayer, and evangelism, and salvation, and knowing God, and personal holiness (i.e. our own, not the bloke in the next pew's), and the Great Commision and saving the world, not to mention Faith, Hope, and Charity", assuming that, why should it be more important than any other of dozens of things we need to come to grips with?

Even if we limit it to "contemporary" issues (most of which have always been with us of course) I'm not sure I'd even put it in the top ten. Certainly it has to come below the churches moral compromise with non-Christian and a-Christian states and governments, our reluctance to criticise warmongers, oppressors, and exploiters.

And in a purely "religious" sense its nowhere near as important to the continuation of the Church on earth as our resistance to secular agnosticism, materialism, extreme arealist liberalism, and probably our biggest enemy which is still that old -age Gnostic heresy which never qutie goes away.
And of course our relations or lack of them with other "religions" like Mormons or Muslims.

Ans then there are poverty, disease, crime, hunger, loneliness, racism, homelessness, famine, depression, fear...

Making it the number one issue is a bit like worrying about what your next-door neighbours are getting up to in bed when you can see an armed burglar breaking in through their back door.

And your own house is on fire.

And the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are mounting up at the top of the street.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Karin 3
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# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Fish Fish, I don't think the Bible is so clear about the issue. Please read this article giving views on both sides of the gay Christian debate http://www.surefish.co.uk/faith/features/
110703_gay_yesorno.htm

Bear in mind that both viewpoints are based on what Christians think the Bible says.

Of course, Karin, there is disagreement on what the Bible says, and on each of the verses. But as I've said before
  • It would be easier in life to accept the Bible does not condemn homosexual relationships.
  • Despite that desire, and the explanations of the texts, I find the arguments totally unconvincing.
  • The arguments try and explain away the negative arguments against homosexuality in the Bible. But unless I can see one clear verse where God says "I delight in same sex relationships" as people keep saying he does, then I can not accept that he does. And I keep waiting for that verse.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Fish Fish. I think God delights in all truly loving relationships and that Jesus made that pretty clear. [Smile]

Jesus also put great importance on healing wounds and on comforting the broken-hearted, not to mention loving our neighbour. This suggests to me that we should tread very carefully lest we wound others and cause them deep hurts as we express our certainty about what the Bible says. We must not forget that homosexual men and women are our neighbours and we are to love them as we love ourselves.

[edited to try to resplve broken scroll lock]

[ 24. November 2004, 20:29: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Fish Fish
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Assuming, for the moment, you mean "the hot topic after the really important Christian things like worship, and prayer, and evangelism, and salvation, and knowing God, and personal holiness (i.e. our own, not the bloke in the next pew's), and the Great Commision and saving the world, not to mention Faith, Hope, and Charity", assuming that, why should it be more important than any other of dozens of things we need to come to grips with?

Of course. By hot topic, I mean hot topic for debate. The hot topic could easily blow the church apart.

I didn't want it to be the hot topic in our generation. I would much rather talk about evangelism and Jesus etc. I am happy with the church's 2 millenia of teaching on this subject. But its become the hot topic by those who want to change the church. So while homosexal sex is not the hot topic of my choice, I feel those of us who hold to Biblical Christianity must defend it when it is attacked.

So by all means, lets accept what the Bible says and get back to evangelism!

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Louise
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quote:
There are plenty of gay people who would acknowledge issues of self esteem and affirmation are intimately linked with their sexual desires. I know its not popular, and I know I'll get shouted down for saying so. But when gay men I know say this is true in their experience, then its a point of view that should be heard.
I've interviewed professors of psychology who've worked with people who report alien abduction as the cause of their their psychological issues - do you think that's true too, because a few people report it?

I also know plenty heterosexuals with problems about their sexuality and low self-esteem. Obviously inadequate parenting has caused them to be heterosexual. Or alternatively what ever your sexuality, having grown up in negative circumstances may give you negative feelings about it. There is no evidence to support the view that parenting determines sexual orientation and I challenge you to provide objective studies which validate this instead of taking a few anecdotal self-reports and building a theory out of it - but of course that's how psychoanalyis works and that's why so little of it stands up today. (Laura was quite right to point out to you that this stuff comes from Freud)

If you are so fond of applying this Freudian nonsense to others, Fish Fish - how do you like having Freudian rubbish applied to people like you?

Freud and his followers were also the originators of the theory that antipathy to homosexuality stems from people repressing their own homosexual desires as bad and then 'projecting' their self-hatred onto people who are gay.

Thus Freudians not only repeat rubbish about how male homosexuality can be caused by 'absent fathers' but many would also claim that obsessive purveyors of anti-gay views are clearly in need of hours on the couch to come to terms with their inner repressed homosexual desires. It's funny how you embrace the theory they'd apply to gay people and not the theory they'd apply to people like you. Of course if you rejected their theory they'd tell you you're 'in denial'.

Please stop applying this pseudoscience to others unless you'd like it to be applied to you.

L

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Fish Fish
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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
I've interviewed professors of psychology who've worked with people who report alien abduction as the cause of their their psychological issues - do you think that's true too, because a few people report it?

Well, I'm no expert. I'm not setting myself up to be an expert. Here's one article that explains better what I mean -

http://www.truefreedomtrust.co.uk/testimonies/005.html


quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Freud and his followers were also the originators of the theory that antipathy to homosexuality stems from people repressing their own homosexual desires as bad and then 'projecting' their self-hatred onto people who are gay.

I don't mind what you read into my sexuality. I am single. As a single person, my sexuality is to one degree immaterial as I must accept God's call to be celibate today. So I am being consistent with all I say for other people, of whatever sexuality - sex outside marriage is wrong. That is what I must contend with today as I face my urges and desires as I walk round Sainsbury's and want to have sex. With whom is immaterial to the struggle for holiness and to be honouring to God.

[edited to try to resolve scroll lock break]

[ 24. November 2004, 20:16: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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Fish Fish
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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Jesus also put great importance on healing wounds and on comforting the broken-hearted, not to mention loving our neighbour. This suggests to me that we should tread very carefully lest we wound others and cause them deep hurts as we express our certainty about what the Bible says. We must not forget that homosexual men and women are our neighbours and we are to love them as we love ourselves.

I totally agree. But as has been said many times here before - loving people does not always mean patting them on the back and saying everything is fine. Sometimes loving people involves challenge and rebuke. And doesn't Jesus do both?

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Scholar Gypsy
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quote:
There are plenty of gay people who would acknowledge issues of self esteem and affirmation are intimately linked with their sexual desires. I know its not popular, and I know I'll get shouted down for saying so. But when gay men I know say this is true in their experience, then its a point of view that should be heard.
I know plenty of straight people who would acknowledge that issues of self esteem and affirmation are intimately linked with their sexual desires. What does this prove?

[ 24. November 2004, 12:29: Message edited by: xSx ]

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Jesus also put great importance on healing wounds and on comforting the broken-hearted, not to mention loving our neighbour. This suggests to me that we should tread very carefully lest we wound others and cause them deep hurts as we express our certainty about what the Bible says. We must not forget that homosexual men and women are our neighbours and we are to love them as we love ourselves.

I totally agree. But as has been said many times here before - loving people does not always mean patting them on the back and saying everything is fine. Sometimes loving people involves challenge and rebuke. And doesn't Jesus do both?
Jesus did, yes. And only He knew when to do the one and when to do the other. We don't. In the much cited incident of the woman taken in adultery, people have focused on the wrong thing, in my opinion. Jesus told those with the moral and legal authority to condemn and punish the woman, whose sin was admitted, that they could only exercise that authority if they themselves were without sin. A bit constricting, but a rule that those eager to rebuke should take into account.

John

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Leprechaun

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# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:

This isn't just a philosophical position for me, its my life. When Fishfish and Lep spout their stuff, they are driving me that little bit more away from the church. They may say "love the sinner," and God knows how I do my best to love them, but I don't feel loved. Pure and simple. I feel as though I've been made into some sort of idol to be smashed. Homosexuality is more important than loving God according to Fishfish and Lep. Loving God has always been more important than my sex life to me, and I'm not going to give up either one.


"Spout their stuff?"

Arabella, I have done everything in my power to be respectful on this thread, and cannot recall saying anything negative about homosexual people at all.
To be honest, I can't think of any post that has made you or any other person into an "idol" to be "smashed" nor any occasion when anyone has addressed you as sub-human.

To be honest, I think the way you are talking to me (as if I am the person who has made decisions in your denomination or set up the churches in your town) is pretty manipulative. I would like to think I always do you the courtesy, at least, of responding to what you actually post, rather than how other people I know who are "like you" in some way have made me feel in the past.

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Karin 3
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# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Jesus also put great importance on healing wounds and on comforting the broken-hearted, not to mention loving our neighbour. This suggests to me that we should tread very carefully lest we wound others and cause them deep hurts as we express our certainty about what the Bible says. We must not forget that homosexual men and women are our neighbours and we are to love them as we love ourselves.

I totally agree. But as has been said many times here before - loving people does not always mean patting them on the back and saying everything is fine. Sometimes loving people involves challenge and rebuke. And doesn't Jesus do both?
The gospels do record Jesus rebuking people, but have you taken note of which people, for what reason and the manner of each rebuke? You may find it enlightening.

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Fish Fish
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# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Arabella, I have done everything in my power to be respectful on this thread, and cannot recall saying anything negative about homosexual people at all.
To be honest, I can't think of any post that has made you or any other person into an "idol" to be "smashed" nor any occasion when anyone has addressed you as sub-human.

Thanks for that Lep. I too am trying to do all I can to respect everyone who posts here.

Having said that...

quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
The gospels do record Jesus rebuking people, but have you taken note of which people, for what reason and the manner of each rebuke? You may find it enlightening.

That is just a tad patronising!

I've been in this debate before. It seems right to me that not only does Jesus rebuke and correct, but that the church is told to as well. But I don't feel a lot of joy at the prospect of going down that whole path again - espcially to be patronised! So I'll just leave it at that.

[ 24. November 2004, 14:46: Message edited by: Fish Fish ]

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
By hot topic, I mean hot topic for debate. The hot topic could easily blow the church apart.

Not even the powers of Hell can do that.

If you mean cause ructions in some denominations, and a few organisational splits, well, yes, but do do all sorts of other issues. They bureaucracy of denominations is not of the essence of the Church.

quote:

I didn't want it to be the hot topic in our generation. I would much rather talk about evangelism and Jesus etc.

Then by all means talk about Jesus instead.

quote:

But its become the hot topic by those who want to change the church.

Who? A few American bishops? Members of a small and shrinking faction in a medium-sized denomination that no-one else very much cares about?

Anyway, there are plenty of bigger attacks on the churches going on right now: anti-God liberal theologies; child-abusing priests and those who think all priests are like them; the attempted hijacking of the churches by right-wing politicos and acqueiscence in it by so-called liberals who want their own little clash of civilisations; Wahaabist Muslims who are convinced they are going to replace us in the next century; slopping tides of bullshit from post-Christian journalists who pretend to agree with them because they want the churches to be about nothing but choirboys, Christmas cards, and comforting ceremonies; vast quantities of handwaving New Age wibble about "spirituality"; and gigantic swells of apathy and mockery from the non-Christian majority.

quote:

So by all means, lets accept what the Bible says and get back to evangelism!

I don't remember where it is written that the Lord said "first persuade all the other Christians that your interpretation of the Scriptures is true, and THEN go out and make disciples of all nations"

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I don't remember where it is written that the Lord said "first persuade all the other Christians that your interpretation of the Scriptures is true, and THEN go out and make disciples of all nations"

If my interpretation of the Bible is wrong, then please show me that one verse that shows God delights in same sex sexual relationships. Until then I'll continue to assume I've understood it correctly, and defend Biblical Christianity from attacks within the church.

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
The gospels do record Jesus rebuking people, but have you taken note of which people, for what reason and the manner of each rebuke? You may find it enlightening.

That is just a tad patronising!

I've been in this debate before. It seems right to me that not only does Jesus rebuke and correct, but that the church is told to as well. But I don't feel a lot of joy at the prospect of going down that whole path again - espcially to be patronised! So I'll just leave it at that.

I'm sorry you find it patronising. It is very sad that your mind seems to be closed on this matter. I had hoped this was not the case. [Tear]

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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