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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Ken ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) .
I see 'Biblical Christianity' has acquired capital letters. Interesting.
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insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
If my interpretation of the Bible is wrong, then please show me that one verse that shows God delights in same sex sexual relationships.
I can't. So what? Why do you keep going on about it?
Can you show me one verse where it shows that God approves of lending money at interest?
Do you allow bankers to be ministers in your church? Do you require them to renounce publically the sin of usury?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fish Fish:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Karin 3:
[qb] It is very sad that your mind seems to be closed on this matter. I had hoped this was not the case. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Nope - just feel tired by the debate of whether the church should ever rebuke or correct people.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I can't. So what? Why do you keep going on about it?
Because we are being told that God delights in something scripture never even hints he delights in, and also says in sinful. Alarm bells should ring.
And yes, in trying to be consistant, I would teach that usury is also sinful.
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
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Pegasus*
Shipmate
# 5779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
But unless I can see one clear verse where God says "I delight in same sex relationships" as people keep saying he does, then I can not accept that he does. And I keep waiting for that verse.
I admit that my Biblical knowledge is not very good at all, but I can't think of any verse where the Lord spake unto Moses and said unto him "I delight in single sex relationships". So you're asking for a parallel to something which doesn't really exist.
Posts: 533 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus:
quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
But unless I can see one clear verse where God says "I delight in same sex relationships" as people keep saying he does, then I can not accept that he does. And I keep waiting for that verse.
I admit that my Biblical knowledge is not very good at all, but I can't think of any verse where the Lord spake unto Moses and said unto him "I delight in single sex relationships". So you're asking for a parallel to something which doesn't really exist.
The whole thrust of the Bible is that marriage is a good thing, established by and blessed by God. So I am asking for a parallel which very much exists.
[ 24. November 2004, 16:26: Message edited by: Fish Fish ]
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
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Pegasus*
Shipmate
# 5779
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Posted
"The whole thrust of the Bible"? Isn't the Bible about a bit more than that?
Obviously, I'm not trying to say that the Bible condemns marriage, or thinks it a bad idea; that would be stupid*. My point is that just because you can't find a specific verse saying that a specific thing is right, it doesn't mean that that thing is wrong.
*Though I think the emphasis on marriage and "family values" as a Christian thing is a farily recent develpoment; think of medieval teachings about perpetual virginity as the best kind of life, and the way how, for women at least, "virtue" for so long meant "virginty". But that is another discussion, quite possible another dead horse.
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Not a Proper Christian™
Posts: 533 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Two points on recent contributions -
First, I think it's a bit of a derailment to talk in terms of God delighting in same-sex relationships. That's a question for a "gay marriage" thread. I don't care whether he delights in it - if he'll grudgingly put up with it, that's enough for me.
My second point is actually a rather unfair question, which anyone can shoot down in flames if they like. Here goes. Is this issue so urgent that to address it is worth the cost of a human life? The reason I ask is that every year, thousands of young gay people all over the world commit suicide because they can't take any more of the constant condemnation they're subjected to. So, to the "anti" brigade: would you be comfortable preaching your "gospel" if you knew that tonight it would be the last straw to a despairing kid, who would then be dead by tomorrow morning?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus:
My point is that just because you can't find a specific verse saying that a specific thing is right, it doesn't mean that that thing is wrong.
True - if that issue is never addressed at all.
My point is that every mention of homosexual activity in the Bible is negative, and not one mention is positive. To then say God delights in that sexual activity ignores both the lack of the positive and the presence of the negative.
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
Posts: 672 | Registered: Jan 2004
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
...second point is actually a rather unfair question, which anyone can shoot down in flames if they like. Here goes. Is this issue so urgent that to address it is worth the cost of a human life? ...
Such as that of Matthew Shepard -- who was there loving the sinner at Matthew's funeral?
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
My second point is actually a rather unfair question, which anyone can shoot down in flames if they like. Here goes. Is this issue so urgent that to address it is worth the cost of a human life? The reason I ask is that every year, thousands of young gay people all over the world commit suicide because they can't take any more of the constant condemnation they're subjected to. So, to the "anti" brigade: would you be comfortable preaching your "gospel" if you knew that tonight it would be the last straw to a despairing kid, who would then be dead by tomorrow morning?
I guess that was the debate we had here
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Adeodatus' question is emotional, but not unfair. There is some debate about the exact rate of suicide for gay teenagers, but it does seem to be higher than that for straight teens, and I don't think anyone can dispute that hatred and harassment can make being gay sheer hell for teenagers.
FishFish, all your discussion of the Bible does nothing more than create a climate of hatred for gay people. Yes, the Bible is always negative about gay people. It's also always negative about collecting interest on loans. So what?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that thread. Did it deal with what I was getting at? Yes and no. It largely dealt with pastoral situations in what are, for me, faraway places. I was thinking closer to home. For instance, a couple of weekends ago I was in a bar on Canal Street in Manchester (aka the Gay Village), and I saw a lad probably in his early 20s with a few friends. Then he reached for his drink, and as the sleeve of his jacket rode up, I saw the scars on his wrists....
I was actually asking the "anti" brigade here among us now - not in smalltown America - whether this issue is worth the cost of that young man's scars. Now if anyone asked me something similar, I'd rant endlessly about how it was an unfair question. But it just struck me that a depressed Christian teenager - vodka and pills in front of them - might google "homosexuality christianity" tonight and read this thread.............
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
FishFish, all your discussion of the Bible does nothing more than create a climate of hatred for gay people. Yes, the Bible is always negative about gay people. It's also always negative about collecting interest on loans. So what?
So what? Does the Bible not even hint at the mind of God?
As for the Bible creating a climate of hatred - I guess I come back to the tightrope - we need to hold together love and truth. You accuse me of not being loving - and I am sorry for when I've been crap. But your alternative is to abandon the Biblical truth on this issue. We need both love and truth. That's a tightrope to walk.
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I was actually asking the "anti" brigade here among us now - not in smalltown America - whether this issue is worth the cost of that young man's scars. Now if anyone asked me something similar, I'd rant endlessly about how it was an unfair question. But it just struck me that a depressed Christian teenager - vodka and pills in front of them - might google "homosexuality christianity" tonight and read this thread.............
Well, if he read the whole thread I hope it would be clear that God accepts people of whatever orientation by grace, at any time, in desperation or not.
To be fair - the issue of non-Christian youths who are bullied at school or whatever over this issue (and I would point out here that this type of homphobic bullying extends to all sorts of straight teenagers who's worst crime is hating sport and liking music and drama) I don't think has anything to do with the teaching of celibacy or marriage as legitimate lifestyle options for Christians today.
No doubt Christian views have influenced society at a deeper level, but the bullies who indulged in this type of thing at my school had rarely been near a church, and had certainly never set foot in a church that preached repentance and faith in Christ as the only way to be saved.
So really, while the situation in small town America may be different - I can't see any causal link between what my church teaches on this issue and homophobic hatred in society at large.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
But its not just homophobic hatred from secular society that can drive gay teens to suicide is it? From a Christian perspective surely the biggest thing we should be worrying about is the effect of church teaching on gay people who do identify as Christians. I was at one time a close friend of Simon Harvey, a young keen evangelical who struggled with his sexuality vis a vis the teaching he'd received, and eventually committed suicide. He was featured on a TV documentary called 'Better Dead than Gay?' - its really heart breaking when this happens to one whom you knew personally.
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Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
But its not just homophobic hatred from secular society that can drive gay teens to suicide is it? From a Christian perspective surely the biggest thing we should be worrying about is the effect of church teaching on gay people who do identify as Christians.
Well quite - and that was the discussion on the other thread. But I understood Ad to be asking a different question - about those outside the church. I thought.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
I can't see any causal link between what my church teaches on this issue and homophobic hatred in society at large.
There's a direct link. When schools try to tackle the problem of homophobic bullying or to teach in a postive way about gay people in sex education, conservative churches pop up and denounce them as 'pro gay'. This was a major part of the section 28 controversy. Teachers felt they couldn't address the issue of anti-gay bullying because they risked being accused of 'promoting homosexuality'. Conservative Christians were the most vocal critics of the repeal of this law. It's also interesting to note that during the campaign over Section 28 attacks on gay people increased. The Conservative Christians who wrote into newspapers and appeared on the media denouncing homosexuality (some of them in the most appalling terms which you almost never see here) alas, helped shape the public climate that encouraged that. People who wanted to make schools into safer more positive places for young gay people were fought tooth and nail by Brian Soutar and the Cardinal of Scotland - all in the name of Christianity.
FishFish I really don't care what your sexuality is - my point which you seem to have missed, is that these sorts of Freudian theories are bunk. Alas for you and Freud, there was no rise in homosexuality caused by thousands of children losing fathers in the first and second world wars and many mothers not having the opportunity to remarry. Nor are African Americans more likely to be gay despite a higher incidence of single parent families headed by a woman. Where researchers have tried to test these sort of Freudian theories scientifically the evidence does not support them. If you have any scientific evidence, then please provide it.
L
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
I can't see any causal link between what my church teaches on this issue and homophobic hatred in society at large.
There's a direct link. When schools try to tackle the problem of homophobic bullying or to teach in a postive way about gay people in sex education, conservative churches pop up and denounce them as 'pro gay'. This was a major part of the section 28 controversy. Teachers felt they couldn't address the issue of anti-gay bullying because they risked being accused of 'promoting homosexuality'. Conservative Christians were the most vocal critics of the repeal of this law. It's also interesting to note that during the campaign over Section 28 attacks on gay people increased. The Conservative Christians who wrote into newspapers and appeared on the media denouncing homosexuality (some of them in the most appalling terms which you almost never see here) alas, helped shape the public climate that encouraged that. People who wanted to make schools into safer more positive places for young gay people were fought tooth and nail by Brian Soutar and the Cardinal of Scotland - all in the name of Christianity.
Louise, I would be interested to see some evidence of this increase in this period (or did you just read it in the Guardian?).
Furthermore, I do not at all accept that the agenda you ascribe was in fact that of the pro-repeal campaigners at all.
And since it's repeal, not a single teacher I know has felt like they have been given any more powers to tackle bullying at all.
And futhermore - I really refuse to believe that an increase in attacks was caused by David of Holloway and the Bishop of Carlisle (who not even Christians are apt to listen to) appearing on Newsnight. If you can actually show a causal link rather than simply asserting it, I'd be interested.
There may be evidence for what you say, but as you said to Fishfish, please provide it.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Alas for you and Freud, there was no rise in homosexuality caused by thousands of children losing fathers in the first and second world wars and many mothers not having the opportunity to remarry.
Is this statitically true? Can you back this up with evidence? How does anyone know there no more or less gay people than before the war? Could not the gay lobby of the 60's onwards reflect a rise in numbers of gay people connected to absense of fathers?
I genuinely don't know anything about this. I would like to know if such studys have taken place, and how they reached their conclusions. If homosexual sex used to be illegal, how do they know the numbers of homosexuals?
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
Posts: 672 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
I didn't bother citing it as I'd already discussed it at length earlier on this thread -
p.29
here's the relevant bit from a long discussion
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
I well remember the 'Keep the Clause' campaign in Scotland which was pushed by people like Brian Souter and Cardinal Winning, even some of my own friends got involved. The result was a great outpouring of anti-gay stuff in the media much of it from people identifying themselves as Christians, and violence against gay people actually went up.
quote:
There have been more immediate casualties also - an increase in bullying, homophobic attacks and the reawakening of a latent prejudice in Scottish school playgrounds. There has been an increase in attacks on homosexuals and gay switchboards are finding that suicide threats have doubled.
Sunday Herald
In the survey I mentioned earlier, rates of violence against gay people in Edinburgh were three times the national average, in the survey taken at the time of the Section 28 furore they went up to four times the national average.
Assaults lead to climate of fear for Scottish gays NB - ignore the typo further down it's '4 times' not '14 times'
This law which was much championed by many Christians also allowed bullying of children who either were or were perceived as gay to flourish in schools.
BBC report of Education Institute research
The exact alchemy by which a tirade by 'A. Christian' about the evils of sodomy on the letters page of the 'Daily Record' or 'The Sun' or 'Evening News' turns into a pissed-up Edinburgher deciding that a spot of queer bashing on Calton Hill would make a nice alternative to a kebab is not something I am privy to. But that a lot of 'A. Christians' adding to the postbag along with the other 'A. Readers' with their views on how 'sordid' gay sex is, how gays 'spread disease' how 'they're a danger to our children' etc. has something to do with it, I don't doubt. Attacks against asylum seekers have been on the rise since the recent campaigns against them in certain tabloids.
But why the hell do I bother? I've come to the conclusion that some Conservative Christians simply don't care that much about the suffering their views end up causing to gay people, because it would be too difficult for them to admit that the authoritative Bible they have built their piety upon contains stuff which is quite simply harmful and wrong. Therefore if suffering gay people spoil that picture of the wonderful Bible which has the correct answer to all things - they have to be sacrificed. That's how it ends up looking to me.
You say 'The Bible says so' and I say, 'So what? - whether it's written in the Bible or the Daily Mail, it's the same old cruel bullshit which people like Arabella have to suffer for - not you.' and I don't regard 'It's in the Bible' as an excuse for causing needless suffering to others anymore than 'It's in the Koran' or 'I read it in the News of the World'.
yours finally sickened to the back teeth
Louise
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Fishfish,
I crossposted with you earlier. If you want statistics then go look at some casualty figures for WWI and WW2. The effects of WW1 were so dramatic demographically that in Britain alone they led to a 20% imbalance in favour of women in the key age groups involved in the war - those in their 20s and 30s (Jay Winter 'Britain's Lost Generation of the First World War' IIRC)
If you look at World War 2 pay particular attention to Russia where there were disproportionate casualties, at least 7 1/2 million military deaths, not to mention the possible impact of their huge (15m) civilian losses, which would have left many orphaned children being brought up by women in institutions. We're talking in terms of large numbers over relatively short periods of time. If absent fathers cause homosexuality, then all I can say is where are all those fabulous extra Russian gays? Why hasn't Russia noticed this disproportionate wave of gay men we ought to expect there thanks to the demographics of the Great Patriotic War?
Or indeed why didn't anyone notice all those war widows with gay sons - particularly in those villages which lost disproportionate numbers of men where you'd think a sudden radical increase in gay men might be noticed in a small community?
Meanwhile can I treat you to some of Freud's theories on religion and on Christianity and the Atonement in particular? Or are you still insisting that bonkers psychoanalysis must only be applied to gay people? I am assuming that you've read very little psychoanalysis or you'd see the irony of using Freudian theories to back up your views on gay people, after all he thought religion was an infantile neurosis that could be cured with therapy.
Oh the irony...
*sigh*
L.
PS. The first major moves to decriminalise homosexuality in the UK came not in the 1960s but in the 1950s with the Wolfenden investigation and report 1954-7 which paved the way for the later legalisation and this was not triggered by any suddenly noted rise in homosexuality but because they were getting uncomfortable with locking up people like Sir John Gielgud and peers of the realm.
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
And yes, in trying to be consistant, I would teach that usury is also sinful.
So do you have a savings account? A checking account that pays interest? A 401K or IRA or even a Christmas club account?
Do the people you attend church with have any of these?
Do you have a credit card or a mortgage, where you cause someone else to sin by borrowing money at interest?
When is the last time anyone at your church preached on the evils of usury, declared how much God hates usury, or rebuked anyone for lending or borrowing at interest?
The Bible is unambiguous on this one. So why don't we have a constitutional amendment to ban lending at interest? If we're voting on Moral Issues, on Biblical Christianity, why is gay marriage a bigger issue than usury?
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Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
When is the last time anyone at your church preached on the evils of usury, declared how much God hates usury, or rebuked anyone for lending or borrowing at interest?
Well, I guess its important to remember that most of the Scriptures about usury are from the Mosaic Covenant - a specific Covenant between God and a specific people (Israel) in a specific land for a designated time. The covanant ended when the New Covenant was established. So we don't now slaughter animals as sacrifices, or stone our rebellious chldren.
How do we know what of the Old Covenant is applicable to us? The NT teaching. Now I'm no expert on Usury - but Jesus at least seems to posiitively mention earning interest (Matthew 25:27). But the moral and sexual law seems universally reinforced by Jesus and the other NT writes.
So - nice attempt - but it fails to convince me that I'm being a hypocrite here.
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
I am assuming that you've read very little psychoanalysis or you'd see the irony of using Freudian theories to back up your views on gay people, after all he thought religion was an infantile neurosis that could be cured with therapy.
Well, I didn't realise I was being Freudian - as I say i am no psychologist. I'm just reporting the theory that many gay people find matches their own experience. Of course absent fathers is not a simple cause of homosexual feelings so that every child without a father develops homosexual feelings - in the same way that every person who takes a chainsaw to his leg falls over. The development of the mind and sexuality is obviously much more complex than that.
However, it still seems to me that male parenting issues is a strong factor. I find it striking that almost every gay man I have met has had a poor relationship with his father - either he is physically or emotionally absent or absuive. I can't back this up with statistics - but it is an observation which strieks true almost every time. But I can't back that up with statistics. It just seems to be true.
But again I need to stress, the reason I mention all this is a possible explanation why God prohibits gay sex. Even if this is not a valid explanation, it seems to me what God says would still stand.
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
Posts: 672 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
You say 'The Bible says so' and I say, 'So what? - whether it's written in the Bible or the Daily Mail, it's the same old cruel bullshit which people like Arabella have to suffer for - not you.' and I don't regard 'It's in the Bible' as an excuse for causing needless suffering to others anymore than 'It's in the Koran' or 'I read it in the News of the World'.
yours finally sickened to the back teeth
Louise
Well at least we're clear that it IS an authority of the Bible issue after all. If only the wider Anglican Communion would be so honest.
I'm pretty sick of it too - sick of being told that because my church teaches what the church has always taught about one particular form of sexual contact that we are the source of all evil in society (notable, none of the links you provided were able to show any actual causal link between Christian commentators on the issue and homophobic violence.)
Back teeth indeed.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
PS. The first major moves to decriminalise homosexuality in the UK came not in the 1960s but in the 1950s with the Wolfenden investigation and report 1954-7 which paved the way for the later legalisation and this was not triggered by any suddenly noted rise in homosexuality but because they were getting uncomfortable with locking up people like Sir John Gielgud and peers of the realm.
[Tangent] I think it was Bernard Levin who pointed out that the great unsung hero of post-war British history was the civil servant who persuaded the then Home Secretary, David Maxwell-Fyfe, that prosecuting Benjamin Britten and Peter Pears would not be a good idea. I suspect that the odious Maxwell-Fyfe's reign of terror was probably one of the motive forces that pushed people into thinking the laws should go.
The law was widely recognised as being a blackmailer's charter among thinking people. As conservative a writer as C.S. Lewis makes that point in one of his letters.
Prosecution tended to be arbitrary. I recently buried a man who, during the war, used to share a double bed with his lover in as public a place as an Air Raid shelter. Of course, in that innocent age people could have persuaded themselves that they were just good friends. Quentin Crisp reports in his autobiography that he was prosecuted once (and acquitted). One may infer from this that the police were not trying very hard.
Curiously, Roy Jenkins notes in his autobiography that when he was pushing the laws legalising homosexual acts and abortion through parliament, he found that his main supporters on the gay issue were his main opponents on the abortion issue.[/Tangent]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
A week's enforced shore leave and it seems that even Dead Horses get a new lease of life.
Arabella with all due respect throwing your toys out of the pram is hardly the way to contribute to this thread. In fact, by telling us that you're being victimised and thinking of leaving SOF it feels to me that you're trying to emotionally blackmail this debate out of existence. If you're so unhappy about it just don't visit Dead Horses.
On one point I agree with Adeodatus, Louise and others, that the Church does not do very well in matching its pastoral actions to its public statements. This happens in all sorts of areas, but when evangelicals for example emphasise 'loving the sinner' how do they actually back this up?
This is a long way from claiming as Louise, Adeodatus and Ruthw have that the Church's negativity towards same sex intercourse is directly, or even indirectly, responsible for homophobic attacks or gay teen suicides. Louise has simply not proved a direct causal and can't. It seems to me improbable that homophobic attackers in Soctland or England are even aware of what is being said by church leaders. What is more significant is the higher visibility of the debate and the higher visibility of the gay community during such times. Homophobic attacks are usually perpetrated by the least churched element of society - young working class males. They are very often the same as those involved in racist attacks and as a society we should be very alarmed about the fact that no educational, or crime prevention measures seem to have any effect on these types of violence. Sadly, however the chief victims of violence by young working class men, are other young working class men (of whatever sexuality) suggesting that violence perpetuates itself.
On the question of teenage suicides there is no doubt that young homosexuals are under greater pressure than their contemporaries at an already sensitive time. We should be wanting to know why suicides have increased across the board, especially among boys. I suspect there will be a number of factors. Teaching people to play the victim, suggesting that sexuality is fixed when we know that in many cases it is fluid especially during adolescence might also be contributory factors.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Spawn, Lep, et al - I hope with a little prompting that you might realise you don't need a bottle, a knife, or a fist to commit an act of homophobic violence. Words are weapon enough - and the Church uses them with surgical precision and fatal force. It's far easier to keep your hands clean by talking someone into suicide than by driving the knife into them yourself. Only those who have been on the receiving end truly know this, but it's worth pointing out to those of you who haven't.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Belle
Shipmate
# 4792
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Posted
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
I've come to the conclusion that some Conservative Christians simply don't care that much about the suffering their views end up causing to gay people, because it would be too difficult for them to admit that the authoritative Bible they have built their piety upon contains stuff which is quite simply harmful and wrong. Therefore if suffering gay people spoil that picture of the wonderful Bible which has the correct answer to all things - they have to be sacrificed. That's how it ends up looking to me.
Whether or not they care about the consequences - and probably many of them do, I think this is a valid point. I don't believe the Bible is inerrant - and while it contains truth, not everything in it can be relevant for all time. For example - how many people today would advocate giving a woman poison to drink to determine her guilt or innocence just because her husband entertained an unsupported jealous fear she had been adulterous? (Numbers 5, 11-31)
It's easy to say this doesn't apply to us because it is the Mosaic law , but it does illustrate that the Mosaic law was very much a product of its particular time and culture and that things change. (I can't even see how the principle behind this ritual could be upheld in this day and age.)
Of course if you are unwilling to see the bible as in any way a product of its authors and their culture, and instead see it as a monolithic entity enshrining the mores of an earlier time as eternally valid then it will be threatening to consider that anything in it could be flexible.
What we can be sure of is that God delights in love - the kind of love that Paul so eloquently describes in Corinthians 13. Anyone who labels love expressed between homosexual people in loving, monogamous relationships, entered into with the intention of permanance as 'wrong' is (I think) in danger of labelling something good evil, and I cannot see how that advances the kingdom.
It is that issue which seems to me to make all this talk of gay people being OK if they don't actually express their sexuality just pious cant (however sincerely believed). It is a nonsense to say that something is good until it is expressed. It either continues to be good when expressed or it never was good in the first place. And that is the problem. Anyone who says that homosexual love when expressed (and to clarify, I'm referring here to the kind of thing the participants would gladly express within marriage if that option was available to them) is wrong is inescapably damning the feelings that give rise to it - and a gay person cannot excise those feelings from their body and mind.
And before anyone compares heterosexual sexual feelings and says - oh well, I'm in the same boat cos I'm single and I don't feel my sexuality has been impugned because I can't express it at the moment - it's not the same thing. In the appropriate circumstances, heterosexuals are allowed to express it, whereas a homosexual never is. There is a difference.
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where am I going... and why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 318 | From: Kent, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
The True Freedom Trust link that FishFish posted has a couple of stories on it, but they are fictitious, as it says at the bottom of the page. I decided to check out some of the actual true testimonies, and came across this:
Married Gay Man
This is the testimony of a gay man who is married. He hasn't ever had gay sex. This, I think, is rather typical of what would await a gay man or woman, should they decide to do what Lep, FishFish, etc recommend.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
What we can be sure of is that God delights in love - the kind of love that Paul so eloquently describes in Corinthians 13...
Is this the same homophobic, mysoganist, ignorant Paul people choose to ignore elsewhere?
quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
And before anyone compares heterosexual sexual feelings and says - oh well, I'm in the same boat cos I'm single and I don't feel my sexuality has been impugned because I can't express it at the moment - it's not the same thing. In the appropriate circumstances, heterosexuals are allowed to express it, whereas a homosexual never is. There is a difference.
Well - that would be me. I actually think, in day to day life, it is exactly the same. I am single. I may desparately want to express my sexuality. But I am not married. I may want to be married - but if I can't find someone to marry, then I must deal with that issue right here and right now. Saying "Ah - you can get married" does not help at all if I cannot indeed get married! Its as insensative as saying to someone who has just broken from a relationship "There are plenty more fish in the sea."
The better response to singleness, whatever reasons and causes, is surely to use the experience as a way to get to know God better.
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
Posts: 672 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
The True Freedom Trust link that FishFish posted has a couple of stories on it, but they are fictitious, as it says at the bottom of the page.
What it actually says is that "Richard and Anne's stories are fictitious, but very typical of those who contact TfT for help.
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
The True Freedom Trust link that FishFish posted has a couple of stories on it, but they are fictitious, as it says at the bottom of the page. I decided to check out some of the actual true testimonies, and came across this:
Married Gay Man
This is the testimony of a gay man who is married. He hasn't ever had gay sex. This, I think, is rather typical of what would await a gay man or woman, should they decide to do what Lep, FishFish, etc recommend.
Oh yes....that's JUST what gay men need to do! Marry women and spend the rest of their lives fighting their inclinations to please God. Never mind the pain and anguish this causes their wives and children. After all, it gives those innocent bystanders a chance to struggle with their faith too! ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Arabella----I hope you will ignore those who are trying to shame you into silence here. Your story continues to resonate with me, and, I suspect, with many who only lurk.
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Spawn, Lep, et al - I hope with a little prompting that you might realise you don't need a bottle, a knife, or a fist to commit an act of homophobic violence. Words are weapon enough - and the Church uses them with surgical precision and fatal force. It's far easier to keep your hands clean by talking someone into suicide than by driving the knife into them yourself. Only those who have been on the receiving end truly know this, but it's worth pointing out to those of you who haven't.
No this is nonsense. Another person's wellbeing does not depend on whether I fully agree with them or not, or even whether I object to aspects of their lifestyle and choices in life. There is a difference between a legitimate and reasoned debate in the Church and civil society about sexual morality, and speech which actually incites violence. Few suicides in any case can be blamed on any one single factor - mental illness is often a contributory cause as are moments of irrationality or dysfunction. The culture of victimhood also has an impact on this whole area.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
Arabella----I hope you will ignore those who are trying to shame you into silence here. Your story continues to resonate with me, and, I suspect, with many who only lurk.
I would love anyone to point out a single instance where anyone has tried to shame Arabella into silence on this thread.
The only exmaple of that tactic I have seen on recent pages, is people saying "your views cause innocent teenagers to kill themselves, and homphobic violence" without adducing any evidence for those statements at all.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
Arabella----I hope you will ignore those who are trying to shame you into silence here. Your story continues to resonate with me, and, I suspect, with many who only lurk.
If this is directed at one of my posts, let me simply say that none of my comments are intended to 'shame' Arabella into silence (rather a strange and politically-correct description). I hope she continues to contributes to this thread and all others she wants to on SoF.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Spawn, you simply could not be more wrong if you tried. You won't know the truth of the matter until you've had the experience of waking up every morning and having your first waking thought be that you are loathsome; having the same thought recur throughout the day; have it reinforced by every image, every sound of the culture around you telling you you are wrong, you are disordered, you are abnormal, you can never be happy and you don't deserve to be; and then going to sleep and having your last thought be that you don't want to wake up in the morning.
The Church is not the sole purveyor of such filth - it is one of several. And while things have become very different in secular society in the last 10 years, I'm certainly old enough to have known the experience I just described. The Church's hand is not the only one holding the knife - but that's not really saying much, is it?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Spawn, you simply could not be more wrong if you tried. You won't know the truth of the matter until you've had the experience of waking up every morning and having your first waking thought be that you are loathsome...
That description sounds like depression to me. It is something I have experienced ... Everyone who experiences black times like these needs help, support and understanding. It is not true that they need constant approval or agreement.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
Oh yes....that's JUST what gay men need to do! Marry women and spend the rest of their lives fighting their inclinations to please God. Never mind the pain and anguish this causes their wives and children. After all, it gives those innocent bystanders a chance to struggle with their faith too!
Paige,
You don't think I was arguing against gay relationships, do you?
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I would love anyone to point out a single instance where anyone has tried to shame Arabella into silence on this thread.
You asked for it, you got it....
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
To be honest, I think the way you are talking to me (as if I am the person who has made decisions in your denomination or set up the churches in your town) is pretty manipulative.
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Arabella with all due respect throwing your toys out of the pram is hardly the way to contribute to this thread. In fact, by telling us that you're being victimised and thinking of leaving SOF it feels to me that you're trying to emotionally blackmail this debate out of existence.
If telling people they are being manipulative blackmailers isn't shaming them into silence, you and I are clearly using different versions of English.
And if you don't like what Arabella has to say, I suggest YOU stay out of Dead Horses, Spawn. What's good for the goose, and all that....
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Paige,
You don't think I was arguing against gay relationships, do you?
ChristinaMarie---no, of course not. I've just been on the receiving end of that man's story, and it infuriates me every time I read it.
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I would love anyone to point out a single instance where anyone has tried to shame Arabella into silence on this thread.
You asked for it, you got it....
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
To be honest, I think the way you are talking to me (as if I am the person who has made decisions in your denomination or set up the churches in your town) is pretty manipulative.
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Arabella with all due respect throwing your toys out of the pram is hardly the way to contribute to this thread. In fact, by telling us that you're being victimised and thinking of leaving SOF it feels to me that you're trying to emotionally blackmail this debate out of existence.
If telling people they are being manipulative blackmailers isn't shaming them into silence, you and I are clearly using different versions of English.
Oh please - both of those quotes come from posts which were actually asking Arabella to stay in the debate.
If you read mine carefully (which it is obviously easier for you not to do) I was actually asking Arabella to contribute, but merely to respond to what I had actually posted, rather than a view she was assuming I had.
Honestly Paige - it's you, not Arabella, who should be shamed into silence by your selective use of texts. Something which you are undoubtedly well practiced at.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Okay thanks. Amen to your last post too.
Spawn's 'emotional' statement against Arabella reminded me of the Evangelical Alliance's book called 'Transsexuality'. After oosing out lots of statements that they love us TSs, they referred to how TSs say they feel suicidal when they come to terms with their condition, and have to chaneg over. The called it manipulation too. It's just a fact, but such loving people call it manipulation.
It was my struggles with the gay issue that led to my last breakdown. I spent 2 months in hospital, under section 3, suffering a psychotic episode. But hey! I guess I'm just being manipulative there. I'd better not mention suicidal thoughts either, don't want to manipulate or anything.
Christina - the extremely manipulative one, much more than Arabella. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Honestly Paige - it's you, not Arabella, who should be shamed into silence by your selective use of texts. Something which you are undoubtedly well practiced at.
Good one, Lep----I am certainly well-practiced at focusing on the texts that command us not to judge and to love one another. And, to be quite honest, I'm having a hard time following that one where you are concerned....
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Spawn - your inability to distinguish between the experience of persecution and depression merely illustrates my point. I hadn't expected you to understand - but I did expect you to recognise that there was something real to be understood.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Spawn - your inability to distinguish between the experience of persecution and depression merely illustrates my point. I hadn't expected you to understand - but I did expect you to recognise that there was something real to be understood.
Adeodatus, I simply don't share your supposition that the mental health problems which lead to suicide in the gay community are due to the statements of church leaders. Neither do I think that the attitude of the Church constitutes persecution. However, given the fact that such overblown language is used by older gay men, I don 't think there is much hope for younger gay males who are being told that they have to play the role of victim for the rest of their lives.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
It's not a supposition. It's an experience. A real one.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
If telling people they are being manipulative blackmailers isn't shaming them into silence, you and I are clearly using different versions of English.
And if you don't like what Arabella has to say, I suggest YOU stay out of Dead Horses, Spawn. What's good for the goose, and all that....
Oh p-lease! The word 'shamed' hardly applies anywhere - it's a great example of a word that has been emptied of all its proper meaning by the politically correct. I shan't leave this debate because I don't want to. I hope Arabella doesn't disengage either.
[ 25. November 2004, 11:44: Message edited by: Spawn ]
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
politically correct
Which translates to "I'm conservative and I don't like what you said"....
Adeodatus---don't you know that you are being emotionally manipulative by asserting that any experience you might have had is the fault of the Church or those who are protecting "Biblical Christianity"? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It's not a supposition. It's an experience. A real one.
I don't get it. You went through depression because of the way other people, especially other Christians and church leaders, reacted to or regarded your sexuality? Is that what you are saying? Are they entirely to blame for that or could there be other factors in play? How come you don't feel that way now, is that because the Church has changed its teaching, or that you take responsibility for your own feelings rather than allowing others to dictate your sense of self-worth.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
(*Takes deep breath ... OK, baby steps, baby steps*)
In hospital, when we assess someone for depression, one of the most important questions is, "Is this person's emotional state proportionate to what they're going through?" (That's a paraphrase, but I'm keeping it simple.) If it is proportionate, then they're not depressed.
An example: a person whose life-partner of many years has just died cries a lot and shows signs of deep emotional instability. Is that person depressed? Of course they're not.
Another example: a teenager tells you they feel like a worthless turd. The first question to ask is, is this feeling coming (a) from the person or (b) from a lifetime of being told they're a worthless turd*? If it's (b) then the person is not depressed. Most of what they need to do in that case is to be shielded or removed from the harmful influences.
(* Oddly enough, this is precisely the expression used by an Anglican priest I knew a few years back, who was asked to conduct the funeral of a young gay man. He also said that "people like that don't deserve a Christian burial".)
[ 25. November 2004, 12:00: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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