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Source: (consider it) Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
... Now I figure, "So what if people think I'm gay?" and I correct misimpressions only in contexts where it might really matter ...

There's a bumper sticker somewhere that says "I'd rather have bigots think I'm gay, than gays think I'm a bigot".

Says the man with the rainbow bracelet and Melissa Etheridge T-shirt.

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by rebekah:
I've found some people nervous of me just because I'm single - they fear straightaway that I may be lesbian. I'm annoyed, all right, angry, that I have to defend myself, or talk about personal issues or sexuality whether it seems appropriate, or not.

Interesting that you use the word "defend." I think I would have at one point, too. But I long ago decided that if I really believe that there's nothing wrong with being gay, I don't have to "defend" myself when someone thinks I'm gay (which happens from time to time, as I am 42, have never married, and live alone with two cats in a neighborhood with a fair number of gay people in it). Now I figure, "So what if people think I'm gay?" and I correct misimpressions only in contexts where it might really matter that I go for men and not women.

Do you really have to discuss your sexuality? Seriously asking, because a) I'm not a priest, so that could make things different, and b) I don't imagine everywhere in the world is like the diocese of Los Angeles, where increasing numbers of people have gotten to the point where they just don't care which way you swing as long as you're a good priest.

I fear that I must assure RuthW that I understand this situation. Being of advanced age and unmarried, I have discovered that a number of my colleagues and acquaintances, and fellow parishioners, assume that I am gay. I expressed my surprise at this, as I have never had interest in that direction, and my (gay) interlocutor told me not to be an idiot. He pointed out that I dressed with flair and was colour-coordinated, paid no attention to professional team sports, was a known supporter of a modern dance troupe, could cook, and liked to hang out with women. If that wasn't gay, I was told, he didn't know what was. The boys, he added, were waiting for me.

And like Henry, I am a member of the Diocese of Ottawa Indigo Girls Fan Club. Ember Swift rules!

Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Being of advanced age and unmarried, I have discovered that a number of my colleagues and acquaintances, and fellow parishioners, assume that I am gay. I expressed my surprise at this, as I have never had interest in that direction, and my (gay) interlocutor told me not to be an idiot. He pointed out that I dressed with flair and was colour-coordinated, paid no attention to professional team sports, was a known supporter of a modern dance troupe, could cook, and liked to hang out with women. If that wasn't gay, I was told, he didn't know what was. The boys, he added, were waiting for me.

And like Henry, I am a member of the Diocese of Ottawa Indigo Girls Fan Club. Ember Swift rules!

Well if HE thinks that's what makes gay, then we you have interesting news for those who are so focused on genital activity as the defining characteristic!

John

[ 24. March 2005, 02:27: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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The Gay Agenda: good taste and the promiscuous spread of modern dance troupes. I just knew it! [Paranoid]

[ 24. March 2005, 04:52: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The Gay Agenda: good taste and the promiscuous spread of modern dance troupes. I just knew it! [Paranoid]

If this is universally true, maybe gay men could start helping all the dull breeders out there? It might even make a good TV series!

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Calindreams
Shipmate
# 9147

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quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer
If this is universally true, maybe gay men could start helping all the dull breeders out there? It might even make a good TV series!

British series - 'Queer Eye For the Straight Guy'. Group of gay men do a make-over on a straight man to improve his presentation.

[Fixed UBB code]

[ 24. March 2005, 17:07: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
British series - 'Queer Eye For the Straight Guy'. Group of gay men do a make-over on a straight man to improve his presentation.

...a series which started in America...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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parodied in the FoxTrot cartoon once as Query Eye for the Database Guy -- "Null pointers don't have to be dull pointers." Hilarious to geeks.

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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US version

UK version

I think the Viking version's theme song would be "Althings just keep gettin' better..."

[Big Grin]

David
hardly anyone will get that, yup yup yup

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
There's a bumper sticker somewhere that says "I'd rather have bigots think I'm gay, than gays think I'm a bigot".

I looked for this all over the internet but couldn't find it. I may have to just make it myself at my cafe press site.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Will you be taking orders?

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I want a t-shirt with that on it--if you make it, I will buy it. (But please omit the comma--it's incorrect. The thing should read, "I'd rather have bigots think I'm gay than have gays think I'm a bigot." [/pedantry])

All Augustine the Aleut needs to make that list complete is a fondness for opera and a flair for interior decoration. I have however been slipping in the "seeming lesbian" department lately; it worries me that in the last year I've been hit on by more men than women. I may have to stop letting my hair grow and go back to the short style an old boyfriend called "the officious bitch haircut."

Calindreams, I think you missed that The Wanderer is well aware of the existence of that TV show.

After Lambeth 1998, the diocese of Los Angeles had a series of dialogues about homosexuality. I went to one at the Cathedral Center chaired by Warren Nyback, an openly gay priest, who began the meeting by flinging back the cover from the large pad of paper on an easel to reveal the plan for the day, which he called "the agenda--the 'gay' agenda!" Once the laughter died down, Bishop Chet Talton, the suffragan, spoke up from his seat behind the easel: "And naturally, I'm not allowed to see it!"

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I want a t-shirt with that on it--if you make it, I will buy it.

http://www.cafepress.com/mouseware

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Woo hoo! Thanks, MT. Haven't checked this thread for a few days, and didn't realize you'd done this already. Will be ordering one just as soon as I figure out what size to get.

[Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I think the Viking version's theme song would be "Althings just keep gettin' better..."

Did anyone get that? [Hot and Hormonal]

And [Overused] to Mousethief!!! [Yipee]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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As in Viking nobles being called althings? Yes, I think I got it. [Biased]

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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Close; it was an event rather than a title. But yay! [Yipee]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271

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I thought that was the name of the Icelandic parliament.

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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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True. I should say that it is still an event now, with roots in the old Viking Althing.

[Hot and Hormonal]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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Re: the t-shirts thing. One year (I think it was 1987) there was a lapel badge doing the rounds at the London Pride march that said,

"Why assume I'm straight?"

I wore mine to work the following Monday morning. It lasted till about 10.30 a.m., when one of our lab technicians said, "Darling, nobody does."

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Padingtun Bear.

Bear of Very Little Brain
# 3935

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The Althing is still live and kicking, oh yes:

The Alþingi

Over a thousand years old, dont'cha know.

Oh - did you mean this one? [Biased]

Or perhaps, this one?

Hmn - very tempted by the T-shirt...

P. B.

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Shameless publicity for a great new book:
A voice from the fringe

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Magnificats
Apprentice
# 5579

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I'm sorry, folks, to be carrying on this argument aboout homosexuality and Christianity, but, like the former Archbishop of York, I find myself in a "grey area".
I was reading an online article in The Tablet ( http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/citw.cgi/past-00096 ) in which in 2002 some Swiss Roman Catholic bishops said that those of homosexual orientation were not barred from holding positions within the Church, but those who were in committed relationships were.
I am gay and I have been with my partner for almost 15 years, but our relationship is a non-sexual one - I shan't go into the reasons, but it's not because of any sense of wrongdoing.
I am an Anglican (former RC) and hold a number of lowly positions within the church. Where do I stand as an Anglican?

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And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1.31)

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Magnificats:
Where do I stand as an Anglican?

Almost anywhere you could stand, as different churches in the Anglican Communion adopt just about every imaginable position on this, and a few unimaginable ones as well.

In the Church of England you would have as much right to be a priest as anyone else. And a great many priests are in fact in your situation.

At least in theory. In practice we often fail to live up to our principles. Which is why Gene Robinson is a bishop and Jeffrey John isn't [Frown]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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I guess, if I'm going to talk about this story, it has to be here.

I heard the author on the radio this morning, and looked up the story online as soon as I got to work. It's been nagging at me all day.

Two things that really stood out for me. In the interview on the radio, the author talked about how people from the Slavic Baptist Church described their treatment back in Russia or thereabouts, where they were despised, harrassed, and discriminated against, because of their faith. Had people tell them they didn't deserve a job, or they shouldn't live in the same apartments as regular people, or that sort of thing. And then they get to this country, and treat homosexuals the same way they had been treated in their homeland. And they feel that the way others treated them and talked about them and felt about them was unjust, but their feelings towards and treatment of gays was justified by the Bible. When asked if they didn't see any irony there -- they didn't.

Now, maybe it was a language problem. Or a cultural issue. But it sounded like a problem with thinking things through.

And the other thing that bothers me is the way the church failed all these young men. The young man who was the victim of the beating. And the young men who were the perpetrators. They all grew up in evangelical churches. The perpetrators apparently still attend regularly. How was it that the only part of their church's teaching that they really took to heart was that gays are bad?

It just hurts, to read a story like this.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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It surely does hurt, Josephine. A couple of years ago a 14-year-old boy was killed here in Wellington by a couple of guys using similar argument - he looked gay so they beat him up. He was left in a dark alleyway. We had students who knew him, and they were devastated.

The attackers tried to plead homosexual panic, but since the victim was so young it didn't wash.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
The attackers tried to plead homosexual panic, but since the victim was so young it didn't wash.

Would it wash if the victim was older?

And if so can we arrange for the assasination of the entire New Zealand bench of judges and their replacement by people who can spell the word "justice"?

Would they listen to the race panic shit some Americabns use, like the ones who did over Rodney King.

"He looked black and we know black people are very violent and we know they do drugs and we know drug users have the strength of ten men so we attacked him first because we were so frightened"

Iddle widdy poor ickle Californian cops so scared of unarmed men.


[Projectile]

[ 06. April 2005, 12:22: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013

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quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
And the young men who were the perpetrators. They all grew up in evangelical churches. The perpetrators apparently still attend regularly. How was it that the only part of their church's teaching that they really took to heart was that gays are bad?

Going to church doesn't make one a Christian. The report states that they were also guilty of breaking the law on several occasions, theft, etc.

It's like what the Orthodox say. Just because one is brought up in the Orthodox Church, does not mean one is truly Christian. Weeds and tares. It is the continuous repentance that counts.

I think also there is something psychological going on. They were breaking many of their church's teachings anyways, then they see someone who they perceive as being much worse. So they defend their own sinfulness by attacking someone they see as much worse. For them, it was much easier to wage war against another, than their own failings. Scapegoating?

Christina

Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
meow
Shipmate
# 9273

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Firstly, I truly believe that the whole 'religious motivation' is just a cover-up. They found someone they saw as being weaker and used it. In different times or places it could have been a women or a colored person that they would have picked.

Being a young Russian Immigrant who does not feel accepted and on top of things, it is probably a bit difficult to find people to bully. I assume that this is what they were looking for (in front of the girls and everything).

I find the extend of violence used extremely scary. Even if they really believe that it is sin to be homosexual (leaving the question of how can it be sin to BE in a way God made you) - how does that lead to the consequence of beating someone up? I feel that the way the article stresses the religious aspect distracts from the fact that young people were beating up someone who they saw as being different.

As a second point, the author seems to have their own issue with the evangelicals - and I am not saying that they should not. I just think that it mixes two issues. Their (unspoken?) claim seems to be that evangelical believes foster tension (to say it very mildly) between evangelicals and homosexuals.

quote:
Given that Evangelicals are such a large group, I wondered, isn't it inevitable that a certain percentage of them, however small, will focus more on hating the sin than on loving the sinner, and will find themselves inclined toward violence against homosexuals?
This argument using the bell curve can be used for/against every group large enough. I'd like to stress again, that I am not aguing against the author's opinion, but against the way they compile their arguments and reasoning. So many questions remain open in the article: Is there strong evidence (not just from personal stories, because they can always be found for both arguments) that evangelicals are more hostile, more violent .... This seems to be their claim.

What do you think?

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blog with rambling Snowballs

Posts: 104 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Would it wash if the victim was older?

And if so can we arrange for the assasination of the entire New Zealand bench of judges and their replacement by people who can spell the word "justice"?

Unfortunately, it did wash just last year. An older gay man was beaten to death by a known gay male prostitute, who then pled homosexual panic and was given a very light sentence indeed - about seven months. And yes, there was lots of outrage at the judge.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271

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This sounds like a horrendous story, but the link appears to have changed. It is now about the Seattle monorail project. [Frown]

It's hard to understand how something like this could be seen as being ameliorated by any consideration whatsoever.

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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Try this link.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Magnificats
Apprentice
# 5579

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I was reading in a book about Roman Catholicism that only two groups of Catholics are excluded from receiving communion - divorcees and practising homosexuals. I know the CofE has little problem with divorced people, and generally a bigger problem with homosexuality, but I was wondering - would a CofE priest be allowed to withold communion from a practising homosexual, or would he/she have to get it authorised by his/her bishop?

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And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1.31)

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John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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In the BCP rubrics it allows CoE priests to withhold communion from 'notorious evil livers' under strict circumstances (Priest notifies Bishop (who interviews person) and defers to Bishop's direction; Priest asks the person not to present themselves (as opposed to withholding sacrament) - relates to when everyone had to indicate their intention to partake at least 24hrs beforehand. If these steps haven't been followed the priest may choose to not admit only for 'grave and immediate scandal to the Congregation' and must notify the Bishop within 7 days.)

quote:
BCP 1662:
If a Minister be persuaded that any person who presents himself to be a partaker of the holy Communion ought not to be admitted thereunto by reason of malicious and open contention with his neighbours, or other grave and open sin without repentance, he shall give an account of the same to the Ordinary of the place, and therein obey his order and direction, but so as not to refuse the Sacrament to any person until in accordance with such order and direction he shall have called him and advertised him that in any wise he presume not to come to the Lord's Table; Provided that in case of grave and immediate scandal to the Congregation the Minister shall not admit such person, but shall give an account of the same to the Ordinary within seven days after at the latest and therein obey the order and direction given to him by the Ordinary; Provided also that before issuing his order and direction in relation to any such person the Ordinary shall afford him an opportunity for interview.

As you can see, only for extreme circumstances. It's significant that the first and named reason is for malicious and open contention with one's neighbours.

And as the CoE doesn't require auricular confession, it just doesn't do to turn someone away at the altar rail... how do you know they haven't sincerely repented?

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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Try this link.

I don't know whether I feel most angry, sad or revolted by this. How could anybody think anything like this could be justified in any way whatever? I was going to say more, but words fail me. At least the jury weren't fooled by this garbage.

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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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Well today I heard a fantastic story which is just too good not to relate. Please excuse that it is second hand...

I was talking to a friend today about the strange reaction of some people when they meet monastics - who mentioned that a friend of hers was upset to hear of the death of the pope (the link being that this friend had contemplated being a nun).

Now this woman worked with disabled people and when the pope was in Oz she was there with a gent in a wheelchair and the pope came and blessed the man in the wheelchair, then looked straight at her, put his hand on hers and said: "Be yourself".

My friend enquired did she hold to this and was it significant. "Yes", replied her friend, as she had been in quite a bit of turmoil at the time and unsure of which path her life was going to take.

"I was contemplating becoming a nun. But I came out as a lesbian instead!"

[Angel]
What a fantastic story. But actually, I don't think it is a coincidence with an ironic last-laugh-on-the-Church twist; because when you look at someone like Padre Pio (who is being beatified), he had the power of spiritual discernment in that when people came to the confessional, he already knew what was in their hearts.

So I fully believe that the Pope could discern her spiritual struggle.
[Votive]

(I guess it is not really one that the holy ppl who weigh up the evidence for a person's sainthood will want to know about though. [Tear] )

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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013

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Hi Coot,

I read a testimony of a Bishop or Archbishop who had had a personal word like that from the Pope, and was healed of a serious illness.

Christina

Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331

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My partner and I often talk about how we don't quite fit in completly to either the "gay community" or "Christianity". The Episcopal church I attend is a wonderful place and a very welcoming congregation, but because our bishop is so conservative our parish priest cannot marry us. Which is part of the planned fleeing to Boston.... It's uncomfortable to have you relationship as a point of controversy in the church. And frankly, we're all happy for Gene Robinson and all, but the church wholeheartedly supporting gay marriage would have been much more beneficial to the rest of us. So in the Christian traditon our very relationship is a political hot point and in the gay community being Christian is something we have to defend. Being in the south there is so much homophobia embeded in the church that people are wounded deeply when they try to be honest about their lives. I understand how painful it's got to have been for them, but it also means that I end up defending being a Christian a lot of the time. Ya just can't win. [Frown]

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Coffee is the answer

Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I want a t-shirt with that on it--if you make it, I will buy it.

http://www.cafepress.com/mouseware
Got my t-shirt in the mail late last week, and I love it. I'll be wearing it when we have our local Gay Pride weekend in May.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate, in her sig:
From: Tragically in Virginia....headed for Boston

We're fleeing for the SF Bay area as soon as a job comes through, ourselves. (Maybe we could see you at a Shipmeet while we're all still in Virginia!)

David

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
REVERAND
Apprentice
# 9347

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quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
WARNING! LONG POST!

Sorry, Calvin's granny, the on-line Mardi Gras kind of obscured your qu. [Big Grin]

There's much theological writing out there on the subject, so I'm only going to be able to summarize the arguments, rather than actually argue properly (that would take an even looooooonger post!). Further reading at the end.

The 'bible bullets' commonly used against gays are:

1) Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as you lie with a woman - that is detestable"

On a personal note, I have no problem with this. Lying with women is fine by me [Biased]
More seriously, this is part of the Jewish Holiness Code. We are not Jews, we're Christians. As Paul says repeatedly, we don't follow Jewish Law (cf allowing in uncircumsised Gentiles as Christians in NT churches, Peter's dream about eating non-Kosher food "That which I have made clean you shall not call unclean", etc.).

Friend, [Axe murder]

Again your taking scripture and applying a heart belief of what you think scripture is trying to teach.


First Fact is that Jesus was a Jew too, and was one of the biggest proponets of the law as matter of fact HE even said that HE came to fulfill the law not destroy it. many old testament passages were laws to show man that he couldn't live up to GOD'Sstandards. However, this is not one of them.

quote:
2) Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestible."

Ditto as for 1). Also, look at verse 18:it prohibits sleeping with a woman during her period on the same terms. There's also prohibitions against wearing mixed fibre clothing. Anyone got a polycotton shirt on?

This is more of the same bling bling from #1 enough said

quote:
3)Genesis 18-19: the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The sin isn't one of sodomy, it's about abuse of hospitality and gang-rape. If the men of Sodom were really raging raping pooftahs, would they have accepted Lot's daughter instead of his male guest and raped her until morning? Also, you have to talk very hard to try and get a prohibition against homosexuality out of a judgement against homosexual AND heterosexual gang rapes.

This is taken out of context of the whole story the pre-incarnate CHRIST told Abraham that HIS intention was to go down to Sodom and see first hand what HE [b] heard about. Not that [b]HE needed too, HE is GOD
Even after Abraham negotiated with GOD for his nephew Lot still couldn't find enough people to save the city.


quote:
4) Deuteronomy 23:17: "No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine-prostitute"
5) 1 Kings 14:24: "There were even male shrine-prostitutes in the landl the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites"
6) 1 Kings 15:12: "He expelled the male shrine-prostitutes from the land"

These all talk about prostitution rather than committed relationships, so say nothing about homosexuality per se.

Not even on the subject of the question of homosextuality. True it is a question of amoral practices.

quote:
7) Romans 1:26-17: "Even their women exhanged natural ralations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men"

Finally, something that talks about lesbians!
Paul in Romans is talking mainly to the Jews, and is showing how Christianity is a natural extension of Judaeism, and the law of love the successor to the law of Moses. He starts off by trying to puncture the Jews sense that they are justified by their works by showing that they don't follow even their own laws. Basically, he says: look at these nasty heathen who did all these things that Mosaic Law prohibits (that's the bit where the quote comes from), aren't they bad, oh by the way you're like that. He's using the Jews' ideas against themselves (remember, Paul was VERY well-trained theologically): it would need quite a lot of argument to show from this that he thought homosexuality was wrong.
Other points made are: Paul's talking about hets who do homo practices, ie go against their own natures. And he might be talking about the homosexual practices that went on in Pagan temples.

8) 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homsexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

There is a translation problem here. The relevant bits are: male prostitutes, and homosexual offenders. The Greek is 'malakoi arsenokoitai'. 'Malakoi' means 'soft', but no-one knows what 'arsenokoitai' means - the meaning has been lost. 'Arsen' means 'male', and 'koites' means 'bed' or 'sexual intercourse', but there is no recorded use of 'arsenokoitai' before Paul, so we don't know to what it was referring - temple prostitutes, call-boys, child male prostitutes or what? Taking it to mean simply 'male homosexual' (again, there's nothing about lesbianism here) is a very large assumption. Here, the two words have been translated separately: malakoi as male prositiute, arsenokoitai as homosexual offender, but no-one really knows how to translate it.

even though the greek word is first used by Paul in the scriptures and no where else in scripture doesn't mean that we cannot inerpret what Paul's intention was. We can see how this greek word was used in other greek text ie. Josephus and the like. Furthermore, let scripture interpret scripture as shown in other passages the theme addressed regarding sexual practices. Remember the whole Cannon was not written in Paul's day. They had O.T. to address these specific incidents. Let me reaffirm that Christianity came out of Judism as even Pope John Paul II said when he was an alter boy when his best friend came to tell him good new that both of them graduated H.S. Nun didn't want him to come into church.

quote:
9) 1 Timothy 1:9: "We know that law is made not for the righteous but for law-breakers and rebels... for adulterers and perverts,... and whatever else is contrary to sound the sound doctrine"

Again, this is the NIV translation. Again we have 'arsenokoita', translated in this passage as 'perverts'. See above.

10) Jude 7: "Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion"

You can sugar coat it anyway you like it immoral, preversion, but sin is still sin and there are no big sins ie Homosexuality, Murder... or little sins lying...

What GOD does say in Rev. is that there will be no adulters in Heaven and HE doesn't mean that neccesarily in a sexual context. Rather, those who are not of Christ a part of HIS bride the Church. (not protestant, catholic...) but HIS body of belivers who fully desire to follow HIM. Now we all sin and come short of the glory of GOD but, the key words here are beileve (truely believe Christ is saviour and accept that for their life) and desire to follow... cannot see that a person choosing a life style that was never sactioned by GOD as fully desiring to following GOD. This is a gain a heart decision that needs to be made with GOD who loves us all. One who cannot allow sin in HIS presence (or HE wouldn't be GOD)

quote:
See 3). Also, Jude does not specify the perversion - it may be referring to the legend that the women of Sodom had sex with angels. Basically, Sodom became a byword for lust and perversion: how you can get from that to a prohibition on loving and monogomous homosexual relations where there is no compulsion or exploitation is beyond me.

AFAIK this is all the bible says that could possibly be interpreted as refering to homosexuality. Do let me know if I've missed anything.

FURTHER READING:
What the bible says about homosexuality

Difference is not a sin

Chapter 2 of 'Issues in Human Sexuality' by the House of Bishops, 1991.

Finally, here's a few other bible quotes to ponder:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." -- John 3:16

"God, who knows the heart, showed that He accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us." --Acts 15:8

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28

"The voice spoke to him a second time, ' Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'" -- Acts 10: 15

"By your fruits will you know them" --- [can't remember]

"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." -- Romans 7:4

"The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery'...[etc]... and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: Love your neighbour as yourself."

And from the liturgy: "We are the Body of Christ; by one Spirit we were all baptised."

[I think I seperated out the quotes and the responses properly]

[ 21. April 2005, 11:05: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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The Heart is desperately wicked who can know it. Apostle Paul

Posts: 3 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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REVERAND, did you read the previous 46 pages of this thread? Did you see that all this has already been covered? (And why is your name in all caps?)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Come off it Ruth. You didn't honestly expect someone to post something new and original on this thread?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scoticanus
Shipmate
# 5140

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Ruth, I see that this thread started in November 2001 and REVERAND has just come on board this month. One of the problems about the Ship is that some people have been on it for years whereas others are newbies, desperate to discuss (e.g.) Christianity and Homosexuality, which is the livest of live topic for them even though it's a very dead horse for longer-serving shipmates. I remember how puzzled and frustrated I felt a couple of years ago, when everything I wanted to sound forth about or discuss with other Christians seemed to be categorised as a Dead Horse!

Maybe the most popular Dead Horses should be officially revived every couple of years, to let newbies discuss them for what for them will be the first time?

Posts: 491 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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scoticanus, I know that. If it weren't a live topic for me, I wouldn't have a post on just about every one of this thread's 47 pages. But it chaps my hide when someone brand-new comes to this thread and addresses someone he doesn't know as "Friend," followed by a [Axe murder] smilie, and then proceeds to lecture at great length as if everything he's saying is going to be news to folks here. That there are 47 pages should be a bit of a clue that this is not the case. I expect nothing new and original; I simply expect some acknowledgement that what is being said is neither new nor original. It's a long, ongoing conversation, and newbies should acquaint themselves with at least some of it before they jump in.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ComatoseSquirrel
Shipmate
# 9094

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Actually I think the post just re-awakened my fear of being crushed by falling hearts.

As a unashamed newbie, I'm finding the longer topics on the boards harder to crack and the frequency with which some people are able to post on here scares me, so I can symperthise... The fact that the quote is from the very first page however does suggest a complete lack of reading. (something which I'm currently doing no end of - tips would be useful)

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Don't you dare use the word 'party' as a verb in my shop!

Posts: 105 | From: York | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Tips? Skim through the last 10 pages of the thread to see what's been discussed in the last few months. Alternatively, skim through as much as you can stand and then follow the discussion for a while by lurking.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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Chasing something else, I came across this NY Times article that really depressed me. (Requires free rego)

How does it happen?! What's going on guys? (US Shipmates) You're the land where freedom and free speech is King - how are these people getting away with it!? Surely out of nearly 300 million people, the people with the views that want to stop supportive organisations or the dissemination of educational material regarding homosexuality in schools are a minority? Less than the total number of gay people in the US I shouldn't wonder!

Why do they have such a loud (and effective) voice?!

I am often puzzled by why you guys are so enamoured of your Constitution, but when I read stuff like this, I realise it is the only thing that keeps nutters from trampling all over the rights of people who don't share their views.

Now all you need is for Mr Bush to change it so they can legally trample all over the rights of ppl who don't share their views.
[Mad]


[On another note, just before that article, I found the website www.tompaine.com which made up for it]

Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
How does it happen?! What's going on guys? (US Shipmates) You're the land where freedom and free speech is King - how are these people getting away with it!? Surely out of nearly 300 million people, the people with the views that want to stop supportive organisations or the dissemination of educational material regarding homosexuality in schools are a minority? Less than the total number of gay people in the US I shouldn't wonder!

Why do they have such a loud (and effective) voice?!

They’re better organized. Their team has one position. Our team has everyone from people who don’t care what the Bible says to those who think homosexual sex is sinful but don’t want to impose their religious beliefs on others. It’s hard to come up with a good rallying cry that everybody can agree with. “These people are wrong” isn’t particularly inspirational.

I actually found the article encouraging, in a backhanded way. For example:

quote:
Another battle involved student journalists at East Bakersfield High School in California. They wrote a series of articles for the school newspaper this spring that explored gay issues through student experiences. But the principal, John Gibson, citing concern for the safety of students who had been interviewed and photographed, would approve publication only if their identities were withheld.
Back when I was a high school journalist (11-12 years ago), the gay and straight student alliance was called the drama club. When I wrote a feature on homosexuality and issues facing homosexual teens, I used pseudonyms because only one of my interviewees was completely out of the closet. The fact that these students were out of the closet and comfortable having their real names used means that the culture in schools has probably changed, and they didn’t think they would be at any increased risk. The fact that some school districts are trying to prevent gay-straight student alliances means that there are students in those schools who are trying to start them.

All of which is frankly a little amazing to me.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013

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You cannot argue against this:
quote:
Mathew D. Staver, president and general counsel of another conservative group, Liberty Counsel, said: "We're concerned about the effort to capture youth through indoctrination into the homosexual lifestyle. Students are a captive audience, and they are being targeted by groups with that as an agenda."
if you believe that the condemnation of same-sex activity of the Bible, is about straight people who perverted their nature through pagan beliefs and practises. If ideas can result in straight people having gay sex, then parents have every right to oppose gay propaganda being taught to their children in schools.

It is you, Coot, who are against free speech. You wish to punish the majority, for not accepting the wishes of the minority.

Christina

Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
if you believe that the condemnation of same-sex activity of the Bible, is about straight people who perverted their nature through pagan beliefs and practises. If ideas can result in straight people having gay sex, then parents have every right to oppose gay propaganda being taught to their children in schools.
I take your point (I think) but is there any evidence to back up such a view? If ideas can determine your sexuality surely homosexuality would have died out a long time ago? (Even today any homosexual is going to be exposed to a lot more heterosexual thinking than vica versa.)

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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