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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
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Divinity Dan
Apprentice
# 2246
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Posted
Dear People of God (as my bishop likes to say):I just registered and boarded SOF earlier this week. I've read the first two and the sixth pages of this thread. I wish I had time to read all pages, but I'm a middle-aged first-year divinity student somewhat overwhelmed by all the studying I have to do. Anyway, on this day (known to some of my Anglo-Catholic friends as the commemoration of St. Charles, King and Martyr), I plunge in to this particular fray. At the moment I don't feel inclined to launch into a long description of my views on this subject. I do feel moved to say I'm impressed and heartened by the extent to which the people participating in this thread strive to debate in an atmosphere of Christian love. I do have thoughts on this subject and they're greatly influenced by the fact that I'm a gay man who--through reading, thinking, discussing, and an enormous amount of praying--has come to believe my sexuality is a gift from God. Having said that, I'm also someone who is enormously pained by the ways in which disagreements about Christian faith and sexuality have rent the church universal. I grieve at the extent to which people on opposite sides tend so readily to demonize each other. So, I'm heartened by most (though to be honest, not all) of what I've read on this SOF thread. It seems we're striving to be pilgrims here, trying to remember to love each other as members of the Body of Christ. Sorry, I didn't mean to get preachy. (Am I breaking the rules?) I simply wanted to articulate my strongly-felt gut response to my first visit to this thread. By the way, Joan the Dwarf, I can't refrain from expressing my admiration for your postings. You're brilliant! I'll shut up now. Dan (who's reading I Corinthians and St. Anselm this week, among other things, and finding his head swimming from time to time)
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Years from now, when you talk about this--and you will--be kind.
Posts: 18 | From: New Haven, Connecticut, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
enders shadow, if you have a point to make kindly do so without the *nudge nudge wink wink know what i mean* stuff. thanks.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
sorry seig *hangs head in shame* mea culpa... but i just couldn't resist...
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
wanderer my dear, words fail me. check out the hell thread yourself and see. 
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
I tend to agree with joan the dwarf and innana that if a relationship is a blessing to those around them (and i would add, images Christ's love)that it is something to be held up, and not labeled sinful. (We should all be so lucky!).
I know of several homosexual partnerships which fit that model - that is to say, long-term, & a blessing to the people around them. (I wouldn't know if they are monogamous, but they seem to be).
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
SORRY!!!!!
It's been around so long and racked up such impressive numbers!
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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Canucklehead
Shipmate
# 1595
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Posted
Wow, the thread is alive again, and this time it only took two posts before the dreaded accusation of trolling was raised again. Perhaps there should be a new corollary to Godwin's Law.
Posts: 135 | From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Oct 2001
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gandalf35
Shipmate
# 934
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Posted
I find the Nature vs. Nurture question very fascinating, as well as the "gay friend" syndrom. I have many friends who fill both sides of the spectrum, and find it hard to believe that anyone would label a true friend. It reminds me of an aunt i had who would introduce some of my friends by whispering there race, oragin, or anything she might find distastefull eg: This is Bobby (Gandalf's colored friend).
I have also read that there is a strong black or white issue on Choice vs. Nature. In my experience, The vast majoraty of my friends say that their sexuality was from birth, I do have some that say it was their choice. One, in fact, chose to be homosexual because he had some deformaties from birth and the homosexual population was much less judgemental about this. I have not seen him for the last year or so but he seemed to be living in a loving relationship for several years. And for my last word, When I was about 14, I fell in love with a young girl who is black, I am not. Because of family, and church pressure "Do not become unevenly yoked" we were forced to split up. My point is be careful of using the bible to condem someone elses relationship as sinful, you may have to answer for it later. 
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Life is like a bowl of cherries... Mmmm cherries...
Posts: 185 | From: If hell exists, I live there. | Registered: Jul 2001
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alexliamw
Shipmate
# 2875
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Posted
At New Wine Youth, I attended a talk on sex and Christianity. Within this, I was shocked to hear the whole panel expressly state that they believe homosexuality is wrong. How can this be said at what claims to be a modern, forward-looking event? The church has alienated enough people without this problem making it worse. If Christianity hopes to be acknowledged as accesible and modern, it has to take all this on board. Surely an organisation such as this should be preaching a tolerance as opposed to a holier-than-thou homosexuality is wrong status.
I was even more annoyed to hear a panelist say that she hated the view that gays cannot change their sexual orientation. It is commonly accepted that homosexuals are born that way and it is a fact like hair colour which they cannot naturally change. It is not a choice they make! Any homosexual will tell you this. I'm straight, but I've been brought up my both my mother (a Christian) and my father (an atheist) to respect others and as part of a church that had a homosexual vicar for 18 years and welcomes all people into its congregation, I could not believe that a serious Christian group was saying this as if it were the divine truth.
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- Alex.
Over a year sinced I joined and I'm still under 200 posts....:-S
The church website I run
Posts: 196 | From: London | Registered: May 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
alexliamw said How can this be said at what claims to be a modern, forward-looking event? The church has alienated enough people without this problem making it worse. If Christianity hopes to be acknowledged as accesible and modern, it has to take all this on board.
Well i shall answer this question and not flog this horse any more. In a major bit of being simplistic christianity holds on to various absolutes ie Jesus was the Son Of god Trinity ect and these are reavealed in the bible and the creeds. The problems partly lies where do the absolutes end and start. One group (the evangelicals well more or less) holds on to more absolutes and another group (modernists terrible label then there you go) hold on to fewer absolutes. The former group hold on to a more literal interpretation of scripture than the latter. The evangelicals say that practicing homosexuality is wrong because that is what the bible says and how we have traditionally understood it. The modernists say well the bible was a text for its time and the writers didn't understand what it was to be a in a loving homosexual relationship. Both have a failing the evangelicals almost always have actually cut away at one or two absolutes already and just happen to have kept this one. The modernists actually have a problem of defining which absolutes should be kept and which should not. In the UK at the moment the evangelical wing of the church is more dynamic section of the church hence many up tempo events are run by that particular branch of theology. I hope that helps if you wish to read the details of the arguement please read the thread!!!
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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SWAT (aka the former Mr PInk)
Shipmate
# 2979
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Posted
My big prob is why Gay Society acts the way it does.
What makes gay people have the burning desire to bed as many people in the shortest possible (esp men)Saying that I'm probley as guilty as the next man (espically after I came out fully.
Its fine to be proud to have an idenity but why is it if you don't subscribe to the "lifestyle" then you're looked down on (& why does this all seem very familar)
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"That's sooooooooooooo"
Posts: 65 | From: Croydon | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alexliamw:
At New Wine Youth, I attended a talk on sex and Christianity. Within this, I was shocked to hear the whole panel expressly state that they believe homosexuality is wrong. How can this be said at what claims to be a modern, forward-looking event?
You have probably been told that such events are modern and forward looking because they have modern music instead of sixteenth century motets. But theologically such events are often very conservative, some still being in the dinosaur age, or at least positively mediaeval. There is a huge difference in being radical in your choice of music and radical in your theology. Christians often confuse which they mean.
Mr. Pink I think you will find there is a large section of the heterosexual community eg. the clubbing crowd who are just the same.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SWAT (aka the former Mr PInk)
Shipmate
# 2979
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Posted
quote:
Mr. Pink I think you will find there is a large section of the heterosexual community eg. the clubbing crowd who are just the same
True but then most of the straight clubbing crowd have usually been aided and abetted alcholiccaly or chemically.
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"That's sooooooooooooo"
Posts: 65 | From: Croydon | Registered: Jul 2002
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SteveWal
Shipmate
# 307
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Posted
What, and you mean gay people never drink or take drugs before having sex?
How moralistic of them! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 208 | From: Manchester | Registered: May 2001
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SWAT (aka the former Mr PInk)
Shipmate
# 2979
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Posted
No but think about this why is it you don't see hetrosexuals cruising or cottaging (shudder)?
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"That's sooooooooooooo"
Posts: 65 | From: Croydon | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
There are some unhealthy things in gay culture, but I think the oppression and repression to which gays have been subject for so long is in part to blame. Millions of people were (and frequently in some places still are) forced to hide their sexuality - that kind of constraint is bound to have unhealthy consequences.
Not that people don't bear any personal responsibility for what they do. And not that there aren't plenty of straight people who engage in unhealthy sexual activity.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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SWAT (aka the former Mr PInk)
Shipmate
# 2979
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Posted
I agree with the sentiments but as society has changed why hasn't attitudes. I've tried since I came out to hold the same set of values that I had before I was "out" however I'll admit I did feel the need to catch up somewhat (though always safely) basically as I felt I'd missed out (see Gay adotion thread) However even people in long term realtionships seem to have a anything goes (I.E. I'm committed when it suits me but if some bit of totty comes along then ...)I know it happens in the straight world & causes as much if not more grief esp when there are children involved. In my expeirence someone always gets hurt & not always directly.
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"That's sooooooooooooo"
Posts: 65 | From: Croydon | Registered: Jul 2002
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Paul Careau
Shipmate
# 2904
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Posted
I would say there are a number of reasons why the gay community in general is more promiscuous & generally hedonistic than the wider community.
First, not much more than 30 years ago the community faced very real problems of legal oppression that largely forced people into a clandestine underground existence. Whilst it is true that this ended at the end of the 60’s I would suggest that the 1970’s remained a period of significant social oppression. It has only been since the 1980’s that a more tolerant society has truly begun to emerge.
There are therefore people in the community today – basically anyone aged 40-50+ - who grew up in that environment. I would argue that the experiences of their youth not only shaped their lives & behaviours but of younger people coming into the community & being influenced by them as role models. Do not under-estimate the ongoing impact of this.
Second, society, the establishment and Christianity has been anti-gay for centuries. Mainstream Christianity is still anti-gay in a big way and is therefore of little or no use in providing any meaningful moral guidance within the gay community. Teaching that homosexuality is “a sin” is about as much use as a chocolate teapot and doesn’t even get us to square one as far as offering any meaningful ministry to the gay community is concerned. It can’t be that much of a surprise therefore that many people in the gay community prefer a simple clear-cut break from the values of the society that they rightly believe oppresses them. The logic runs like this:
1) Society says gays are bad BUT I know gays are good.
2) Society says promiscuity is bad – that is probably wrong too.
3) Christianity says homosexuality is a sin therefore Christianity and Christian values are evil oppression.
I know someone in the gay community who is an advocate of the promiscuous lifestyle. His opinions on Christianity in general are simple, to quote him:
“Christians are like strange dogs. If you make a habit of stroking strange dogs, one day you’ll get bitten. Gays trying to mix with Christianity is the same thing – they hate us – it is in their nature – sooner or later they bite.”
There is therefore a strong attitude of rebellion that encourages people to behave promiscuously. Society hates us what ever we do – therefore it does not matter what we do – lets party! According to many Christians we are all damned anyway so why bother worrying about it – lets make the most of our ever diminishing sex lives whilst we can.
Third, why are heterosexuals more monogamous in the first place? Animals in general are promiscuous by nature, monogamy is a largely socially constructed behaviour – i.e. you are brought up to be monogamous – you learn it & society encourages you to behave that way. How are gays and lesbians brought up? Often they are just told that they are perverts and that is that. They are given no advice on adult relationships by either their parents (unless they are very lucky) or their school – they are cast adrift and left to find out for themselves what it is that they really want from their sex lives. Section 28 ensures total silence in the classroom on these matters – young people often have no adult they can turn to for advise or help until they actually go out in the gay community and start having sex. Just imagine how heterosexuals would behave if they were raised like this?
Fourth, there is no marriage institution for gays and lesbians. Again, a major force for monogamous behaviour in the heterosexual community is marriage. If there was no such thing as marriage I doubt if the heterosexual community would behave as monogamously as it does.
Fifth is peer pressure and cultural pressure. Gay culture embraces promiscuity partly for the reasons I’ve mentioned and partly because this is the way it has always been historically for centuries. People are conditioned to behaving in this way because this is the way in which many people behave. You naturally match your behaviour to fit in with those of your friends. Few people – gay or heterosexual – are that strong willed that they can break entirely from such peer pressure and sometimes it affects people sub-consciously.
Therefore, promiscuity in the gay community is basically a product of the culture and society of our times. Gays can behave monogamously if they are encouraged to do so by society as a whole. Once upon a time they did! If you ever read Plato’s Symposium he mentions – almost as an aside – that homosexuals were generally far more monogamous than heterosexuals. The only reason for this was because the society and culture of the day encouraged them to behave monogamously.
Right now I think the way our society/culture is as a whole is that many gays and lesbians are discouraged/forced away from a monogamous relationship. I would like to see the day where people in the gay community were able to feel more comfortable that they really did have that option. To do that, society as a whole would need to value gay and lesbian relationships far more.
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Bye for now. Paul.
Posts: 92 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2002
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SWAT (aka the former Mr PInk)
Shipmate
# 2979
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Posted
Interesting posting Paul.
I agree in theory r/e the break with acceptted society howver if Gays want to be different why are they fighting to have the same rights as hetrosexual couples e.g pension rights, next of Kin ect?
As someone who "crossed" the great divide why does it seem to me that a large percentage of gays have the emotional maurity of a gnat and still act like my four year when they don't get their own way. Have appaling musical taste and are quiet happy to be ripped off by the culture they support?
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"That's sooooooooooooo"
Posts: 65 | From: Croydon | Registered: Jul 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Mr Pink,
What a strange handle for a gay basher!?
MMMmmmmm! Seems you're the kind of person that Paul's gay friend was talking about.
I'm sure you'll be used mightily to win many gays and lesbians to Christ, with your attitude.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ginga
Ship's lurker
# 1899
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Posted
All this talk of hedonism is making me a little uncomfortable.
Can I just put in a vote for the lesbian scene? Although extrememly incestuous it's certainly more toned down than its male counterpart (at least the versions of each scene that I've experiences). Sure, it's got its hedonistic side - as has straight culture. Been to Leicester Square on a Saturday night recently? - but mostly when me and my mates go out it's for the purposes of "having a nice beer and a chat and a dance and maybe a little rowdyness if the fancy takes us". It's about going somewhere where our relationships are accepted, not somewhere where we can pull everything going. And most of the girls that behave in the slightly more morally loose fashion tend to be quite looked down on.
We're not perfect. But even when we get a little...close, the trust is still there. I don't think any of us would dream of even kissing another mate's girlfriend, and everyone's always definite on who's going home with who at the end of the night.
Maybe we're an odd bunch though. My own group of mates got together in a similar way to the Ship. Sort of lesbian unrest. There is a lesbian scene that's based on materialism, hedonism, alcoholism and a whole load of other isms. But thankfully it's becoming the minority.
Posts: 1075 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Paul,
I think what your gay friend is referring to, is the practise of many christians, to be friendly to gay and lesbian people, until they realise that they are not going to change their sexuality.
Promiscuity, I believe, is rooted in death and despair. The antidote to this is the Gospel.
Personally, I buy neither the Nature nor the Nurture argument. I believe it is a mixture.
If a gay couple came to church and heard the gospel, and came to trust in Christ, I believe the Holy Spirit should be trusted to address their sexuality. He knows whether it is because of psychological damage (victim of sin), or inborn. I have met bisexual people who have at first described themselves as gay, to me.
By keeping gays and lesbians and transgendered people out of church, we only add to their despair, which can lead to promiscuity.
"God is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe." (But not if you're homosexual)
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brandy Alexander
Shipmate
# 2792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Mr Pink,
What a strange handle for a gay basher!?
MMMmmmmm! Seems you're the kind of person that Paul's gay friend was talking about.
I'm sure you'll be used mightily to win many gays and lesbians to Christ, with your attitude.
Christina
Christina, if you scroll up just a little bit and read Mr Pink's previous post, you'll see that he talks about having come out. Just between the two of us - he might just be, you know, well, ummm g - a - y himself.
Posts: 52 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Ooooooooooooopppppppppppppsssssssssssssss!! ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
My apologies. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Mr Pink,
I believe that certain Christians have had the same opinion of me during the time when I was deeply hurt, and expressing quite a lot of anger over judgemental attitudes.
What's changed, is that God has led me to forgive all the people who have hurt me, and also ask that God forgive them too. It took several months, and I believe it has led to inner healing. Not total healing, but a lot.
I'm glad you're happy. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I must be the only one here (am I?) who has no problem per se with the promiscuity. But then I don't believe in the sex as such. However, if I did, I don't think I'd see the promiscuity as a problem. I'm fairly promiscuous with regard to cuddling, kissing, and more dramatic things, just not sex as such.
David
chaste wanton
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Degs
Friend of dorothy
# 2824
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MR PINK:
Interesting posting Paul.
I agree in theory r/e the break with acceptted society howver if Gays want to be different why are they fighting to have the same rights as hetrosexual couples e.g pension rights, next of Kin ect?
As someone who "crossed" the great divide why does it seem to me that a large percentage of gays have the emotional maurity of a gnat and still act like my four year when they don't get their own way. Have appaling musical taste and are quiet happy to be ripped off by the culture they support?
Perhaps because we want to be different?
Because ALL straights are very mature for their years and never have tantrums.
They all have impeccable taste in music, and wouldn't dream of spending 100's of £££'s on season tickets for their favourite football team. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Pursuing a different lifestyle and having a different sexual orientation does not mean that I should be denied the same rights, priviliges and responsibilities as anyone else.
Including having a 'partner', which the House of Bishops' current statement denies to me as a priest.
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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.
Posts: 2388 | From: a land that I heard of once in a lullaby | Registered: May 2002
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Paul Careau
Shipmate
# 2904
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Posted
Of course, whilst a distinct group of individuals within the gay community may act in an immature manner & throw tantrums etc - this group is, I think, a minority. Generalisations can be dangerous.
You might point to famous gay people like Micheal Barrymore & Elton John and say - look - immature behaviour and tantrums. Contrast this with the behaviour of famous heterosexuals on the other hand - say Russell Crowe and Naomi Campbell and - err - you can immediately see how much more mature the the heterosexual community can be!
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Bye for now. Paul.
Posts: 92 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2002
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SWAT (aka the former Mr PInk)
Shipmate
# 2979
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Posted
I'm considered something of a freak by my "gay" friends as I'm in a mongomous realtionship & don't subscribe to live today & don't worry about it school of thought.
One of the major sticking points is my kids. Most of my gay friends think they should know by know however both me & their mother don't think so. therefore I'm regarded as a hypocrite for being openly gay in the adult world & "in the closet" with my offspring.
I agree we all wanna be different this is a major bone of contention with my dad & not just because I'm gay. He's being trying to makke me fit into his Maily Dale" view of the world since I was knee high & the fact that I've gone off the rails in his view while his "darling" daughter has after a period of rebellion come back into the fold (nice house, well off husband & kids) doesn't seem to wash.
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"That's sooooooooooooo"
Posts: 65 | From: Croydon | Registered: Jul 2002
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SWAT (aka the former Mr PInk)
Shipmate
# 2979
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Posted
As to promoscurity yes when I came out I shagged anything that showed any interest in me party because after years of feeling little or no self worth I lapped the attention up. Ok it wasn't statisfying but sometimes a quick fix is satisfying temparily.
As to poor misical taste please explain why grown men rave about talentless bands of no hopers who prance & mince regurgating stale cliches that were embrassing enough in the 70's & 80's when there are talented acts that never get the props they deserve.
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"That's sooooooooooooo"
Posts: 65 | From: Croydon | Registered: Jul 2002
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Degs
Friend of dorothy
# 2824
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MR PINK:
I'm considered something of a freak by my "gay" friends as I'm in a mongomous realtionship & don't subscribe to live today & don't worry about it school of thought.
One of the major sticking points is my kids. Most of my gay friends think they should know by know however both me & their mother don't think so. therefore I'm regarded as a hypocrite for being openly gay in the adult world & "in the closet" with my offspring.
Screw your friends - not literally!
Rejoice in your relationship. There's probably a tinge of envy in their attitude.
As for your kids - that's none of their business.
I have only one nephew, who's also my godson,and my sister and I have talked about telling him that Uncle D is gay. It will be when SHE thinks the time is right. He's being raised with open and accepting attitudes, and I don't believe there will be a problem. But it's his mother's decision.
Be different, Mr Pink - be yourself. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.
Posts: 2388 | From: a land that I heard of once in a lullaby | Registered: May 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Hi. I'm a gay man, also non-scene, liberal anglo-catholic, and in a long term monogamous relationship of 10 years or more.
I think that we are in danger of judging all gay people by those we see on the commercial scene. They make up only a small number of the gay people who exist. Its a bit like judging the entire heterosexual population by looking at behaviour in the average nightclub
I agree that cottaging and cruising are not ideal. but....are they not at least partially a result of being 'outsiders', and also the inability of the Church to be able to place gay relationship within Christian ethics.If all gay people here is the hatred of the fundies or, perhaps even worse, the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' brigade (I'd rather just have 'hate' - at least its honest) - can we be surprised that they don't exactly want to hear the Christian message on love, faithfulness, commitment, and so on.
All of which I firmly believe. If Rowan does get chosen for Canterbury, perhaps his gentle, considered views on this issue may start to change some hearts and minds, by his example
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Mike,
I agree with you entirely. If people are persistently told that they're going to hell because of their sexuality, it can lead to extreme behaviour. Many churches and Christians offer no hope at all to gblt folks. They don't listen. Listening is the first sign of love.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Paul Careau
Shipmate
# 2904
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Posted
It is perhaps stating the obvious to point out that if someone is persisently told that their sex life is inherantly "sinful" they will naturally have difficulty forging long term relationships. If they are purusaded to even half believe that every sexual relationship they have is somehow "dirty" - regardless of whether it is monogamous or a casual encounter in the men's loos - they stand very little chance of living anything other than a promiscuous lifestyle.
It is silly to expect that anyone with lgbt community should accept that their relationships are inherantly sinful. This is no difference from expecting a heterosexual man to believe that his marriage to his wife is a dirty sin. Human beings just can't view their own sex lives this way and remain sane.
It is about time Christianity grew up and ditched this "homosexuality is a sin" nonsense before it entirely discredits the religion and people start thinking "well, if that's what it says, it must be all made up like father christmas then". In fact I even know of one or two heterosexual agnostics who point to negative Christian teachings on homosexuality as a good reason as to why Christianity is unlikely to be anything other than made-up stories.
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Bye for now. Paul.
Posts: 92 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Mersymike sai , perhaps even worse, the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' brigade (I'd rather just have 'hate' - at least its honest)
I don't like that phrase but I stand at the conservative end of the argument and believe that Snx of any form outside marriage is not God's ideal. (I neither have the time or energy to define sex or marriage).
I find the phrase trite but it is close to what I believe.
I bear no one hatred please do not judge me.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Careau:
It is about time Christianity grew up and ditched this "homosexuality is a sin" nonsense before it entirely discredits the religion
Unless, of course, it's true, and then I suppose we'd be stuck. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Mind you, I don't think being gay and doing any number of things is a sin at all, but I do believe that we are not permitted to have sexual intercourse outside of male-female marriage. I'm not even convinced masturbation is allowed to me, as a Christian.
David
leaves in an hour for the Radical Faeries potluck
a strange promiscuous celibate person, he wanders the world, leaving baffled and disturbed people in his wake; "tra-la-la," he cries
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Careau:
I would say there are a number of reasons why the gay community in general is more promiscuous & generally hedonistic than the wider community.
First, not much more than 30 years ago the community faced very real problems of legal oppression <snip>
Second, society, the establishment and Christianity has been anti-gay for centuries. <snip>
Third, <snip> How are gays and lesbians brought up? Often they are just told that they are perverts and that is that. They are given no advice on adult relationships by either their parents (unless they are very lucky) or their school <snip>
Fourth, there is no marriage institution for gays and lesbians. <snip>
Fifth is peer pressure and cultural pressure. <snip>
Therefore, promiscuity in the gay community is basically a product of the culture and society of our times. <snip>
Right now I think the way our society/culture is as a whole is that many gays and lesbians are discouraged/forced away from a monogamous relationship. <snip>
A lot of reasons why everyone else is to blame. "It's not my fault!"
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Careau:
It is about time Christianity grew up and ditched this "homosexuality is a sin" nonsense before it entirely discredits the religion
to which ChastMastr replied
quote:
Unless, of course, it's true, and then I suppose we'd be stuck.
I can't believe you said that, but, yes.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Paul Careau
Shipmate
# 2904
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Posted
Nightlamp:
quote:
I bear no one hatred please do not judge me.
I think you are misguided but I don’t hate you. You have not seen the things I’ve seen, so I can forgive you.
Chastmastr:
quote:
Unless, of course, it's true, and then I suppose we'd be stuck
No mate – then we loose our faith. Are you really that blind to the knife edge along which so many tred?
Sharkshooter:
quote:
A lot of reasons why everyone else is to blame. "It's not my fault!"
Very good reasons however. If we abolished marriage for heterosexuals, for example, would that stabilise or de-stabilise heterosexual relationships? Unless we acknowledge these reasons and deal with the issues that lie behind them we will not be able to move forward. Ultimately, of course, we all need to take responsibility for our own relationships but we also need to lay to rest the ghosts of past oppression.
(as it happens - I personally am monogamous - not necessarily a "moral choice" as such - just the way the cookie crumbles.)
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Bye for now. Paul.
Posts: 92 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Dorothy's Friend says It is a very condescending argument
why?
In my opinion it is consistent with traditional christian morality and compassion. As I said before I find it a trite phrase.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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