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Source: (consider it) Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
And please stop the nonsense about "responding in kind to condescension." I haven't been talking to you at all; the latest condescension was all on your side.

I give up. Apparently thinking about the issue for 20 years makes you an expert and me a bigot. YMMV.
"Bigot"? Where did I say anything remotely like that? Now you're just putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head.

Wouldn't it be better to stop reading things into what I'm saying, and just respond to what I'm actually saying? Better still, why don't you just ignore my posts? Scroll on by them, if they bother you so much. If what I'm saying is so ridiculous, it won't matter anyway; why are you getting so worked up about it?

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
"Bigot"? Where did I say anything remotely like that? Now you're just putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head.

How about?

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I've already given a pretty good argument on this point; it really doesn't appear to me that you've taken it in, because you are so very invested in your own perspective. Of course, it does take thinking about these things for longer than 5 minutes - and having a bit of an openish mind - I will acknowledge.

...

Just in case anybody might be interested - obviously unlike Johnny here - in actually reading the links I've provided on this thread and others,

...

What you're saying is that you won't listen to anything that you don't personally care for and don't already believe in.

It looks like a duck, sounds like one, even waddles like one, but apparently isn't actually a duck.
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Matt Black

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Comper's Child, Louise and Mousethief, I'm sorry I've offended you. How would you suggest I get round the injunction in I Cor 5:9-11 (which applies also to thieves, drunks, gluttons etc), given that I sincerely believe that same-sex sexual relationships fall under that injunction? Serious question; I'd rather like to get round it if I can.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
And please stop the nonsense about "responding in kind to condescension." I haven't been talking to you at all; the latest condescension was all on your side.

I give up. Apparently thinking about the issue for 20 years makes you an expert and me a bigot. YMMV.
Engaging with an issue for 20 years means that a person might have relevant things to say than someone who repeats ideas that someone else told them.

[ 23. July 2008, 09:39: Message edited by: leo ]

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Martin60
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Oooh, as I didn't start the nyah, nyah, nya, nyah, nyah THIS TIME may I confess I missed a FOURTH proof text making bankers distinctly sinful and that makes the acceptance of sinners on their terms right ... doesn't it ? :

And if thy brother be waxen poor, and his means fail with thee; then thou shalt uphold him: as a stranger and a settler shall he live with thee. Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase. (Leviticus, 25:35-37)

Steady Johnny, steady - don't stoop to my level.

[ 23. July 2008, 10:21: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Comper's Child, Louise and Mousethief, I'm sorry I've offended you. How would you suggest I get round the injunction in I Cor 5:9-11 (which applies also to thieves, drunks, gluttons etc), given that I sincerely believe that same-sex sexual relationships fall under that injunction? Serious question; I'd rather like to get round it if I can.

I'd suggest that you get around the injunctions against practising homosexuals the same way you get around the injunctions against all the other kinds of sinners you know, which is to ignore them unless they start actively hurting you or people near to you. Unless you're seriously suggesting that you don't know any sinners.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Matt Black

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Oh I know plenty. Particularly when I look in the mirror.

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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Oh I know plenty. Particularly when I look in the mirror.

So you won't be associating with yourself then? Pardon my snarkiness. I was, in fact insulted, but accept your apology.

Why do we need to pick up bits of Paul out of context? Does every remark he makes, regardless of its value in the particular circumstances, become universally applicable?

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Matt Black

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Does it make a difference as to whether the sinner is penitent or not? Should it?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Comper's Child
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Well, I for one, am very penitent for my sins which are numerous. I am not certain, however, as to exactly what they all are. So the general confession is very helpful to me on that point. Our current one has the phrase "known and unknown".
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Matt Black

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OK, so applying that to, say, +VGR, am I to regard him as penitent or impenitent, and does/should this make a difference?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Comper's Child
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I can't say. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. There is no one I would completely shun, who I felt was sincerely trying to follow Christ.
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mousethief

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I don't see how it's our job to determine who is penitent and who is unpenitent. I agree Paul's words are a pain in the neck. But I always try to remember that in reading his letters I'm reading somebody else's mail, and can't automatically assume that what he says to them applies to me. The early NT communities are quite different from our current-day churches.

It may well be that if I were in a communal living arrangement with a bunch of other people, I might feel it my sad duty to toss out somebody who is not upholding the community's agreed-upon rules. That seems to be a more comparable situation to the one Paul is addressing than anything in the vast majority of churches today. In which, it seems to me, it is simply not any of my business what the particular sins of another are, unless I am their spiritual advisor or parent or somebody else in the sort of relationship with them that would in fact make it my business.

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Matt Black

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Thanks; that's helpful.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
"Bigot"? Where did I say anything remotely like that? Now you're just putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head.

How about?

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I've already given a pretty good argument on this point; it really doesn't appear to me that you've taken it in, because you are so very invested in your own perspective. Of course, it does take thinking about these things for longer than 5 minutes - and having a bit of an openish mind - I will acknowledge.

...

Just in case anybody might be interested - obviously unlike Johnny here - in actually reading the links I've provided on this thread and others,

...

What you're saying is that you won't listen to anything that you don't personally care for and don't already believe in.

It looks like a duck, sounds like one, even waddles like one, but apparently isn't actually a duck.

As I thought, you can't, in fact, point to anyplace where I've called you a "bigot."

What really does puzzle me is your inability to co-exist with a point of view that's not your own; why get so worked up over the fact that I have come to a different conclusion about this issue? You're not necessarily right, you know, just because you think you are - and I'm not necessarily wrong. And I don't think it's very good form to ridicule people who disagree with you - especially on a subject about which there is very little in the way of evidence to support any argument. I mean, what gives you such confidence that you and you alone have come to the correct conclusion about this and are actually making "arguments" - while the rest of us are deluded cretins merely "flailing wildly"?

Good grief. Even scientists can't claim to be so utterly sure of their conclusions - and they usually have a lot more evidence in front of them than we have here.

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
You're not necessarily right, you know, just because you think you are - and I'm not necessarily wrong.

The sad irony of all this is that I have never claimed that I was right. I was trying (and failing obviously) to get you to admit that you may be wrong.

However, it is clear that this is going nowhere. So I'll leave for you all to wrestle with what is obviously a very painful issue for many. [Votive]

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
You're not necessarily right, you know, just because you think you are - and I'm not necessarily wrong.

The sad irony of all this is that I have never claimed that I was right. I was trying (and failing obviously) to get you to admit that you may be wrong.

However, it is clear that this is going nowhere. So I'll leave for you all to wrestle with what is obviously a very painful issue for many. [Votive]

I really do need to point out that here again, the insularity and arrogance of your point of view shows up.

You seem to believe that I take the position I do because this is a "painful issue." IOW, I'm ducking the "serious questions" (just as I'm not "engaging with the arguments") because I can't handle them. Well, no; my point of view is a considered one that I've come to over a long period of time - and I think it's a lot more accurate than yours, to be frank.

Again: I'm interested in "truth," not in "inclusion." You seem unable to recognize this, and it shows up in the fact that you have been responding on all these threads to things I haven't said or claimed. You are not listening to what I'm saying, IOW; you're stuck in some culture wars argument inside your head (a good example of this is that you think I'm calling you a "bigot" when I haven't even come close to saying that). I'm trying to get you to actually look at the facts - but you won't, just like you won't answer any of my questions.

Lastly: do you really think I haven't considered the things you're saying, or thought that "I may be wrong"? Good grief. Every gay person has had to deal with these issues ad nauseum since the moment they realized they were gay. Also: I'm not the person here who's been ridiculing the views of others - "I wish I could pull it out of the hat like that!", for instance, and "let's not get on that carousel again"; you're the one who's been doing this.

It could just be, you know, that you may be the one who's wrong here, and that you are the one who ought to consider this - or at least to "engage" with my arguments here for once (not to dismiss them as non-arguments), and answer even one question I ask. I will note here, though, that "getting others to admit they're wrong" does indeed seem to be a time-honored activity among religious people; Christians, anyway. That's a big part of the problem, in fact - and one that Christ certainly addressed over and over again; he kept telling us not to worry about the sins of others, but to look to ourselves.

I realize your last post was meant to be a peace offering, but I'm sorry: I'm sick of the crap.

[ 24. July 2008, 13:27: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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Martin60
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Don't stop now, please, guys. Johnny. I'm sure you wouldn't any way. This is all very moving.

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Love wins

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
OK, so applying that to, say, +VGR, am I to regard him as penitent or impenitent, and does/should this make a difference?

Difference to what?

Whether or not you would choose to appoint him as a pastor over a church or churches? Or seek hinm out as a spiritual advisor? I guess it would make a difference to that.

Whether or not you would remain in a church over which he was a pastor? That's a different question. Whether or not you would accept communion at his hands? Or ordination? Or baptism?

Whether or not you would pray for him? If he is a wolf in shepherd's clothing then he is our enemy and we are commanded to pray for our enemies.

Whether or not you would talk to him, have dinner with him, buy him a drink, accept a drink from him, invite him into your home? Are you likely to be doing those things anyway?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Martin60
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Your penultimate paragraph has been on my mind with regard to Gene Robinson and his apologists here, Ken.

They are not in fellowship. Not in communion. Not in the body of Christ. By definition.

They've temporarily lost the battle and declared victory in a deluded act of cognitive dissonance - they've been classically brainwashed and not by merely human means, even though they are winning the numbers game and following society and have its approval.

Their suffering is ghastly. They will learn from it. But not yet. Not from the orthodox, who are weak too.

They will learn in the resurrection only.

As will we all. The orthodox too. The orthodox to whom ONLY it can be said 'Depart from me I neve knew you.'.

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Love wins

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Geneviève

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
OK, so applying that to, say, +VGR, am I to regard him as penitent or impenitent, and does/should this make a difference?

Think of your question this way Matt: obviously you are a sinner (as we all are). Guess I need to know if you are penitent or impenitent, and decide whether or not that should make a difference in your being allowed on the Ship.

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
They are not in fellowship. Not in communion. Not in the body of Christ. By definition.

I wonder who died and made you in charge of deciding who is or isn't in the body of Christ?

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
OK, so applying that to, say, +VGR, am I to regard him as penitent or impenitent, and does/should this make a difference?

Difference to what?

Whether or not you would choose to appoint him as a pastor over a church or churches? Or seek hinm out as a spiritual advisor? I guess it would make a difference to that.

Very probably.

quote:
Whether or not you would remain in a church over which he was a pastor? That's a different question. Whether or not you would accept communion at his hands? Or ordination? Or baptism?

Don't know. Possibly.
quote:
Whether or not you would pray for him? If he is a wolf in shepherd's clothing then he is our enemy and we are commanded to pray for our enemies.
This would make no difference to me. I don't regard him as the 'enemy', just misguided, and doubtless he would repay that compliment to me.

quote:
Whether or not you would talk to him, have dinner with him, buy him a drink, accept a drink from him, invite him into your home? Are you likely to be doing those things anyway?
I'd gladly do all of those things.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
OK, so applying that to, say, +VGR, am I to regard him as penitent or impenitent, and does/should this make a difference?

Think of your question this way Matt: obviously you are a sinner (as we all are). Guess I need to know if you are penitent or impenitent, and decide whether or not that should make a difference in your being allowed on the Ship.
OK, a real life example, taking us back to dear old St Paul: I like a tipple. From time to time I overdo it and get drunk; a weakness of mine. So, I would fall under the category of 'drunkard' as far as St Paul is concerned. Now, I'll gladly hold my hands up when I do that and say "Whoops! I've sinned. I need to repent and seek God's forgiveness." Very possibly I might also need to apologise to the people I was with the previous evening as I can be a bit of a jerk when I'm loaded. The moment however I stand up the next morning with my hangover and say "Hey, I'm a pisshead and God says that's OK", then you can ask for me to be barred from the Ship if you want.

[ 25. July 2008, 08:59: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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The Great Gumby

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So what if you're standing up and saying "Hey, I'm a judgmental bastard and God says that's OK"? What if I think God definitely doesn't like judgmental bastards?

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Matt Black

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Ah, but wouldn't you be a judgmental bastard for thinking I was one?

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The Great Gumby

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Touché! [Big Grin]

The point I'm trying to make is that you want to avoid communion with gays who believe God has no problem with what they're doing, because you believe they're wrong, even if they see no problem with it. Unfortunately, the same argument could be applied to your beliefs (or mine, or anyone else's) about all sorts of things, because none of us agree about everything, and we all act according to our different beliefs.

So you either have everyone out of communion with everyone else, because they're impenitent owners of icons, or impenitent Sunday drivers, or impenitent wearers of oatmeal cassock-albs, or you need to pull your big girl panties up (but in a very butch, hetero kind of way, obviously) and accept that we can honestly disagree without having to excommunicate each other over whether we should drink tea or coffee after the service.

[ETA: Missing word]

[ 25. July 2008, 10:15: Message edited by: The Great Gumby ]

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

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Matt Black

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So it's the old 'broad church' -v- narrow, fundamentalist, we-only-break-bread-with-people-wearing-the-same-colour-trousers sect debate?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Curiosity killed ...

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And the how-do-we-choose-which-bits-of-the-Bible are taken literally and absolutely and which with reason and interpretation.

Matt, if this helps, my attitude to a lot of things is really it is not my problem. It is not my problem whether someone feels that being in a homosexual relationship is not sinning. It is their consciences and their relationship with God, not mine. My problem is my own sins and trying to resolve those, and solving problems for those people who I am in a position of pastoral care for*, but not someone I rub along with in normal life. They are adults with free will and they have to make their own decisions and live with them, like you, me and all the rest of us miserable sinners.

*we are talking teaching here.

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Martin60
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The bible Mousethief. It's NOTHING to do with me. Or you.

All it takes is orthodoxy.

The starting point.

Believe it or not I'm moved to tears by TubaMirum, very disturbed all round but compelled to continue with this under grace, realising it's extremely dangerous territory, but can we invoke neutral ground, under the mercy?

To be confronted by the God of the bible is ... to be appalled. Terrified, nauseated. Gay or straight.

And extremely understandable to deny. To rebel.

Our 'hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, yeah who can know it' according to the God of record.

The more subtle, sublime, liberal, civilized, sensitive, troubled, beguiled, deceived and deceitful we are.

I'm anxious, moved, disturbed by TubaMirum who has suffered and suffers yet and here am I adding to the suffering.

I'm not happy with that, weak and hypocritical and undisciplined that I am.

But I know what is written. I know that Jesus is the same yesterday, as the killer God of the OT and as the promise of death for denying Him in the NT, today and forever.

And has the narrowest of 'views' on sexual expression.

And that we are to trust Him.

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Love wins

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Low Treason
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# 11924

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
OK, so applying that to, say, +VGR, am I to regard him as penitent or impenitent, and does/should this make a difference?

Think of your question this way Matt: obviously you are a sinner (as we all are). Guess I need to know if you are penitent or impenitent, and decide whether or not that should make a difference in your being allowed on the Ship.
OK, a real life example, taking us back to dear old St Paul: I like a tipple. From time to time I overdo it and get drunk; a weakness of mine. So, I would fall under the category of 'drunkard' as far as St Paul is concerned. Now, I'll gladly hold my hands up when I do that and say "Whoops! I've sinned. I need to repent and seek God's forgiveness." Very possibly I might also need to apologise to the people I was with the previous evening as I can be a bit of a jerk when I'm loaded. The moment however I stand up the next morning with my hangover and say "Hey, I'm a pisshead and God says that's OK", then you can ask for me to be barred from the Ship if you want.
Interesting point, MB.

If I understand you correctly, you are stating that you are a sinner who goes out and gets a skinful from time-to-time, but you realise you're a sinner and repent every time you get a hangover. Then you ask forgiveness and apologise to those you have offended.

But I guess from your use of the phrase 'from time to time' and of the present tense, that you never get as far as the 'sin no more' part.

So in effect are you actually saying that it is OK to go and get drunk, as long as you repent (temporarily) afterwards?

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The Great Gumby

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quote:
So it's the old 'broad church' -v- narrow, fundamentalist, we-only-break-bread-with-people-wearing-the-same-colour-trousers sect debate?
If you like, but I'd hoped it would come over as rather more nuanced than that. Ah well, you can't always get what you want.

I suppose it's a sort of "do unto others" thing. If I thought, for example, that you were in error to earn interest on savings, I'm sure you'd rather our discussions were mutually respectful, examining the issue carefully and thoughtfully, accepting and considering each other's viewpoint in good faith, rather than me telling you that you're an impenitent sinner, and that I can't possibly share communion with you.

You're right that it's important to have proper discussions, and not to sweep things under the carpet or turn a blind eye to serious sin, but ultimately, I'd rather leave matters like this to the individual's conscience. If they're wrong, God's the judge, and He's big enough to sort it out for Himself.

[X-post]

[ 25. July 2008, 11:08: Message edited by: The Great Gumby ]

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And the how-do-we-choose-which-bits-of-the-Bible are taken literally and absolutely and which with reason and interpretation.

Matt, if this helps, my attitude to a lot of things is really it is not my problem. It is not my problem whether someone feels that being in a homosexual relationship is not sinning. It is their consciences and their relationship with God, not mine. My problem is my own sins and trying to resolve those, and solving problems for those people who I am in a position of pastoral care for*, but not someone I rub along with in normal life. They are adults with free will and they have to make their own decisions and live with them, like you, me and all the rest of us miserable sinners.

*we are talking teaching here.

That is helpful. Thank you.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
OK, so applying that to, say, +VGR, am I to regard him as penitent or impenitent, and does/should this make a difference?

Think of your question this way Matt: obviously you are a sinner (as we all are). Guess I need to know if you are penitent or impenitent, and decide whether or not that should make a difference in your being allowed on the Ship.
OK, a real life example, taking us back to dear old St Paul: I like a tipple. From time to time I overdo it and get drunk; a weakness of mine. So, I would fall under the category of 'drunkard' as far as St Paul is concerned. Now, I'll gladly hold my hands up when I do that and say "Whoops! I've sinned. I need to repent and seek God's forgiveness." Very possibly I might also need to apologise to the people I was with the previous evening as I can be a bit of a jerk when I'm loaded. The moment however I stand up the next morning with my hangover and say "Hey, I'm a pisshead and God says that's OK", then you can ask for me to be barred from the Ship if you want.
Interesting point, MB.

If I understand you correctly, you are stating that you are a sinner who goes out and gets a skinful from time-to-time, but you realise you're a sinner and repent every time you get a hangover. Then you ask forgiveness and apologise to those you have offended.

But I guess from your use of the phrase 'from time to time' and of the present tense, that you never get as far as the 'sin no more' part.

So in effect are you actually saying that it is OK to go and get drunk, as long as you repent (temporarily) afterwards?

No, it's not OK. My hope would be that the repentance would be permanent and, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, one day I have confidence in God it will be. But it's not OK.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
They are not in fellowship. Not in communion. Not in the body of Christ. By definition.

I wonder who died and made you in charge of deciding who is or isn't in the body of Christ?
He claims to have access to what he calls 'The God of record' but it sounds like a cracked old vinyl to me.

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

All it takes is orthodoxy.

A topic on which I am more prepared to take MT's word than yours, I'm afraid.

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mousethief

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Orthodoxy? What do I know about that?

I do know that people interpret the Bible differently, and to say that YOUR interpretation is "What the Bible says" and somebody else's ISN'T, as if you know this as a fact and not a matter of opinion, is the height of arrogance and ignorance. Both of which conditions I am intimately familiar with.

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Martin60
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Me too. They are also simple. Very, very simple. I'm a simple man MT. A simplistic one. A proud one. A weak one. A stupid one. An arrogant one. All true in spades. And I do insist. I do insist that I interpret minimally. You have to interpret far more. I can't. It's me corpus callosum I'm sure. I can't do it. Well I can, but what's the point? Where does one end? Once you start to rationalize away the nasty bits in your own image where do you finish?

We can all invoke Wittgenstein but that ends in Hamlet.

For me it's all or nothing. The God of record, or Dawkins. Gods of my imagination don't work. Of my projected idealized self.

If I'm wrong and He's your Zaphod God, there's no harm done ... surely? Because He certainly puts up with near infinite harm, nastiness any way. This nice God. But without any way being responsible for it. So my nastiness, my blaspheming Him by believing Him can't possibly add to the hurt.

Although the Zaphod God is a very, very strange one. And fails the basic tests of theodicy. Certainly isn't in any meaningful way omnipotent.

Surely?

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Martin60
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# 368

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DODdy, you'd take the Herterodox' word on orthodoxy?

How ... droll.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Me too. They are also simple. Very, very simple. I'm a simple man MT. A simplistic one. A proud one. A weak one. A stupid one. An arrogant one. All true in spades. And I do insist. I do insist that I interpret minimally. You have to interpret far more. I can't.

WRONG. You interpret just as much as I do. You just don't admit it.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Mousethief.

This is a MOST open response. Believe me, please. HOW? Where?

Despite our enormous epistemological, cultural and dispositional differences we can do this. YOU are smart enough. Not UP to my level. To stoop DOWN to mine.

My exemplar approach is to ask how you interpret the writings of Moses. In particular the utterly uncompromising threatening and lethal stuff. The stuff that portrays God as a bronze-age tribal chief, an externalization of the times, and then some. A ritualist somewhat beyond Masonic and High Church proportions. A sexual conservative. Bourgeois, non-un-anti-bohemian in terms of sexual expression. If it moves, it's taboo. A genocide. A witch burner.

Interpretation isn't the word you are looking for my dear. He said in his MOST patronizing sexism. It's epistemology. Driven, in every one, including me though I don't see it, not by the desire for truth, but disposition.

By sin [Smile]

So c'mon girl, talk ... down to me.

My wife would go ballistic if she saw that line. Even though she swears I'm gay.

[ 26. July 2008, 12:16: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Love wins

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
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I don't really think he needs to talk down to you. Your epistemology, for all its self-professed palaeo-conservatism, is postmodernism of a sort which would go down a storm with the cool kidz in cultural studies departments. All our interpretations are to do with power, we can't help it, poor things that we are. Truth don't enter into it....

If which view is true, of course, nobody needs to talk down to you, or otherwise engage with you. You are simply expressing your disposition, exerting power, being sinful, whatever. You are not asserting anything which we have any reason to believe to be true, or discussion of which could lead us towards truth. So we don't need to care about it.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Interpretation isn't the word you are looking for my dear.

Yes, I am. And at this point unreflective, patronizing, and insufferable.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Is that the royal we DODdy?

You sure he ain't a she?

So please feel free to follow your own advice, which I won't, lest you be a hypocrite.

I'm a faithful and true witness for my sins.

If I have power, it comes from being given the truth.

Ah, but is it the true truth eh?

What's your truth DODdy? Been bitten by any in the arse recently? [Smile]

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Love wins

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vw man
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# 13951

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AT one time I could not understand how a person could be both a christian and gay ,but now I am not sure I have met people in the church with real faith,claim to be born again, the most important thing is one's relationship with Christ,It is up to God to convict,God is also against divorce that is more of a problem in the church than homosexality
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Martin60
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# 368

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We're all certainly all over the place in our understandings. The spectrum of people God is working with is beyond my ken. Including tormented brainwashed rebels like Eugene Robinson who has gone beyond cognitive dissonance to reinventing God in his enslaved image. He is too intelligent not to think that he might be wrong. And many, many truly faithful, towering pillars of orthodox, faithful, loving, kind, patient, obedience and discipline who also happen to be thoroughly, ALSO unlike me, homosexual.

I have been and am a turn round the corner from being the vilest of sinners, an utter hypocrite in fetters of the vilest weakness. I don't have the character and courage of Robinson. I don't have his ... innocence. So his intelligence isn't enough, not in the face of the trauma of going through cognitive dissonance to the degree he has.

He has suffered much and could take no more, as many here.

God will deliver them ALL. But they will have to suffer much in bondage yet. There is much worse to come. The worst ever. Reinventing God can't stop it.

It is written.

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Love wins

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The Blessed Pangolin
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# 13623

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This whole "God of record" strikes me as a highly dubious proposition, as He seems to have hired some dodgy secretaries over the years. The God of the OT is indeed one demanding, formidable, and frightful God, but that's only if you completely trust the secretary's report. It is not my 'projection on to the screen' when I have an inkling of God other than simply the Mosaic God; it's something at which I've arrived after contemplation and meditation on the Gospels. Perhaps it's the heretical influence of the Quakers on me (sorry - bad joke), but I cannot square Martin PC's wrathful God with my own experience of being guided by the spirit.

And, as for anyone talking down to anyone else, if anyone once more refers to being gay as enslavement, they're in for a Hell call, and then shall truly know wrath. I'm tired of brooking that condescension.

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leo
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# 1458

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Good post.

Martin's posts are uniformly odd and his view of God is not mainline Christianity.

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Comper's Child
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# 10580

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Martin speaks in a language I simply do not comprehend. What I think I hear him say is so terribly sad and so unlike the God I worship and have come to love.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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Well, Martin seems to reflect a fundamentalist approach to Scripture (the "Record", I suppose). If you see the Bible in that manner, you may well come up with the conclusions Martin has done. His apparent views tend to put me in mind of Jehovah's Witnesses.
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