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Source: (consider it) Thread: biblical inerrancy
Jamat
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# 11621

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@Martin 60:
I am sick of this particular game of whackamole.After this, I will not be repeating myself. It is obvious that we disagree..peace good Capulet!
quote:
Please quote that big assumption by anyone on this thread, especially me.
The continued use of ‘Ptolemaic’ suggests that any conservative theology is superseded by present knowledge. This assumption is disputed.
quote:
You necessarily do (create a faulty iconoclastic systematic theology) because of your assumption above. A judge who murders..
That is like saying the dispenser of justice or the one charged with pronouncing sentence, is guilty of the crime he pronounces sentence for. Not true.
quote:
There is no scientific basis for saying that the rocks lie. I couldn't care less on who believes what, that is no authority for me unless it is based on science.
You are reposing a lot of trust in Science then. Science is limited knowledge, a moving target. Your own precious evolutionary assumptions viz, that macro evolution occurred, are not proven, and untestable. Dinos are..how old? Why did Mary Schweitzer fine real blood in a T Rex bone? Dating methods? Why such variations and just using the dates that suit our assumptions? Scientists are humans who tenaciously cling to careers. Berlinski is amusing on this. The penalty for publicly doubting evolution is academic Siberia.
quote:
I'm reinventing nothing.
It seems to me you are. Jesus as a cuddle toy is not the Biblical Jesus
quote:
The concept of an afterlife where deeds are weighed in the balance is entirely pagan.
Very disputable. I’m reminded of the fate of Korah who went down alive to Sheol. The Jews did have a concept of afterlife that is very evident in the Psalms. To say they got it from paganism is to assert something unproven.
quote:
We killed Jesus on God's behalf then.
I think we would’ve but the text clearly says he released his own spirit before that happened. Roman hands crucified Jesus but crucifixion did not kill him. Interestingly no one is ever held accountable for the death of Jesus which is probably because he chose where and when to die.
quote:
I think you are mistaken in that.. In what way?
Because on balance he is far from the monster you caricature. I recently reread the creation story. Nature was very good, Man was provided for as were all living things. There is no need IMV to justify a being who reached out of eternity to provide an undeserved salvation to a humanity who pretty well all deserve judgement. John 3:16.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Steve Langton
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# 17601

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by mr cheesy;
quote:
That sounds very unlikely given that the main proponents of PSA lived since the Reformation.
And apart from the Anabaptists most of the Reformers carried on doing the 'Christian state' thing....
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Jamat
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# 11621

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In case interested:Berlinski

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
]You are reposing a lot of trust in Science then. Science is limited knowledge, a moving target. Your own precious evolutionary assumptions viz, that macro evolution occurred, are not proven, and untestable. Dinos are..how old? Why did Mary Schweitzer fine real blood in a T Rex bone? Dating methods? Why such variations and just using the dates that suit our assumptions? Scientists are humans who tenaciously cling to careers. Berlinski is amusing on this. The penalty for publicly doubting evolution is academic Siberia.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the depth of sedimentary rock. Hint: geology is not based on evolutionary theory. Try again.

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arse

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

Originally posted by Jamat:
@Martin 60:
I am sick of this particular game of whackamole.[ ]After this, I will not be repeating myself. It is obvious that we disagree..peace good Capulet!

No you're not as you will continue to post incoherent rhetoric on this thread.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

quote:

Martin60: Please quote that big assumption by anyone on this thread, especially me.


quote:

Jamat: The continued use of ‘Ptolemaic’ suggests that any conservative theology is superseded by present knowledge.

How? What present knowledge?
quote:

Jamat: This assumption is disputed.

A straw one you just made up. How appropriate.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

quote:
You necessarily do (create a faulty iconoclastic systematic theology) because of your assumption above. A judge who murders..

That is like saying the dispenser of justice or the one charged with pronouncing sentence, is guilty of the crime he pronounces sentence for. Not true.

Why are you quoting yourself as if it were me and then disagreeing with yourself?

And you are incorrect in your disagreement with yourself in so many ways this is starting to be amusing upon amusing and I'm afraid I'll start laughing all down my trouser leg.

Justice: I don't like my ant farm any more. I'll drown it after showing it a bucket.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

quote:

There is no scientific basis for saying that the rocks lie. I couldn't care less on who believes what, that is no authority for me unless it is based on science.

You are reposing a lot of trust in Science then.

No less than you as you show below.
quote:

Science is limited knowledge, a moving target.

Correct.
quote:

Your own precious evolutionary assumptions viz, that macro evolution occurred, are not proven, and untestable.

The rocks can't lie.
quote:

Dinos are..how old?

Old.
quote:

Why did Mary Schweitzer fine real blood in a T Rex bone?

Science.
quote:

Dating methods?

What about them?
quote:

Why such variations

What variations?
quote:

and just using the dates that suit our assumptions?

What dates, what assumptions?
quote:

Scientists are humans who tenaciously cling to careers.

You gave up yours easily then?
quote:

Berlinski is amusing on this. The penalty for publicly doubting evolution is academic Siberia.

Rightfully so. It isn't funny when a scientist finally loses what's left of his broken his mind. Poor guy.

[ 11. October 2016, 10:20: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:

quote:

I'm reinventing nothing.

It seems to me you are.

Then you seem wrong.
quote:

Jesus as a cuddle toy is not the Biblical Jesus

Indeed not, just as He isn't the barely restrained genocidal maniac of all time who can taste it with the blood in His mouth, who can feel the rod of iron in His twitching hand.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
quote:
The concept of an afterlife where deeds are weighed in the balance is entirely pagan.
Very disputable.
How?
quote:
I’m reminded of the fate of Korah who went down alive to Sheol.
When your God ate him yes. Sorry what's that got to do with the afterlife?
quote:
The Jews did have a concept of afterlife that is very evident in the Psalms.
Which is what?
quote:
To say they got it from paganism is to assert something unproven.
It is to assert the obvious. Where else did Jews, Christians and Muslims ALL get the same idea from?

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
quote:
We killed Jesus on God's behalf then.
I think we would’ve but the text clearly says he released his own spirit before that happened.
It clearly shows no such thing.
quote:
Roman hands crucified Jesus but crucifixion did not kill him.
Yes obviously the spear thrust finished Him off.
quote:

Interestingly no one is ever held accountable for the death of Jesus which is probably because he chose where and when to die.

I thought you were?

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
quote:
I think you are mistaken in that.. In what way?
Because on balance he is far from the monster you caricature.
In what way is the ultimate murderer so far, yet alone yet to come a caricature by me? That's your God.
quote:
I recently reread the creation story. Nature was very good, Man was provided for as were all living things. There is no need IMV to justify a being who reached out of eternity to provide an undeserved salvation to a humanity who pretty well all deserve judgement. John 3:16.
No need to justify the greatest act of mass murder in all of myth let alone the vastly greater yet to come? Your view is noted.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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Martin, is there a reason why you think it necessary to post so many times before anyone else can get a word in edgeways?

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arse

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Martin60
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Sorry, it's one reply in effect to one incoherent post by Jamat.

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Love wins

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Alan Cresswell

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It seems that the Death of Darwinism hasn't died. I've taken the liberty of taking the dinosaur blood tangent over there.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

PANTS ON FIRE! It's the ROCKS that lie!

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Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

She found what shouldn't be there 80mill years later. Iron acts like formaldehyde? So what? If the argument is that iron could have done this then it is circular. Ie We KNOW how old, therefore blah blah. Findings are multiply confirmed since 2005. I'm sure she's right BTW but this is geologic time..quite a stretch.

Karl, I respect your view (ie the fact that you hold it not the content of it )and also those of other Christians who believe as you. To me evolution is denied by scripture besides being obvious bullshit and an emperor with no clothes.
I am not BTW, convinced or impressed by creationism as an 'ism'.

@Martin60. Tell it to the hand. I'm done.

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lilBuddha
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The bible is not a science book, nor was it meant to be. It is not a challenge to faith to accept this, but a weakness to reject it.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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mr cheesy
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One thing I find interesting about this particular mindset compared to others is how sticky it is and how it resists efforts to contextualise.

For example, I'm reading a novel where the main character is a Maasai living in the city. I don't know much about Maasai, but according to the novel they have a complex and well-developed mythical worldview including quite an odd (to our ears) Nativity-type birth narrative.

The character in the novel is depicted as being a bit torn by circumstance, but has obviously contextualised his upbringing - so he accepts the stories as being part of his identity without the rigid insistence that Ntemelua really did pop out of his mother's womb with full command of the language and then disappear up a cow's bottom to hide from bandits.

The details about the Maasai may be wrong, I have no idea. But I'm sure there is a truth here about how myths and traditions are held and contextualised in the face of other realities.

--------------------
arse

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

She found what shouldn't be there 80mill years later. Iron acts like formaldehyde? So what? If the argument is that iron could have done this then it is circular. Ie We KNOW how old, therefore blah blah. Findings are multiply confirmed since 2005. I'm sure she's right BTW but this is geologic time..quite a stretch.

Karl, I respect your view (ie the fact that you hold it not the content of it )and also those of other Christians who believe as you. To me evolution is denied by scripture besides being obvious bullshit and an emperor with no clothes.
I am not BTW, convinced or impressed by creationism as an 'ism'.

@Martin60. Tell it to the hand. I'm done.

You obviously aren't made, you're still here, the greatest scientist of the age using the greatest science text ever written for all time to disprove all subsequent false science.

The rocks don't lie.

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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You may be fearfully and wonderfully maDe, maTe ...

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The bible is not a science book, nor was it meant to be. It is not a challenge to faith to accept this, but a weakness to reject it.

[Overused] There is no room, no need for faith whatsoever with flat, cookbook, Ptolemaic woodenism.

The rocks don't lie.

[ 12. October 2016, 09:39: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The bible is not a science book, nor was it meant to be. It is not a challenge to faith to accept this, but a weakness to reject it.

I'm reminded of what Oscar Hammerstein had Anna tell the King of Siam: "Your Majesty, the Bible was not written by men of science, but by men of faith. It was their explanation of the miracle of creation, which is the same miracle—whether it took six days or many centuries."

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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So simple Nick, so simple. And to invert it destroys it. Creates tohu and bohu. Authors confusion.

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So simple Nick, so simple. And to invert it destroys it. Creates tohu and bohu. Authors confusion.

Sorry, but I have no clue what that means.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Nick Tamen

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Sorry for the double post, but I missed the edit window. I know what tohu and bohu are. I just can't quite grasp the point you're making.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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The apology is mine Nick.

If we say "Your Majesty, the Bible was not written by men of science, but by men of faith inspired scientifically accurately, supernaturally by God who ran the movie in their, in fact his, Moses', head. It was not their, his explanation of the miracle of creation, which is not the same miracle—whether it took six days or many centuries.".

The elegance, the beauty, the simplicity is gone. Destroyed.

"waste and void," "formless and empty," or "chaos and desolation."

Such a mangled, weak, hostile narrative creates confusion. Fear.

God is not the author of that.

Any better?

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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Much better. Thanks!

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
One thing I find interesting about this particular mindset compared to others is how sticky it is and how it resists efforts to contextualise.

For example, I'm reading a novel where the main character is a Maasai living in the city. I don't know much about Maasai, but according to the novel they have a complex and well-developed mythical worldview including quite an odd (to our ears) Nativity-type birth narrative.

The character in the novel is depicted as being a bit torn by circumstance, but has obviously contextualised his upbringing - so he accepts the stories as being part of his identity without the rigid insistence that Ntemelua really did pop out of his mother's womb with full command of the language and then disappear up a cow's bottom to hide from bandits.

The details about the Maasai may be wrong, I have no idea. But I'm sure there is a truth here about how myths and traditions are held and contextualised in the face of other realities.

I remember Dawkins talking about a savage believing that a stream in the forest worked because of a hamadryad (he should have said a naiad, but I'm - wrongly I'm sure - sure he said hamadryad, which is a forest spirit admittedly). The savage is given a full scientific education all the way up to fluid dynamics which he passes with honours. When asked if fluid dynamics now fully explained how a stream in the woods works, the savage replied yes, that's how the naiad did it.

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Love wins

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Louise
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bumping up for housekeeping reasons

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Jamat
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quote:
Gamaliel wrote on a different thread on July 10:
Here's a question ...

Why DOES the Bible have to be internally consistent?

How does it make it any less the Bible if it isn't?

Why should we expect it to be internally consistent? Because of divine inspiration?

If something is divinely inspired then does it have to be internally consistent at every conceivable point otherwise its divine inspiration can be called into question?

How does that work?

The Bible isn't the Quran or the Book of Mormon. It wasn't 'dictated'. It didn't drop from the sky ready formed.

I can see what Jamat is getting at when he accuses folk here of acting as if they have 'evolved' to a higher plane or level of understanding - but I'm not sure that's what's going on here.

It's more a case of Jamat's overly rigid and inflexibly literalist approach fitting the stereotype to a tee.

Or am I missing something?

Well, you have a list of the usual suspects most of which are not really what they seem when carefully scrutinised. One example is the differing genealogies in Mathew and Luke. Another may be the 14 generations in Matthew 1:17 that turn out to be 13 generations.

I think that if you can dent the Bible by proving it is self-contradictory, then you also dent its credibility so it is important.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

I think that if you can dent the Bible by proving it is self-contradictory, then you also dent its credibility so it is important.

It dents its own credibility, no assistance necessary.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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The Bible's credibility doesn't depend on its being internally consistent at every conceivable point.

Why should it?

Why should the whole thing unravel if there are different accounts of the same event or if some of the details in the genealogies don't 'match' exactly?

How does that in any way undermine its status as the holy scriptures of the Christian faith?

It only does so if you insist upon it doing so.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

How does that in any way undermine its status as the holy scriptures of the Christian faith?

It only does so if you insist upon it doing so.

I've often thought that those who are interested in inerrancy have a very limited understanding of truth - to the extent that if it was possible to prove the bible incorrect on anything, in any way, that'd prove it wasn't really from God at all. But that seems to downplay the ability of things to be true without (for example) having happened.

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arse

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Gamaliel
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Indeed.

If it can be shown to be inconsistent at one point, however minuscule, then the whole edifice must come crashing down and great would be the fall thereof ...

Hence the constant attempts to shore things up by trying to squeeze them into place and make them fit.

My understanding of joists and beams is limited, but I suspect there has to be a bit of 'give' otherwise they'd collapse. I read somewhere about how much the Severn Bridge and suspension bridges of considerable span expand and contract during the course of a day - it was quite considerable.

If they didn't, they'd snap.

Inerrantists seem to want to ratchet everything to a high state of torsion such that any many adjustment makes the whole thing snap.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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IMO, it is a weak faith that can endure no test.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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A writer friend of mine insists upon seeking, deep in the texts of novels, sentences that he says will utterly undermine your faith if read. (His own books are, he says, free of this.) I suggested that he is a delicate daisy indeed, if his faith can be overset by such subtleties, and that most people are more robust in their religion. He hasn't spoken to me since.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Indeed.

If it can be shown to be inconsistent at one point, however minuscule, then the whole edifice must come crashing down and great would be the fall thereof ...

Blogger Fred Clark wrote a piece a while back about a classmate's crisis of faith when confronted with artifacts older than the Creationist universe, and touched on a similar theme.

quote:
The most dangerous thing about fundamentalism is not that it sometimes teaches wacky ideas, like that the world is barely 6,000 years old or that dancing is sinful. The most dangerous thing is that it insists that such ideas are all inviolably necessary components of the faith. Each such idea, every aspect of their faith, is regarded as a keystone without which everything else they believe — the existence of a loving God, the assurance of pardon, the possibility of a moral or meaningful life — crumbles into meaninglessness.

My classmate's church taught him that their supposedly "literal" reading of Genesis 1 was the necessary complement to their "literal" reading of the rest of the Bible, which they regarded as the entire and only basis for their faith. His belief in 6-day, young-earth creationism was not merely some disputable piece of adiaphora, such as …

Well, for such fundamentalists there is no "such as." This is why they cling to every aspect of their belief system with such desperate ferocity. Should even the smallest piece be cast into doubt, they believe, the entire structure would crumble like the walls of Jericho. If dancing is not a sin, or if the authorship of Isaiah turns out to involve more than a single person at one time, or if the moons of Jupiter present a microcosm that suggests a heliocentric solar system, then suddenly nothing is true, their "whole groundwork cracks, and the earth opens to abysses."

This was, roughly, what was going on in my poor classmate's head as he stared at those rocks, which had been carefully put in place by some ancient citizen of Jericho thousands of years before the tiny literal god of the fundies had gotten around to creating the universe.

The rest is worth a read.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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I've heard creationists describing what they do as evangelism. Which is.. um.. interesting.

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arse

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Soror Magna
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Even if the Bible were inerrant, people certainly aren't.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Ricardus
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To me the interesting question is how the more obvious discrepancies didn't get edited out.

Faced with two competing genealogies of Jesus, the Church Fathers had the option of only selecting one of the gospels as canonical. Or they could have used a harmonised form of the gospels such as the Diatesseron, which omits the genealogies. Or they could have chopped off the verses with the genealogies in (I think there was some awareness of textual variation in gospel manuscripts even at that date).

But they decided to leave both genealogies in place. Which suggests either a.) the elaborate arguments to prove that there isn't a contradiction (e.g. because one genealogy is Mary's) are in fact correct, or b.) the aim of the game wasn't strict factual accuracy, so the Church Fathers weren't that bothered.

And similarly with the differences between Samuel and Chronicles. There must be a reason why, despite already having a comprehensive history of Israel and Judah in Samuel / Kings, the Jews thought 'Ooh, let's add this new-fangled Chronicles to the list as well'.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
or b.) the aim of the game wasn't strict factual accuracy, so the Church Fathers weren't that bothered.

Especially since all evidence points to this inerrancy/infallibility nonsense is extremely recent.

[ 11. July 2017, 05:35: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
To me the interesting question is how the more obvious discrepancies didn't get edited out.

Faced with two competing genealogies of Jesus, the Church Fathers had the option of only selecting one of the gospels as canonical. Or they could have used a harmonised form of the gospels such as the Diatesseron, which omits the genealogies. Or they could have chopped off the verses with the genealogies in (I think there was some awareness of textual variation in gospel manuscripts even at that date).

But they decided to leave both genealogies in place. Which suggests either a.) the elaborate arguments to prove that there isn't a contradiction (e.g. because one genealogy is Mary's) are in fact correct, or b.) the aim of the game wasn't strict factual accuracy, so the Church Fathers weren't that bothered.

And similarly with the differences between Samuel and Chronicles. There must be a reason why, despite already having a comprehensive history of Israel and Judah in Samuel / Kings, the Jews thought 'Ooh, let's add this new-fangled Chronicles to the list as well'.

There's a clue for the last one; the older conception seems to see God as the author of good and evil; there's a scene somewhere about God asking for a volunteer lying spirit to go and confuse one of the Kings; details elude me. Hence it's God who decides to bring trouble on Israel and move David to take a census. Chronicles represents a more dualist understanding; God is no longer author of evil and so it's Satan who gets this job in the parallel version in Chronicles.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The Bible's credibility doesn't depend on its being internally consistent at every conceivable point.

Why should it?

Why should the whole thing unravel if there are different accounts of the same event or if some of the details in the genealogies don't 'match' exactly?

How does that in any way undermine its status as the holy scriptures of the Christian faith?

It only does so if you insist upon it doing so.

When I think of what the Bible signifies to me no semantic ideas are complete enough to do it justice anyway. I do not doubt that it deals in facts but our realities go way beyond facts and defy language.

I find it more like a perfect storm. It tests you and finds you out. It rejects your complacency. It shows accuracy concerning extremes of human behaviour and it projects the ultimate reality of a being whom creation, including humanity, must either acknowledge or, to its cost, refuse to acknowledge.

[ 11. July 2017, 22:52: Message edited by: Louise ]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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Sure. What makes you think I don't have similar reactions, thoughts and impressions when I read the scriptures?

We don't have to have a completely internally-consistent set of scriptures to approach the Bible in the way you've just described.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Blogger Fred Clark wrote a piece a while back about a classmate's crisis of faith when confronted with artifacts older than the Creationist universe, and touched on a similar theme.

Thanks for this! Good reading.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Chronicles represents a more dualist understanding; God is no longer author of evil and so it's Satan who gets this job in the parallel version in Chronicles.

Indeed - and what interests me also is that having adopted this more dualist view, they kept hold of the non-dualist account as well.

It's almost as if they didn't regard either account as definitive or the last word on the matter ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure. What makes you think I don't have similar reactions, thoughts and impressions when I read the scriptures?

We don't have to have a completely internally-consistent set of scriptures to approach the Bible in the way you've just described.

I do not..and your second statement if I read you correctly is suggesting that no hermeneutical system is universally agreed? Well that is not exactly a newsflash.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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Fair enough.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



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