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Source: (consider it) Thread: biblical inerrancy
ChristinaMarie
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# 1013

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quote:
Originally posted by Sean D:
I wanted to respond to something Leprechaun said in the "God the pathological killer" thread in purgatory but thought it probably would be too tangential there so here it is:

quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun in a purgatory thread:
Progressive revelation = OT incomplete BUT NOT MISTAKEN.

This distinction doesn't really work.

  • The OT writers did not know everything God was eventually going to reveal about himself.
  • They therefore believed some things about God which God was later to reveal were not the only side of the story.
  • This lack of fuller revelation inevitably means that they are de facto mistaken about stuff.

A good example might be the idea in Deuteronomy and elsewhere in Torah that punishment for sins will be visited by Yahweh on several generations after the sinner. This is explicitly countermanded by both Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

Another one is the idea in early wisdom lit (mostly in Proverbs but also see Psalm 37) that a moral life is rewarded with a good and happy life. This is corrected by Job, which notes drastic exceptions to this accepted truth.

The problem with these examples is that they are general examples that do not apply in every case. Unfortunately I think inerrancy leads one to believe they do apply in every case.

In one sense it isn't true that God visits sins down the generations, but in another sense it is true. Ask any psychotherapist. If a family teaches bad ways of living to its children, it gets passed down the generations until someone decides to break the chain. It is the same with good ways.

God is inerrant, nothing else is, I believe.

God is infallible, nothing else is, I believe.

How does 'God is Love' fit in with the 'pathological God' passages? Well, put yourself in their shoes (or sandals) back then. Enemies all around. Wouldn't God be someone who protects you and helps you in battle? I can see their point, but where it is written that God commnanded the Israelites to slaughter everyone including women and children, I cannot accept that really was God. My relationship with God says otherwise, granted the fuller revelation we have received, plus the different life situation.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I cannot imagine God being displeased with someone taking the most charitable view of Him, rather than accepting things about Him that are very hard to swallow because they do not fit: 'God is Love'.

If the Bible is a spiritual book that has to be spiritually discerned, does that mean:

1. It is inerrant, so one has to believe everything in it, within its context and genre?

or

2. One has to discern what is true in it?

Love
Christina

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Sean D
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quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
The problem with these examples is that they are general examples that do not apply in every case. Unfortunately I think inerrancy leads one to believe they do apply in every case.

I guess so. I was citing the examples, however, to make the explicit point that the Bible itself revises these "truths" about God. Thus, the incompleteness of revelation here leads to actual misinformation about what God is like/what he said, which in the fullness of revelation is corrected. Therefore, whilst Scripture as a whole reveals God one cannot pick these passages on their own and say they are accurate, without reference to the rest of Scripture.

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postpostevangelical
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Fish Fish
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Well, I think my time has come. I think in many ways we're reaching stalemate, and coming full circle in many discussions. So I think its time for me to retire, and get back to work! But I'd like to thank you all for helping me think through the issues of inerrancy much more than I ever have done before.

Cheers everyone.

[Big Grin]

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ken
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# 2460

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So that's it then Fish?

You pick up your toys and walk off?

After only 27 pages of this thread?

What will we do with our evenings now?

Mine's a pint.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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AARGH! I thought it was starting up againnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Ultra confused]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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And to think....

Only 4 more pages and we'd be up there with "Christianity and homosexuality" [Snigger] [Snigger]

Best stop now then [Big Grin]

Seriously though, thanks FF, Lep, Matt et al, for a stimulating debate. I know it's made me think! You're all [Angel] [Angel] s

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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dyfrig
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# 15

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Is the Ship inerrant?

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Is the Ship inerrant?
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"An unproofread sig is not worht psoting" - Scorates

No, judging by your sig.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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dyfrig
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My sig is inerrant in all matters of faith and those things that are essential for salvation. It does not claim to be a definitive handbook on spelling.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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And, seriously, with apologies for those who'd prefer to not see anything else posted on this thread, I've been musing on the progressive revelation thing.

First, I would consider incomplete to be, though not necessarily mistake, imperfect and errant (in that some important information is missing). As we all (I assume) accept that the OT is incomplete, in that the NT exists, and especially because in terms of revelation of the nature of God the incarnation is vital. It follows that the OT on it's own is imperfect.

So, it follows ISTM, that inerrancy, if it can be applied at all, can only be applied to the complete revelation of God in it's entirety. Though, that leads to the conclusion that an individual part of that revelation can still be in error without affecting the inerrancy of the whole. Is that making sense?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Psyduck

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Yes indeed! A bunch of us ministers were talking about this very thing last week.


(AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH!!! It's starting up again!!!)

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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dyfrig
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

So, it follows ISTM, that inerrancy, if it can be applied at all, can only be applied to the complete revelation of God in it's entirety.

There's an interesting, if dense, essay by Rowan Williams in his book "On Christian Theology" where he makes the point that all claims about God are, by definition, incomplete and themselves subject to God's judgement; no-one can speak fully of God, and that the Church or any group within it does so at its own peril. Theology - expressed in prayer, praxis, worship, scripture, etc - cannot speak fully because it is not God, so theology can only really be trusted when it acknowledges that it cannot do this.and allows for the fact of its provisional and incomplete nature.

So, unless you are actually God, you can't actually speak the whole truth.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Isn't what Alan's describing infallibility rather than inerrancy?

Or is it one step further? The revelation of God is only infallible/inerrant/as complete as it can be when you take all of it - Scripture, Tradition, the Word made Flesh...

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Yes, it probably is more to do with infallibility than inerrancy. After all, I'm happy to agree to statements of faith refering to "infallibility of Scripture" but wouldn't do so if it said "inerrancy of Scripture". And, yes, people have told me before that that seems to be splitting hairs.

And, yes, I did leave the argument where I did inorder to see if people would take it to the logical conclusion that we don't have the complete inerrant revelation of God ... and won't have until "we fully know, just as we're fully known"

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Matt Black

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AAAAARGH! This thread won't die!!!!!!

Seriously, thanks to Jape for your kind comments, which are reciprocated ref all of you.

Yours in Christ

Matt

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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quote:
There's an interesting, if dense, essay by Rowan Williams in his book "On Christian Theology" where he makes the point that all claims about God are, by definition, incomplete and themselves subject to God's judgement; no-one can speak fully of God, and that the Church or any group within it does so at its own peril.
Did this put anyone else in mind of I Corinthians?

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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Or even - what I meant - I Corinthians 13 ...?

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Alan Cresswell

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Well, since something said around then led me to a line of thought which concluded with a quote from that chapter, yes there is a possibility that that passage had come to my mind.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
Well, I think my time has come. I think in many ways we're reaching stalemate, and coming full circle in many discussions.

Who could have seen it coming?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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GreyFace
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Nice one, Mousethief. I have friends that think Americans don't get irony. Isn't it ironic?

FF, Lep, MB et al, thanks for keeping going so long, but I too am disappointed that we haven't managed to dislodge the other thread from the top of the post count list.

Can't we drag it out for a few more pages?

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
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Saidyc, how can you be sure that 1 Corinthians 13 can be so authoritative?

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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'Cos it's really nice, and makes me feel good. [Big Grin]

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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"HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"
"HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"
"HELLOOOOO!"
"Hello.."
"Hell...ooo..........."


[Echoes die away. Footsteps recede into distance. A fading voice is heard singing softly:]

"It's quarter to three, there's no one in the place
Except you and me...."

Fade to black...

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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GreyFace
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# 4682

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Trouble is, I think the inerrantists have up and left.

It's all a plot, I tell you.

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mousethief

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Oh sure the current crop have up and left but more will be along presently.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Is that an inerrant announcement MT?
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GreyFace
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# 4682

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An analysis of this thread provides significant evidence in support of the theory.
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Psyduck

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# 2270

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I think MT is probably making his claim, and maybe even asserting its inerrancy, on the basis of faith, GreyFace. [Big Grin]

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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...and anyway, we're only 4 pages behind the Homosexuality and Christianity thread now, so here's hoping!

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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GreyFace
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# 4682

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We need Watchman back. That would be good for another 15 pages or so.
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mousethief

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It was a statement of probability based on past experience, Alan.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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Well, I kinda' miss 'em... As a card-carrying Protestant, with a correctly installed Calvinist Superego™ I'm always fretting that I don't take Scripture seriously enough. Fencing with these guys - who whatever else one might say, do take Scripture very seriously - reassured me that I do. [Axe murder] [Paranoid] [Ultra confused]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

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Er... that we ALL do.... [Big Grin]


Psyduck: Double-Posting for the Honour of our Thread...

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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mousethief

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# 953

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Or to keep Mousethief's feet out of his throat. [Devil]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
Well, I kinda' miss 'em....
I'm always fretting that I don't take Scripture seriously enough. Fencing with these guys - who whatever else one might say, do take Scripture very seriously - reassured me that I do. [Axe murder] [Paranoid] [Ultra confused]

You're toying with me now...just toying with me. Will.not.get.into.this.again....
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mousethief

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# 953

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It's toying with you to claim that we take scripture as seriously as you do? I hope that's not what you meant, L, but that certainly is how it came across.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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Get your feet out of his throat, Mousethief. I'm pretty clear that's not what he meant.

You don't have an infallible interpretation of the guy's meaning, you know! [Biased]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Leprechaun

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# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
It's toying with you to claim that we take scripture as seriously as you do? I hope that's not what you meant, L, but that certainly is how it came across.

Calm down, calm down Mr sensitive. Just pointing out that you were all sorely tempting me to come back onto this thread. Which I said I wouldn't do. But you've succeeded. I have. AAAAAAAARGH!
[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
You don't have an infallible interpretation of the guy's meaning, you know! [Biased]

Granted but only because we orthodox don't use the weasel-word "infallible."

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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You mean you have no concept of infallibility, but if you had, you'd be infallible? [Eek!] How do you know...??? [Ultra confused]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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See, Leprechaun, now MT and I are toying with each other... [Biased]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Oh come now we'd never do that, would we?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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See - you're toying with me... [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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"When Dead Horses Decompose..."

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
"When Dead Horses Decompose..."

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

David
naughtily, has not actually read all 27 pages previous to this, he just saw it in "today's posts" and had to see what it was about...

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ...psyduck...:
See - you're toying with me... [Roll Eyes]

It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Ouch. [Mad]

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

Posts: 672 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682

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Welcome back FF, and happy Easter. Sincerely! Don't look at me like that [Paranoid] [Biased]

I'm off on holiday for a week - please keep the debate going while I'm gone. Here's your topical opener - I believe that those who believe the Resurrection is spiritual and not physical, are still Christians even though a) it contradicts the plain reading of Scripture, b) I disagree with them, but not inerrantly.

That contains enough hooks for another four pages, surely.

Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Grey Face
quote:
please keep the debate going while I'm gone.
[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682

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Nobody wants to play [Waterworks]
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged



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