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Source: (consider it) Thread: biblical inerrancy
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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On the Darwin thread, Jamat said:

quote:
If it was a person we were talking about I'd agree with you; but consider where does that kind of attitude get you? God is not genocidal. 'Man,' if he did the same thing would be. That kind of category error somehow seeks to judge God on our terms and we simply are not in the position of knowledge or power to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by JRR Tolkien

'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?'

'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'

Where does that kind of attitude get me? Is that the right question to ask? I'm sure it leads me to a better place than being cool with mass slaughter of innocents, if nothing else.

[ 04. December 2014, 11:55: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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mousethief

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If you can look at the Pentateuch and Joshua and say "God is not genocidal" then you have redefined the word "genocidal" to no longer mean what it has always meant.

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Martin60
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The trouble is Karl, 3000 years ago the judgement of men about God's judgement was firmly enmired in mud and blood. As it was by Christian men just a hundred ago from the Atlantic to the Urals. The tide that then went south ... and east in that region. A tide that's building up in the east from where it's got nowhere to go.

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Love wins

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Horseman Bree
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's entirely up to you mate.

And anadromously, how can one be sophisticatedly inerrantist about the God revealed in Jesus ordering the genocide of the Amalekites through His most faithful prophet Samuel?

I used to be able to do it.

Lost the knack.

Is there a way back?

Why would you want to go back? Something that is demonstrably foolish will continue to be foolish, whether you are "back" or not.

[ 04. December 2014, 21:02: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

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It's Not That Simple

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Martin60
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Don't worry 'aitch Bree. I was being ironic. Heraclitus applies. Or even if the light goes off, you know what you saw.

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Love wins

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Nenya
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Is there a way back?

No. Only forwards. But you don't walk alone.

Thank you, Louise, for bumping this thread. I kept finding it, getting partway through it and then losing it again. I now have hope that I'll manage to read it all.

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Jamat
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Cary Article if anyone interested.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
On the Darwin thread, Jamat said:

quote:
If it was a person we were talking about I'd agree with you; but consider where does that kind of attitude get you? God is not genocidal. 'Man,' if he did the same thing would be. That kind of category error somehow seeks to judge God on our terms and we simply are not in the position of knowledge or power to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by JRR Tolkien

'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?'

'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'

Where does that kind of attitude get me? Is that the right question to ask? I'm sure it leads me to a better place than being cool with mass slaughter of innocents, if nothing else.

Love the Tolkien quote.
So what is the right question? If you look at any line of enquiry you see where it leads. Your answer to this question determines your whole view of God viz Can I accept the Biblical God or not. On current understandings you clearly can't as God as the OT (and much of the NT) presents him is not the God of love we envisage. So what to do? shut the door or keep it open a crack?

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
So the point of all this is? Or do you just want me to tell you you are right? You are, but so am I in this instance. Can we leave it there?

No, you're not right. You're claiming that you can simply discriminate between bits of the Bible that are literal descriptions and bits that are metaphorical descriptions, without reference to independent knowledge (e.g. classical astronomy, modern evolution, basic botany). And in order to do this you have to put forward a theory of metaphor and simile that is not true.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
So the point of all this is? Or do you just want me to tell you you are right? You are, but so am I in this instance. Can we leave it there?

No, you're not right. You're claiming that you can simply discriminate between bits of the Bible that are literal descriptions and bits that are metaphorical descriptions, without reference to independent knowledge (e.g. classical astronomy, modern evolution, basic botany). And in order to do this you have to put forward a theory of metaphor and simile that is not true.
Whatever.

[Snore]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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At least he got this right: 'The story of Rahab's family escaping the Canaanite genocide is, like the story of the Flood, the story of what did not happen.'.

Even if the Jews massacred the Canaanites. Which I'm sure they did.

I've shared his Zionism too. I look forward to him being pruned of it.

[ 05. December 2014, 10:32: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Jamat
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Thanks for reading it Martin. I think Zionist is a bit strong. You don't have to be a Zionist to see that the OT scriptures have a particular Jewish POV. I guess if for you historicity is in question that's a different issue but assuming You think Canaan was conquered, why doubt the Rahab story? Are you not just selectively choosing what you want to justify?
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Horseman Bree
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Are you not just selectively choosing what you want to justify?

Don't we all, inerrantists, errantists, newbies, elders, theologians, atheists....?

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It's Not That Simple

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Martin60
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Because it's a self serving and transcendent myth 3400 years old, predicated on the first myth: of redemptive violence.

Why didn't he believe it?

Even though he's a Zionist? As only Christian literalists can be.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Cary Article if anyone interested.

That must be one if the worst teachings I've ever read. Combination of "don't worry your pretty little head about things you cannot understand" and " Yes, he beat other women horrifically, but marry him anyway because they deserved it".
It does nothing to explain how an All-Powerful, Omnicient, All-Loving GOD can do naught to lead a people down the right path save have them all killed.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
... Are you not just selectively choosing what you want to justify?

From your link:
quote:
... (re: the Old Testament commandments:)
We read them and believe them to be the Word of God, but we don't try to put all of them into practice.

So it's all the word of God, with some words being more equal than others. Glad that's settled.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
... Are you not just selectively choosing what you want to justify?

From your link:
quote:
... (re: the Old Testament commandments:)
We read them and believe them to be the Word of God, but we don't try to put all of them into practice.

So it's all the word of God, with some words being more equal than others. Glad that's settled.

You may possibly know this but there were
613 commandments in the Torah and no one could keep them all and yes, that settled something because as Paul said: "for by the law comes the knowledge of sin". But these were given to Jews so in the OT the way to come into relationship with God was to become Jewish and if you didn't you were toast but you could, like Rahab did or Ruth did, join the Lord's people. Now of course it is not about keeping the Torah but rather joining oneself to Christ who was the only human ever to keep it perfectly. That's I guess why we call it good news the righteousness of the law is imputed to the ones who belong to Jesus. [Smile]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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itsarumdo
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Isn't there a big difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT?

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Isn't there a big difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT?

God doesn't change, of course.

But our perception of God changes all the time. For example, the prophets and priests in the OT each had very different views of God.

Anything written of God is from human perspective - so we can't expect consistency or inerrancy, either Biblical or otherwise.

We have to use our own wisdom and sense to decide what is right.

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Martin60
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The Books are not a cookbook. Not flat.

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Love wins

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Isn't there a big difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT?

No - and there's more wrath and judgement in the NT than the OT details here

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Isn't there a big difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT?

God doesn't change, of course.

But our perception of God changes all the time. For example, the prophets and priests in the OT each had very different views of God.

Anything written of God is from human perspective - so we can't expect consistency or inerrancy, either Biblical or otherwise.

We have to use our own wisdom and sense to decide what is right.

You are right Boogie about us. We are terribly subject to fashion, intellectual and otherwise. But God as Leo points out to be God must be consistent despite this. Of course if he is a creation of human subjectivity then all bets on consistency are off. One of the problems for the latter view is what to do with inconvenient texts in scripture since it remains quite stubborn in its assertions. The problem becomes how to make scripture line up with our latest PC version of what God should be like.

[ 07. December 2014, 18:07: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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lilBuddha
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PC version of God. That appears a bit dismissive of the very real inconsistencies in the bible that many sincere Christians struggle with.
If the Bible is literal, God is an insecure, petulant, ineffective bastard. This judgement is rendered by the only resources we puny humans have with which to engage anything.

And, as you have admitted there are parts of the bible which are figurative, you purported approach is not literal. You are very much choosing which bits you like and which you don't.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Martin60
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If the Bible is flat then God is not known in Jesus.

God is a lie in Jesus.

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Love wins

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Jamat
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3c8ch9
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
PC version of God. That appears a bit dismissive of the very real inconsistencies in the bible that many sincere Christians struggle with.
If the Bible is literal, God is an insecure, petulant, ineffective bastard. This judgement is rendered by the only resources we puny humans have with which to engage anything.

And, as you have admitted there are parts of the bible which are figurative, you purported approach is not literal. You are very much choosing which bits you like and which you don't.

Why are you to so determined that figurative and literal are mutually exclusive cast iron categories? That particular bone was never my choice of battle ground. ( sorry for mixing the metaphors.) If you want to look at inconsistencies that's fair enough. What inconsistencies particularly bug you?
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Martin60
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You say they are.

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Love wins

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Pre-cambrian
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Of course if he is a creation of human subjectivity then all bets on consistency are off. One of the problems for the latter view is what to do with inconvenient texts in scripture since it remains quite stubborn in its assertions.

I think you've got this the wrong way round. If God is a creation of human subjectivity then inconsistency is very easy to deal with. It's simply a case of what each human writer felt a god ought to be like. Then it's easy to dismiss what they say as the spoutings of a bigot on a bad day. (Yes, and bigots often say the same things; modern politics shows how they cling together.)

It's when you are taking the inerrancy route that you have a problem. Then you have the difficulty of: an apparently genocidal god; that you believe really did order these things; that you still consider worthy of worship; who should be the exemplar of human behaviour; but nevertheless we are expected to believe that you are not a physical threat to the rest of society.

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Of course if he is a creation of human subjectivity then all bets on consistency are off. One of the problems for the latter view is what to do with inconvenient texts in scripture since it remains quite stubborn in its assertions.

I think you've got this the wrong way round. If God is a creation of human subjectivity then inconsistency is very easy to deal with. It's simply a case of what each human writer felt a god ought to be like. Then it's easy to dismiss what they say as the spoutings of a bigot on a bad day. (Yes, and bigots often say the same things; modern politics shows how they cling together.)

It's when you are taking the inerrancy route that you have a problem. Then you have the difficulty of: an apparently genocidal god; that you believe really did order these things; that you still consider worthy of worship; who should be the exemplar of human behaviour; but nevertheless we are expected to believe that you are not a physical threat to the rest of society.

But that totally depends on what you mean by inerrancy. Incidentally,if you want to be very afraid of someone's beliefs you'd be better to target the jihadist lot, people with a real track record of intolerance, violence and genocide.

[ 07. December 2014, 23:02: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Of course if he is a creation of human subjectivity then all bets on consistency are off. One of the problems for the latter view is what to do with inconvenient texts in scripture since it remains quite stubborn in its assertions.

I think you've got this the wrong way round. If God is a creation of human subjectivity then inconsistency is very easy to deal with. It's simply a case of what each human writer felt a god ought to be like. Then it's easy to dismiss what they say as the spoutings of a bigot on a bad day. (Yes, and bigots often say the same things; modern politics shows how they cling together.)

It's when you are taking the inerrancy route that you have a problem. Then you have the difficulty of: an apparently genocidal god; that you believe really did order these things; that you still consider worthy of worship; who should be the exemplar of human behaviour; but nevertheless we are expected to believe that you are not a physical threat to the rest of society.

Well, that's silly. Biblical inerrantists believe that genocide, to paraphrase Will Cuppy, was morally acceptable around 1000 BC but not before or since. There are arguments against that (to put it politely) but I don't worry about the likes of Jamat crying havoc and letting slip the Dogs of War. I think that genocide is always and everywhere wrong but if someone tells me that God made an exception to that rule 3000 years ago, I may scratch my head in puzzlement but I feel no need to regard them as a physical threat to society.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You say they are.

Your legendary ramblings are sometimes comprehensible but not on this occasion.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The problem becomes how to make scripture line up with our latest PC version of what God should be like.

Not at all.

The task is to work out what God is like and what is right from our own judgement and from what other people say. That includes the writers of the Bible.

There are many people we can turn to for help with this, of course - but none of them are infallible or inerrant.

'Tis the nature of life as a human - life is uncertain in every respect. Once we accept that we are half way towards working out how to live our lives.

<speelung>

[ 08. December 2014, 10:36: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Gee D
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Boogie is right. The proper question is not whether scripture is inerrant, but which interpretations of it are errant. And I'd suggest that head of the errant list are those which start with the 6 day Creation and move forward from there.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
PC version of God. That appears a bit dismissive of the very real inconsistencies in the bible that many sincere Christians struggle with.

We're used to this particular bit of belittling, to be honest. We get it a lot. If it's PC to have issues with genocide, then it seems to me that PC is a damned good thing. What's the alternative? Being cool with mass slaughter? No thanks.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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MSHB
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Boogie is right. The proper question is not whether scripture is inerrant, but which interpretations of it are errant. And I'd suggest that head of the errant list are those which start with the 6 day Creation and move forward from there.

I am not even sure where we could get an inerrant interpretation. Catholics rightly point out that, if you want inerrant interpretation, you have to have an inerrant church teaching authority (a.k.a Pope), and not just an inerrant book. An inerrant book is useless as the source of inerrant truth without an inerrant reader/interpreter.

If you don't want to submit to a pope and his interpretation, then errancy seems to be the only alternative. Of course, many Protestants prefer to submit to popes, but they call their popes "Pastor".

But yes, some interpretations seem more errant than others, and those interpretations that ignore the possible range of literary types and insist that every passage of the Bible be treated as eye-witness historical record (e.g. Genesis 1-3) are candidates for top place on the errancy list.

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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade

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Martin60
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"Why are you to so determined that figurative [Genesis] and literal [science] are mutually exclusive cast iron categories?"

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Love wins

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Horseman Bree
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Quoth Jamat:
quote:
But that totally depends on what you mean by inerrancy. Incidentally,if you want to be very afraid of someone's beliefs you'd be better to target the jihadist lot, people with a real track record of intolerance, violence and genocide.

Just so long as you include the real chance that Christians have shown that they can also be just as "intolerant, violent and genocidal", and that within living memory, if not actually at this moment. All they need is for one sect or cult to get a modicum of political power. Not all "jihadis" are Muslim, so stop throwing mud at other people.

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It's Not That Simple

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lilBuddha
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Inconsistencies Jamat?
How about Kill your disobedient children v. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?
Or genocide of the infidels v. The Good Samaritan?

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Quoth Jamat: [QUOTE] stop throwing mud at other people.

What? personal aspersions? I wish you well Horseman Bree and also Karl who has read 'belittling' into something I said.
Both of you have a wonderful Christmas. [Smile]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Inconsistencies Jamat?
How about Kill your disobedient children v. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?
Or genocide of the infidels v. The Good Samaritan?

I do not really get the issue as these things are contextual. I wouldn't quibble about the difference between a Mosaic injunction and Jesus' admonition as I think Moses is superseded by him. Nevertheless, there are lots of places we can find inconsistencies. I think the issue is how we deal with them.
Incidentally,in case it is not clear,(not that it signifies much,) I am not a legalistic inerrantist. I think I see the Bible as 'Holy Word' rather than some kind of Black/white road code document.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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Good, so you have no problem with the literal - evolution - and the figurative - Genesis.

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Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The problem becomes how to make scripture line up with our latest PC version of what God should be like.

Not at all.

The task is to work out what God is like and what is right from our own judgement and from what other people say. That includes the writers of the Bible.

There are many people we can turn to for help with this, of course - but none of them are infallible or inerrant.

'Tis the nature of life as a human - life is uncertain in every respect. Once we accept that we are half way towards working out how to live our lives.

<speelung>

For all practical purposes I agree with you Boogie. Most of the time we look at our own moral radar and the scripture and maybe some discussion and we get where we want to go. The problem is when that isn't enough. Many have their traditions to fall back on at this point I suppose.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Good, so you have no problem with the literal - evolution - and the figurative - Genesis.

I still don't understand what your beef is Martin.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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I don't have one. You do.

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Love wins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I am not even sure where we could get an inerrant interpretation. Catholics rightly point out that, if you want inerrant interpretation, you have to have an inerrant church teaching authority (a.k.a Pope), and not just an inerrant book. An inerrant book is useless as the source of inerrant truth without an inerrant reader/interpreter.

If you don't want to submit to a pope and his interpretation, then errancy seems to be the only alternative. Of course, many Protestants prefer to submit to popes, but they call their popes "Pastor".

But yes, some interpretations seem more errant than others, and those interpretations that ignore the possible range of literary types and insist that every passage of the Bible be treated as eye-witness historical record (e.g. Genesis 1-3) are candidates for top place on the errancy list.

That's just silly. There is no inerrancy in any human regardless of your's or their assertion about it.

The protestant and pope comment seems just bizarre.

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\_(ツ)_/

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't have one. You do.

What is it then? words of one syllable would help. You already know I believe Adam was real as we need him for Christ to be real. I have no problem with people believing in evolution if they want to. It is the biggest metaphor of the last 2 centuries IMV. Do I have any other problems in your view? if not then cheers and a joyous festive season to you.
Jamat

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Gee D
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MSHB, keep going - you're headed in the right direction there. How does any of us know which is the inerrant interpretation?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Martin60
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We don't. You do. So you have to declare the literal truth a lie.

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Love wins

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Gee D
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Martin60, is the "you" in your post directed at me? I've certainly not claimed that I know the inerrant interpretation - and would not make that claim. I do know that I am suspicious of those who make that sort of claim based upon an understanding that has very few, if any, other adherents; or is one reliant upon the sudden discovery by the author of a hitherto secret document.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Martin60
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'strewth Gee D! I see how you could easily link what I said to your comment, but look up.

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Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We don't. You do. So you have to declare the literal truth a lie.

Why is that Martin? I have stated that figurative does not in my view preclude literal. They are not mutually exclusive ( except to some of the iconoclasts round here.)

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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