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Source: (consider it) Thread: biblical inerrancy
Barnabas62
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Martin60, Jamat

Being involved in the thread, I'll confine myself to this.

Feel free to PM one another, but back on debate now, please

B62, DH Host

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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Sir.

Back on track, Jamat, as you refute none of my extrapolation, unless it's a matter of not dignifying it with a denial, it has to be true.

On an Izzard tangent, what was God doing before 6020 years ago? How did He spend eternity?

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Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And how does Original Sin make me culpable of anything?

I do not think it does. Your inability (and mine)to live up to our best ideals though is not explained by anything else.
Please do not refer again to my wife who will probably be treading on my ashes in forgetfulness. She may well read these posts.(not cross or nothin)

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And how does Original Sin make me culpable of anything?

I do not think it does. Your inability (and mine)to live up to our best ideals though is not explained by anything else.
Please do not refer again to my wife who will probably be treading on my ashes in forgetfulness. She may well read these posts.(not cross or nothin)

We do not need original sin to explain anything. It explains nothing at all. Existing does. The rock clad fact of evolution does.

And I'm sorry my words went home. That you are trapped in this nightmare of projected weakness and ignorance. It's nobody's fault. Although it's God's responsibility and He will fix it. But not in this life. There's nothing can be done as you're too old to change your thinking: it just can't happen past 60, apart from in the odd remarkable epiphany like Aquinas'.

Fear stops you being free in Christ.

So stay away from here. You came to refine your wooden Ptolemaic orrery but it's starting to splinter in your mind's eye.

God is NOT a psychopath.

God will not murder your loved ones.

The God that you can't even know who made.

The God that you can't know what He was up to 6020 years ago.

When it's staring you in the face.

Leave it mate. Get on with being a grandfather. Stop feeding yourself this insane filth.

Because it's ending in tears isn't it?

I should feel worse, but I'm afraid I don't. You are out of your depth here in every way. Be nice to your wife.

The trouble is, it's a compulsion isn't it? I have the other side of that same coin. We'll have to take this to Hell I'm sure. I will if you continue.

[ 09. October 2016, 13:45: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Louise
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

And I'm sorry my words went home. That you are trapped in this nightmare of projected weakness and ignorance. It's nobody's fault. Although it's God's responsibility and He will fix it. But not in this life. There's nothing can be done as you're too old to change your thinking: it just can't happen past 60, apart from in the odd remarkable epiphany like Aquinas'.

Fear stops you being free in Christ.

So stay away from here. You came to refine your wooden Ptolemaic orrery but it's starting to splinter in your mind's eye.

...

Leave it mate. Get on with being a grandfather. Stop feeding yourself this insane filth.

Because it's ending in tears isn't it?

I should feel worse, but I'm afraid I don't. You are out of your depth here in every way. Be nice to your wife.

The trouble is, it's a compulsion isn't it? I have the other side of that same coin. We'll have to take this to Hell I'm sure. I will if you continue.

hosting

This is far too personal for a non Hell board and saying you're going to take it to Hell after posting a personalised attack like this does not allow you a free swipe. Please do not post anything further along these lines. I will also be drawing this to the attention of the admins.

Louise
Dead Horses Host

hosting off

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Martin60
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I am sorry Louise. To you as host. I accept the severe consequences - the anticipation of which have had a viscerally strong impact - of course. My desperation to get through to Jamat got the better of me. I tried to copy prior to deleting to edit offline, I should have used preview. Again, my apologies.

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Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Martin 60: You come here to refine your Ptolemaic wooden orrery.
Love that word orrery, what does it mean?
The big assumption here is that God has not actually revealed anything about himself. Let’s assume that ‘Ptolemy’ was correct, ie his cosmology was not in error, what then? The real Ptolemy was soundly refuted but you have not refuted anything you have rejected despite what you may think. God is God of the Bible. If he is not then we have no axioms about which to describe him he is at the mercy of human imagination. However, I and folk like me do not necessarily use the Bible to create an iconoclastic and faulty systematic theology. It is definitely Biblical that God certainly has 2 sides but if we see him as judge we can also see him as Father, both are in there.

Despite your eternal assertions that the rocks do not lie, you resist all possibility that there is more than one way to look at the rocks, that while many agree with you, huge numbers of people actually reject your assumptions. You persist in asserting that where you were, your so called cult, worshiped a ‘killer’ God, and that anyone with a conservative stance toward the Bible, must do likewise, hence your crusade.

Perhaps I could point out that this web site is a small pool of clever people most of whom have set agendas, their own ‘Ptolemaic’ theologies and limited experiential knowledge of God. It is a happy place for people who mostly agree with each other. There’s nothing wrong with that of course.

You have never answered or tried to answer questions or issues about post modernism preferring a polemic about the killer God. I made a request of you which you have ignored. Could I make this again? (still not cross.) No need to call me to hell and if you do I will ignore.
A view like yours which tries to reinvent what you walked away from, in an acceptable form, is not something I could see as a possibility.
quote:
Martin 60: You confirm the spiritualized temporary abrogation of God's killer instinct in Christ whom He killed instead of us in the ancient Egyptian scales of cosmic justice. Strictly God the Father only killed that once. Jesus did all the killing up to His incarnation and will do one hundred times as much at His return. What's the theology behind the mandatory pacifism that you must logically believe in since the Incarnation? Killing is now so holy since God killed His Son that only God can do it?
OK lets unpack. Do correct me if I misunderstand:

Christ was a real human guy not spiritualised.

There is no temporary abrogation. God's nature is consistent. What changes is the way he deals with us after Christ came.

God, according to the apostle John, is love.

There is nothing Egyptian about any of these concepts. The Hebrews’ thinking is not Egyptian. Your assertion here is not justified.

The concept of 'God as killer' is yours and your pejorative creation. God is creator of life, John’s gospel says of Jesus, ‘in him was life and that life was the light of man.’

Pacifism has nothing to do with the case.

The crucifixion was not about God Killing Jesus. This is not true according to scripture. Jesus voluntarily laid down his life. What the father did was accept this laying down of his perfect son as a sin offering. The reason for this was so that yours and my sin should be not charged to us.
quote:
Martin 60: Your God, Jamat, as was mine,
No, your discarded God is not mine. You have rejected what you think is a supernatural monstrosity. I think you are mistaken in that.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Steve Langton
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1) "Orrery"
A scientific model of the Solar System, with the Sun on top of a shaft and below it the planets, each in turn on rods and gears so that when you turn a crank the planets revolve round the Sun. Named I think from the Earl of Orrery in Ireland.

They were popular as representations of the new Copernican view of the cosmos.

2)"God killed Jesus" is a bit of a mis-statement in terms of orthodox Trinitarian theology. The notion of God as Judge with Jesus as a 'penal substitute' certainly reflects things that happened quite often in ancient legal systems, and so is quite a good image for some aspects of Atonement - but I'd suggest that in the NT it's not the primary imagery.

In the NT I'd see the primary image as one of debt - our sins have damaged God's creation, including other men and ourselves, and the root of sin is an attempt to kind of steal ourselves from God and make ourselves rulers in our lives. The damage this does needs to be paid for and we don't have the resources - so God forgives.

As in everyday life, there is no such thing as 'just forgiving'; if someone breaks your window and you forgive him, that's going to mean you pay for the broken window. Likewise God forgiving us means He foots the bill for the damage caused by sin - and Jesus' death is the 'on earth where we can see it and understand it through the preparations made in Jewish history and culture' bit of God doing that.

God inflicting such harm on an innocent third party would be wildly unjust, even if the third party volunteered, and also it wouldn't be true forgiveness, more like God demanding his 'pound of flesh' but not really caring who pays. This is why 'unitarianism' isn't, in Christian terms, a workable theology. But because God is in fact 'triune', it is God Himself who becomes incarnate in Jesus to foot the bill by SELF-sacrifice. God is Love, and this is how he shows it, in a way that challenges us to understand the situation and repent of the sins that have caused the death of Jesus....

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:


2)"God killed Jesus" is a bit of a mis-statement in terms of orthodox Trinitarian theology. The notion of God as Judge with Jesus as a 'penal substitute' certainly reflects things that happened quite often in ancient legal systems, and so is quite a good image for some aspects of Atonement - but I'd suggest that in the NT it's not the primary imagery.

In the NT I'd see the primary image as one of debt - our sins have damaged God's creation, including other men and ourselves, and the root of sin is an attempt to kind of steal ourselves from God and make ourselves rulers in our lives. The damage this does needs to be paid for and we don't have the resources - so God forgives.
.

God inflicting such harm on an innocent third party would be wildly unjust, even if the third party volunteered, and also it wouldn't be true forgiveness, more like God demanding his 'pound of flesh' but not really caring who pays. This is why 'unitarianism' isn't, in Christian terms, a workable theology. But because God is in fact 'triune', it is God Himself who becomes incarnate in Jesus to foot the bill by SELF-sacrifice. God is Love, and this is how he shows it, in a way that challenges us to understand the situation and repent of the sins that have caused the death of Jesus....

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a strong feature of Moore College teaching and of other mainstream churches both here and the US. To my mind, it is totally incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity, and also with the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Martin 60: You come here to refine your Ptolemaic wooden orrery.
Love that word orrery, what does it mean?

LMGTFY
quote:

The big assumption here

Where? Please quote that big assumption by anyone on this thread, especially me.
quote:

is that God has not actually revealed anything about himself.

He's revealed everything we need in Jesus.
quote:

Let’s assume that ‘Ptolemy’ was correct, ie his cosmology was not in error, what then?

What then what?
quote:

The real Ptolemy was soundly refuted but you have not refuted anything you have rejected despite what you may think. God is God of the Bible.

Ceci n'est pas un Dieu. Infinitely less so than this is not a pipe.
He is only pictured by us in it, projecting ourselves, coming with all of our evolving enculturation since we started making up stories at least 80,000 years ago. Those stories get better and better, in Jonah, in Amos, in Joel. There are some sublime glimpses of the heart of the Father in Abraham and David of course, beyond our darkness projected in the looking glass. The visions of the prophets are full of sublime social justice. Which is why Jesus was able to use them.
quote:

If he is not

Which He isn't any more than any object in a story, let alone a fragmented Bronze-Iron Age one.
quote:

then we have no axioms about which to describe him he is at the mercy of human imagination.

As always, but not a savage Bronze Age one now.
quote:

However, I and folk like me do not necessarily use the Bible to create an iconoclastic and faulty systematic theology. It is definitely Biblical that God certainly has 2 sides but if we see him as judge we can also see him as Father, both are in there.

You necessarily do because of your assumption above. A judge who murders twenty million people in history and billions yet to come? What kind of Father is that?
quote:

Despite your eternal assertions that the rocks do not lie, you resist all possibility that there is more than one way to look at the rocks, that while many agree with you, huge numbers of people actually reject your assumptions. You persist in asserting that where you were, your so called cult, worshiped a ‘killer’ God, and that anyone with a conservative stance toward the Bible, must do likewise, hence your crusade.

There is no scientific basis for saying that the rocks lie. I couldn't care less on who believes what, that is no authority for me unless it is based on science. You reject science in favour of your Medo-Persian, flat, Ptolemaic cook book interpretation. Fine.
quote:

Perhaps I could point out that this web site is a small pool of clever people most of whom have set agendas, their own ‘Ptolemaic’ theologies and limited experiential knowledge of God. It is a happy place for people who mostly agree with each other. There’s nothing wrong with that of course.

In what way is a postmodern deconstruction of Bronze Age stories 'Ptolemaic'? In what way does it proliferate entities? The mere fact that it has to use the entity of deconstruction to destroy the myriad irreconcilable entities in the stories?
quote:

You have never answered or tried to answer questions or issues about post modernism preferring a polemic about the killer God.

You've not made any. None that stand out in the rhetoric. I'm happy to stand corrected.
quote:

I made a request of you which you have ignored.

Where?
quote:

Could I make this again? (still not cross.)

Make it for the first time? Please do. What is it?
quote:

No need to call me to hell and if you do I will ignore.

That's a shame. This needs clear air.
quote:

A view like yours which tries to reinvent what you walked away from, in an acceptable form, is not something I could see as a possibility.

I'm reinventing nothing. I'm getting to the truth as the rocks do. It's an analogous exercise. No you couldn't possibly.
quote:

quote:
Martin 60: You confirm the spiritualized temporary abrogation of God's killer instinct in Christ whom He killed instead of us in the ancient Egyptian scales of cosmic justice. Strictly God the Father only killed that once. Jesus did all the killing up to His incarnation and will do one hundred times as much at His return. What's the theology behind the mandatory pacifism that you must logically believe in since the Incarnation? Killing is now so holy since God killed His Son that only God can do it?
OK lets unpack. Do correct me if I misunderstand:
Christ was a real human guy not spiritualised.
There is no temporary abrogation. God's nature is consistent. What changes is the way he deals with us after Christ came.

That's inconsistent and requires a Ptolemaic epicycle or two.
quote:

God, according to the apostle John, is love.
There is nothing Egyptian about any of these concepts. The Hebrews’ thinking is not Egyptian. Your assertion here is not justified.

The concept of an afterlife where deeds are weighed in the balance is entirely pagan and the Hebrews had no option but to imbibe it, along with all earlier cultures, from the ancient Egyptians.
quote:

The concept of 'God as killer' is yours and your pejorative creation. God is creator of life, John’s gospel says of Jesus, ‘in him was life and that life was the light of man.’

Your Ptolemaic God delights in murder. He pejorates Himself. What has that got to do with Him being creator too? Just draw the necessary epicycle.
quote:

Pacifism has nothing to do with the case.

Which case?
quote:

The crucifixion was not about God Killing Jesus. This is not true according to scripture. Jesus voluntarily laid down his life. What the father did was accept this laying down of his perfect son as a sin offering. The reason for this was so that your[s] and my sin should be not charged to us.

We killed Jesus on God's behalf then. Somebody HAD to die after all. Well, that's one story.
quote:

quote:
Martin 60: Your God, Jamat, as was mine,
No, your discarded God is not mine. You have rejected what you think is a supernatural monstrosity. I think you are mistaken in that.

In what way?

--------------------
Love wins

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Despite your eternal assertions that the rocks do not lie, you resist all possibility that there is more than one way to look at the rocks, that while many agree with you, huge numbers of people actually reject your assumptions.

Fortunately, scientific truth is not determined by vote but by adherence to accepted scientific methods.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

Despite your eternal assertions that the rocks do not lie, you resist all possibility that there is more than one way to look at the rocks, that while many agree with you, huge numbers of people actually reject your assumptions.

If you are talking about an old versus a young earth, there really are no other ways to look at thousands of meters of sedimentary rock.

There are no mechanisms for this kind of rock being laid down quickly - that's just a fantasy.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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NO! God lied in the rock so that His Word be true!

--------------------
Love wins

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
NO! God lied in the rock so that His Word be true!

Which does rather rely on "His Word" being confined to ink on paper.

But, how could that be? His Word that commanded all things to be, that continues to command all things to be, contained in artefacts of human culture? That's like claiming God can be contained in a Temple of human construction.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which does rather rely on "His Word" being confined to ink on paper.

But, how could that be? His Word that commanded all things to be, that continues to command all things to be, contained in artefacts of human culture? That's like claiming God can be contained in a Temple of human construction.

The problem with that idea is that there is no meta-narrative or morality you can derive from nature.

It used to be a fashionable idea that one could learn from "God's word in nature", of course with a bit more research it turned out that if there was a final message in nature, it was nothing like the Hitch-hiker version.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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I believe we can. Awareness is becoming more complex.

--------------------
Love wins

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Steve Langton
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by Gee D

quote:
Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a strong feature of Moore College teaching and of other mainstream churches both here and the US. To my mind, it is totally incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity, and also with the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds.
If accepted as THE image of Atonement, I agree. But the idea of 'substitution' is common in ancient legal systems - more so than in the modern world - and sometimes that gives us a supplementary 'as if...' to illustrate the Atonement. Much less value than sometimes given it, but still of some use....

It probably won't surprise you that I feel the pre-eminence of PSA came about partially from looking at things a bit too much from the perspective of kings in 'Christian states' rather than ordinary people in debt....

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which does rather rely on "His Word" being confined to ink on paper.

But, how could that be? His Word that commanded all things to be, that continues to command all things to be, contained in artefacts of human culture? That's like claiming God can be contained in a Temple of human construction.

The problem with that idea is that there is no meta-narrative or morality you can derive from nature.
I never said anything about having to derive a meta-narrative or morality from nature.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:

It probably won't surprise you that I feel the pre-eminence of PSA came about partially from looking at things a bit too much from the perspective of kings in 'Christian states' rather than ordinary people in debt....

That sounds very unlikely given that the main proponents of PSA lived since the Reformation.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
NO! God lied in the rock so that His Word be true!

Which does rather rely on "His Word" being confined to ink on paper.

But, how could that be? His Word that commanded all things to be, that continues to command all things to be, contained in artefacts of human culture? That's like claiming God can be contained in a Temple of human construction.

NO! NO! And THRICE NO! The WORD is the word of the Word! How dare you suggest that the HOLY GOD HOLY BREATHED HOLY SACRED SCRIPTURES are constructed artefacts of human culture?!?

--------------------
Love wins

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
NO! NO! And THRICE NO!

That would be a total of five NO's, right?

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Martin60
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NOOO!! But yeah. But smartass. So 3 is 5? That explains EVERYTHING!

But that makes SEVEN!? And

[ 10. October 2016, 22:28: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

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Jamat
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@Martin 60:
I am sick of this particular game of whackamole.After this, I will not be repeating myself. It is obvious that we disagree..peace good Capulet!
quote:
Please quote that big assumption by anyone on this thread, especially me.
The continued use of ‘Ptolemaic’ suggests that any conservative theology is superseded by present knowledge. This assumption is disputed.
quote:
You necessarily do (create a faulty iconoclastic systematic theology) because of your assumption above. A judge who murders..
That is like saying the dispenser of justice or the one charged with pronouncing sentence, is guilty of the crime he pronounces sentence for. Not true.
quote:
There is no scientific basis for saying that the rocks lie. I couldn't care less on who believes what, that is no authority for me unless it is based on science.
You are reposing a lot of trust in Science then. Science is limited knowledge, a moving target. Your own precious evolutionary assumptions viz, that macro evolution occurred, are not proven, and untestable. Dinos are..how old? Why did Mary Schweitzer fine real blood in a T Rex bone? Dating methods? Why such variations and just using the dates that suit our assumptions? Scientists are humans who tenaciously cling to careers. Berlinski is amusing on this. The penalty for publicly doubting evolution is academic Siberia.
quote:
I'm reinventing nothing.
It seems to me you are. Jesus as a cuddle toy is not the Biblical Jesus
quote:
The concept of an afterlife where deeds are weighed in the balance is entirely pagan.
Very disputable. I’m reminded of the fate of Korah who went down alive to Sheol. The Jews did have a concept of afterlife that is very evident in the Psalms. To say they got it from paganism is to assert something unproven.
quote:
We killed Jesus on God's behalf then.
I think we would’ve but the text clearly says he released his own spirit before that happened. Roman hands crucified Jesus but crucifixion did not kill him. Interestingly no one is ever held accountable for the death of Jesus which is probably because he chose where and when to die.
quote:
I think you are mistaken in that.. In what way?
Because on balance he is far from the monster you caricature. I recently reread the creation story. Nature was very good, Man was provided for as were all living things. There is no need IMV to justify a being who reached out of eternity to provide an undeserved salvation to a humanity who pretty well all deserve judgement. John 3:16.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Steve Langton
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by mr cheesy;
quote:
That sounds very unlikely given that the main proponents of PSA lived since the Reformation.
And apart from the Anabaptists most of the Reformers carried on doing the 'Christian state' thing....
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Jamat
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In case interested:Berlinski

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
]You are reposing a lot of trust in Science then. Science is limited knowledge, a moving target. Your own precious evolutionary assumptions viz, that macro evolution occurred, are not proven, and untestable. Dinos are..how old? Why did Mary Schweitzer fine real blood in a T Rex bone? Dating methods? Why such variations and just using the dates that suit our assumptions? Scientists are humans who tenaciously cling to careers. Berlinski is amusing on this. The penalty for publicly doubting evolution is academic Siberia.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the depth of sedimentary rock. Hint: geology is not based on evolutionary theory. Try again.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

Originally posted by Jamat:
@Martin 60:
I am sick of this particular game of whackamole.[ ]After this, I will not be repeating myself. It is obvious that we disagree..peace good Capulet!

No you're not as you will continue to post incoherent rhetoric on this thread.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

quote:

Martin60: Please quote that big assumption by anyone on this thread, especially me.


quote:

Jamat: The continued use of ‘Ptolemaic’ suggests that any conservative theology is superseded by present knowledge.

How? What present knowledge?
quote:

Jamat: This assumption is disputed.

A straw one you just made up. How appropriate.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:

quote:
You necessarily do (create a faulty iconoclastic systematic theology) because of your assumption above. A judge who murders..

That is like saying the dispenser of justice or the one charged with pronouncing sentence, is guilty of the crime he pronounces sentence for. Not true.

Why are you quoting yourself as if it were me and then disagreeing with yourself?

And you are incorrect in your disagreement with yourself in so many ways this is starting to be amusing upon amusing and I'm afraid I'll start laughing all down my trouser leg.

Justice: I don't like my ant farm any more. I'll drown it after showing it a bucket.

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

quote:

There is no scientific basis for saying that the rocks lie. I couldn't care less on who believes what, that is no authority for me unless it is based on science.

You are reposing a lot of trust in Science then.

No less than you as you show below.
quote:

Science is limited knowledge, a moving target.

Correct.
quote:

Your own precious evolutionary assumptions viz, that macro evolution occurred, are not proven, and untestable.

The rocks can't lie.
quote:

Dinos are..how old?

Old.
quote:

Why did Mary Schweitzer fine real blood in a T Rex bone?

Science.
quote:

Dating methods?

What about them?
quote:

Why such variations

What variations?
quote:

and just using the dates that suit our assumptions?

What dates, what assumptions?
quote:

Scientists are humans who tenaciously cling to careers.

You gave up yours easily then?
quote:

Berlinski is amusing on this. The penalty for publicly doubting evolution is academic Siberia.

Rightfully so. It isn't funny when a scientist finally loses what's left of his broken his mind. Poor guy.

[ 11. October 2016, 10:20: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:

quote:

I'm reinventing nothing.

It seems to me you are.

Then you seem wrong.
quote:

Jesus as a cuddle toy is not the Biblical Jesus

Indeed not, just as He isn't the barely restrained genocidal maniac of all time who can taste it with the blood in His mouth, who can feel the rod of iron in His twitching hand.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
quote:
The concept of an afterlife where deeds are weighed in the balance is entirely pagan.
Very disputable.
How?
quote:
I’m reminded of the fate of Korah who went down alive to Sheol.
When your God ate him yes. Sorry what's that got to do with the afterlife?
quote:
The Jews did have a concept of afterlife that is very evident in the Psalms.
Which is what?
quote:
To say they got it from paganism is to assert something unproven.
It is to assert the obvious. Where else did Jews, Christians and Muslims ALL get the same idea from?

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
quote:
We killed Jesus on God's behalf then.
I think we would’ve but the text clearly says he released his own spirit before that happened.
It clearly shows no such thing.
quote:
Roman hands crucified Jesus but crucifixion did not kill him.
Yes obviously the spear thrust finished Him off.
quote:

Interestingly no one is ever held accountable for the death of Jesus which is probably because he chose where and when to die.

I thought you were?

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
quote:
I think you are mistaken in that.. In what way?
Because on balance he is far from the monster you caricature.
In what way is the ultimate murderer so far, yet alone yet to come a caricature by me? That's your God.
quote:
I recently reread the creation story. Nature was very good, Man was provided for as were all living things. There is no need IMV to justify a being who reached out of eternity to provide an undeserved salvation to a humanity who pretty well all deserve judgement. John 3:16.
No need to justify the greatest act of mass murder in all of myth let alone the vastly greater yet to come? Your view is noted.

--------------------
Love wins

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mr cheesy
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Martin, is there a reason why you think it necessary to post so many times before anyone else can get a word in edgeways?

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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Sorry, it's one reply in effect to one incoherent post by Jamat.

--------------------
Love wins

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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It seems that the Death of Darwinism hasn't died. I've taken the liberty of taking the dinosaur blood tangent over there.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

PANTS ON FIRE! It's the ROCKS that lie!

--------------------
Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

She found what shouldn't be there 80mill years later. Iron acts like formaldehyde? So what? If the argument is that iron could have done this then it is circular. Ie We KNOW how old, therefore blah blah. Findings are multiply confirmed since 2005. I'm sure she's right BTW but this is geologic time..quite a stretch.

Karl, I respect your view (ie the fact that you hold it not the content of it )and also those of other Christians who believe as you. To me evolution is denied by scripture besides being obvious bullshit and an emperor with no clothes.
I am not BTW, convinced or impressed by creationism as an 'ism'.

@Martin60. Tell it to the hand. I'm done.

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lilBuddha
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The bible is not a science book, nor was it meant to be. It is not a challenge to faith to accept this, but a weakness to reject it.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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One thing I find interesting about this particular mindset compared to others is how sticky it is and how it resists efforts to contextualise.

For example, I'm reading a novel where the main character is a Maasai living in the city. I don't know much about Maasai, but according to the novel they have a complex and well-developed mythical worldview including quite an odd (to our ears) Nativity-type birth narrative.

The character in the novel is depicted as being a bit torn by circumstance, but has obviously contextualised his upbringing - so he accepts the stories as being part of his identity without the rigid insistence that Ntemelua really did pop out of his mother's womb with full command of the language and then disappear up a cow's bottom to hide from bandits.

The details about the Maasai may be wrong, I have no idea. But I'm sure there is a truth here about how myths and traditions are held and contextualised in the face of other realities.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd add, btw, on the subject of Dinosaur blood, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer , that she didn't find blood in dinosaur bones. She found the remains of blood cells - proteins. This was surprising, but it wasn't (a) impossible according to the age of the animal, nor (b) blood, not, indeed (c) evidence against the commonly accepted period during which T. rex lived.

What it was, however was evidence for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs, as the sequenced proteins showed close links to those of extant birds.

That some creationist liars have chosen to try to tell you that Schweitzer's work somehow is a problem for mainstream science speaks volumes. You've been lied to by your creationist sources again Jamat - and if memory serves this is why you got your arse handed to you on a plate last time - you tried raising hoary old creationist canards. Why do you not see the pattern here? The lying professional Creationism machine is a lying bunch of lying liars who lie. Consistently, Repeatedly. Depressingly.

She found what shouldn't be there 80mill years later. Iron acts like formaldehyde? So what? If the argument is that iron could have done this then it is circular. Ie We KNOW how old, therefore blah blah. Findings are multiply confirmed since 2005. I'm sure she's right BTW but this is geologic time..quite a stretch.

Karl, I respect your view (ie the fact that you hold it not the content of it )and also those of other Christians who believe as you. To me evolution is denied by scripture besides being obvious bullshit and an emperor with no clothes.
I am not BTW, convinced or impressed by creationism as an 'ism'.

@Martin60. Tell it to the hand. I'm done.

You obviously aren't made, you're still here, the greatest scientist of the age using the greatest science text ever written for all time to disprove all subsequent false science.

The rocks don't lie.

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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You may be fearfully and wonderfully maDe, maTe ...

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The bible is not a science book, nor was it meant to be. It is not a challenge to faith to accept this, but a weakness to reject it.

[Overused] There is no room, no need for faith whatsoever with flat, cookbook, Ptolemaic woodenism.

The rocks don't lie.

[ 12. October 2016, 09:39: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The bible is not a science book, nor was it meant to be. It is not a challenge to faith to accept this, but a weakness to reject it.

I'm reminded of what Oscar Hammerstein had Anna tell the King of Siam: "Your Majesty, the Bible was not written by men of science, but by men of faith. It was their explanation of the miracle of creation, which is the same miracle—whether it took six days or many centuries."

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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So simple Nick, so simple. And to invert it destroys it. Creates tohu and bohu. Authors confusion.

--------------------
Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So simple Nick, so simple. And to invert it destroys it. Creates tohu and bohu. Authors confusion.

Sorry, but I have no clue what that means.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Nick Tamen

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Sorry for the double post, but I missed the edit window. I know what tohu and bohu are. I just can't quite grasp the point you're making.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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# 368

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The apology is mine Nick.

If we say "Your Majesty, the Bible was not written by men of science, but by men of faith inspired scientifically accurately, supernaturally by God who ran the movie in their, in fact his, Moses', head. It was not their, his explanation of the miracle of creation, which is not the same miracle—whether it took six days or many centuries.".

The elegance, the beauty, the simplicity is gone. Destroyed.

"waste and void," "formless and empty," or "chaos and desolation."

Such a mangled, weak, hostile narrative creates confusion. Fear.

God is not the author of that.

Any better?

--------------------
Love wins

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