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» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Dead Horses   » Cleft lip and palate a good reason? (Abortion) (Page 20)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Cleft lip and palate a good reason? (Abortion)
Aijalon
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quote:
The debate over personhood is clearly fascinating to some, but it seems pretty irrelevant to me. We don't question the personhood of soldiers or criminals and have no problem killing them.
This misses the point of the execution of criminals based on their actions - deeds being the marker of revoking state recognized personhood. It's an very red red herring.

Or are you saying personhood is always irrevocable?

I have always found it odd that extreem liberals stand for nearly unlimited abortions and also full prohibition of the death penalty at the same time. I cannot think of anything more inconsistent. There may be an explanation in the religion of State-ism. A fetus is not a state registered "person", therefore it is unrecognized and has no protection. Once you have a social security number registration, you are protected, and that somehow triggers the conscience of the Statist.

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
quote:
The debate over personhood is clearly fascinating to some, but it seems pretty irrelevant to me. We don't question the personhood of soldiers or criminals and have no problem killing them.
This misses the point of the execution of criminals based on their actions - deeds being the marker of revoking state recognized personhood. It's an very red red herring.

Or are you saying personhood is always irrevocable?...

Gee, I don't know, is it? Is it even relevant? I'm not sure whether you understood my point because you just restated it: societies and individuals kill people when we think we have a good reason to, not because they're no longer people. The abortion debate is a very specific situational debate over what's an acceptable reason for killing another human being.

If it's ok for a politician to order killing and maiming millions of soldiers and civilians to protect "our way of life", or "our freedoms" or whatever fucking cliché is in style today, why is it not ok for one woman to abort one baby to protect her family's way of life?

quote:
I have always found it odd that extreem [sic] liberals stand for nearly unlimited abortions and also full prohibition of the death penalty at the same time. I cannot think of anything more inconsistent.

And I've always found it odd that a book that says "thou shalt not kill" has so many chapters and verses telling people who to kill and how and when. I've also found it odd that while some readers of that book say abortion is murder, the book actually says that a cash payment to the father is sufficient compensation for an induced miscarriage.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5396 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
Or are you saying personhood is always irrevocable?

It has always been revocable. Don't delude yourself. There's a severely abridged bible which is read to force bringing pregnancy to term, but ignores post birth suffering. It is not acceptable to identify abortion as a sin and crime whilst ignoring all of the other. I see no effect of 'pro-life' attitudes on positive social policy and political goals to alleviate post-birth suffering. Rather the opposite. Profound disrespect and clear moves to increase suffering by cutting social welfare support, access to health and food, targeting the poor for law 'enforcement' yadda yadda.

quote:
I have always found it odd that extreem liberals stand for nearly unlimited abortions and also full prohibition of the death penalty at the same time.
This is one of the redder red herrings, which wants to compare execution to abortion. The correct consilience is access to social welfare and health benefits, including sexual health. If you want to prevent abortion, you provide proper family planning help and a full range of social supports, so that people have more responsible sex (preventing pregnancy), see their future lies in education and career versus making little humans. The social development index among countries is somewhat informative about this.

Just to be clear another issue, the legal side, NOT having an abortion law at all in Canada, and regulating it within health, has resulted in falling abortion rates, much less that in America. The teen abortion rate is 1/3 of the American rate in Canada, and the rate for all ages places the Canadian rate at 30% less. Supportive health care, including sexual health care (nonabortion) and social services make the difference.

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Brenda Clough
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Yes, the ineffectiveness and deliberate blindness of the US antiabortion movement forces one to conclude that they do not in fact care about babies. What they want is for you to be absolutely miserable if you have sex. Good to know.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
A fetus is not a state registered "person", therefore it is unrecognized and has no protection. Once you have a social security number registration, you are protected, and that somehow triggers the conscience of the Statist.

It is apperently satisfying to paint such a picture and demonise opposing viewpoints. But they are rarely accurate.
Canada doesn't regulate abortion, but they do support women in the health care system.
And has lower abortion rates than
America which regulates abortion, in some cases actively making them difficult and they do not support women in the health care system.

Pragmatically, then, which is more pro-life?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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sharkshooter

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# 1589

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If I was a cynic, I might amend to:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
A fetus is not a state registered "person", therefore it is unrecognized and has no protection. Once you have a social security number registration, you ...

pay taxes.

But, I'm not. So, I won't.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7751 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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