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Source: (consider it) Thread: Scientific Dating Methods and Counter Claims
itsarumdo
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# 18174

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I can see why his is in dead horses. That's a lot of posts. I stopped at the first page, and somehow y'all kept on going for another 10 pages [Overused] [Roll Eyes] [brick wall] [Killing me]

[ 21. September 2014, 10:03: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Martin60
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# 368

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You made it 10.

We are living proof that reason does not, cannot work. The only way to change people who insist on believing the wrong things is to be nice to them regardless.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
You made it 10.

We are living proof that reason does not, cannot work. The only way to change people who insist on believing the wrong things is to be nice to them regardless.

Ah, but what is love?

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
You made it 10.

We are living proof that reason does not, cannot work. The only way to change people who insist on believing the wrong things is to be nice to them regardless.

Ah, but what is love?
...anyway? Does anybody love anybody anyway?

[ 08. July 2015, 07:03: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Huia
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# 3473

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quote:
Does anybody love anybody anyway?

[Hot and Hormonal] Given that I clicked onto this thread with the idea that it was about scientific methods of choosing who to date [Hot and Hormonal] that question seemed particularly apt.

Huia - off to bed because my mind seems weirdly confused [Roll Eyes]

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Paul.
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# 37

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I think you have to be a child of the 80s* to get that one.

(*and possibly a Brit)

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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Well I Got that wrong.
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Shpatari
Apprentice
# 18448

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I hope you've all been following the developments at New Horizons. Pluto (with Charon) is proving to be a real Death Star for the billions of years and their various patches and fudges.

There seems to be no end to the astonishment of the scientists on the team as they note how amazingly young feature after feature of the binary system looks.

And as we stare and stare at a Texas-sized ice sheets without a single crater, even the age estimate of 100 million years stretches credulity to the limit.

No tidal or radioactive heating available to speak of: the heat driving all this geology, including amazing orogeny, is Pluto's own from its inception. Clearly, the dwarf planet isn't even a tiny fraction of the assumed age of 4.6 billion years.

Actually though, the signs of the youth of the solar system have been writ increasingly large since at least March 1979 with the astounding revelation of hypervolcanic Io.

Here's to giving this thread a new lease of life [Smile]

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lilBuddha
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Welcome Shpatari.
As you are a newbie, please understand that the following is not personal, nor is it meant to be unwelcoming.
But I don't see what you think you see when perusing the information sent back by New Horizons.
Nothing yet contradicts the calculated age of Pluto. The surface, yes, but not the planet itself.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Shpatari
Apprentice
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The 100 million years is the NH team's upper limit on the age of the Sputnik Planum. But as they also admit, for all they know it could have formed last week.

As for what's driving all the geology, they posit a substantial subsurface ocean. That would have to be an ocean of liquid water, under a surface whose temperature is barely 50K.

There is simply no way that such a small body could retain that much heat for such a long time as usually assumed.

Nobody expected any of this geological activity - they thought it would be an old, cold, highly cratered world looking rather like, say, Callisto.

And as I indicated, this is just the icing on the cake of a whole series of discoveries by the space probes of the past 40 years which all point to the same broad conclusion for a range of outer solar system objects: nowhere near billions of years old.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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If the planetary model is a cake, the icing is the first thing we discover, not the last. And, as far as Pluto is concerned, we are just discerning the flavour of the icing, we still do not know its recipe. Nor what cake might lie beneath.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Shpatari:
As for what's driving all the geology, they posit a substantial subsurface ocean. That would have to be an ocean of liquid water, under a surface whose temperature is barely 50K.

Who mentioned liquid water? An ocean doesn't need to be water.

Pluto has certainly produced some surprises, but so too have most of the planets, asteroids, comets and other objects we've sent probes too. Certainly no one expected an active world with glaciers (of nitrogen, carbon monoxide and methane ices), an atmosphere (mostly methane and other simple organic gases produced by the breakdown of methane) and young surfaces. Everyone was expecting a rocky planet, not one with a substantial quantity of hydrocarbons, nitrogen and other frozen gases. The activity would need a heat source, and it's unclear what that would be at present. There could be a greater concentration of primordial radionuclides in the outer solar system, but New Horizons doesn't carry instruments to test that. Charon is big moon (relative to the size of Pluto) and that would create some tidal heating.

The data will refine our understanding of the details of the outer solar system. There's nothing that contradicts the big picture.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Barnabas62
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Alan, isn't there some kind of dynamic relationship between planetary cores, magnetic fields and stored potential (and released) energy levels?

I reread the Wiki article on planetary cores and (vaguely) remember reading something (New Scientist?) about the complexities involved in this. At any rate, planetary core science looks pretty complex to me!

Clearly there is something going on internally which is currently generating a lot of heat but I'm pretty sure one cannot assert that the process of internal generation gives a definite picture about the age of the planet.

[ 31. July 2015, 09:22: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doc Tor
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I'd be tempted at this point to say that the lack of surface craters is due to the sublimation and redeposition of ices. If there's any sort of weather on Pluto, then it will inevitably involve the boiling off of gases on the day side and refreezing them on the night side.

Also: how many craters did we expect there to be on a body of this size, this far out? Pluto will be part of the answer to that question, rather than an anomaly.

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Forward the New Republic

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Pluto clearly has an atmosphere, and hence weather. That must affect the persistence of visible craters on the surface.

I don't have time to look up the data, but New Horizons collected photos of Charon as well. Without an atmosphere and even less heat generating potential Charon should retain craters. That should be able to answer the question of whether impacts are more, or less, frequent in the outer solar system. And, hence, whether the relative lack of craters on Pluto is because there are less impacts or if they get erased by geological activity and weathering.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Doc Tor
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# 9748

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A first glance here shows some cratering, and a differentiation in the ages of some of the surfaces.

It isn't cratered to fuck (technical term), and from what I've read, I'd expect much heavier cratering in the inner solar system than the outer. Mercury is essentially overlapping craters.

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Forward the New Republic

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Pluto clearly has an atmosphere, and hence weather. That must affect the persistence of visible craters on the surface.

I don't have time to look up the data, but New Horizons collected photos of Charon as well. Without an atmosphere and even less heat generating potential Charon should retain craters. That should be able to answer the question of whether impacts are more, or less, frequent in the outer solar system. And, hence, whether the relative lack of craters on Pluto is because there are less impacts or if they get erased by geological activity and weathering.

There is some theorization that the spot on Charon's pole is the residue of some of Pluto's escaping atmosphere that was captured by the moon. Not enough gravity to retain its own atmosphere, but enough to retain anything that freezes/sublimates during escape.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
M.
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# 3291

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Tangent - Croesos, I read your post before last as saying that ' a first glance here shows some catering...' which really did seem like a game changer!

M.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Tangent - Croesos, I read your post before last as saying that ' a first glance here shows some catering...' which really did seem like a game changer!

M.

That was actually Doc Tor. I know the resemblance can be confusing.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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M.
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Ooops, sorry to both.

M.

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Doc Tor
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[Big Grin]

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Forward the New Republic

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Gopperrevs: If you were finally persuaded that a young earth is false, and that humans were created through some evolutionary process, and the house of cards did come down, and you rejected Christianity (which is what you have said would happen). Would you suddenly stop being a sinner?

The first chapters of Genesis don't tell us how all this came about. They tell us how it is. They crystalize our understanding of our condition.

I've heard before the "no historical fall, no need for a historical Jesus" line, and I think it's rubbish. Because, I don't believe in a historical fall, but I sure has hell still need Jesus.

An answer and 2 questions:

Yes. There would be no basis for a concept of sin.

Q1. How in your view does Genesis help us to understand our condition?

Q2. Why do you need Jesus given that his world view is anachronistic?

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mousethief

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# 953

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I'm not Gopperrevs but I'll give my answers.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat
Q1. How in your view does Genesis help us to understand our condition?

It tells us we are sinners and sin separates us from God.

quote:
Q2. Why do you need Jesus given that his world view is anachronistic?
I don't need him for his world view, I need him for his death on the Cross.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Wow, the length of time between replies exceeds the biblical time scale for the universe, no further proof needed.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Wow, the length of time between replies exceeds the biblical time scale for the universe, no further proof needed.

[Killing me]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Jamat, Archbisop Ussher, the man who worked out the 4004 BC creation date for the universe, was very precise in his calculations. Not just the year, but to Sunday 23 October with the necessary machinery being set in motion for the preliminaries at about 6pm the previous day. 2 questions:

1, That necessarily involves some work on the Sabbath, when He rested. Did He break one of his own rules?

2. As there was no time until the creation, how could there be such precision about the preliminaries?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Own up. Who read the Necronomicon backwards?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Jamat, Archbisop Ussher, the man who worked out the 4004 BC creation date for the universe, was very precise in his calculations. Not just the year, but to Sunday 23 October with the necessary machinery being set in motion for the preliminaries at about 6pm the previous day. 2 questions:

1, That necessarily involves some work on the Sabbath, when He rested. Did He break one of his own rules?

2. As there was no time until the creation, how could there be such precision about the preliminaries?

The Sabbath is from our Friday sunset till Saturday sunset so as long as 6pm is after sunset on that day everything is fine. Ussher presumably saw God doing a 24 hour work day; no wonder he needed a rest after 6 days.

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spinner of webs

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Gee D
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# 13815

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But no day or night until the first day, following thw creation of light.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Clearly there is something going on internally which is currently generating a lot of heat but I'm pretty sure one cannot assert that the process of internal generation gives a definite picture about the age of the planet.

I had a whimsical thought, based on both the comment on Pluto's heat and the theory that Jupiter might be a failed star/brown dwarf.

If a star can become Jupiter, something we usually consider a planet, could a planet become a star?

Ok, that's weird. But I plugged the question into Ask.com, and found that other people had been wondering about it on various science sites. Most of the replies on those sites were wayyy over my head, but I skimmed several of the sites. (BTW, I didn't see anyone make fun of the questioner or the idea, which was pretty cool.)

It seems like most of the answers are basically "no, unless a series of complicated circumstances made the planet extremely hot".

So maybe Pluto doesn't have much chance of becoming a star, despite its increasing heat. But, given the furor over whether it's even a planet, wouldn't it be cool if it did become a star?

Kindly neither laugh at me nor throw things at me.
[Biased]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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Pluto can't become a star because it doesn't have close to enough mass - there is a minimum threshold for the fusion reaction to be self-sustaining - and likely doesn't have the right elemental composition even if it did.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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When people talk about heat being generated in Pluto (or any other planet), they mean enough heat to raise the surface temperature by a few degrees. For a body to become a star its core temperature has to reach several million degrees. It also has to be made mostly of hydrogen, which Pluto isn't (though Jupiter is).

The mechanism goes something like this. You start off with a lose cloud of mostly-hydrogen. Random movements within the cloud means that "clumps" (still very diffuse clumps) begin to form. Gravity begins to have an effect, and the clumps of mostly-hydrogen start moving together. After a long time, you begin to get a more or less spherical cloud of mostly-hydrogen within the larger, more diffuse cloud. Gravity makes this spherical cloud begin to collapse in on itself. The effect of that is that the closer you get to the centre of the spherical cloud, the more the hydrogen is under pressure. Gas coming under pressure gets hot. At this point, broadly two things can happen. The cloud continues to collapse in on itself under gravity, gets warm or quite hot, and that's that. Alternatively, if the core gets very hot, the hydrogen ions at the centre start to undergo nuclear fusion, turning into helium and a few other subatomic bits and bobs. So there are now lots of little nuclear explosions providing and outward force that counteracts the inward force of gravity. If an equilibrium between these forces is reached, then the balance between inward gravity and outward nuclear explosions can be maintained for millions or billions of years, and you have a star.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Arethosemyfeet and Adeodatus--

Many thanks! And Adeodatus, your explanation was especially clear. So "Pluto's heating up" means just a few degrees, and not the needed nuclear explosions. (There was mention of the latter on the sites I checked; but I was afraid I'd say it wrongly, so I didn't mention it.)

Thanks again.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
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# 30

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bump

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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